Noam Chomsky: Modern universities designed to ‘deprive you of your freedom’

[xchrom]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/29/chomsky-modern-universities-designed-to-deprive-you-of-your-freedom/



The World Innovation Summit for Education (WISE) released an interview with Noam Chomsky recently in which the noted linguist discussed, among other things, how high student tuition indoctrinates students into corporate culture.

“There’s no economic basis for high tuitions,” Chomsky said. “One of the very negative aspects of this sharp tuition rise is that it entraps students. It deprives them of their freedom.”

Chomsky explained that “if you’re going to come out of college with $50,000 of debt, you’re stuck. You couldn’t do the things you wanted to do, like maybe you wanted to become a public interest lawyer, helping poor people. You can’t do it — you have to go to a corporate law firm, pay off your debt. Then you get trapped in that.”

“In fact,” he continued, “one of the main effects of the sharp increase in tuition is just indoctrination and control.”

[marmar]

1. Haven't read it yet. Didn't need to for the K/R.

It's Professor Chomsky.

[xchrom]

3. ...

[go west young man]

18. Ditto.

[Laelth]

2. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[bemildred]

4. Another public service turned into a money making racket. nt

[polichick]

25. True - and so many kids are trapped from day one.

[bemildred]

26. Yep, debt slavery from day one. What a sendoff in life, eh? nt

[polichick]

27. To think that's part of someone's plan is just disturbing - how evil!

[JNelson6563]

5. He's right.

I can't believe that one has to start out adult life with a giant weight around the neck these days. It's sickening.

Julie

[vaberella]

6. Now you get this Chomsky?! The man who works for one of the most OVERPRICED schools in the nation.

My cousin went to MIT almost 20 years ago and she recently finished paying off her debt.

[MADem]

30. First thing that crossed my mind as well....! Do as I say, not as I do... nt

[Maedhros]

39. Yeah? And just who do you work for that makes your hands so damned clean?

Careful up there on that high horse - it's a hell of a fall back down.

[wickerwoman]

42. That's kind of irrelevant.

I'm not talking about how the organisation I work for enslaves people into debt while pretending I don't draw an enormous salary from that same organistion.

Yes tuition is too high but at least part of that is because universities are competing for "rock star" professors in their field including people like Noam Chomsky. I didn't notice him prefacing his critique by offering a reduction in his own salary.

[Maedhros]

44. Do you have anything constructive to post that refutes Professor Chomsky's point,

or would you rather continue attacking his character?

I dare say that Professor Chomsky has earned his salary, and the fact that he chooses to criticize the very same institution of higher learning of which he is a part speaks to his integrity rather than against it.

[wickerwoman]

49. I don't disagree with his point.

I just don't think he's the best person to make it. If he thinks he is part of a system that is enslaving young people to debt then he needs to get out of that system before he can critique it. Anything else is hypocrisy. It's like me decrying factory farming while I chow down on a steak. I may have earned that steak and I may enjoy it, but I don't get to bitch about the harm it's causing while I'm in the middle of participating in it.

It's like saying Carmella Soprano had integrity for staying in her marriage because she was trying to change Tony and she really earned all that stuff by putting up with his shit.

[aikoaiko]

53. It's hard not to see him as a hypocrit since he benefited from living off of...

...high tuition. That tuition paid for his low teaching load, GAs, sabbaticals, and research supplies/resources.

If universities are depriving young people their freedom, then he was/ is too.

[Maedhros]

55. I don't think so, but maybe Chomsky is a hypocrite.

So what? His argument is valid - that is what is important. What kind of clothes he wears, his salary or that stupid thing he may have said in 1973 are all irrelevant.

[vaberella]

62. I work for the NY DOE, as a public school teacher.

Not much money there when I don't even have a text book. I also went to a City University. Just so you know...so yeah...my hands are damned clean.

[Maedhros]

64. What I don't get

is the need to attack Chomsky for his supposed hypocrisy. What he is saying about higher education is spot on, what good does it do to jump into the thread and sneer at him? Does doing so somehow feed your self esteem, by placing yourself above Chomsky on some sort of liberal purity meter?

[vaberella]

65. Actually... my issue is what took him so long?

Last edited Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Krugman has been talking about the price of education for years. What is he saying that is so spot on? Just regurgitating a fact we know and not doing a damn thing to change the system. Personally, he's just talking for some sort of relevancy that he absolutely doesn't need, nor is it some revelation that makes you take a second look at the system.

As for liberal purity meter...you asked about it, I clarified a point because you seem to make me out to be some pretentious elitist. Obviously I am not. As for "jump into the thread and sneer at him" I didn't realize this was a private thread, secondly...I didn't realize he had some sort of protector I had to answer too.

You don't like what I say...ignore it. However, your statement is pointless to me and childish pettiness. I don't see anything serious in what he's saying because it has been a topic on this board since its inception. Chomsky is 13 years LATE to this parade. But then he's made his money from these overpriced schools and books.

[Maedhros]

71. I'm not defending Chomsky, per se.

And he hardly needs me to - his accomplishments speak for themselves.

However it seems in vogue for a number of DU posters to show up in threads to do nothing else but post empty, vapid criticisms of public figures. When I see that behavior I call it out.

[vaberella]

72. If that is how you interpret my post then so be it.

I am not a n00b on this board, nor do I consider myself empty or vapid, to make empty, vapid criticisms. My statement is an observation. You may put his statement on some sort of pedestal and I am wondering where does he plan on going with this. Obviously no where since he benefits and has been benefiting greatly from the very institutionalized system he currently seems to be "sneering". That is not important to me. Can he provide steps to end that? He is a pubic figure as you say...maybe he could take some revolutionary steps...maybe open a free school under his name or something. However, I am getting a statement that is in no way revolutionary or really discussion worthy from him because it is in discussion as we speak. I would sooner find it more relevant coming out of the mouth of a Republican since they seem there is nothing wrong with anything...except Obama anything.

[nomorenomore08]

43. My maternal grandfather grew up very poor during the Depression but earned a PhD in physics

from MIT. No way in hell would he be able to do that today, even with scholarships plus part-time jobs. Or at the least, he'd have been sacrificing a good chunk of his future salary to pay down his loan debts, rather than sending 4 of 5 kids to college - which would also be damn near impossible nowadays, compared with the 70's.

[vaberella]

63. Exactly my point.

Education is a RIGHT. It shouldn't be charged. I'm just saying or at least a portion should be payed by the state for all schools. I don't believe in these private schools.

[Enthusiast]

7. Kicked and recommended a substantial amount.....nt

[Archae]

8. Outside of MIT and the Bible "universities," what do you hear about colleges?

Their sports teams.
Especially football.

Academia is being shut out.

[walkingman]

9. We're exceptional

alright - exceptionally ignorant. All of these stupid things we now see ourselves faced with did not happen overnight. They are the direct result of letting others think for us (drinking the koolaid).

Greed, debt, environmental catastrophe, privacy, wars for no reason are all examples of letting someone else tell them how to think.

Support the troops, supporting the poor, Supporting the guns, war on women, corporate greed, and on and on are the result of either ignorance or complacency. We talk about "change" but I don't see any real effort to change anything.

Peace

[watoos]

12. It's the fluoridated water.

[Maraya1969]

14. Welcome to DU walkingman!

[go west young man]

19. Nice post.

Welcome to DU.

[niyad]

10. k and r

"default the student loan" documentary and commentary:

https://www.facebook.com/DefaultMovie/posts/199974876762156

[daleanime]

11. K&R....

[Saviolo]

13. Got to hear him speak, once

... on issues of social justice. A real treasure.

And even at a live speaking engagement, someone tried to stand up and ask him some ridiculous "gotcha" question about how he said he doesn't believe in evolution. The entire audience groaned, rolled their eyes, then watched Mr. Chomsky destroy the pissant questioner with quotations of his own.

[Sheri]

15. chomsky is on target, again. k n r. nt

[aikoaiko]

16. Hoes does he reconcile his views with working for an expensive universities?

[nomorenomore08]

45. He has to make a living some kind of way, I guess...

[dlwickham]

51. how much has he given back to help his students

if he's so against higher costs in education, what has he done to help his students other that make speeches

[vaberella]

66. Amen...that's what I would like to know.

As my cousin was a student at his school and was still paying loans until recently. Not much.

[dlwickham]

74. I'm tired of people only talking about issues

get off your ass and do what you can to make it better

[Mass]

17. Good to hear. Unfortunately even state schools and colleges are prohibitive these days, particularly

for students that are not commuters. Even community colleges in MA are way too expensive.

This has to do with the fact the government does not invest enough in higher education and relies too much on student loans. Time to change this.

And yes, I know Chomsky (and Liz Warren for the matter) teach (used to teach) in very expensive universities. The problem is that THERE IS NO INEXPENSIVE UNIVERSITIES. At least not in New England. My oldest went to UMass and ended up with $15,000 in debt (less than his classmates who averaged $25,000). He is now in France finishing a master that cost him virtually nothing (double citizenship). My youngest is a sophomore and will end up with the same amount if he goes for the four years, in a state college in RI.

So, Chomsky is correct. Prices need to get lower. Not only for Ivy League colleges, but for EVERY college in the country.

[Marrah_G]

48. His daughter teaches at Salem State

Even state colleges cost a fortune, especially if you live in the dorms.

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Dreamer Tatum: Noam Chomsky is a whiny bore nt

[nomorenomore08]

46. So you think exorbitant tuition *hasn't* become an important societal issue?

[freedom fighter jh]

21. Yes. High school senior, consider an alternative.

Community college can help you get a good education and save a lot of money.

I teach at a community college in a state that has an excellent state college system, so excellent that students from all over the country, and even some from abroad, compete for admission. I felt fortunate to see my daughter accepted to the system's flagship school, even with her straight A high school average.

I can't speak for other places, but in my area of Virginia the community colleges have transfer agreements with four-year colleges, mostly public but also some private. These agreements provide for automatic admissions to students who maintain a good academic record at the community college. What's a good academic record? I don't remember all the details, and it probably varies from one four-year college to another, but the main points for admission to the University of Virginia are that you have to take certain courses, maintain a B average, and get at least a B in English. It is much, much easier to meet this standard at community college than it is to maintain the straight A average you need to get accepted there from high school.

You may be able to save a great deal of money by starting at community college, especially if your parents are able and willing to have you live with them. Besides saving on housing, you will probably save on tuition.

Is there a price to pay? Frankly, yes. It's easy to form friendships in a place like a four-year college, where everyone is new at the same time and everyone is living with the same new challenges. On the other hand, community college students are often dealing with many responsibilities besides school: Many are parents of small children; many are working, some at more than one job. Not all these people are in the market for new friendships. And if you were a whiz in high school and the community college in your area is small, the community college may not have enough advanced courses in your field to keep you challenged. (But then again it may. Don't assume. Check it out.)

People like to snicker at community college. I know I did before I came to teach at one. But the education there can be first rate.

It is the 4-year college that grants you your bachelor's degree in the end. That is the college name that you write on your resume.

Community college may be your ticket out of the trap that Dr. Chomsky describes.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

54. Community colleges are built to teach ...

Very few community college instructors - even those working toward a tenured position - have to publish or research. They are there to teach and serve on college committees which deal with the business of the college, which is teaching students.

Community colleges don't get research grants and don't have the deep pocket donors to academic programs that (some) four-year schools have, so they are for the most part dependent on two sources of money to operate: state funding and tuition. State funding has been in decline the past 30 years (a never discussed major reason for tuition increases, even Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone left this out of his recent piece on student debt). So, tuition needs to go up to offset the loss of state money.

Community colleges tend to have very good teachers because they have to - they are dealing with a much wider variety of student backgrounds and skills plus they need the tuition dollar even more than the four-year schools who have more than two legs to their funding chairs.

Most people would be surprised how good teaching is at the community college level in the U.S.

If a four-year-degree is your goal, look into community colleges as an option for part of the education. And be sure to check transfer agreements - even within public schools in the same college system, credit transfers may be tricky and dependent on a department head (always get it in writing, with a signature).

[freedom fighter jh]

56. I think you clarified a point on which I was vague.

I was assuming in my post (the one you replied to) that after 2 years at community college students would transfer to a 4-year college and graduate from there with a bachelor's degree.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

57. Oh, no ... I was agreeing. You were clear.

I know far too much about technical colleges, community colleges and four-year schools (public and private).

All have strengths, for sure. But the actual teaching I see at community and technical colleges is very good. More people need to know about that and consider it.

[reACTIONary]

22. The average starting salery...

... The overall average starting salary for Class of 2013 new college graduates currently stands at $45,327, an increase of 2.4 percent over the reported average of $44,259 for Class of 2012 graduates, according to the September 2013 NACE Salary Survey

Given that, $50K in debt doesn't sound all that onerous to me. The idea that getting a job and doing something economically useful after graduating is somehow an unreasonable deprivation of personal freedom doesn't seem justified to me. Nor do I don't think it is all that hard to combine "economically useful" and "socially beneficial".

I'd like to see opportunities for young folks to be broadened, and the expense of a college education to be reduced. I do see a good deal of room for improvement, but not a terrible injustice.

[caraher]

24. The NACE numbers don't jibe with what I see happen with new graduates

The biggest problem with the NACE figures seems to be that they reflect not all graduates, but the salaries of those graduates who do receive offers of full-time employment in their respective fields, and not the many who work part-time, go into internships, or settle for other jobs to pay the rent. My own son, with a BSME from a top school and a year of graduate study under his belt, was receiving substantially lower offers for engineering jobs, and recently accepted an offer in line with NACE numbers with a company known for paying exceptionally well for people with high potential but little experience. Even so, getting established financially has been tricky for him - and we made sure he graduated debt-free!

Moreover, it's not as though debt in the amount of a year's salary can be paid off in a year or even 3. Interest accumulates the whole time, and meanwhile one must pay rent, buy food, etc. - and the salary is not your take-home pay, either. $50k in debt paid out over 10 years costs the borrower a lot more than $50k, and extends the time before they're really capable of buying a home, investing in their own business, etc. It has an outsize effect on what creative young people can do, solely for the benefit of banks.

[reACTIONary]

33. Here is an independent collaborating report...

... that lists starting salaries by school - they don't give the number of graduates, so it can't be used to calculate a mean, but if you scan the list it broadly coincides with the NACE figures.

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/full-list-of-schools

According to the NACE "executive summary" "Data contained in the NACE Salary Survey are produced through a compilation of data derived from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the Census Bureau, and a master data set developed by Job Search Intelligence.... [using] employer-based data from approximately 400,000 employers; gathered from government and other sources, the data are actual starting salaries, not offers."

http://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/downloads/executive-summary/2013-september-salary-survey-executive-summary.pdf?mainindex-recslide1-salsvexsum-09132013

I'm glad your son isn't burdened by debt and received a good offer substantially in line with what NACE is reporting.

I personally don't find it objectionable that young college graduates, who are almost by definition destined to be in the better off population segment and are starting out better off than their less educated peers, have to put in a little sweat equity as pay back for their leg up.

[Romulox]

29. What's the *median*, college boy?

[reACTIONary]

32. In a normal distribution...

...the same as the average.

(BTW, Some of us are college GIRLS.)

[Romulox]

34. LOL. "Normal distribution" my eye.

The Gini coefficient amounts to a kind of percentage and can run from 0 to 100. A Gini of 0 represents 0 percent concentration in a country’s income distribution. In a country with a Gini coefficient of 0, everyone receives exactly the same income.
A Gini coefficient of 100 represents 100 percent concentration in a country’s income distribution. In a country with a Gini of 100, one person receives all of the country’s income. Everyone else gets nothing.


In between 0 and 100, Gini coefficients are harder to interpret. A Gini coefficient of 50 represents 50 percent concentration in a country’s income distribution. What does it mean to have 50 percent concentration in a country’s income?

A Gini of 50 could mean that half the people share all of the income while the other half get nothing. In other words, a country that literally consisted of haves and have-nots in a 50-50 split would have a Gini coefficient of 50.

This scenario, of course, isn’t very realistic. Everyone, no matter how poor, has to have some income to live. There are no literal have-nots.

We could also have a Gini coefficient of 50 with the top 10 percent of a country’s population very well-off, the next 50 percent more or less equal, and the bottom 40 percent very poor.

With some fiddling around the edges, that’s more or less the situation in America today.

According to the Census Bureau, the official Gini coefficient for the United States was 46.9 in 2010, the most recent year with data available. This is way up from the all-time low of 38.6 set in 1968.
- See more at: http://inequality.org/unequal-americas-income-distribution/#sthash.uql38duV.dpuf

[reACTIONary]

36. I don't think you are on point...

... the statistic I was referring to is the starting salary of recent college graduates, not the income distribution of the nation as a whole. Starting salary is relevant to the issue of the debt burden carried by that population, which is why I brought it up. It seems reasonable that this population characteristic would follow a normal distribution.

The information you provided about the Gini coefficient is pretty interesting. I'm going to read thru the link.

[Romulox]

52. There is not a "normal distribution" of wealth in America. Nor is "median" and "average" the same.

Your "point" is simply incorrect, as there is no evidence for a so-called "normal distribution" of wealth amongst recent college graduates.

Simply put, you are wrong, and your dissembling doesn't help.

[reACTIONary]

61. The distribution of wealth amoungst Americans...

... or amongst recent college graduates, whatever it might be, just isn't relevant to the statistic I quoted or to the issue of student loans being discussed.

The starting salaries of recent college graduates is unlikely to be highly correlated with their family's wealth. A potential employer doesn't ask you how much you have in the bank, or how much your daddy has in the bank... she wants to know what your degree is and what your grade point average is. In general, if you have about the same degree as a rich kid does, and you have about the same grade point average that a rich kid does, you are going to get just about the same starting salary as the rich kid does. There is a bias based on a school's reputation, which may work in favor of some rich kids, but the truth is that this is a small part of the over-all student population and they don't take out student loans anyway.

The fact is that recent graduates can generally expect to land a job paying $44K or so, and that if they took out a student loan their debt amounts to about $50K. In my opinion, a debt of about $50K doesn't constitute an unreasonable, unjust burden for someone with an annual salary of $44K.

[hughee99]

23. ...Says the tenured MIT professor whose own school costs $42k per year,

not including about $12K room and board and another $2k for books.

[Uncle Joe]

28. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, xchrom.

[msanthrope]

31. Says the tenured MIT prof? nt

[Iris]

50. at least he's protected enough to say it n/t

[llmart]

35. My prediction....

student loan debt will be the next mortgage crisis.

[SheilaT]

37. I have been telling people for nearly twenty years now

not to incur huge student debt.

In about 1977 or so I had a conversation with a woman who was bitterly regretting her student debt. She said that if she could do it over again she would not borrow anything until at least her junior year and would borrow far less than she did. The conversation was long enough ago that I'm not certain of the specifics, but I'm thinking she had about $3,000 in student loans. According to an on-line inflation calculator that would be nearly $12k today.

That conversation stayed with me. A few years later when I was thinking about quitting my job and going to school full time, I looked very carefully at what I might need to borrow, and I didn't quit the job.

I tell young people to start at the local junior college. The main drawback to this is that there's no real campus life, which sucks, but getting through school with minimal debt is more important. If you ask me, which not many people do.

I also tell young people that they should go ahead and major in what they love, or want to major in, but never lose sight of the fact that in the end they need to be able to earn a living.

My younger son called me up at the beginning of his sophomore year of college to tell me he'd decided to major in Psychology. "It's what college kids do when they don't know what they want to major in," he told me. Fine, I said, but choose a minor in some sort of business area. He did marketing. Wow, I thought, that's a powerful combination. And it was, I'm still convinced.

After college he went back to pizza delivery, which is what he did summers while in college. Sigh. He's still delivering pizza four years later. The important thing is that he's not asking me for money, because he knows I'd tell him to get a better job. But he's actually quite happy, because he has some control over his hours of work, and in his spare time he plays ultimate frisbee and does stand-up comedy. And he has no student debt. That's important.

[RoccoRyg]

38. I just paid off my student loans...

after four years since getting my Masters.

I ended up with about $4,000 in debt thanks to my parents enrolling me in the College Illinois plan, one year at a community college, working and saving since I was fifteen and some full-ride scholarships I earned. I just paid them all off this month with about $700 in interest.

I'm not bragging, I'm just saying college can be affordable in many cases given a great deal of planning and preparation.

[vaberella]

67. How many of our kids in America get that?

I teach newcomer ELL's...most of my newcomers are planning on joining the military not only for education but also for citizenship. Let me tell you, you are one of the very few. Not to mention, we're talking about extremely over priced schools. I don't know what school you went too, nor do I presume to know. But I know schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and so on are not accessible for my students---EVER. And if they are the best...they should provide programs in place to make education accessible to all. Not to an elite few.

[philosslayer]

40. It deprives them of their freedom"

“There’s no economic basis for high tuitions,” Chomsky said. “One of the very negative aspects of this sharp tuition rise is that it entraps students. It deprives them of their freedom.”

Debt = Deprivation of Freedom? Hyperbolic nonsense. Ask Martin Bashir.

[Fumesucker]

47. St Peter don't you call me because I can't go

I owe my soul to the Company Store

[Lugnut]

41. My sister was in her 40s and was a college student.

She told me how much her books cost and I was blown away. I asked her why they charge that much and she said. "Because they can.".

[nolabels]

58. So when he shows up at the job what his excuse then?

Most everything i have learned i paid for when it got it, it's called the school of hard knocks.

So has he retired yet?

Personally i think that his reasoning is overrated and it seems disjointed to me for a guy like that to wait for all those years to be finally calling it out for what it is.

[Silent3]

59. I agree with a lot here except the word "designed".

The problems Chomsky is describing are very real consequences of the insane, unwarranted, way-above-inflation tuition increases we've seen over the past couple of decades.

There are likely, however, plenty of complex reasons that need to be considered before anyone leaps to the conclusion, implied by the word "designed", that some nefarious cabal behind the scenes twirled their collective mustaches and decided to infiltrate a vast network of educational institutions, reaching out with their long tentacles to raise tuition everywhere with the express goal of (bwahahahaha!) depriving students of their freedom.

I don't see the word "designed" coming from Chomsky's pen or Chompsky's lips in the text of this article, so its use may well be a gratuitous liberty taken by the author of the quoted article.

[lonestarnot]

68. Sorry Noam, but I didn't need to hear from you on that.

[Jefferson23]

69. We have so much to fix, it's overwhelming.

K&R for Chomsky

[Vattel]

70. I don't see how high tuition leads to "indoctrination."

And why does he say that there's no economic basis for high tuition? That seems obviously false, but maybe I don't understand what he is trying to say.

[hfojvt]

73. my memory only goes back to perhaps 1972

but it seems to me that even then the whole purpose of college was - to get the corporate payola.

and his analogy does not make any sense. Not unless the debt is much higher.

For example, the entry level median salary for a public defender is $47,000 http://www.nalp.org/sept2010pubintsal

The median starting salary at a small law firm is $80,000.

Chomsky claims that somebody with $50,000 in debt is trapped, poor fella, in that higher paying job because of his/her debt. That if they did not have the debt, they'd really rather have that $47,000 job.

But clearly, if they are willing to live on $47,000 a year and they are making $80,000 a year, then they can pay off $50,000 in debt in a mere two years and then go follow their heart's desire.

It really sounds like a fake complaint from a rich lawyer who feels guilty about being a corporate hired gun. They like to pretend "gosh, I'd really like to be helping people, but I can't because of all my debt."