If porn is a legitimate means of commercial activity, how do its fans feel about regulating it?

[geek tragedy]

Let's just assume, arguendo, that its production is no more or less respectable than working at McDonald's or practicing law or assembling automobile components. No shame, no moral judgments, just any old economic activity for $$.

In that case, is there a rational argument against regulations designed to protect workers' health?

For instance, mandatory condom usage to protect them against exposure to disease, including HIV.

How did this pro-freedom, liberal industry respond when local jurisdictions passes measures to protect workers health?

Why, of course, they determined their best choice was to seek out places that don't protect workers' health.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/21/local/la-me-porn-condoms-20120221

The landmark law marks a rare attempt to regulate how films are made, threatening an industry that has been a source of millions of dollars in revenue. AIDS activists are gathering signatures for a countywide ballot measure that would extend the ban to dozens of additional communities.

The industry, however, is fighting back. Leaders say they are considering plans to fight back either in court or by moving filming out of town.

It's a debate that pits the desire to protect the health of porn actors against the freedom to make films that audiences want to see.

The Los Angeles City Council acted earlier this year after a series of incidents in which adult film productions were suspended amid concerns that HIV had been transmitted among performers. Despite the health risks of having unprotected sex on movie sets, the industry has strongly opposed a condom requirement, saying that monthly testing already safeguards performers and that customers won't pay to see such films.

Protecting workers, encouraging practices that fight disease in the general public, especially HIV, apparently are secondary concerns to the almighty dollar.

But, hey, only crazy man-hating feminists and religious fundamentalists have an objection to that industry, so we've been told.

[hrmjustin]

1. I agree with regulations that protect the workers.

I think going bareback in porn is a very bad thing.

[geek tragedy]

7. Irresponsible on any number of levels. nt

[hrmjustin]

10. And the industry gets away with it.

[loli phabay]

12. what if the adults making the film agree to go bareback, would you still insist they cant

I believe it should always be about consent and after that anything goes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. I think producers should be responsible for the safety of their employees.

Actual safety, not "appearance of safety".

I know lots of young guys who would consent to not wearing eye protection while welding and grinding, or not wear a harness when working on a roof. OSHA doesn't leave it up to them.

I think that bareback should be allowed only in the most strict circumstances: e.g. all parties have current (in the last 10 days) STD screening and contraception status is verifiable.

[Major Nikon]

124. I've said this before also

I don't think workers should have to work in unsafe environments and this doesn't change when it comes to porn. They should take prudent action to protect workers, whatever that means. STDs aren't the only hazard, either, as there are also other issues that go along with exchanging bodily fluids.

[hrmjustin]

25. Because there is a health issue involved and this is high risk behavior so barebacking should be

banned.

[xulamaude]

90. What's "bareback"? nt

[JI7]

93. no condom

[CFLDem]

48. Seriously?

Sorry but that not only destroys the fantasy that porn but it's an unintentionally condescending towards the talent.

They're porn actors, they know the deal when they sign up and they can refuse any work they don't want to do.

[hrmjustin]

49. And when they catch something the industry just says sorry?

[CFLDem]

52. Yep

Kind of like when a stunt person gets hurt on set, or a football player gets injured, or overseas contractors get blown up.

Reading and understanding small print is a basic standard for being an adult. Along with the freedom to do reasonably risky things for money.

[gollygee]

53. There is no other industry where this is the standard

OSHA has requirements for stunt people and professional athletes. Football players aren't allowed to play without a helmet. Bad example.

[CFLDem]

62. Actually good example

CAL/OSHA already mandates that porn studios take reasonable precautions to protect their worker from semen and blood secretions.

In fact they have issued over 30 citations for such violations since 2004.

Part of the reason it is loosely enforced is because barriers to depositing semen in oral, vaginal, or anal cavities is unreasonable as that is one of the underlying features of certain kinds of pornography.

[gollygee]

65. No, bad example

The standard is that they have to provide as much protection as they reasonably can - if people liked watching football without helmets and padding, it would still not be allowed.

[CFLDem]

68. It's not about people opinions.

It's about affecting the underlying premise of the concept.

A football helmet and padding does not impractically interfere with the ability to run with/catch oblong balls.

A condom does interfere with the ability to deposit semen as is necessary is most pornography.

Please don't make me break out the Barbie dolls to demonstrate

[gollygee]

71. I know when hockey helmets were introduced

People complained that it interfered with their ability to see the puck and play well. They still had to wear the helmets.

You're dealing with an imaginative group of people in any movie industry, and special effects and computers are really good these days. They can have the story line with condoms.

[CFLDem]

76. We're not talking partial interference

We're talking about making the action of depositing live sperm impossible.

Partial interference in the name of safety can be reasonable; total interference cannot.

But go ahead with the god complex and watch the industry move to countries outside of our well meaning bureaucrats' mortal grasp (and likely outside of any regulation at all).

Btw thanks for the virtual sperm bit

[gollygee]

77. You're welcome :D

Just trying to show that it isn't about the story line. LOL.

[CFLDem]

79. Thanks

[cherokeeprogressive]

100. Better check into that. The helmet rule was grandfathered. The first year only ROOKIES had to wear

helmets. Rookies had to start wearing them in 1979.

It went on like that until eventually there was ONE GUY who didn't have to wear a helmet. Craig MacTavish played without a helmet ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL the 96-97 season.

[xulamaude]

97. "ability to deposit semen as is necessary is most pornography."

Why is it "necessary"?

[CFLDem]

110. Well to be frank (graphic warning)

The express purpose of sexual pornography is to create titillation in the viewer through sexual acts.

As we all should know, every person has their own tastes for whats sexually titillating (aka fetishes).

When it comes to ejaculation fetishes, the user is stimulated by the following genres:

Cumshot (ejaculation on or off the body)
Facial( ejaculation on the face)
Anal creampie (ejaculation in the anus)
Vaginal creampie (ejaculation in the vagina)
Swallowing (ingestion of seminal fluids)
Etc

There are also other genres that require contact with human fluids. These include:

Golden showers (urination on the partner)
Scat play (contact/ingestion of feces)
Vampirism( contact/ingestion of blood)

While the industry does have standards, the practical reality is that sex is often by its very definition an exchanging of fluids, and therefore this cannot always be mitigated by physical barriers without totally outlawing the act itself.

[loli phabay]

119. good basic descriptions.

[loli phabay]

111. simply put its what people want to see, there are also acts that follow after that are part of sex

And porn.

[cherokeeprogressive]

95. Two examples: Rugby and Australian Rules Football. Rough stuff that... and no helmets! n/t

https://usafl.com/intro

http://www.usarl.com/about/the-rules-of-rugby-league/

[hrmjustin]

54. Well this is why I believe the industry should be required to use condoms.

[Agschmid]

129. Your examples are flawed.

See the lawsuits currently being brought against major league football since the league potentially did not do enough to protect the players.

[CFLDem]

131. See post #110

for a detailed and graphic example of why mandated enforced condom use would likely constitute a free speech violation (in sane jurisdictions).

See common sense on why such already extant OSHA mandates on condom use are rarely enforced.

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. What does NASCAR say when a driver hits the wall going 180 mph?

[gollygee]

57. That they require tons of safety equipment

to make the driver as safe as they can.

[hrmjustin]

58. Hey you came back! Glad to see you.

Usually nothing because they are dead.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Thanks!

But the NASCAR driver KNEW the risks, no? And no matter WHAT safety precautions one takes, there is always the chance that a risky practice is fraught with danger.

I bet the NASCAR license comes with a release waiver one must sign...

[hrmjustin]

63. Yes but this is a health issue. They could spread it and that is a health issue.

[gollygee]

64. Yeah but they have to also wear all available safety gear

and their cars have tons of safety features. If a new safety feature is found, they use that as well.

Someone can catch a disease despite using a condom (like they can break) but if it were the same as race car drivers, they'd have to use all available safety equipment to reduce risk as much as possible.

[NCTraveler]

137. Teams and drivers in NASCAR

must follow an extremely large number of safety regulations. The regulations put forth by nascar with respect to the interior of the cars is completely about safety. Drivers don't get to pick and choose which regulations they follow.

[JI7]

82. doesn't NASCAR require things like helmets, certain types of clothing, cars are regulated also ?

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. Why yes.

Yes they do.

[mythology]

51. There was a male porn actor recently who altered a positive test for syphilis

Saying they know the risks doesn't mean that somebody can't be an asshole and put them at risk.

Fortunately neither actress got syphilis and I believe the guy got a short jail sentence (a month or so I think). But I think condoms should be mandated because everybody lies and even recent tests don't always catch things soon enough.

[CFLDem]

56. Mandate condoms

and watch them make porn in Mexico.

This type of condescending disregard for the decisions made by grown assed people is what turns people away from our party.

[gollygee]

75. There is a Libertarian Party

but the Democratic Party is traditionally in favor of workplace safety and worker protections.

[CFLDem]

78. Why would I party with those asshats

I'm not that delusional unlike recently discussed unreasonable and unenforceable concepts about pornography.

[Agschmid]

128. Agree.

But you can't control amateurs (the real ones). It's going to be out there and the more limited it becomes the "hotter" commodity it becomes.

[loli phabay]

2. its only enforcable to a certain extent, there is more and more amateur

Porn online nowadays, not sure if there is any way you could enforce rules when a lot of porn is nowadays cam to cam and interactive.

[geek tragedy]

5. this would apply only to professionally produced stuff, not amateur home movies nt

[loli phabay]

8. remember though a lot of the amateur stuff is better produced than the pro stuff nowadays

So in regard to your question if you regulate the pro stuff, would you have a complete freedom when it comes to amateur stuff.

[geek tragedy]

11. amateur stuff isn't commerce, so it's not subject to that kind of regulation nt

[loli phabay]

17. technically it is part of commerce, as you pay to be a member of a site that hosts

And then you have access to the porn frinstance, so it could be argued that there is an element of commerce about it. Not including the advertisement money that comes in.

[stevenleser]

36. "Amateur" are considered professional in many cases because they earn money. Its not for free.

I think that is the sticking point. Joe and Suzy down the block, or Joe and William or Suzy and Diana set up a webcam through a service but they get a percentage of the proceeds.

Its hard to force any of the above couples to use protection. The porn industry then claims they are at a competitive disadvantage because of the 'amateur' folks earning money without using protection.

I'm for forced condom/protection use.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Are you going to make every couple that screws in front of a camera use condoms?

How is that going to work, precisely?

much is made of "porn" and "the porn industry" but it is really an art form or a means of expression than a monolithic force or industry.

What I mean is, "porn" can encompass everything from Andrew Blake films to streaming tube videos to stuff made by amateurs on their iphones and shared freely.

That said, domestically produced, commercial porn IS subject to regulation. It is not a question of "should it be".

[geek tragedy]

6. Just those who get paid to do it. Just like the McDonalds kitchen is regulated

whereas private home kitchens aren't.

Art form? Please. Porn by its very definition is not art.

It wasn't subject to much regulation in California until recently. And when regulations did come into play, the producers behaved like the vulture capitalists they are.

[rrneck]

16. Actually, porn is art.

It's bad art, but it's art nonetheless.

[loli phabay]

19. depends on the porn i suppose, and the viewer.

[rrneck]

26. I go further there.

All porn is art. It's pictures, and pictures is art. It's words, and fiction is words. That's not to say that porn is good art, far from it.

You make an important point about the sensibilities of the viewer. Viewing art is a participatory act, and the nature of that relationship defines the quality of the work.

[loli phabay]

116. yup some of the artwork, settings etc are very artistic.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Whatever. Quibble about the word "art", fine. Banksy has made graffiti "art". Andy kaufman made

Pissing people off, or confusing them, "art".

Art is a word, fine, dont use art. It is a genre.

Commercially available porn is subject to regulation above and beyond those of other "industries", which is why you have 2257 statements.

To claim "it is totally unregulated", is false.

[geek tragedy]

27. Graffiti was art long before anyone heard of Banksy.

Socrates made pissing people off an art.

Porn is hardly unique in being subject to anti-child exploitation laws.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Lookout! Goalpost movin!

Whatever, art, not-art. It is subject to regulation.

[loli phabay]

120. you know porn has been art forever as well from the first cave paintings of ugg and ogg

[spin]

121. Exactly right. ...

The History of Pornography No More Prudish Than the Present
Stephanie Pappas | October 11, 2010 03:40am ET

Pornography is often portrayed as one of the ills of today's society, evidence of modern moral decay brought to you by video cameras and broadband access.

As it turns out, modern times have got nothing on the past. Pornography existed long before video or even photography, and many researchers think evolution predisposed humans for visual arousal (It's a lot easier to pass on your genes if the sight of other naked humans turns you on, after all). Whichever way you slice it, the diversity of pornographic materials throughout history suggests that human beings have always been interested in images of sex. Lots and lots of sex.

***snip***

By that standard, the first known erotic representations of humans might not be porn, in the traditional sense, at all. As early as 30,000 years ago, Paleolithic people were carving large-breasted, thick-thighed figurines of pregnant women out of stone and wood. Archaeologists doubt these "Venus figurines" were intended for sexual arousal. More likely, the figurines were religious icons or fertility symbols.

Fast-forwarding through history, the ancient Greeks and Romans created public sculptures and frescos depicting homosexuality, threesomes, fellatio and cunnilingus. In India during the second century, the Kama Sutra was half sex-manual, half relationship-handbook. The Moche people of ancient Peru painted sexual scenes on ceramic pottery, while the aristocracy in 16th century Japan was fond of erotic woodblock prints.
http://www.livescience.com/8748-history-pornography-prudish-present.html

[libodem]

132. Those chubby figurines

Were probably little Goddesses. Early people were all about worshiping a Mother God. It has been on purpose to wipe out the collective memory of our Pagan roots.

I won't start up about the Patriarchal take over.

[stevenleser]

37. See my #36 above. Even folks termed "amateurs" are getting paid most of the time. nt

[Blanket Statements]

4. I saw where CA was contemplating requiring safety goggles

Or face shields to protect the participants.

Sexy

[loli phabay]

70. diver porn?

[Niceguy1]

80. from

what I have heard its existing law but not enforced

[jberryhill]

9. 18 USC 2257

[geek tragedy]

18. similar laws re: child exploitation exist in a variety of places nt

[jberryhill]

59. What's interesting IMHO...

Is that not having proper records is a violation per se, even if all of the performers are adults.

I continue to be fascinated by the notion that anything "legal" should necessarily be considered socially acceptable. People are free to pick their noses in public. They should not expect to have a lot of friends as a consequence of it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. I would support regulation

Such as the ordinance in Los Angeles. I also would support organizations like AIM, which provided some level of confidence that individuals on the set had been tested.

Workplace safety is important. The (adult) workers should be able to safely portray on camera any kinds of sexual activity they wish.

[PeteSelman]

14. No one wants to see condoms.

Just like no one wants to use them.

It's irrelevant to me since I'm not a porn guy but almost universally this is the opinion I get from people that are.

It's all about sales in the legitimate industry and, like any other industry, whatever hurts sales is anathema.

[geek tragedy]

23. Well, so what? Safety and public health are much more important concerns nt

[PeteSelman]

29. Obviously you don't sell porn.

Else you wouldn't hold such positions.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's why. People that sell things tend to want to give the customers what they want.

Business 101.

[geek tragedy]

33. Public health and worker safety are more important than the ability of pornographers to get rich nt

[PeteSelman]

43. Again, to YOU maybe.

But not to those that spend the money to make the money.

It's like having car races that don't go above 20 MPH or not allowing a mosh pit at a Metal show. And really, porn acting isn't nearly as risky as those two activities.

[rrneck]

15. Just another industry that needs regulating.

Is there a porn actors union? That's how workers get leverage on corporations. It seems to me that the problem is that porn is so stigmatized by by both the right and the left porn workers are left out in the cold with no political support.

[loli phabay]

21. let them join sag, no idea why they are not members already.

[geek tragedy]

24. Because they're not actors nt

[loli phabay]

30. i would say they are, they play parts, have lines even bad ones

Get paid for acting their parts on film, i would say they are actors.

[rrneck]

31. I looked into it a little bit

but I'm no expert by a loooong shot. It looks like you have to work on SAG authorized films to be a member of the union, and you can't work anywhere else if you join. Somehow I don't think SAG has embraced the porn industry.

That's the problem. It's hard for progressives to ballyhoo the value of unions and decry industries that need them at the same time.

[loli phabay]

118. thanks, i always wondered the reason why.

[Egalitarian Thug]

28. Pretending is your forte, and pretending that any of those laws were passed for any reason beyond

the desire of a few hopelessly repressed, sexually frustrated, religiously deluded control freaks to assert control over people they don't like, is perfectly indicative of this whole poo-fling-fest. Congratulations, you have created more shit to throw on the pile.

[geek tragedy]

39. Thank you for that idiotic, ad hominem, dishonest response.

AIDS activists say that the fight over condoms is about protecting performers' health and opposing the promotion of unsafe sex.

"The fact that porn sends out a message that the only type of sex that's hot is unsafe ... we think that's detrimental," said Michael Weinstein, president of the Los Angeles-based AIDS Healthcare Foundation.

The Los Angeles law was the result of months of aggressive lobbying by Weinstein and other AIDS activists, who have long called on the government to step in and make the porn workplace safer. The council approved the law only after activists pressured it by gathering enough signatures to ask voters to decide the issue at the ballot box. The industry has been forced to suspend production several times amid reports that adult performers contracted HIV. One was Derrick Burts, who tested HIV-positive in 2010 and said clinic staff told him he was infected by a fellow performer.

"It's a broken system that they have in place," said Burts, who backs mandatory condoms. "What performer wouldn't want to feel more safe on a work set?"

People who value porn more than they value their fellow human beings' safety are FITH.

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. I think you meant filth, but I don't do the alert thing for whiny insults.

OTOH, you are keeping your unbroken streak of being wrong about everything going.

If you'd bothered to look you wold have found that during the time of highest transmission rates in the U.S., the pornography industry was taking action years before any of the tight-asses looking to ban it would even say the word. Both times that AIDS infected one of its performers, the entire American industry shut itself down while it tested everybody again. How many other multibillion dollar industries shut themselves down because a worker contracted a disease? If you would bother to look (which we both know you won't), you would find that the Catholic Church has a much bigger problem with AIDS than the American porn industry.

I don't work in, nor am I much of a fan of the porn industry, but this incessant bullshit, spewed from the all the usual suspects, ad infinitum, regardless of, and usually counter to, reality crosses the line and simply pisses me off. Some may feel it is necessary to tolerate this stinking pile of bullshit, but I don't.

[geek tragedy]

139. How many jobs in the US require workers to engage in activities

that expose their coworkers to HIV, gonorrhea, syphillis, herpes, and Hepatitis?

Your previous point smearing anyone who wants to protect people's safety in that industry was destroyed, so you're flinging poo as usual.

[NCTraveler]

138. +1

"People who value porn more than they value their fellow human beings' safety are FILTH."

[quinnox]

32. no objection to enforced weekly/or some frequent time period/ testing of all porn participants

for any sex diseases. I don't think forcing the using of condoms is a good idea, its not very appealing in my opinion to see that in a porn film.

[geek tragedy]

35. So, you being able to see 'what's appealing' in porn is more important than worker and

public health/safety?

[quinnox]

38. presumably, the frequent testing would stop any disease breakouts

or transmissions. Condoms are not sexy in porn films, just my opinion.

[geek tragedy]

41. In reality, those tests do not prevent HIV.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fourth-porn-actor-reportedly-latest-to-contract-hiv/

Another porn actor has allegedly come forward after testing positive for HIV, marking the fourth case in the last month, according to an AIDS advocacy group that promotes legislation requiring condoms in pornography.

The AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF) announced on Tuesday to several media outlets that an unnamed male performer told the organization that he tested positive for the virus. It is not known if he contracted the disease through his work, and the organization did not specify the timeline in order to protect the actor's privacy.

"I'm sad for the person involved," Michael Weinstein, who started the AHF, said to Reuters. "But I'm really sad for our community, that we're treating these people as utterly disposable."

[derby378]

40. Let's consider what happened in Japan

Porn is illegal there. Okay, maybe not illegal per se, but if genitalia of either sex makes contact with the fingers, genitalia, mouth, and/or anus of someone else, it gets blurred per government regulation. So what did porn producers do? They created alien tentacle rape porn, which for some reason still isn't censored by the Japanese government. And then there's all the coin-op dispensers of schoolgirl panties, not to mention the pervs on metro subways and buses who insist on rubbing themselves against anyone that's female and breathing.

And thanks to the Internet, anyone in Japan can browse free and uncensored porn from around the world.

Well, I guess that showed them.

[Art_from_Ark]

123. You'll never see "coin-op dispensers of schoolgirl panties"

outside of redlight districts in Japan. I've never seen tentacle rape porn, and have no desire to, so I can't comment on that. However, now there are signs posted in Japanese train and subway stations to remind everyone that "chikan" (intentional groping, rubbing, etc.) is a crime. However, in extremely crowded trains, it is sometimes hard to avoid unintentional rubbing.

[derby378]

142. Good to know, thanks!

I suspect the occasional jostle in a crowded area is unavoidable - one of the earliest memories of my wife is of her trying to climb over me at a crowded food court, only to lose her balance and fall on my lap in a fairly compromising position - but I'm glad Japan is trying to take the issue of molestation on trains seriously.

[Art_from_Ark]

144. Here's a typical anti-molestation poster in a train/subway station

It says "Chikan (molestation) is a crime! It will ruin your life!"

[WillyT]

42. Will This Be A Federal Law ??? - Otherwise, They'll Just Move To A Red State...

And we KNOW how the Red States love their porn.

[Prophet 451]

45. I'm fine with regulation

And yes, the porn industry responded to regulation the same way every industry responds to regulation. Expecting them not to is expecting the porn industry to be better than every other industry.
But let's go with regulation. The problem with regulation is that there is now so much amateur content but assuming we can come up with a reasonable way of seperating amateur content (even for profit amateur content) from pro content, I'll start the bidding at:

- Rubbers for everyone (with the possible exception of exclusive monogamous teams).
- Monthly STD checks for everyone (I considered weekly but that's impractical).
- The formation of a union for porn producers/actors.
- Revamping the payscale. Pretty much everyone in porn is underpaid.
- The creation of .xxx and .sex domains on the web. That means if you want to look at porn, fine but if you don't, it's easily avoided. Also makes barring minor access much easier.
- Ban on rape porn. I've come around on this one due to the difficulty in telling whether a scene is simulated rape or actual rape.

I've probably missed a few needed regulations so let's hear your suggestions.

[derby378]

143. Why nobody has enacted a standard .xxx domain extension is completely beyond me (n/t)

[Prophet 451]

145. It's been tried several times

At various points, it's been blocked by internet content producers (snobbery), religious conservatives (thinking it would "legitimise" porn) and ISPs (your guess is as good as mine).

[LadyHawkAZ]

46. I have no objection to any industry being subject to industrial safety regulations

I think the workers need a union. I think all sex work should have unions, not just porn, including the avenues of sex work that those supposedly woman-loving people would prefer to keep in criminalized and abusive conditions.

I support condom laws, for the same reason I support condom laws in brothels. Where brothels are allowed, that is. Mostly they're not allowed, because certain types of people have an objection to that industry, and prefer to leave the workers in unsafe conditions. Funny how this is suddenly all about worker safety. Where is all this concern when the prostitution threads pop up?

[nomorenomore08]

47. I agree that workplace safety is important in all industries. So is unionizing for that matter.

One thing that boggles my mind, and pisses me off quite a bit, is how knee-jerk anti-labor we are in this country. You'd almost think people want to be paid shit wages with zero benefits.

[Prism]

50. Amateur porn makes this very, very tricky

I'm supportive of regulations, of guarantees of consent, or protected sex in the industry. The whole lot. I think porn workers deserve all the labor protections any other American enjoys.

But porn is a special case.

Amateur couples engage in and post their adventures to the internet. Do we regulate them? How do we regulate them?

I don't have amateur couples changing my oil, checking out my groceries, or moving my furniture. Certainly not for free.

So where do we draw a line on regulation? I agree, in the professional market, I want regulation. But how do we insert the government into two people and a webcam effectively?

And I don't put forward these arguments in favor of no regulation. Not at all. I'm just posing the questions, the practical instances, that we're dealing with here.

[cherokeeprogressive]

60. If LITERATURE is a legitimate means of commercial activity, how do fans feel about regulating it?

Say the government wants to ban certain words, in order to protect those with certain sensibilities?

If SCULPTURE is a legitimate means of commercial activity, how do its fans feel about THE GOVERNMENT regulating it?

If MUSIC is a legitimate means of commercial activity, how do its fans feel about THE GOVERNMENT regulating it?

If ART IN ANY FORM is a legitimate means of commercial activity, how do its fans feel about THE GOVERNMENT regulating it?

Should I go on?

[gollygee]

66. Tons of commercial activity is regulated by the government n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Tons of artistic expression? Or do you not think we're talking about "artistic expression"? n/t

[gollygee]

69. I don't think it's particularly artistic, but that's beside the point

It should be compared to other movies more than literature as it's a more parallel comparison, and the movie industry has regulations.

[cherokeeprogressive]

72. So it's not a legitimate form of expression then, in your opinion?

And if it's not particularly artistic, how artistic is it?

It's not beside the point at all. It's a form of expression. Some call it art.

Do you consider literature to be a form of artistic expression?

[gollygee]

74. I said that it is beside the point

It is not parallel to literature as much as to other movies, and the movie industry has tons of regulations.

Red herring.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. It says a lot that you won't answer a simple question about whether you think it's

artistic expression or not. You know that, right? It's like you're wearing a big sign on your sleeve that says "Any opinion have is informed by my personal bias in this matter".

Answer this question: Is literature a legitimate form of artistic expression?

And this question: Is sculpture a legitimate form of artistic expression?

And this question: Is painting a legitimate form of artistic expression?

And this question: Is music a legitimate form of artistic expression?

And finally, this one: Is a film depicting explicit sexual acts between two consenting adults a legitimate form of artistic expression?

Look, I don't give a shit what you compare to what. It's pretty simple actually... you either have answers for all five questions, or you DON'T. And if you DON'T, it's because you CHOOSE not to. We can move to why you choose not to answer all five after you've publicly made the choice.

[gollygee]

96. Of course it is a form of artistic expression but that's beside the point

i never said it wasn't. I said it is a red herring. It is irrelevant.

[petronius]

103. Part of the issue, though, is that the performers are both artists

and employees - and as employees their environment is subject to workplace safety regulation. Other examples would be figure models, ballet dancers, and orchestra musicians.

I would probably draw the line at whether or not a performer or artist, of any sort, is working on their own or is working for pay at the direction of someone else. An independent artist in his/her own studio or whatever should have the freedom to go wherever the artistic vision leads, but an employee is entitled to a basically safe workspace whether or not they want it...

[Bjorn Against]

113. Publishing houses do have to follow OSHA regulations

Because writing literature is not generally a particularly dangerous occupation there are not big problems with safety in the publishing houses, but worker safety protections do exist. Those protections do not prevent writers from writing what they want to write, but they do provide health and safety protections for the writers.

The movie industry is really a better comparision however as movie sets are more dangerous than the offices where literature is written. People get injured or even killed on movie sets, especially when high action sequences are being filmed movie sets can be pretty dangerous places and they are fairly heavily regulated by OSHA. Again the content of the artistic expression is not being limited, there are simply rules in place to prevent people from being hurt.

I am not anti-porn, but I am pro workers rights and I have no problem with basic health and safety standards being put in place to protect porn stars. I don't want those regulations being used as an excuse to shut down porn because some people find it icky, but I also don't think that the porn industry should be exempt from workplace safety laws.

[jazzimov]

73. I thought it was already regulated.

Child-porn is illegal, as I agree it should be.

What you are talking about are "additional" regulations. They are a lot of both pro- and con- arguments for additional regulations for porn.

I think you are being overly emotional, as evidenced in your final statement "But, hey, only crazy man-hating feminists and religious fundamentalists have an objection to that industry, so we've been told."

Can we have a serious, logical discussion about this?

Apparently not, because it's too emotional an issue. Which is why I've avoided these threads so far. There is no logic. In the few cases where someone tries to interject logic, they are shouted down. This is not the behavior I expect from a Discussion Forum. Especially a Democratic forum in which all sides are supposed to be presented equally, so that the reader can make up their own mind.

But it seems that it is more important to "make a point", such as this post tries to do.

[Vashta Nerada]

81. It is regulated.

This is a pointless OP.

[Vashta Nerada]

83. How about we let consenting adults be consenting adults?

FYI, the porn industry is already regulated.

[BainsBane]

84. like the consenting adults who work at Walmart

and on other retail locations on Thanksgiving?

Porn is regulated some places, not everywhere. If it were, it wouldn't use slave labor.

[Vashta Nerada]

86. Porn = slave labor?

Now I've seen it all.

[BainsBane]

89. Not equals, uses

Some porn is created with slave labor. Are you really that completely ignorant about modern-day slavery? There is nothing funny about the fact more people are held in bondage now than at any point in human history. That you find anything remotely funny about that topic is disturbing, to say the least.

[Vashta Nerada]

91. Some people get paid to be in bondage.

I'm not sure I understand your argument.

[BainsBane]

99. slavery as a labor system, meaning being owned by another person

It has nothing to do with BDSM. Pay some attention to the world you live in.
http://www.antislavery.org/english/
The UN estimates 21 people are currently enslaved: http://www.un.org/en/events/slaveryabolitionday/
http://www.state.gov/j/tip/
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/thousands-indonesian-women-trafficked-hong-kong-face-exploitation-and-risk-domestic-slavery-201

[loli phabay]

114. bet that at least one component in the machine you are using to post

Had slavery involved somewhere, yet i dont see you putting it down anytime soon. Seems you want to inflate all porn to be the same and use all sorts of arguments that there is not really consent to try to accomplish it.

[BainsBane]

115. Seems to me you aren't reading

anything I write, so I see no point in clarifying something I've already explained to you several times.

You may be right about the computer. It certainly used low-paid and heavily exploited labor.

[loli phabay]

117. why bother, you dance around when asked questions.

[BainsBane]

135. If you aren't going to read

Don't bother asking. I've responded directly to many of your questions. That they don't fit into the one dimensional argument you want to project on to me is your problem.

As for Dell's using slave labor, it's unlikely because of the skilled nature of the work. If you find out that's the case, let me know and I'll inform my employer, who bought the computer.

[snooper2]

141. Your using your work computer for "non-work" related activities!

[Bjorn Against]

88. Yes, I think all industries should have to comply with basic health and safety standards

The key issue for me is that all porn is made with the consent of both parties, sometimes when money gets involved and there is a decision between doing a scene and paying the rent the lines of consent can become blurred, it is difficult for an actor to insist on using a condom when the producer does not want a condom used in the scene. When it becomes a decision between not getting the money to pay rent and wearing a condom some actors decide to do the scene without a condom so they can get their pay check.

Employers can pretty much force people to "consent" to things they would otherwise never do, this is why regulation is necessary.

Let me be clear that I am not anti-porn and I think some porn is actually positive, I think porn should be freely available to adults but porn stars should be entitled to work place protections.

[RainDog]

92. I support regulations

People should not be exposed to life-threatening diseases if they are involved in business-related porn work. I think it should be treated like the prostitution industry in places where it is also legal or decriminalized.

[BainsBane]

94. Refusing to consider this issue shows a willful disregard for workers rights

whether those workers are free or enslaved. They will rail against Walmart, but willfully ignore the rights of those who work in porn.

Some porn is regulated, which is why consuming porn from licensed and registered pornographers can mitigate the level of exploitation one subsidizes. When I have raised that suggestion, responses have been "you're trying to ban porn" or "pass judgment on relations between two consenting adults." The benefit of consuming responsibly is that the customer knows that those workers are likely consenting. When you view any random thing on the web, you have no idea whether that's the case.

[Vashta Nerada]

98. Yeah, if you actually cared about worker's rights,

you'd start a thread about worker's rights in porn, not about "Thank goodness for men who like sex with real breathing, living, orgasmic women better than porn."

[BainsBane]

101. You are free to write your own thread at anytime

You've been very clear about your own views on workers rights.

[Vashta Nerada]

102. When it fails miserably, can I claim that I was drunk?

[BainsBane]

106. 300 posts is a fail?

I thought the fail was all the times you and everyone else ignored my OPs on modern day slavery, just as you laughed at the subject now.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. It's no "Moon Bombing", that's for sure.

Oh, I'm sure someone around here remembers the moon bombing thread!

[xulamaude]

107. Sure! Why not!

Women, apparently, do it all the time.

[Vashta Nerada]

109. *cough*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4120504

[BainsBane]

104. By the way, I've started many threads about modern slavery

you and the rest of the respondents here had zero interest in the subject. You then blame me for what you respond to.

[Kurska]

134. Who on earth has been refusing to consider the issue, seriously.

Nearly every single person on the "other side" has mentioned the word regulation several times and expressed concern for the safety of works. I know that I certainly have when I responded to you.

It must be nice to be able to debate whatever you want, instead of what the other side is actually saying.

[Orsino]

140. +1

I think the OP was trying for a clever gotcha. Oh, well.

[DonCoquixote]

105. I would be for it

and indeed, the major producers self regulate, demanding health tests, but then again a lot of the executives in the major houses, such as vivid, are women who worked in the industry and knwo the risks, The problem is, there is no way to stop any idiot from doing it, and even if you were to ban it through the whole G8, someone would do it, so the obnly thing to do is to run the amaturs out of buisness, and that is done with money.

[RainDog]

108. conversely

amateur porn may be to the porn industry what the internet and other tech changes have been to other industries - the existence of free porn made by amateurs might drive a lot of businesses out of business.

I've commented here regarding this issue, even tho I'm not a fan, but I had commented on the issue on other threads, so just wanted to indicate my agreement with regulation.

As far as the claim that certain "traditions" for the genre cannot exist with love gloves, etc. - I don't buy that argument (upthread) because of the capacity to create "special effects" for very little money, with some ingenuity.

So, if someone wants to make porn available, commercially, they would have to have the skill to use f/x to simulate things that would present a health hazard for the worker.

I don't think that's unreasonable constraint.

[Vashta Nerada]

112. Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_film_industry_regulations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_Industry_Medical_Healthcare_Foundation

The porn industry already does mandatory health tests.

[Xithras]

122. I have no problem regulating commercially produced corporate porn.

Commercially produced porn is a business, and as such should be regulated just like any other industry.

The problem nowadays is that the majority of the porn on the Internet is created by amateurs.

[Kurska]

126. I agree it should be regulated, not sure about that particular regulation.

I don't like the idea of requiring a condom to cover a penis before it can be shown engaged in sex on camera. I'm not sure how that jives with freedom of speech.

I am all for every other kind of safety regulation, mandatory testing, decent pay and health benefits.

Somehow I have the feeling that no amount of regulation would be enough for the sex-negatives. They are only interested in using regulation to wound the bottom line of a beast they intend to kill.

If you want to have a legitimate conversation about how to improve the state of workers in the industry, I'm all ears. But if you're not willing to update your position based on improved conditions in the industry, then I'm not really interested.

[JustAnotherGen]

127. Geek

This is why I adore your mind. I'm in agreement with this concept.

CWA workers get protection from TPB - why can't actors/actresses in porn? I wonder if there is union that specifically addresses their needs as it relates to the "work" they do?

BainsBane plopped this idea in a thread this weekend - and should have started an OP addressing it. I'm glad you did.

Maybe if we take it to a place of workers rights - people will understand. I can't imagine anyone at DU would be against someone instigating these human beings into: Just being out for themselves against the millionaires who run (produce) these things.

[Rex]

133. One reason I think prostitution should be legal and regulated

same with the porn industry (which is just legal prostitution imo). I do not approve of what they do, however I respect their rights as individuals to do it and think regulations and oversight would help decrease the inherent dangers of prostitution.

[NCTraveler]

136. There should be more regulations.

The industry isn't very interested in the safety of its workers. They just want their clients to have a happy ending, no matter what a worker has to go through.