Spanking children increases their risk of lawbreaking later in life

[BainsBane]

It's a video. It also makes the point that children who are not spanked have IQs much higher than those who are.

http://news.discovery.com/human/videos/psychology-videos.htm

[Drale]

1. Not a suprise

Corporal punishment does not solve anything. The fear created by its just makes the child more likely to lie to avoid punishment, hide things and use violence to solve problems both at that time and later in life.

[BainsBane]

3. That makes sense

The link to later violence in life seems obvious, the rest less so, but your explanation makes sense.

[surrealAmerican]

2. It's not surprising.

Children learn from the example their parents set.

[Warpy]

4. No wonder I was a teenager from hell.

The only wonder is that I survived it long enough to outgrow it.

[former9thward]

5. Dumb video.

Gives absolutely no information about the so-called "studies." Simply a three minute rant without facts.

Spanking used to be common in schools. How come we did not have a whole nation of idiots and law-breakers?

[BainsBane]

6. We did

The crime rate used to be far higher than it is today.

[former9thward]

9. Not at all.

There has been a long term decline in crime which has nothing to do with spanking practices. http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-crime-puzzle-violent-crime-declines-in-america/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File roperty_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg

Crime took a sharp rise up starting in the early mid/60s. Did parents start spanking then?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[BainsBane]

10. linking crime rates with assumptions about spanking isn't determinative

either for or against. There are too many variables to consider. You want to look at actual studies on the effect of spanking.

[CorrectOfCenter]

16. Psych Central...

The measures are criminal beliefs, antisocial personality, father assaulted by child in previous year, mother assaulted by child in previous year, physical assault of partner in previous year, severe physical assault of partner in previous year, physically injured partner in previous year, attacked someone intending to seriously injure them, and stolen money from anyone, including family.

The 15 countries in the study are Hong Kong, Taiwan, Belgium, Greece, Italy, Norway, Poland, Russia, Scotland, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, Israel, Canada and the United States. Straus took into account the influence of such factors as parental education, misbehavior as a child, loving and positive approach to correcting misbehavior, student gender, student age, and nation.

One of the most interesting findings was related to the effect of parents who took a loving and positive approach but who also spanked their children.

“So many parents and child psychologists believe that if spanking is done by loving and helpful parents, it has no harmful effect,” Straus said.

“This study and only one other study I know of that empirically investigated this belief found that it is not true. Spanking seems to be associated with an increased probability of subsequent child behavior problems regardless of culture and, regardless of whether it done by loving and helpful parents.”

http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/11/25/ironic-spanked-children-more-likely-to-break-the-law/62504.html

[pintobean]

18. What did you expect?

[pnwmom]

29. So much of family abuse was hidden -- or accepted.

Or don't you think spouse-abuse counts? Since it wasn't against the law . . . .

[former9thward]

34. Spanking was common when I was growing up.

And no we didn't run out and break laws. An occasional spanking for misbehavior is not going to hurt anyone or affect them long term. And no I am not talking about brutal beatings on a on-going basis. But neither is the video. In the field of social 'science' you can prove anything you want to prove depending on how you define terms and what you measure.

[pnwmom]

35. I disagree. Any time a parent loses control, it damages his relationship

with his child and teaches that violence is acceptable.

And if a parent does it coldly, in control -- that's just sick. Any parent who's calm and in control has a wealth of other methods of discipline available.

[Gman]

8. Horse manure

[sendero]

11. Or is it..

..... that wild kids that wind up getting corporal punishment after everything else fails grow up to be wild adults?

How did they control for that possibility? Or did they. Because if they didn't, this is junk science that will be easily debunked later.

I got my ass spanked as a child a few times at home and at school and it was JUST NOT A BIG FUCKING DEAL. Among the trauma inducing event of my youth spanking wouldn't even make it into the top 10. I'm sick of people MAKING SHIT UP and calling it fact.

[BainsBane]

12. No

Parents who spank do so on children from a very young age, before they form into "wild" or any other kind of kid. How would you suggest they control for a child's being "wild"? That concept itself is non-scientific.

[LordGlenconner]

14. "before them forum"

I'm sorry, I guess I'll have to wait for the translation.

[BainsBane]

15. My life is a series of typos

now corrected.

[nomorenomore08]

25. Maybe "a few times" is partly the key there. I can only remember being spanked once or twice

myself, and that certainly didn't scar me. But for someone who received corporal punishment over and over again as a child, it might be a different story.

[pnwmom]

31. It is the wild parents who hit their children.

My husband was hit by an abusive parent, and not because HE was wild. It's because his parent was out of control.

[laundry_queen]

43. Yep.

I was a scared little mouse of a child. Extremely compliant, rarely got into trouble, straight A's, did my chores etc etc. I was still hit, and often, by my father. Usually it was for some rule I didn't even know existed. An example - whenever I asked my parents for something, their favorite thing to tell me was 'just a minute!'. So one day, when I was 4, I was playing across the street in a neighbor's sandbox. My dad called me in for supper. Now, the rule (told to me by my mother) was to shake myself, my socks and my shoes out so I didn't track sand into the house. So I yelled back, "just a minute!" as I did the requirement, before I went back home. It probably took me an extra 2 minutes after he called me. As soon as I stepped through the door, he grabbed my arm and started whacking me on the behind. I had no idea WTH happened. It was only later, after a few hours alone in my bedroom as 'punishment' that I found out my grave transgression. I made HIM wait for ME. He told me in no uncertain terms that I was to NEVER tell him to wait EVER AGAIN.

So go ahead and tell me that I deserved it.

I agree, pnwmom that in my case the parent was totally out of control. My dad often raged and hit when he didn't get 100% compliance ASAP or even if some perceived look or slight enraged him.

Now that I'm a parent, I can say I have NEVER hit my kids and you know what? Totally unnecessary and imo the only reason for spanking is when out of control parents want to get their frustrations out on those younger and weaker than them. I've had plenty of moments when I feel unbelievable rage towards my children, but I take a deep breath and walk away. Or I try to vocalize it with them, "I'm SO angry right now, I don't even know what to do!" but I made a promise to myself when I had kids that I would never hit them, and I haven't. It's not easy and I've had to explore a lot of alternatives to the 'easy way' of spanking. But it was worth it. I have great kids...admittedly my oldest is only 16 but so far, glowing reviews from everyone who knows them. And the best thing is...they trust me. If something is important to me, they WANT to help me with it. I never trusted my parents as far as I could throw them, and as a teen my general response to them saying something "is important to us" was 'fuck them, they don't care about what is important to me'. My relationship with my kids is so, vastly, different.

[pnwmom]

44. This might be the best post on the page, laundry_queen,

because you do such a good job of describing this from the child's perspective.

I was also a "good" little girl, and in my family wasn't one of the victims, but I was horrified to watch a sibling being hit -- the one who stood up for herself. So hitting one child has repercussions on them all. I bet that's also something the hitting-apologists never realize.

My children now are older than yours and I've seen the same results. As you say, they all trust me. They all know they can come to me (or their father) with anything. Even their friends have come to me, when they need calm, adult advice. Their parents don't know what they're missing.

[laundry_queen]

47. That's probably because some spankings are still as clear to me as the day it happened.

It really did scar me. I used to pray for my dad to die, every night. Then I felt guilty because I knew that wishing or praying for that was wrong and I was certain God was going to punish me. Ugh, the constant stress as a child - waiting for the next parental explosion, walking on eggshells, worrying about God's revenge because of my horrible thoughts...

I also get the horror of watching a sibling being hit. My brother was not like me at all - he loved to test boundaries. You can imagine how well that went over - he was hit far more often than I was. The problem was that he often hit me (probably from what he had seen) and when I'd cry, he'd get spanked - hard. I'd always feel guilty for 'getting him into trouble' and try to console him but usually he was mad at me for tattling. Also, sometimes when he'd hit me, I'd be told, "just hit him back!" so I did, and then we'd get into a fist fight and then *I'd* get spanked because I was older and should've known better. hit, hit, hit was the answer for everything in my parents' book.

That's nice to hear about your kids...hopefully mine continue on the same path - cool about their friends too. I agree with you about their parents.

[pnwmom]

56. Based on the experience of my friends and relatives,

if you have several children, at least one will have a rough patch in their late teens or early twenties. (Being a parent is not over when we think it is.) But just keep being your (mostly) calm, loving self and you will all get through it.

[Xithras]

40. It could also be...

...that the poor parenting abilities that lead to out-of-control children and frequent spankings ALSO result in the raising of children who are more likely to engage in criminal activity.

I prefer to blame the parents, and not the kids. If you have to spank, you're a poor parent. If you're a poor parent, the odds of your kid ending up a criminal are substantially higher. The spanking may not lead to criminal activity directly, but poor parenting can lead to both childhood spankings AND adult criminal behavior.

[CorrectOfCenter]

13. Criminalizing spanking is long overdue. nt

[BainsBane]

19. child abuse is illegal

but mild corrective punishment is not typically seen as abusive. I don't think it would do children any good to criminalize spanking and thereby end up sending millions of children into foster care, where treatment can often be worse than in their birth homes. Educating parents to the potential effects of spanking is more constructive, IMO.

[CorrectOfCenter]

20. True. You have a point.

But those 'Spare the rod' Bible belters don't want to hear any edumacation and fancy shcmancy liberal statistics.

[BainsBane]

21. True, nor are bible belters alone in rejecting science

and other evidence that challenges their preexisting beliefs.

[uppityperson]

17. good lord!imagine how brilliant I'd have been if only my parents hadn't spankd me!

[LordGlenconner]

23. Me too

Honestly I'm fine with nobody getting spanked. It was a big deterrent for me when I was of that age, but I accept that some kids don't fear it and that it can escalate.

I'm not a parent (thankfully) but I do find it troubling when I see friends fail to discipline their kids (in any form) for obvious bad behavior, including physical and mental abuse of family pets, siblings, other people's property all of which I've seen in person from several different families.

But it's hard to blame them. These parents really don't have any tools at their disposal anymore, unless people think "time outs" are actually effective. I think they're a load of horse shit.

[BainsBane]

24. Discipline and spanking aren't synonymous

Of course they have tools. They have their minds. It's possible to create incentives and punishment that have nothing to do with hitting. I don't have children either, but I have learned a bit about dog training. Dog trainers insist hitting a dog does not get them to follow commands, that you have to use positive reinforcement for them to learn. Children certainly don't have lower cognitive ability than puppies. I also know my sister never hit her children, and she has great, well behaved kids who talk to her rather than fear her.

On the most basic level, I think of this: Do we want to encourage children to see violence as a means of resolving conflict. As someone not keen on war and violent crime, I do not.

I think the misbehavior you recount, which I also see with some frequency, is a result of parents not setting limits. Parents can set those limits without physical punishment. One case I recall was when I was on a plane and a toddler was in the isle. The flight attendant told the father a couple of times that she needed to use the isle for service. The father responded: "He doesn't feel like being in his seat right now." That father's problem wasn't lacking tools but lacking some sense and basic respect for others.

[pnwmom]

38. Exactly. They have their minds. But they too often don't have the patience.

And especially if they were hit themselves as children, hitting might be their first instinct.

[pnwmom]

32. There are PLENTY of tools at the disposal of parents who don't hit.

The problem is, all those tools require brains to use them, along with patience that many parents lack -- especially the ones who were hit as children, and whose first instinct is also to hit.

[Pitagoras]

22. Spanking how hard? Spanking how frequently? nt

[Vashta Nerada]

26. I was spanked as a child.

It did absolutely no good. I still did bad. I just had a sore ass doing the bad things I was doing.

I am totally anti-spanking today. It pisses me off when I see my brother-in-law spank my nephews.

[dballance]

27. Correlation is not causation.

I'm suspicious of any study that makes the conclusion this one does. I'll have to watch the video later. When I do, I'll form an opinion for sure. I can't watch now since I'm in a restaurant w/o headphones.

If any of you who have watched want to squelch my concern about it just being correlation I'm happy to hear it.

[Niceguy1]

28. funny how we don't like

It as a child but when we are adults its another story lol

[hunter]

30. Respect for authority has to be taught.

I was never taught to respect authority. The rule was "walk away from trouble."

[pnwmom]

33. But a violent person doesn't teach respect for authority.

S/he just teaches fear of violence.

[hunter]

39. When I was a kid my mom quit Catholic for pacifist Jehovah's Witness.

But my mom couldn't stay out of politics. The JW's were intolerant of politics so our family ended up Quaker. My mom would say whatever God was telling her to say and Friends would listen respectfully and then move on.

(Doesn't work so well at Catholic Mass...)

Later I had an Orthodox girlfriend who was trying to prove to herself and her family and her community she was not a Lesbian.

"My Big Fat Greek Wedding" style. Now I'm Orthodox!!!

Shortly after, CRASH, burn. She's now long married to her girlfriend, a woman who tried to kill herself in my bathtub.

1979-1981 really, really, really, really sucked for me.

Then I met my wife, after all this useless drama.

These days I'm an ordinary left wing environmentalist nominal Catholic who doesn't feel too bad if he misses Mass on Sunday.

[Capt. Obvious]

36. It also makes them more susceptible to watching porn

[BainsBane]

45. You're obsessed

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. .

.

[AZ Progressive]

37. America is a dysfunctional country

If the government insists on teaching parents on how to raise their children, parents will say "You have no right how to tell me to raise my child!" and then the parents, having little training other than what they saw from their own parents (which could be good or bad), raise their children in however they think is right, not knowing if they are making some serious mistakes in their parenting, and then they only find out if so until much later, resulting in harming the child seriously for life.

America's distrust of authority (unfortunately at times, rightly so) makes it that people are on their own and noone's given a guide to life, which thus makes it highly likely for people to make serious mistakes in life.

[freshwest]

41. I see it as an outgrowth of our plantation mentality. n/t

[BainsBane]

57. Interesting

Though public punishment at pillories was routinely used against free people as well. It came over from Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory
I do believe that punishment of slaves had broader impact on society at large. The state marshaled its resources to protect an institution that depended on violence to endure. That had an influence throughout society.

[pnwmom]

42. Here's what every parent who hits will never know

(and, let's be honest, we're talking about hitting):

How much anger the child felt about the hitting, and how it might affect his life.

If the adult child's anger is unconscious, then s/he might go on to express it by hitting his own children, and trying to rationalize it to himself.

If the adult child's anger is conscious, he might never tell his parent. But it will be there as a barrier between them. And good luck to the parent if he ever becomes a dependent of that adult child. Hopefully, the child will treat him with kindness. Or maybe the anger will finally come out.

What goes around comes around.

[FarCenter]

46. Children that behave so that they get spanked continue to behave that way as adults

Children with higher IQs get away with stuff that would get dumber kids spanked.

The only way to prove the video's assertion would be to randomly assign children to "spanked" and "non-spanked" test conditions and see if there are statistically significant differences in criminal behavior or IQ after they have grown up.

[BainsBane]

48. I wish they included links to the studies in question

It seems a fair enough summary, but that they provide no supporting links is annoying.

[FarCenter]

49. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Warren DeMontague]

50. I recognize that opinions on parenting vary. But i think spanking is, at best

A lazy approach which sends the kid a bad message.

Lord knows I'm not a perfect parent. i could certainly be more patient. But my wife and I have never spanked our kids.

[mike_c]

51. my parents spanked me a LOT....

I won't say more.

on edit-- I can only remember actually spanking my own daughter once, after we'd backed ourselves so thoroughly into a corner that we couldn't get out, i.e. "if you do that (at day care) again you'll get a spanking, young lady, and this time we mean it!" Turned her over my knee and applied my palm to her butt. I think she was over it in minutes, but I cried for a long time afterward. Never again.

[BainsBane]

55. I'm exhibit B on why not to hit your kids

That should scare quite a few off spanking.

[elleng]

53. No s**t, Sherlock.

[SheilaT]

54. I found that when I

spanked my younger son his behavior got worse.

I'd grown up being spanked, and even though I didn't think it was a good thing I still spanked some when he was little. But there was a direct correlation between his behavior and what I did. It was very hard and it took a lot of creative thinking on my part, but once I no longer spanked (by the time he was about 5) it was possible to redirect his behavior, to have punishments that suited whatever the crime was.

One of the very unfortunate things about this whole discussion is that too many think that the only possible way to discipline or correct a child is to spank. No. There's plenty of other things. It is important that you make it very clear from the beginning what behavior is and is not acceptable.

We also went through a tough time when he was about 17, but things turned around after a year and he's now 26, a great person.

None of us are perfect.