Pope Attacks Same-Sex Marriage In Historic Policy Statement

[Humanist_Activist]

While the 224-page policy statement Pope Francis I released this week has been heralded by the left as a tribute to basic tenets of Christianity, like caring for the poor and not idolizing wealth, and by Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and the radical right as “Marxism,” same-sex marriage still gets attacked in the pontiff’s “Evangelii Gaudium.”

The Pope, for example, blames “the negative aspects of the media and entertainment industries,” which are “threatening traditional values, and in particular the sacredness of marriage and the stability of the family.”

He goes on to lament that the “family is experiencing a profound cultural crisis, as are all communities and social bonds”– certainly a fair statement.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/pope-attacks-same-sex-marriage-in-historic-policy-statement/marriage/2013/11/30/79348#.Up6DN8RDvMw

[hrmjustin]

1. Did he say same sex marriages are bad in the document?

[Xithras]

3. No, but he did make one actual reference to the fight.

“Marriage now tends to be viewed as a form of mere emotional satisfaction that can be constructed in any way or modified at will, but the indispensable [sic] contribution of marriage to society transcends the feelings and momentary needs of the couple.”

That's basically a slap at any non-traditional marriage. Not just gay marriage, but even nontraditional open heterosexual marriages like my own.

[hrmjustin]

4. It used to get pages but now it gets just a line that can be seen as very weak.

[Humanist_Activist]

5. I don't see how, its the same type of language used by NOM and their ilk...

what do you want him to do, start using the f-word or something? The man is a homophobe, and has said worse things in the past.

[hrmjustin]

6. I like to think he is changing but you are right to hold his feet to the fire.

[Humanist_Activist]

8. People always say he is changing his views, then fail to provide evidence for this. n/t

[hrmjustin]

10. One might say that the few sentences on the subbject might be a sign that things might be changing.

The last two would have devoted pages to not wanting marriage equality.

[arely staircase]

14. precisely nt

[Humanist_Activist]

23. Not really, he's Pope now, when he was just a Cardinal, he got down and dirty...

trying to actively ban same sex marriage in his home country. Now he doesn't need to dedicate pages to attacking things like that, its delegated to his underlings, the Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops under him can, and do, dedicate pages of articles, millions of dollars in lobbying efforts, etc. in fighting against the civil rights for LGBT people.

Also, just an FYI, the Catholic Church isn't a democracy, there is no "holding his feet to the fire" here, he's accountable to people who are just as conservative as he is.

[hrmjustin]

48. The RCC has many faults and the fact it is not democratic is one of them.

I left to join the Episcopal Church where we do have democracy. I am just personally hopeful that things will change.

[gerogie2]

49. The catholic Church will never change

They didn't change for the reformation an dthey won't change now. However 90% of USA Catholics use birth control so they are driving out their own members slowly.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Of course you can not show us the 'pages' the others wrote, nor will you admit Francis' own

recent history in Argentina, where their President called Francis' language 'Medieval and suggestive of the Inquisition' because Francis used such horrific hate speech as he lead the 30% opposition to equality. He says our relationships are an 'attack on God's plan' and says they come from Satan. If you are comfortable with that, so be it, but the facts remain as they are, and it is the factual Francis that you are defending, not some imaginary Francis.

[hrmjustin]

47. I left the RCC because I was told by Cardinal O'connor that I was going to burn in hell for being

gay. So no I am not comfortable with his past but I believe he is changing and seeing that being anti-gay is not working for the church.

[gollygee]

9. Yeah it seems pretty obvious

"Constructed in any way" sounds like it's about same-sex marriage and "modified at will" sounds like it's about divorce.

[Volaris]

24. "modified at will" does indeed sound like it's about divorce,

but "constructed in any way"....LIKELY its about same-sex marriage, but without him actually coming out and saying it, it just as possible it's a reference to prenuptial agreements.

Yeah, yeah, I know..I know better. As the above poster noted, it IS a slap at same-sex marriage, but given the position of Rome as an Institution, it's a pretty weak hit, and I would wager, intentionally so.

[pnwmom]

20. He's supported civil partnerships in the past. Can you provide a link

to the "worse things" you claim that he's said?

[Humanist_Activist]

25. Sure...

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/03/13/new-pope-francis-believes-same-sex-marriage-and-adoption-is-the-devils-work/

[leftynyc]

32. I disagree

I think it's a slap at what marriage has become. Disposable. TV shows like the Bachelor (or whatever it's called). It's become a joke and that has nothing to do with the gays.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Here is some context, Francis is well known for his rants against equality for gay people.

In 2010, he fought against the introduction of same-sex marriage and adoption rights in his home country of Argentina saying that the population would “face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family.
He added: “At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

He went on to describe introducing equality as a move from “the ‘Father of Lies’ who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God”. In the Gospel of John, ‘the Father of Lies’ is a term for the Devil.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/03/13/new-pope-francis-believes-same-sex-marriage-and-adoption-is-the-devils-work/

But yeah, it's not about 'the gays'. Whatever gets you thought the night, it's alright.

[leftynyc]

42. Spare me your sarcasm

I'm not Catholic and couldn't possibly care less what the pope has to say on any subject. I'm just giving my opinion on what was written. You want to read into it what isn't there, knock yourself out.

[Major Nikon]

15. In previous statements he claimed gay marriage was the work of the devil

[hrmjustin]

16. Yes I have seen them. I am hoping her is changing his mind.

[Shivering Jemmy]

2. Hmm does it say that elsewhere in the document?

Or are we to infer it from the excerpt?

[Humanist_Activist]

7. Why not read it? n/t

[Ms. Toad]

18. It doesn't say it. The article title, carried over here,

is extremely misleading.

[HockeyMom]

11. Marriage for life with as many children

as God wants you to have. So what has changed?

[Vashta Nerada]

12. But he drives a Renault with 4930453458345 miles on it...

he helps the homeless at night, and he attacked capitalism!11111ELEVENS He's teh awesome!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111111111111111

[arely staircase]

13. that is it?

what used to be one of the Roman Church's greatest hits is now a line or two? (a pretty wattered down line or two I might add) And replaced with a greater emphasis on social justice to the point of getting called a commie by Rush Limbaugh? The moral arch of the universe is long but it bends toward justice.

[Ms. Toad]

17. I'd suggest you change your subject line -

since the only lines being quoted here (or that I can find) do not "attack same sex marriage," but I see you just copied it from the article.

I am not under any illusion that the pope believes that same sex marriages should be consecrated in the church - but it is really a stretch to call the lines being quoted an "attack on same sex marriage," especially when compared with prior very explicit statements on the subject.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. Question, what traditional values does he want upheld that are mentioned in this document?

not to mention a number of other homophobic and rightwing buzzwords used.

Also, just to make things clear, he not only doesn't want it to be consecrated in his church, he wants it to be illegal by force of law.

[pnwmom]

21. And yet he has supported civil partnerships. That's a position far to the left

of most Bishops in the Church.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. Actually, he called it the lesser of two evils, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement...

in addition, this was in a closed room meeting, and we can't be 100% sure what he said about it.

He still calls same sex marriage an idea sprung from "the father of lies", and considers same sex parenting to be child abuse.

[Ms. Toad]

27. The point is that the document itself

does not say what the caption in the article or this thread says - and both are specific to what "this historic policy statement" says, and the statement itself does not attack same sex marriage. Had he felt like doing so, based on past statements, he certainly knows how to do so directly - and didn't here.

As for marriage, based on his recent statements your last statement is likely untrue - although his recent statements were as ambiguous as the ones in this "historic policy statement," so unlike you I won't claim absolute certainty based on statements which are ambiguous.

[Tigress DEM]

26. There are a lot of assumptions around partial quotes, so I'm not convinced.

He's the Pope and doesn't support gay marriage as a sacrament most likely, but I don't see anything in the article that shows the Pope on attack.

But combined with what he's said about gays lately, I think people are jumping to conclusions. He was very strident in his objections before, but his tone has changed lately.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. If you are going to tout his 'positive' quotes, you owe it to others to read the full screed Francis

delivered on his private jet during a press conference. The rant was about the 'gay lobby' and how 'it's not good'. He said 'it's not good'. His blather was 'love the sinner, hate the sin' materials and hinged on celibacy and a lack of relationships for gay people. To claim these are such great things when they are the same things Protestant bigoted preachers say when they join him in opposing our rights is absurd. They all say 'we love them, so we must stop what they do'. That's not a nice thing. Equating us with some 'Masonic Lobby' as he did is creepy and obtuse, but he also did that.
The man who said 'who am I to judge' in the midst of that rant is a man who openly and loudly built his career on judging gay people, saying our relationships are from the devil, that gay parenting is a form of discrimination against their children, on and on, horrible shit just like Pat Robertson and not a whit better.
What he's said lately is that he opposes our rights, says we should never organize, never marry or partner or even have sex, never be parents.
Do you care much for anyone who says your family is from the devil? If not, why is it ok for him to say this about others?
This fictional account in which he is accepting is fictional. Fictional is a nice word for it.

[cbayer]

29. While I think the pope and the RCC have a very long way to go, this article and it's title are

misleading, to say the least.

The pope talks about marriage and family in general. He makes absolutely no reference that I can find to homosexuality but seems to be aiming his remarks at support of marriage and families, criticism of those other than committed parents having children and against divorce, while rather studiously avoiding any mention of same-sex issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. Context provides his quotes saying gay people raising kids is 'discrimination against the children'

and of course that our relationships come from the devil as part of 'an attack on God's plan'. The title is spot on, and it is sad how many here want to pretend Francis was not a very active anti gay political figure in Argentina, where the President called his words 'suggestive of the Inquisition'. He is still attacking equal rights for minorities he does not like, flat out and any excuses only function in the minds of his defenders and followers.

[cbayer]

35. Agree that his history is not at all helpful in making the argument that there

is some change going on. But do you think he is incapable of moving away from the position he held in Argentina? Do you think there may be a slim ray of hope that he is doing so?

[Bluenorthwest]

38. I think even the worst are capable of change, but I also think it is offensive to pretend such

change has already occurred while the person in question is still engaged in bigoted dogmas and sermons attacking the same people he has always attacked. His language in Argentina was horrible.
It is lovely to look for the slim ray of hope, but it is the opposite of lovely to demand that change has come, that ray is shining, when it is not.
He calls my family a product of Satan, people here endorse him. If it was your group he attacked, how would those praising him make you feel? As a community here, that's the only meaningful question. Are we doing to others as we'd have done to us? Or not?

[cbayer]

39. Agree. There has been no change to date other than some change in tone.

The ray has not shone but there may some dissipation of the cloud cover.

We shall see.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Thanks cbayer, for those words.

I wish Francis was not exclusionary, of course I agree with his economic rhetoric and want his actions to match them, I'd love it if he had not decided my people are the enemy. If he looked at what our community did when AIDs struck, he'd be looking at saintly actions by so many people he holds in contempt.
This morning I am thinking of the faith of my mother, which goes like this : God is love.

[cbayer]

46. There is no greater testament to the goodness of people than

what took place in the 1980's within the GLBT community.

He need look no further than that to understand what family is really all about.

[Katashi_itto]

31. Misleading title, designed for the Anti-Pope crowd.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. I'd say it just bothers the anti gay crowd, for they love to hide their prejudices behind dogma

and costumes and props. Francis says my family is an attack on God that comes from the devil. If you don't want to hear him criticized, tell him to stop with the hate speech. This is a political forum. We trade in facts here.

[Katashi_itto]

36. Got it. Pope is evil. Everyone that likes him is evil. Your a stanch defender of gay rights

and everyone that doesnt support your views is anti-gay. Yep.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Excuse me but I said no such thing. I stated facts, he is opposed to our rights

Francis says horrible things about gay families. Those who defend that crap are in fact defending anti gay policies. Evil is the sort of word Francis uses about gay people, he says we are a 'destructive attack on God's plan that comes from the author of evil'. If he said that about your group, would you feel as comfortable with that rhetoric as you do when it is targeting others? Have you heard the phrase 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'? I know the guy who said that did not attack gays, and many feel he was negligent so they correct Jesus, Francis rushes to make additions to the Gospel to suit his own prejudices, but Jesus said 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself'. Not 'except for some rights you should have, that some neighbors should not have'.
Francis is the one who calls us evil, not the other way around. You have no right to put words in my mouth. None. I am your equal, not matter what Francis tells you. Learn to live with it.

[Katashi_itto]

43. Wow. Umm who said you aren't equal?

Just wow. Your perception of things...

You enjoy your day

[fadedrose]

44. Sacred? Not so much. Lawful? Yes

Most people don't regard their marriage as sacred anymore. Hardly anything is. But it is a lawful agreement to be together and stay together, with legal
consequences if one or both of the partners are not loyal to their legally taken oaths.

If marriage was a sacred institution, divorce would be impossible.

[Puzzledtraveller]

45. That's the pope I know!!

I knew he was in there somewhere.