A Challenge To the No Fly List

[rhett o rick]

by Ian Welsh 2013 DECEMBER 3

http://www.ianwelsh.net/a-challenge-to-the-no-fly-list/#comments

The principles of justice are simpler:

You have the right to see the evidence against you, and to face your accusers;
You can’t be punished without a trial.
The no-fly violates both these principles: you are punished without a trial, and you have no right to see the evidence against you. Even if we assume that in extremis the government might have to forbid someone to fly because they pose a danger to the flight, one can’t make a case for a multiple-year ban, at best it should be a few days while the government puts together the case and takes you to court.

Any country that does not allow people to see the evidence against them, face their accusers and have a trial before punishment is de-facto an unjust, unfree country.

It's time to clean up the unjust "No Fly List".

[MADem]

1. Good luck.

I was hassled for the entire Bush administration. I must have been on some sort of "Jerk this person's chain" list, because it happened EVERY time I set foot in an airport.

The minute the cabinet changed after Obama took office, it was like MAGIC. I NEVER get "gate raped" (pardon the term, that's what happens when TSA pulls you aside, handles you roughly and abusively, and tears apart every item in your possession) anymore, either.

It was so bad I used to send my suitcase ahead, just because I didn't want to have to deal with re-packing it after having my shit scattered all over the place. If I had a choice between flying and driving, I drove. Now, I'm flying again.

[rhett o rick]

2. I am glad that you are not getting hassled but I am surprised.

I wouldnt think that they would change their list just because a new president is elected. But something happened and I am glad you arent getting hassled at the airport. My wife has been hassled a few times and the part that bothers her the most is that they drag her aside and leave her luggage where it sets.
Have a happy holidays.

[MADem]

3. Ted Kennedy--the late Senator--got the same treatment.

In fact, someone in Bush's regime moved him over to the NO FLY list briefly.

That wasn't too smart a move; Ted called Bush and told him to cut the shit. It's not "on" to impede a legislator as he goes about the business of government.

I didn't have any such protections, though.

I don't know WHY, specifically, my lot changed--all I can tell you is that it did. And the difference was noticeable.

Your wife might want to UPS her stuff ahead--it's easier than dealing with those jerks tossing one's drawers and so forth all over the place.

[Glassunion]

4. Your lot may have changed because they did clean up the list

a few years back.

[MADem]

10. They must have done it right after the 2008 inauguration, because that's when I noticed the change.

I'd go get my ticket, see the "checkerboard" or the OCR "SSSSSSSSSSSS" or the big red slash on the thing, and say "Oh geez, not this shit again." I got skilled in knowing how a person was marked for security screening, depending on the airline (they all had their own little 'mark'). I used to use my military identification rather than a license, just to shame them and point out their stupidity--it worked, to some extent.

That all stopped in 2009, and I've traveled a lot in the intervening years...and it has never happened again. It went from 100% harassment to none.

[Glassunion]

13. I don't recall the details, but the ACLU was pressuring them to remove duplicates and

false positives for quite some time. The list was IIRC over 1 million names, so they were spending quite a bit of time cross referencing in order to filter the crap out.

[MADem]

14. Well, I think a lot of rank stupidity went into making that list.

I have a lot of world travel in my background, but anyone looking into the reasons for my travel would see immediately that there was nothing "nefarious" about it, particularly since Uncle Sam paid for a shitload of it. It didn't stop them from hassling me mercilessly for nearly eight years, though!

[Dawson Leery]

20. An unsuprising stab in the back from the Bush's/Neo-Cons.

Teddy used his seniority and goodwill to help usher NCLB into law (a mistake as are all dealings with the Bush's/Neo-Cons).

[MADem]

21. Yeah, it was a low blow, but in some quarters, anyway, I think it was a tide-turner.

People pretty much were putting up with a lot of shit at the airport and not fighting back, because, ya know, Terra Terra Terra, Nahn Wun Wun changed ever-thang, etc. When Ted went ballistic (and he got righteous from what I understand), that was the start of of the complaints about "TSA GATE RAPE"--the unseemly patting, grabbing, tossing, shaking down, interminable questions, etc.

[jazzimov]

9. It happened to me, too. I fly a lot for work,

and when Bush was in office I was always "marked". I would try to check in at the kiosk, and I was always referred to the counter. When the person at the counter pulled me up, they always had to call Homeland Security. They would verify my license and my birthday. Then they would put a special mark on my ticket, and when I tried to go through the security line the TSA agent would see that, say "uh-oh, and then pull me out of line for extra scrutiny.

When I flew on vacation with my aunt, I even warned her we needed to get to the airport early because I would be pulled out of line. She laughed and thought I was kidding until it happened.

Then, after Obama was elected, it magically stopped. It hasn't happened since. I thought it was odd, but I noticed (especially since I hated Bush so much).

[MADem]

11. You, too! Your experience mirrors my own, exactly. Right down to the "uh oh" and sidelong glance!

Ain't that peculiar!

[countryjake]

12. I was going to respond earlier, when I first saw your comments...

but I think that you may be on to something.

I don't do a lot of flying, but every time I did, back during the Shrub yrs, they always pulled me out for extra roughhousing, making me dump my pocketbook and going thru my carry-on, (once, in 2008, they even did it right at the gate, as I was boarding. I had to repack everything just so I could get it zipped back up to get on the plane). I always assumed it was because I only had a one-way ticket, as I was flying home to see my old mother and the visits were always open-ended.

You are so right, that all ended like magic in 2009...every year my tickets were all still one-way, but I've never been pulled aside again.

[MADem]

15. It was irritating as hell. It's bad enough to get lousy treatment for OTHER reasons

that are down to simple, stupid human prejudices, but when ya get the "shake down" from the gubmint EVERY damn time ya go through the line, it starts to wear on one.

You'd think those geniuses could figure out that, golly gee, you always go one way to the same place, stay for a while, and then go one way home again. A pattern DOES eventually discern itself!

[countryjake]

5. Amy had Anya Bernstein on Democracy Now this Monday...

talking all about Rahinah Ibrahim's landmark case.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/12/2/watching_the_watch_list_landmark_case

[rhett o rick]

6. Thank you very much for that. nm

[countryjake]

7. After all of these yrs...

it's about time her case is brought to light!

[rhett o rick]

8. I had hoped, maybe naively, that getting a Democrat for president would end this nonsense. nm

[MADem]

16. It did for me--and I know I'm not the only one.

Visa revocation is a separate issue from the no-fly list.

[rhett o rick]

17. Again, I am glad it has worked out for you, but I think we should go farther.

The names should be public. And the government should only be able to have you on the list for 1 month unless they can prove in court that you are a danger. No punishing people without a trial.

[MADem]

18. The names should be public? Really?

So, if Freddy Terrist wants to bring something that goes boom on a plane, and the cops are watching him, all he's gotta do is check the list, go "Ooops--I'm on the list" and send his wife or his cousin or some criminal buddy ` instead?

I think people should be able to write to TSA and challenge their status, but I don't think the "list should be made public." That's just not a smart law enforcement tactic. I mean, once they tell you you ain't getting on that plane, it's pretty clear what your "status" is--the issue is that there's no mechanism to resolve the status, at least not in a clear-cut fashion. If you're accused, you should be permitted to protest your placement on the list, and resolve any questions the government has. The difficulty is that there's no standardized review process, at least not that anyone knows about.

[rhett o rick]

19. Ok I will concede the "made public" remedy, but at least everyone on the list should know they are

on the list, and finding out when you try to board a plane doesnt cut it.

If "Freddy" is a terrorist, he should be incarcerated. If he is a suspected terrorist then he can be on a secret TSA list. But he should not be denied any rights afforded by the Constitution. If the TSA has a case, they need to present it thru a formal process. If time is of the essence, they can go to a judge and get a temporary (1 month) restraining document to keep Freddy off planes. But at the end of the time, they must allow him all his rights unless they prove their case in a process where Freddy gets a fair hearing. The current process is that citizens are guilty until proven innocent.

[MADem]

22. People who are subjects or targets of grand jury investigations aren't warned of their status.

The whole idea is to catch the perpetrator in the act.

That said, if you're on the list and there's no investigation associated with your name, you should be able to protest your presence on that list and receive an explanation.

I don't think that the government will EVER run round to everyone on their list and tell them something like "Gee, you're on this list because you have a similar name and hometown to known terra suspect Abu Ganakilya." That's just not going to happen. They need to vet the names that go on the list, and dump them off it if they're cleared, as quickly as possible. They probably need to dump the contractors doing this work and hire GSA pensioned employees. It costs more, but you get what you pay for.