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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:41 PM Dec 2013

Florida Cop Arrested For Wearing ‘Anonymous’ Mask Warns ‘There’s A War Coming’

By Scott Kaufman
Friday, December 6, 2013 16:01 EST

The police officer arrested for refusing to remove his “Anonymous” mask at an anti-Obamacare rally gave an interview to Red Pill Philosophy and WeAreChange in which he said that “there’s a war coming” and “it’s time to fight.”

Ericson Harrell wore the Guy Fawkes mask, he said, because it’s a “symbol of protest.”

“I always keep my mask in my truck, my cape in the truck, the flag in truck and everything,” he said. “So I put on the mask and the cape, grabbed the flag, and I stood on the corner.”

Eventually a female police officer confronted him, at which point he asserted “my right to free speech,” and tried to convince the officer that the anti-masking statute didn’t apply to him, because that statute “was not put into place for peaceful protests, not for figures just standing on the side of the road trying to express their first amendment rights.”

After her supervisor showed up, he was arrested for refusing to remove his mask or identify himself.

MORE...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/06/florida-cop-arrested-for-wearing-anonymous-mask-warns-theres-a-war-coming/

212 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Florida Cop Arrested For Wearing ‘Anonymous’ Mask Warns ‘There’s A War Coming’ (Original Post) Purveyor Dec 2013 OP
How bored he must be BeyondGeography Dec 2013 #1
i was thinking he needs to get laid Heather MC Dec 2013 #3
You know what? I think you have hit the old nail right on the head. pangaia Dec 2013 #96
I wish we had "like" buttons for posts like yours and Heather's.... TheDebbieDee Dec 2013 #101
How's this as a substitute. pangaia Dec 2013 #132
"so they don't reproduce" is in BOLD, and very important nolabels Dec 2013 #161
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #148
The right wing media, funded by Kochs and Murdochs, have been stoking this. Cooley Hurd Dec 2013 #2
Not to mention he needs all his weapons impounded Heather MC Dec 2013 #4
Not just the "right wing media," either. MADem Dec 2013 #191
That clown doesn't have both oars in the water. lpbk2713 Dec 2013 #5
I know why he's protesting the ACA. I don't agree with him. Wonder if he listened to Beck or Rush... freshwest Dec 2013 #35
But he does have a cape. rug Dec 2013 #40
And lotsa guns. (nt) Paladin Dec 2013 #49
Anyone concerned about wearing a Guy Fawkes mask being a crime? Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #6
I am. Throd Dec 2013 #7
I second that painesghost Dec 2013 #26
Wearing masks is against the law in many municipalities, except on particular nights of exception, MADem Dec 2013 #90
no but two things here arely staircase Dec 2013 #8
I wouldn't call that thing a left wing symbol. A lot of those people who MADem Dec 2013 #91
you have a point arely staircase Dec 2013 #129
That's it, exactly--and the "ironic" crowd who are too cool for politics, and political MADem Dec 2013 #133
This is the New DU after all. RC Dec 2013 #9
No kidding. nt woo me with science Dec 2013 #32
To say nothing of Paulbots and assorted libertarians, concerned about their own freedoms, but not MADem Dec 2013 #114
Good point. davidn3600 Dec 2013 #11
I don't understand why Guy Fawkes was chosen in the first place. NobodyHere Dec 2013 #13
V for Vendetta. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #16
Ironically, Fawkes were turned in by an anonymous letter. Coyotl Dec 2013 #21
The first terrorist I think. Ava Gadro Dec 2013 #34
he was chosen for a stupid movie ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #50
opinions, opinions, opinions demwing Dec 2013 #60
wow... that's deep... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #77
lather, rinse, repeat /nt demwing Dec 2013 #147
Everyone's an expert you say? Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #62
i picked the movie because THAT is when the mask took off in popularity ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #76
Your memory is accurate--many more people know the film than are even aware that it was based on a MADem Dec 2013 #87
Do either of you know who made the mask popular and why? Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #89
I'm sure if we wait long enough, you'll give us your view of it. MADem Dec 2013 #93
I linked to that above Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #107
No need. Twice is more than sufficient. nt MADem Dec 2013 #112
Careful... 99Forever Dec 2013 #103
Yes, those 'evil' authoritarians...! MADem Dec 2013 #113
You're God Damned right EVIL. 99Forever Dec 2013 #115
They'll meet the same fate that all of us do. MADem Dec 2013 #119
WTF? 99Forever Dec 2013 #121
It's not a "comeback" but how interesting that you regard it as such. MADem Dec 2013 #135
Speaking of "revealing"... 99Forever Dec 2013 #139
What I am is a Democrat who is interested in seeing more Democrats, and fewer Republicans, elected MADem Dec 2013 #142
Oh NOES! 99Forever Dec 2013 #143
I'm enjoying your "performance." MADem Dec 2013 #146
What I'm enjoying... 99Forever Dec 2013 #150
Gee, yet another gratuitous insult...! That's apparently all you've got! MADem Dec 2013 #151
Only an insult to those who fit the bill. 99Forever Dec 2013 #154
Fit what bill? Being a Democrat who supports Democrats for election? That's a crime? MADem Dec 2013 #155
The difference between you and me... 99Forever Dec 2013 #156
Yes, I support "faux" Dems like Elizabeth Warren, Ed Markey, and MADem Dec 2013 #163
You excel at setting up strawmen then whipping their ass. 99Forever Dec 2013 #174
Awww, you mad, bro? MADem Dec 2013 #178
Erm, it's based on a comic. joshcryer Dec 2013 #65
On, now everyone's an expert Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #66
Don't be jealous I can link paren' wiki links. ;P joshcryer Dec 2013 #68
I was faster to the link Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #69
Whenever DU screws up you can pop these codes in: joshcryer Dec 2013 #71
no one wore the mask until after the movie... ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #75
That makes you look better Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #80
yeah... facts are a pesky little thing ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #81
LOL! Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #82
would you care to suggest an alternative ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #84
2008 Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #85
figures... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #86
Yup Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #88
yup indeed ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #95
If it makes you feel better Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #105
since you have no answer... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #108
And you're green Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #109
interesting retort... ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #111
IIRC it became popular after the Occupy movement took off, so 2011 and after. nt CJCRANE Dec 2013 #99
2008, Annonymous - Church of Scientology Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #104
More history, here.... MADem Dec 2013 #116
“We weren’t branding experts or anything,” - one of the best unintentionally funny things I've read KittyWampus Dec 2013 #171
That's because Warner Brothers started marketing them. joshcryer Dec 2013 #97
while that may be true ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #98
It's all because Guy Fawkes Day is their 4th of July. joshcryer Dec 2013 #100
i spend a great deal of time in the UK ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #106
actually the graphic novel that movie was based on is terrific, and a critique of Thatcherism's villager Dec 2013 #127
and yet the comic was NOT the inspiration for the ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #130
well, the comic was the inspiration for the movie, and the mask design is straight villager Dec 2013 #138
the film is an adaptation, not an original work. So just like the many plays and Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #187
last time... without the movie the mask is non-existent. ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #197
Symbols take on new meanings all the time. The Swastika used to mean something very different. sibelian Dec 2013 #206
a comic book arely staircase Dec 2013 #72
People who would rather key their "edgy" protests off of a Warner Brothers film, without MADem Dec 2013 #78
Many southern states Feral Child Dec 2013 #15
But the purpose NOW is to identify those who take part in protests. woo me with science Dec 2013 #30
You're right, of course. Jackpine Radical Dec 2013 #53
Excellent point. Feral Child Dec 2013 #54
and apparantly unstable cops nt arely staircase Dec 2013 #73
yep Joe Shlabotnik Dec 2013 #18
Stunning isn't it? Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #22
It's part of a bundle of anti-KKK statutes passed in the early 1950s: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #23
That is not the purpose now, woo me with science Dec 2013 #31
I think saying "A war is coming" puts his behavior in applicable clause 3. hootinholler Dec 2013 #63
Would fall under (4) too. joshcryer Dec 2013 #67
No its not. onenote Dec 2013 #120
FL is a "stop and identify state." joshcryer Dec 2013 #159
Sorry, but I'm not wrong. onenote Dec 2013 #182
Ah! that dreaded Secret Directive Z, which requires inconvenient citizens to don Guy Fawkes masks, struggle4progress Dec 2013 #128
"The corporate state" being, in this case, the Affordable Care Act muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #169
Thanks for this relevant bit of history Hekate Dec 2013 #41
Thanks - that section 155 is crucial (on edit: also arrested for obstructing traffic) muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #170
Anybody can get a Guy Fawkes mask these days... icymist Dec 2013 #24
+10000 Thank you. woo me with science Dec 2013 #33
Thank you. That was my first thought. nt Mojorabbit Dec 2013 #56
Maybe not cops, but the people who affect those things aren't necessarily lefties, either. nt MADem Dec 2013 #83
No kidding. 99Forever Dec 2013 #92
YES, that is my BIGGEST concern about this story. snot Dec 2013 #203
Congrats to the female officer, she is a professional. nt bluestate10 Dec 2013 #10
Professional in that she enforced a law. Too bad the law is an abomination onenote Dec 2013 #12
Here's a nice photo from Florida in 1951, the year the law was put on the books struggle4progress Dec 2013 #25
I have no problem with criminalizing masks when used in connection with an effort to intimidate onenote Dec 2013 #28
Read the law: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #29
and how did the cop violate this law? onenote Dec 2013 #36
I wasn't there. If the matter goes to trial, a judge would have the jury decide the facts struggle4progress Dec 2013 #45
Good luck getting a jury to convict anyone under these facts warrant46 Dec 2013 #55
Dunno. That might very well be. But I myself seldom think I really know the facts from a news story struggle4progress Dec 2013 #118
Very astute of you warrant46 Dec 2013 #164
My comment to you really has more to do with news stories: when there are several dozen struggle4progress Dec 2013 #194
They're still not listening, are they? Hekate Dec 2013 #42
Which provision of 876.155 was this guy supposedly violating. onenote Dec 2013 #44
876.155 (3) and (4) are easily, trivally, argued. joshcryer Dec 2013 #70
No way that (4) applies as you describe onenote Dec 2013 #117
FL is a "stop and identify" state. joshcryer Dec 2013 #160
He was also charged with obstruction of traffic muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #173
"They would not listen. They're not listening still. Perhaps they never will" struggle4progress Dec 2013 #46
That applies to far too many people. randome Dec 2013 #110
LOL he keeps his cape in his truck tkmorris Dec 2013 #14
Too bad there's no phone booths anymore. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Dec 2013 #17
"Who is that Mysterious Masked Protester?" CJCRANE Dec 2013 #58
I think Porta-potties are the new phone booths for the modern era... nt MADem Dec 2013 #137
Lol..Even better. Cha Dec 2013 #202
Hey, as long as Time Warner made a profit off of selling the mask, nyquil_man Dec 2013 #19
I'm fairly sure you have to indentify yourself to a police officer. gvstn Dec 2013 #20
What justification is there for a cop to demand a person engaged in lawful conduct onenote Dec 2013 #37
I don't know but I always heard you have to tell them your name. gvstn Dec 2013 #39
as the material you cite indicate: absent reasonable suspicion that you're engaging in a criminal ac onenote Dec 2013 #43
You can call it 'peaceful protest' and then rob a store on your way out. randome Dec 2013 #52
Then wearing a Halloween mask during a parade should be illegal onenote Dec 2013 #122
Most of those ordinances have a provision for festive occasions, like MADem Dec 2013 #153
and if you're standing on the street holding a protest sign onenote Dec 2013 #157
If your sign says "There's a war coming" I think a reasonable person might think otherwise. MADem Dec 2013 #162
All the "The End Is Nigh" placard holders were intimidating you, were they? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #172
Wow, snide much? "The end is nigh" is religious, "There's a war coming" suggests guns and ammo. MADem Dec 2013 #175
Fuck me, you're criticising someone else for being snide in this thread? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #177
I return a volley, when served. MADem Dec 2013 #181
Get over yourself - I don't have any particular opinion about you muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #183
Oh I am "over myself"--that was just an observation, one that MADem Dec 2013 #185
He didn't have such a sign. onenote Dec 2013 #180
I protested against the same war, and I carried signs as well. MADem Dec 2013 #184
Bottom Line: the cop did not act properly in asking Guy Fawkes to identify himself onenote Dec 2013 #188
Are you the cop? If you're not, you can't insist that you know MADem Dec 2013 #189
So when the cops arrested Occupy protesters for wearing masks onenote Dec 2013 #198
Aren't you just the sweetest thing! MADem Dec 2013 #199
Yes I am onenote Dec 2013 #200
But you haven't demonstrated that this arrest has anything to do with either of those. MADem Dec 2013 #201
You haven't pointed to anything that suggests that the constitutional standard onenote Dec 2013 #204
And you haven't pointed to anything save your opinion -- based on an MADem Dec 2013 #205
I see exactly how it works onenote Dec 2013 #207
The cop cites her judgment. That's all the "proof" she needs. MADem Dec 2013 #209
Not every exercise of "judgment" is the exercise of good judgment. onenote Dec 2013 #210
But that cop wasn't this cop, and you weren't there, either. MADem Dec 2013 #211
You weren't there either. onenote Dec 2013 #212
I believe there was a Supreme Court case about this issue (identifying yourself to police) Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #64
Not exactly onenote Dec 2013 #123
Yes, that case Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #208
A little Florida history, for those who want to froth and foam about Florida's mask law: struggle4progress Dec 2013 #27
Those photos are chilling. HappyMe Dec 2013 #59
taking up arms against socialism is almost mainstream in right-wing Republican circles now - pumped Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #38
Exactly.. sendero Dec 2013 #165
Recently people have challagened no masks laws in federal Court gerogie2 Dec 2013 #47
Link? onenote Dec 2013 #57
SPLC gerogie2 Dec 2013 #168
Easily distinguished onenote Dec 2013 #179
With or without his mask CJCRANE Dec 2013 #48
A Florida cop Carolina Dec 2013 #51
There is plenty of racism and bigotism here. darkangel218 Dec 2013 #134
whatever Florida cop says to you Enrique Dec 2013 #167
How many other Florida cops think there's a war coming? Baitball Blogger Dec 2013 #61
I'm curious WHY he thinks there is a war coming? StrictlyRockers Dec 2013 #74
Thats what Alex Jones tells them. darkangel218 Dec 2013 #136
You know, this may not be right, JimboBillyBubbaBob Dec 2013 #79
I'm wondering ronnie624 Dec 2013 #94
... He told police he was protesting Obamacare .... struggle4progress Dec 2013 #124
Still no quotes on what drives him to protest. ronnie624 Dec 2013 #125
He probably got a call on his walkie-talkie ucrdem Dec 2013 #126
I remember seeing that film in Cambridge MA when it first came out. MADem Dec 2013 #141
^^ Wow. Beautiful print. Highly recommended ^^ ucrdem Dec 2013 #149
I can't believe I saw that film over forty years ago! MADem Dec 2013 #152
Armed man, in mask, wearing cape, warns folk of coming war, says it's time to fight, as a protest struggle4progress Dec 2013 #140
He doesn't mention "Obamacare" in his interview. ronnie624 Dec 2013 #158
... He told police he was protesting Obamacare ... struggle4progress Dec 2013 #192
That's what the author of the article said, not him. ronnie624 Dec 2013 #193
So we agree rather limited information is available in the reports struggle4progress Dec 2013 #196
This struck me as well. salin Dec 2013 #144
I stand corrected per the local newspaper story salin Dec 2013 #145
Maybe he doesn't really know what he's protesting CJCRANE Dec 2013 #166
+ struggle4progress Dec 2013 #195
Revelation of the method? ucrdem Dec 2013 #102
Moron. Well, in his case, moran. catbyte Dec 2013 #131
Good thing he forgot to put on the costume in a phone booth randr Dec 2013 #176
Some cops love wearing their balaclavas JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2013 #186
Those are French police, not Florida police. MADem Dec 2013 #190
 

Heather MC

(8,084 posts)
3. i was thinking he needs to get laid
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:01 PM
Dec 2013

He keeps a mask, a cape, and a flag in the car
ummm ok yea you
You never know when looting will break out, don't want to be without you mask and cape. and the flag of course is for legally claiming the newly found property as your own

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
96. You know what? I think you have hit the old nail right on the head.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:53 PM
Dec 2013

THAT is repubs biggest problem.
The truth has been right in front of us, so big we couldn't see it.
They need to get laid. Using birth control of their choice, of course, so they don't reproduce.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
161. "so they don't reproduce" is in BOLD, and very important
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:23 AM
Dec 2013

After all, that would only compound the problem for everyone concerned

Response to Heather MC (Reply #3)

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
2. The right wing media, funded by Kochs and Murdochs, have been stoking this.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 06:46 PM
Dec 2013

Any blood that is shed will be on THEIR hands!

This police officer should be removed from duty immediately - he is clearly unstable.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
191. Not just the "right wing media," either.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 01:00 PM
Dec 2013

The "beyond right wing" fringe media, the conspiracy sites, and the Paulbot Brigade are having a field day with this.

I think the guy is off the rails, as well.

lpbk2713

(42,757 posts)
5. That clown doesn't have both oars in the water.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:06 PM
Dec 2013



And he sure as hell doesn't belong in law enforcement.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
35. I know why he's protesting the ACA. I don't agree with him. Wonder if he listened to Beck or Rush...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:24 AM
Dec 2013

Just sayin'

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
6. Anyone concerned about wearing a Guy Fawkes mask being a crime?
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:06 PM
Dec 2013

It's not usually right-wing cops wearing them.

painesghost

(91 posts)
26. I second that
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:31 PM
Dec 2013

I second that. I'd really need to know all the details, but just wearing a mask at a political rally shouldn't be a crime. It be like outlawing the wearing of the Burqa at political rallies which I can see some rightwing nut using this incident to push for.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
90. Wearing masks is against the law in many municipalities, except on particular nights of exception,
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:24 PM
Dec 2013

like Halloween. NYC is one large city that has a "no mask" law in place.

Masks are common in commission of robberies, you see.

The origin of anti-mask laws in some parts of the country have to do with the KKK.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
8. no but two things here
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:14 PM
Dec 2013

One is that the RW seems to be trying to rip the symbol off from the LW. Two is that cops shouldn't be blabering about revolution. They have a first amendment right to do so but they don't have a first amendment right to be cops. Sort of like that chief of police shooting guns and fantasizing about killing his "libtard" enemies on youtube. He has an absolute right to say those things but no inalienable right to be chief of police.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
91. I wouldn't call that thing a left wing symbol. A lot of those people who
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:27 PM
Dec 2013

like that mask are Rand Paul/Ayn Rand/libertarian assholes. It's all about the "revolution" with them, and their "freedom" to not have to give a shit about people in need of a social safety net, not adherence to a left wing philosophy.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
129. you have a point
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:49 PM
Dec 2013

I thinks the Guy Faulks mask crowd is sort of where the rw libertarian weirdo meets the lw anarchist weirdo on the political continuum.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
9. This is the New DU after all.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:15 PM
Dec 2013

DLC, 3rd Way, DINO's New Democrats and anyone else that thinks they are Democrats because they voted for someone with a (D) by their name.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
114. To say nothing of Paulbots and assorted libertarians, concerned about their own freedoms, but not
Reply to RC (Reply #9)
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:54 PM
Dec 2013

giving a single shit about anyone else. They tend to not vote for anyone, they just criticize those who do.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
21. Ironically, Fawkes were turned in by an anonymous letter.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:12 PM
Dec 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

.... He travelled to Spain to seek support for a Catholic rebellion in England but was unsuccessful. He later met Thomas Wintour, with whom he returned to England.

Wintour introduced Fawkes to Robert Catesby, who planned to assassinate King James I and restore a Catholic monarch to the throne. The plotters secured the lease to an undercroft beneath the House of Lords, and Fawkes was placed in charge of the gunpowder they stockpiled there. Prompted by the receipt of an anonymous letter, the authorities searched Westminster Palace during the early hours of 5 November, and found Fawkes guarding the explosives. Over the next few days, he was questioned and tortured, and eventually he broke. Immediately before his execution on 31 January, Fawkes jumped from the scaffold where he was to be hanged and broke his neck, thus avoiding the agony of the mutilation that followed.

Fawkes became synonymous with the Gunpowder Plot, the failure of which has been commemorated in England since 5 November 1605. His effigy is traditionally burned on a bonfire, commonly accompanied by a firework display.

............

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
50. he was chosen for a stupid movie
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:09 AM
Dec 2013

that glorified a religious nutter. people that wear that mask in VAST majority have no idea who he was or what he stood for or what he was trying to do when captured.

if it's in a history book, nobody knows anything about it. bastardize a story for a MOVIE with a popular starlet in it and all of a sudden everyone's an expert... of the fiction.

sP

 

demwing

(16,916 posts)
60. opinions, opinions, opinions
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:58 AM
Dec 2013

We all think our own smell fresh and sweet, while those we disagree with stink like rotten meat.

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
62. Everyone's an expert you say?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:03 AM
Dec 2013
he was chosen for a stupid movie that glorified a religious nutter. people that wear that mask in VAST majority have no idea who he was or what he stood for or what he was trying to do when captured.

if it's in a history book, nobody knows anything about it. bastardize a story for a MOVIE with a popular starlet in it and all of a sudden everyone's an expert... of the fiction.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta

Book 1: Europe After the Reign
On Guy Fawkes Night in 1997 London, a young woman, Evey Hammond, who is walking to a friends house, comes across two men who are actually members of the state secret police, called "the Finger." Preparing to rape and kill her, the Fingermen are dispatched by V, a cloaked anarchist wearing a Guy Fawkes mask, who remotely detonates explosives at the Houses of Parliament before bringing Evey to his contraband-filled underground lair, the "Shadow Gallery". Evey tells V her life story, which reveals that a global nuclear war in the late 1980s has since triggered the rise of England's fascist, white supremacist government, Norsefire.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
76. i picked the movie because THAT is when the mask took off in popularity
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:52 AM
Dec 2013

so yes, the mask is worn because of the movie... not the comic.

sP

MADem

(135,425 posts)
87. Your memory is accurate--many more people know the film than are even aware that it was based on a
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:19 PM
Dec 2013

comic book...and of course, the comic book referenced an historical figure -- even fewer are aware of what he was all about, I would wager.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
93. I'm sure if we wait long enough, you'll give us your view of it.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:32 PM
Dec 2013

What I know is what my own lying eyes have told me--that the mask, which is licensed by Warner Brothers, Inc., was rarely if ever seen before the V for Vendetta film (a Warner Brothers production) came out.

Now you can make of that what you will. Or you can read this full history, provided courtesy of our pals at Wikipedia, where they say pretty much the same thing I am saying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_mask


Since the release in 2006 of the film V for Vendetta, the use of stylised "Guy Fawkes" masks, with moustache and pointed beard, has become widespread internationally among groups protesting against politicians, banks and financial institutions. The masks both conceal the identity and protect the face of individuals and demonstrate their commitment to a shared cause.[9][10]

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
103. Careful...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:20 PM
Dec 2013

... you're giving the Authoritarians A Sadz that will quickly turn to A Madz.

They absolutely HATE anything adopted by the 99%.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
113. Yes, those 'evil' authoritarians...!
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:47 PM
Dec 2013


The only people thrilled about the "adoption" of a symbol manufactured for the benefit of the profit margin of Warner Brothers, Incorporated are the shareholders of that stock.

But hey...fight the power, at $10.52 plus shipping, on sale!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/121085117456?lpid=82

I guess no one wants to pay $24.95 for the things, anymore!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
135. It's not a "comeback" but how interesting that you regard it as such.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:11 PM
Dec 2013

A bit revealing, that remark.

I regarded it as a conversation--you were looking for a contest, I guess.

Well, gee, you can be "the winner" if you'd like. No skin off my nose.

At the end of the day, though, ya can't take it with you, no matter if you're a materialist, or not. Yelling at me and calling my observations "stupid" won't change that.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
142. What I am is a Democrat who is interested in seeing more Democrats, and fewer Republicans, elected
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:35 PM
Dec 2013

to public office.

In that regard I find myself in complete accord with the goals of this website.

And if we're to get all up in this "revealing" game, your ugly little post--which I will memorialize here for posterity--seems to imply that being a Democrat who likes to see Democrats elected to public office is a bad thing--isn't that curious?


99Forever
139. Speaking of "revealing"...
View profile
... what you are has been "revealed" around here a long time ago.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
150. What I'm enjoying...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 07:46 PM
Dec 2013

... is watching the Turd Way and all of it's minions circle the bowl. Enjoy the ride.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
151. Gee, yet another gratuitous insult...! That's apparently all you've got!
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:05 PM
Dec 2013

What clever repartee! Turds circling the bowl!

I hope you didn't strain yourself too much coming up with that one!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
155. Fit what bill? Being a Democrat who supports Democrats for election? That's a crime?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:54 PM
Dec 2013

All I ever see from you is bashing of Democrats. Oh, and petty little personal insults, like the ones you have been tossing at me in this thread.

You never talk about that campaign you volunteered for, or that rally for a Dem that you went to, or that contribution you made to a re-election campaign, or that GOTV work you did.

All I've ever seen from you could best be described as whinging. And that's on a good day.

You have a disruptive, petulant nature, and your pathetic little "poop referenced" insults are childish, as well.

And you wonder why you get Dangerfielded?

It will be interesting to see if you're able to keep a civil tongue in your head once the 2016 election season gets underway, assuming you stick around to drop your pearls of wisdom hither and yon.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
156. The difference between you and me...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:57 PM
Dec 2013

... is that you'll support anyone that says they are a "Democrat," I actually require them to BE Democrats.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
163. Yes, I support "faux" Dems like Elizabeth Warren, Ed Markey, and
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:35 AM
Dec 2013

Barack Obama. I GOTV for them too--what do you do, save whinge on the internet at people who do actual work to get Democrats elected?

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
174. You excel at setting up strawmen then whipping their ass.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:15 AM
Dec 2013

As such,I've had my fill of your DINO nonsense. You're gone, permanently. Bub bye.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
178. Awww, you mad, bro?
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:55 AM
Dec 2013

Come on back when you can tell me which Democrats you helped get elected to public office, now, you hear?

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
68. Don't be jealous I can link paren' wiki links. ;P
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:14 AM
Dec 2013

The comic is better than the movie though though the movie was faithful to the story.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
71. Whenever DU screws up you can pop these codes in:
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:21 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm

Just replace whatever character isn't working in the link with the HTML code (note once you press "preview" or "post" it goes away in the edit / text box, you have to do it right before posting and if you edit you have to put them back in).

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
81. yeah... facts are a pesky little thing
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:07 PM
Dec 2013

and yeah... the comic had such A HUGE following before the movie that EVERYONE was wearing that stupid mask. Sorry you don't like the timeline...

sP

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
95. yup indeed
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:44 PM
Dec 2013

comic from the 80's and movie from 2005... masks become popular in 2008 with protestors who know little of and care less for history... sound like my timeline bears out but you probably still don't like it.

sP

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
111. interesting retort...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:32 PM
Dec 2013

but bereft of anything useful as is the par for your responses in this thread. as you have nothing to add, good day.

sP

MADem

(135,425 posts)
116. More history, here....
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:07 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/design/2011/12/guy_fawkes_mask_how_anonymous_hacker_group_created_a_powerful_visual_brand.html


Six or eight people, Housh reckons, hashed out a press release. It read like the script to a movie trailer, so somebody proposed turning it into a video, combing Archive.org to dig up images of rolling clouds and ominous background music available under a Creative Commons license. They kept fiddling with the ending of the script, using Anonymous-associated phrases already in circulation. Another contributor proposed a conclusion: “We are Anonymous. We are legion. We do not forgive, we do not forget.” Pause. “Expect us.”


“Everyone in the channel erupts,” Housh recalls. “Like ‘Oh my god. You’ve done it. You have done it! We win this game.’ ” The script was fed into AT&T text-to-speech software, and became the video’s creepy voice-over. Next the group created a Web site. For a logo, they considered imagery that had been floating around 4Chan and elsewhere, including the headless suit-man. Someone—Housh says the person wishes to remain anonymous—suggested imposing that image over a U.N.-style globe logo. Then a question mark was added where the figure’s head should be. In what seems like a missed opportunity, the Anonymous logo did not appear anywhere in the video. “We weren’t branding experts or anything,” Housh explains.

Fair enough, but the video really is a fine bit of propaganda—with 4.6 million YouTube views—mixing the snotty but intimidating “hacker gang” vibe with rhetoric that not only transcended the nihilistic, but sounded rather righteous. Excited by their surprisingly large audience, participants in Anonymous’ anti-Scientology efforts decided to organize in-person protests—a challenge, since they were already being accused of various illegal activities. (The Church of Scientology eventually outed Housh, and pressed a variety of criminal charges against him; those were ultimately settled pretrial, but today he describes himself as “an internet activist who observes Anonymous”—not a member.)

The need to remain anonymous at live protests led the group to adopt its now-familiar mask depicting a highly stylized visage of Guy Fawkes, an early-17th-Century British figure who was executed following a foiled plot to assassinate King James I. Though Brits have long used effigies of Fawkes in their Guy Fawkes Night celebrations, this particular, cartoonish representation comes from the 1980s comic-book series, V for Vendetta: A vigilante character wore such a mask while overthrowing a totalitarian British government in an imagined dystopian future. In 2006, the series became a film. Also in 2006, the mask began to appear in a popular 4Chan meme called Epic Fail Guy. According to Housh, the suggestion to use the Fawkes mask as protest gear was almost immediate. But some Anons weren’t convinced that the Fawkes mask was right, so they made a short list of alternatives: a Batman mask, classic masquerade masks, a few others. “Then we called comics and costume shops, all over the world,” Housh says, checking availability and price, and the V mask won out: “It’s available, it’s cheap, and it’s in every city.” (The actual Fawkes had “nothing to do with it, for us,” Housh says.)



An unexpected windfall for Warner Brothers, Incorporated!
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
171. “We weren’t branding experts or anything,” - one of the best unintentionally funny things I've read
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 09:52 AM
Dec 2013

in a long time.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
97. That's because Warner Brothers started marketing them.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:58 PM
Dec 2013

Ironically the wearers, if they're buying the WB and not a "knock off" are paying the WB royalties.

I'm saying though that those familiar with the mask, particularly those on the left and in Occupy, tend to wear it as a representation of V, the comic. Most would recognize the irony of wearing a mask popularized in the mainstream, characterizing a politically neutral revenge seeking character, representing left-wing ideals.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
98. while that may be true
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:03 PM
Dec 2013

the comic must have also done little to promote the historical Guy Fawkes. it is comical, if you'll excuse the pun, that the historical person would NOT be chosen as a symbol...

i would still wager that the VAST VAST majority of those wearing them are simply doing so for reasons that even they would normally protest against as you point out.

sP

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
100. It's all because Guy Fawkes Day is their 4th of July.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:08 PM
Dec 2013

The symbolism had nothing to do with promoting Guy Fawkes' views.

Think of it more as if it was in the US he'd have don'd an Uncle Sam Mask.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
106. i spend a great deal of time in the UK
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:23 PM
Dec 2013

Fawkes was a religious nutter and terrorist. he got caught... he was dealt with in pretty heinous fashion. they still burn him in effigy to this day. the people who wear the mask don't identify with anything he stood for. and if they KNEW what he stood for i think they would be less likely to don the mask...

sP

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
127. actually the graphic novel that movie was based on is terrific, and a critique of Thatcherism's
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:41 PM
Dec 2013

...shadow, as the creators found a way to use a once disregarded medium, "comics," to make salient political and social satires, of the kind films and TV weren't doing.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
130. and yet the comic was NOT the inspiration for the
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:49 PM
Dec 2013

mass adoption of the V mask... without the movie it would have never happened.

oh well...

sP

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
138. well, the comic was the inspiration for the movie, and the mask design is straight
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:26 PM
Dec 2013

Which hasom the comic, which in turn based it on historical Guy Fawkes design.

And the comic probably wouldn't have happened except for the rightward drift of the west, since then.

Which has, of course, only gotten worse

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
187. the film is an adaptation, not an original work. So just like the many plays and
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:52 AM
Dec 2013

novels that were known to some as the authors first presented them many more came to know the filmed versions. This is true of say, Shakespeare's Henry the Fifth as well. The films got a wider audience than Will did at the Globe.
The origin of materials from an adapted piece is the source material, not the adaptation. Without the movie, the adoption of the mask would not have happened may be true, but far more true is the fact that without the comic there would not have been any movie of the story using the mask, which was drawn in the comic as it is designed in the film.......

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
197. last time... without the movie the mask is non-existent.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:58 PM
Dec 2013

my previous comment stands... i don't know why it is so hard for people to accept that the MOVIE is the reason for that laughable mask regardless of the ORIGIN of the mask... 99% of the people who put that damned thing on have no idea the history...

sP

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
206. Symbols take on new meanings all the time. The Swastika used to mean something very different.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:19 PM
Dec 2013

I knew gay people wearing pink triangles in the 80s. I wonder how those who were required to wear them, under very different circumstances, would feel about that?

Where new meanings arise, sometimes the subversion or conversion of old iconography paves the way.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
78. People who would rather key their "edgy" protests off of a Warner Brothers film, without
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:56 AM
Dec 2013

actually digging down to the root of the symbolism!

Those masks have made WB a pretty penny! They own the rights to that particular image!

Feral Child

(2,086 posts)
15. Many southern states
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:54 PM
Dec 2013

Georgia for sure, have statutes prohibiting wearing masks in public. I understand it to be in response to the Klan.

I don't know if it's ever been challenged.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
30. But the purpose NOW is to identify those who take part in protests.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:45 PM
Dec 2013

We live in a corporate surveillance state where dissenters are identified and surveilled, and facial recognition software will be an increasing part of that. Can't have inconvenient citizens wearing masks.

To the corporate One Percent, citizens exercising their Constitutional rights are the enemy.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
53. You're right, of course.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:14 AM
Dec 2013

I had the sudden thought, though that you can probably fake out FR sw with the right kind of makeup job.

Feral Child

(2,086 posts)
54. Excellent point.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:15 AM
Dec 2013

Evolution of abuse of a once justifiable concept. You're quite correct, the Surveillance Society is monstrous and dystopian.

Joe Shlabotnik

(5,604 posts)
18. yep
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 08:52 PM
Dec 2013

In Canada: Bill C-309, which bans the wearing of masks during a riot or other unlawful assembly became law on June 19, 2013. Those convicted of it face up to 10 years in prison. Determining whats an unlawful assembly nowadays is become awfully fast and loose.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
22. Stunning isn't it?
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:15 PM
Dec 2013

These are the people we're supposed to believe because, "we have more in common than we have differences".

Politics is not a team sport.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
23. It's part of a bundle of anti-KKK statutes passed in the early 1950s:
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:23 PM
Dec 2013

876.12 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public way.No person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road, highway, or other public way in this state.

876.13 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on public property.No person or persons shall in this state, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the state.

876.14 Wearing mask, hood, or other device on property of another.No person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing a mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, demand entrance or admission or enter or come upon or into the premises, enclosure, or house of any other person in any municipality or county of this state.

876.15 Wearing mask, hood, or other device at demonstration or meeting.No person or persons over 16 years of age, shall, while wearing a mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, hold any manner of meeting, make any demonstration upon the private property of another unless such person or persons shall have first obtained from the owner or occupier of the property his or her written permission to so do.

876.155 Applicability; ss. 876.12-876.15.The provisions of ss. 876.12-876.15 apply only if the person was wearing the mask, hood, or other device:
(1) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws or for the purpose of preventing the constituted authorities of this state or any subdivision thereof from, or hindering them in, giving or securing to all persons within this state the equal protection of the laws;
(2) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate, or interfere with any person because of the person’s exercise of any right secured by federal, state, or local law or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of persons from exercising any right secured by federal, state, or local law;
(3) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse, or harass any other person; or
(4) While she or he was engaged in conduct that could reasonably lead to the institution of a civil or criminal proceeding against her or him, with the intent of avoiding identification in such a proceeding.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
31. That is not the purpose now,
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:46 PM
Dec 2013

and you know it.

The purpose is to identify inconvenient citizens who dare protest the corporate state.

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
63. I think saying "A war is coming" puts his behavior in applicable clause 3.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:05 AM
Dec 2013


I agree that great effort is made to ensure protestors are identified, but I don't think this is one of those cases.

ETA: After watching the video, I don't think he had a sign saying that a war is coming, so maybe section 4 applies, but that one is wafer thin.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
67. Would fall under (4) too.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:13 AM
Dec 2013

"take off the mask" and identify would be a lawful order

doesn't mean he couldn't put it back on

onenote

(42,700 posts)
120. No its not.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:11 PM
Dec 2013

The Supreme Court has made it clear one doesn't have to identify oneself to the police unless there is a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. One can't circumvent that test by making the maintenance of one's anonymity itself a criminal act. You still need the reasonable suspicion of an intent to intimidate or engage in imminent criminal activity. Neither of which is present in a case where a lone individual engages in a politically themed protest wearing a Guy Fawkes mask.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
182. Sorry, but I'm not wrong.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:07 AM
Dec 2013

There are two relevant Florida statutes:

One is the "stop and frisk" law: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0900-0999/0901/Sections/0901.151.html

The other is the anti-mask law:http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html#FLORIDA

As required by Supreme Court precedent, both of these laws require the police to have reasonable suspicion that the person they are arresting was engaging in behavior intended to intimidate or otherwise was engaging in or about to engage in a criminal act. A single individual wearing a mask and engaging in a peaceful protest does not create the threshold predicate for the application of either of these laws, both under the plain text of those laws and as a matter of constitutional law.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
128. Ah! that dreaded Secret Directive Z, which requires inconvenient citizens to don Guy Fawkes masks,
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:43 PM
Dec 2013

so the corporate state can identify and arrest them! Many people simply pretend never to have heard of Secret Directive Z! They are liars! Everybody knows about Secret Directive Z!

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
169. "The corporate state" being, in this case, the Affordable Care Act
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 09:30 AM
Dec 2013

It's pretty obvious that struggle4progress is right - it was an anti-KKK law. Your claim that its 'purpose now' is to stop people protesting the ACA is just your point of view, and irrelevant to the police officer.

Section 155 seems to say that he should have been allowed to continue protesting the ACA, to me. The reports don't sound like he was doing about covered in the 4 cases given.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
170. Thanks - that section 155 is crucial (on edit: also arrested for obstructing traffic)
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 09:40 AM
Dec 2013

Apparently introduced after the constitutionality of 12-15 (plus 16, which gives exemptions for masks of Halloween, necessary gas masks, and so on) was challenged in 1980:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19801469393So2d1076_11314

I found that in a discussion from 2008 - precisely about the first major use of Guy Fawkes masks in Anonymous v. Scientology: https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/florida-and-other-states-mask-law-a-legal-perspective.194/

I'd say the police officer can say none of the 4 listed situations applies to him, so he should not have been forced to take off the mask.

On edit: re-reading the article, I notice he was also "charged with obstruction of traffic". That might make all the difference - if he was on the road interfering with traffic, rather than on the sidewalk, they may have had a valid reason to arrest him, which would then include the removal of the mask.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
33. +10000 Thank you.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:49 PM
Dec 2013

Can't have inconvenient citizens going unidentified.

Protesting, after all, is no longer a First Amendment right, but a sign of potential terrorism against the Corporate State.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
92. No kidding.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:32 PM
Dec 2013

Even tho this idiot clearly has no clue what the Guy Fawkes mask symbolizes, how very ugly authoritarian of a law does it have to be before some of the sheeple around here understand that it's ALL part of the fascist agenda to silence ANY protest from We the People.

Even stupid people have rights.

snot

(10,524 posts)
203. YES, that is my BIGGEST concern about this story.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:18 PM
Dec 2013

We should be arrested for committing crimes, not criminalizing what might be, but usually isn't, a pre-crime.

Occupiers were videotaped by police in the city where I live, so that in subsequent demonstrations, the police could target and pre-emptively arrest those that seemed most effective.

THAT is the real reason for the anti-mask statutes, i.m.h.o.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
12. Professional in that she enforced a law. Too bad the law is an abomination
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 07:19 PM
Dec 2013

Anti-masking laws are not something that I find worthy of applause. I doubt many DUers would be saluting the professionalism of a police officer that arrested any of these people.




Onedit: not sure if the image is showing. Its a photo of an Occupy Phoenix rally with several of the demonstrators wearing Guy Fawkes' masks.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
28. I have no problem with criminalizing masks when used in connection with an effort to intimidate
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:37 PM
Dec 2013

But there is no constitutional justification for criminalizing masks at a peaceful protest.

Would you support a law that made it illegal for you to hide your true identify on a website forum?

onenote

(42,700 posts)
36. and how did the cop violate this law?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:51 AM
Dec 2013

By being narrowly drawn, the law might survive constitutional challenge. But that makes the cop that demanded he take off his mask a bad cop, not a good cop.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
55. Good luck getting a jury to convict anyone under these facts
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:16 AM
Dec 2013

A good defense attorney would tear the prosecutor a new body orifice

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
164. Very astute of you
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:18 AM
Dec 2013

I was a little hasty in my assessment.

Even if the police do a capable thorough job of investigation, interviews and writing the details, there are always loose ends that complicate the case.

There are always 2 sides to every story. Even if one side is lame !!

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
194. My comment to you really has more to do with news stories: when there are several dozen
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:48 PM
Dec 2013

independently written pieces on a "story" like this, I may find enough details to be able to form a defensible opinion about what happened; but when there are only a handful of reports, it's much harder to find important details. Derivative reporting, based by stitching together other reports, is quite common, but it frequently introduces additional errors, and when a story "goes viral" the number of "reports," that contain pure fiction cut and paste from other erroneous "reports," grows enormously

At present, I'm still not sure whether the arrest was motivated by a violation of the Florida mask law, by a failure of the man to self-identify to police when asked, or by his interference with traffic. I have seen all these mentioned in one news report or other. Since reporters are paid to fill column-inches at a certain rate with certain deadlines, it would (of course) be unfair of me to criticize the early reports for leaving unanswered questions that might occur to readers later; but it also seems to me unreasonable to reach conclusions only from the early reports (because they are incomplete) or from highly-derivative later reports (because they might be filled errors uncritically cut and paste from other reports)

I currently have no idea whether one side or the other here is "lame." I'm personally not incredibly impressed by someone who fulminates vaguely while wearing a mask and cape and carrying a gun; and given the regular news stories here in the US about the wackos who decide random murder of strangers is the perfect solution for whatever-it-is-that-bothers-them, I'm not shocked and horrified that the police thought it a good idea to chat with him and find out who he was. To form an opinion about whether the arrest was justified or not, I'd want to know reliable details: if (as you suggest) the case is really lame, the DA won't prosecute, because the DA doesn't want to walk into court with a lame case and get the hairy eyeball from a judge who says Um, this is a really lame case! and tosses it immediately

Hekate

(90,674 posts)
42. They're still not listening, are they?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:37 AM
Dec 2013

Even DUers can be shockingly ignorant of historical context sometimes.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
70. 876.155 (3) and (4) are easily, trivally, argued.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:19 AM
Dec 2013

(4) is especially broad since violating it is simply failing to identify by ... removing the mask.

"engaged in conduct that could reasonably lead to the institution of a civil or criminal proceeding against her or him"

"You failed to remove the mask and identify with a lawful identify order."

(3) is a bit more tricky, "a war is coming" depends on the context and tone, video would make it easier to try in court

Cops do not fuck around with failure to identify that is their holy grail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

onenote

(42,700 posts)
117. No way that (4) applies as you describe
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:09 PM
Dec 2013

Applying it that way would be struck down instantaneously since it is the equivalent of making it a crime simply to wear a mask. And despite what some on this thread may think, the Supreme Court held that is unconstitutional.


And (3) doesn't apply for the simple fact that he didn't say that to the policewoman who demanded he take off the mask; he said that in an interview given after his arrest.

Frankly, even if had been carrying a sign with that message, it would not have met the standard for applying the anti mask statute. A single person wearing a mask and holding a sign with a political message does not give rise to a reasonable suspicion that the intent is to intimidate or that criminal activity that threatens harm to others is imminent.

The Supreme Court has made clear that the First Amendment protects the right to communicate anonymously. "Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation — and their ideas from suppression — at the hand of an intolerant society." McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 514 U.S. 334, 357 (1995).
Like most rights, however, the right to anonymity is not absolute.

Notably, in 1968, the Supreme Court held on the basis of the Fourteenth Amendment right against self-incriminationthat the police may not demand that someone disclose their identity absent a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous (1) intended to conceal his identity, and (2) either intended to threaten, intimidate, or provoke the apprehension of violence, or acted with reckless disregard for the consequences of his conduct or a heedless indifference to the rights and safety of others, with reasonable foresight that injury would probably result."

This standard is commonly used in assessing, and has been added to, anti mask laws.

Laws exactly like the Florida law were used against Occupy protesters in a number of states. While the case as to whether the laws are constitutional as applied against a group wearing hoods that identify them as members of the Klan is a close call, a single individual, protesting a particular statute while wearing a guy fawkes mask is not. (Neither should it be a crime to wear a mask, such as a mask of Ronald Reagan or George Bush), while participating in a political protest. The purpose of wearing the mask in those types of cases is itself an expressive act, not primarily the hiding of one's identity. But hiding one's identity also can be a protected purpose because without anonymity, speech can be chilled. Protesters against oppressive regimes often wear masks for exactly that reason.

This guy arguably had both directly expressive reasons for wearing a Guy Fawkes mask and an indirect (protection of his identity out of fear of reprisals for having spoken out).

My bet is that the charges against him are dropped.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
110. That applies to far too many people.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:27 PM
Dec 2013

[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
58. "Who is that Mysterious Masked Protester?"
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:49 AM
Dec 2013

"They call him Anti-Obamacare Guy. He's my hero!"
"Oh waitaminute, I know who it is. That's Officer Harrell's truck over there."

gvstn

(2,805 posts)
20. I'm fairly sure you have to indentify yourself to a police officer.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:10 PM
Dec 2013

A cop should know that rule and comply. Probably didn't want to be identified as a police officer but then he should have taken off the mask and/or gone home. Oh, well.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
37. What justification is there for a cop to demand a person engaged in lawful conduct
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:53 AM
Dec 2013

reveal his identity?

The Constitution should protect one's right to engage in protected speech anonymously, just as it allows us to post here anonymously.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
43. as the material you cite indicate: absent reasonable suspicion that you're engaging in a criminal ac
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:03 AM
Dec 2013

demanding that you identify yourself violates the Fourth Amendment, and in some circumstances (such as where you are engaging in protected speech) violates the First Amendment.

We should not be applauding the actions of the cop that demanded that someone engaging in peaceful protest reveal their identity any more than we would applaud a judge for ordering DU to disclose the actual names of every poster.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
52. You can call it 'peaceful protest' and then rob a store on your way out.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:11 AM
Dec 2013

There is a reason these laws were put into place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

onenote

(42,700 posts)
122. Then wearing a Halloween mask during a parade should be illegal
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:13 PM
Dec 2013

After all, when the parade ends, you could rob a store.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
153. Most of those ordinances have a provision for festive occasions, like
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:15 PM
Dec 2013

Mardi Gras, Halloween or other organized, celebratory events.

If you're walking down the street with a mask on, you're going to attract some attention. If you're parading down the street in an organized group to the sound of music and cheering crowds, that is an entirely different circumstance and tone.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
157. and if you're standing on the street holding a protest sign
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:10 AM
Dec 2013

you're not intimidating anyone or doing anything to create a reasonable suspicion of criminality.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
162. If your sign says "There's a war coming" I think a reasonable person might think otherwise.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:23 AM
Dec 2013

It suggests that the sign holder might be a participant in that war, and passers-by are potentially 'collateral damage.'

Some weirdo with a mask and a cape with such a sign would intimidate me, and I'd be concerned that the person had an interest in lighting off said war--I'd give that person a wide berth.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
172. All the "The End Is Nigh" placard holders were intimidating you, were they?
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 09:57 AM
Dec 2013

You poor thing.

Anyway, "there's a war coming" is just what he said in the website interview afterwards. At the time of arrest, he was carrying an upside down US flag.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
175. Wow, snide much? "The end is nigh" is religious, "There's a war coming" suggests guns and ammo.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:38 AM
Dec 2013

Onenote brought up the "sign" scenario and I was responding to that. We were speaking of hypothetical situations where people might be masked (parades, etc.). This guy wasn't carrying a sign, nor was he participating in a parade--but, you see, it's possible to speak hypothetically when people have a civil conversation. You might try it sometime.

But the bottom line is this, since you seem to have a focus on facts--FL has a "no mask" law. The police officer was within her rights to take issue with the guy. If you look at post 27, it's pretty clear that FL has good reason for such a law.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
177. Fuck me, you're criticising someone else for being snide in this thread?
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:54 AM
Dec 2013

"93. I'm sure if we wait long enough, you'll give us your view of it."
"113. Yes, those 'evil' authoritarians...!"
etc.


"There's a war coming" doesn't suggest the person with the sign is going to start it, any more than "the end is nigh" suggests the guy with the sign is about to bring down fire and brimstone.

I was civil. It's possible to be civil and laugh at a post.

The 'no mask' law requires a suspicion of hiding their identity while being liable to civil or criminal proceedings. Now, I have since noticed (and no-one else in this thread mentioned it before me) that he was also charged with obstruction of traffic, so it is possible after all that there was a valid reason for invoking the 'no mask' law; but this 'pretty clear' reason didn't seem to have been articulated by anyone, to me, since everyone was talking about a protest, without saying there could be obstruction of traffic involved.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
181. I return a volley, when served.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:04 AM
Dec 2013

You weren't civil--you were snarky. You have some sort of bug up your ass when it comes to me, for some reason--you're rarely if ever civil when I encounter you. Not quite seething but decidedly inhospitable. Not sure why, that's your issue.

Back to the point. FL is also a stop and frisk state.

The cop was within her rights to question the guy-the fact that the suspect was also a cop means that he should have known better.

And you have a nice day, too.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
183. Get over yourself - I don't have any particular opinion about you
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:11 AM
Dec 2013

Maybe you find me uncivil and snarky because you yourself are frequently snarky and uncivil. Volleys, as you say, are often returned.

"The cop was within her rights to question the guy" - that does not, on its own, mean she had the right to tell him to take off his mask, or arrest him for wearing it, without suspicion of other law breaking - as that section 155 makes clear (as I've noted elsewhere, that was inserted into the law after the Florida Supreme Court found sections 12-16 unconstitutional, on their own).

MADem

(135,425 posts)
185. Oh I am "over myself"--that was just an observation, one that
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:31 AM
Dec 2013

I see continues to bear fruit, but whatever.

She DID have the right to make him identify himself, and so long as we're quoting statutes, here are a pair for you:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0856/Sections/0856.021.html


Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstance makes it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself or herself and explain his or her presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer did not comply with this procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person is true and, if believed by the officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0900-0999/0901/Sections/0901.151.html

(2) Whenever any law enforcement officer of this state encounters any person under circumstances which reasonably indicate that such person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of this state or the criminal ordinances of any municipality or county, the officer may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense.


Unless you are the police officer and have the ability to get inside her head, you can't speak to what made her believe that this fellow may have been up to no good.

Again, bottom line--she was acting within the law of the state of FL.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
180. He didn't have such a sign.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:58 AM
Dec 2013

That was a statement he made after he was confronted by the cop.

I marched against the War in Vietnam with signs calling for revolution. Thank goodness you weren't around to call the cops on me for posing a threat to public safety.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
184. I protested against the same war, and I carried signs as well.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:19 AM
Dec 2013

I didn't wear a mask though--and neither did you. Those things weren't in fashion four+ decades ago.

Though those days were turbulent they had a very different vibe than today. Demonstrations today aren't the same as back then--there was much more marching (no wonder people were thinner). Sit ins were one thing, but people didn't do as much "standing around protesting" as they do now.

This circumstance is a more difficult prospect for LE, particularly with the rise of incidents we as a nation are reluctant to call terrorism, but instead refer to as "bombings." LE is alert to these sorts of things, as they should be.

Bottom line: The cop was within her rights to ask for Guy Fawkes to identify himself. Like it or not, stop and frisk IS the law in FL. Under that alone she had room to maneuver, and the masked protester, as a cop, should have known that and not even pushed that button. The fact that he didn't know the law, or didn't care, suggests that he doesn't belong on the police force.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
188. Bottom Line: the cop did not act properly in asking Guy Fawkes to identify himself
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:56 AM
Dec 2013

Stop and Frisk IS the law in Florida and the law is quite clear:

(2) Whenever any law enforcement officer of this state encounters any person under circumstances which reasonably indicate that such person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of this state or the criminal ordinances of any municipality or county, the officer may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense.

What circumstances reasonably indicated that Guy Fawkes had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of Florida?

There may be good reasons for the cop with the mask not being a cop. But there also good reasons why the cop that made this arrest shouldn't be a cop.

Edit: To the extent the protester was actually impeding traffic, then the cop might have a legal case. And the facts surrounding how he allegedly impeded traffic have not been reported. However, based on my experience, if someone is impeding traffic, the first thing a cop does is ask the person to stop and if they do, then typically that's the end of the story. This cop wasn't worried about traffic, imo. This cop just wanted to jerk this guy around.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
189. Are you the cop? If you're not, you can't insist that you know
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:44 PM
Dec 2013

what caused her to reasonably infer that this guy might be trouble. You just cannot make that determination. You also don't "know" that she "just wanted to jerk this guy around." In my experience, the police who like to jerk people around are more likely to be male.

You were not there. You did not observe his behavior, his manner, his demeanor. She was there and she did make these observations, and she used her best judgment. She gets paid to use that judgment, and the fellow in the mask, being a cop himself, should have known that.

Further, I don't think it is typical for a person to impede traffic wearing a mask and holding an upside-down flag close to a demonstration. I rather doubt that the police encounter that particular scenario on the average day.

In any event, he's on "paid administrative leave." I think he might want to start thinking about a new line of work:


He told police he was protesting Obamacare, but still he "was asked several times to remove his mask and produce some form of identification or tell us his name," according to the incident report. "He refused each time."

The incident report does not say whether any other protesters were there during the incident. Harrell wouldn't tell police who he was, "stating his anonymity was his cause, thus the mask. ... He stated the mask was used by movement groups around the world for protest," the police report said.

He only identified himself saying, "I'm a cop, I'm a cop," once police found his .40 caliber pistol in his right waistband and ordered him not to make any sudden movements.

He was charged with obstruction of traffic, and wearing a hood or mask on a street, the report said. Though taken into custody, he wasn't jailed: He instead was given a notice to appear in court, records show.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-11-29/news/fl-plantation-police-arrest-20131129_1_mask-trash-bin-police-officer

This guy is being touted far and wide across the anti-Obama/anti-ACA/Paulbot blogosphere. I don't think all that cheerleading is going to help him overmuch.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
198. So when the cops arrested Occupy protesters for wearing masks
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 04:33 PM
Dec 2013

you would have sided with the cops because, apparently, cops are entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Interesting.

No, I wasn't there. Neither was you. But there is nothing in the incident report that suggests that the cop had any business starting the confrontation by asking the protester to remove his mask and/or identify himself

I don't agree with the protesting cop's politics in any way shape or form. But too many posters on DU have a situational view of the First Amendment and Fifth Amendment. If they agree with a person's political views, then actions by the authorities are viewed with great suspicion. If they disagree with a person's political views, then they really don't give a crap about whether his or her rights were violated.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
199. Aren't you just the sweetest thing!
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 04:53 PM
Dec 2013

First you make a statement, unsupported by facts, and then you pronounce your unsupported statement "Interesting."

So you're the type of person who likes to serve as judge, jury and executioner.

Interesting!

So you don't feel a need to ask the defendant anything before you pronounce your sentence.

Interesting!



The law was on that policewoman's side. That might be problematic for YOU, because you have a desire to substitute YOUR judgment for that of the policewoman, but I believe that you don't have the situational knowledge --and certainly not the authority-- to do that.

And that is what's really interesting, here!

onenote

(42,700 posts)
200. Yes I am
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 04:58 PM
Dec 2013

I"m particularly sweet on the First Amendment and the Fifth Amendment.

I'm not nearly as sweet when it comes to cops interfering with the exercise of those rights.

I'm sure you're sweet too, just not about the same things as me.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
201. But you haven't demonstrated that this arrest has anything to do with either of those.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:11 PM
Dec 2013

You have opinions--you have opinions about the protester, you have some very negative opinions about the policewoman you don't even know, but what you don't have is any facts.

You weren't there. You are assuming 'facts' that are not in evidence, here. You are constructing a scenario to suit your own personal outrage, and I regret to say I just don't find your arguments at all compelling. I have to believe that the policewoman has a better handle on what happened with that guy than you do (since, well, she was actually THERE and made the arrest), your protestations about the Constitution notwithstanding.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
204. You haven't pointed to anything that suggests that the constitutional standard
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:25 PM
Dec 2013

for first approaching this protester had been met. The circumstantial evidence suggests strongly that it hadn't been.

For instance, there is no indication that the cop was so concerned about an obstruction of traffic that she asked the protester to move or to stop holding the upside down where it might distract drivers. All that has been reported by those who have seen the incident report (and neither you nor I have seen it) is that the cop approached the protester and asked him to remove his mask and identify himself. If that's all there is -- a guy protesting with an upside down flag and a mask, then the cop had no basis, under the constitution or the relevant Florida statutes, to ask the protester to do anything. And the protester was exercising his right not to comply with the cop's demand.

Maybe something will come out that will establish a predicate basis for the cop approaching the protester in the first place. At the moment, however, all we have is your assumption (based on nothing more than blind faith) that the cop must have had a good reason and my assumption (based on the absence of any evidence to the contrary) that she did not have a good reason.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
205. And you haven't pointed to anything save your opinion -- based on an
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:36 PM
Dec 2013

incomplete news article--that suggests the standard has NOT been met.

See how that works?

At this point in time, if I'm to back an argument for one POV or another, I think I'll take the word of the policewoman, a LE professional, who affected the arrest, not the insistence of someone on the internet who avers that something nefarious might have happened, in his opinion, just because, well, maybe, a big fat guess.

You cannot "prove" her judgment was faulty, no matter how much you try. She is paid to make those decisions--you're not.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
207. I see exactly how it works
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:20 PM
Dec 2013

I think the burden of proof should be on the cop and, therefore, the absence of any reported facts that would justify the cop approaching the protester causes me to lean in the direction that there are not such facts. You, on the other hand, apparently view the burden as being on those who question whether the cop had justification and assume, without any evidence, that the cop's burden was met.

Cops screw up. Really, it happens. Indeed, during the Occupy protests, a guy wearing a mask at an Occupy protest was arrested. And then the charges were dropped. Similarly, several women in New York protesting about Pussy Riot were arrested for covering their faces. And the charge was dropped.

Anti-mask and stop and frisk laws have been narrowed by the courts precisely because law enforcement doesn't like anonymity and tends not to respect the rights of individuals to maintain their anonymity and not identify themselves to the authorities where there is no justification for doing so.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
209. The cop cites her judgment. That's all the "proof" she needs.
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 07:19 AM
Dec 2013

She doesn't need your opinion, or anyone else's. She is a law enforcement professional, and her judgment and experience are determiners. The fact that the supervisor of old Guy Fawkes took his badge and police ID suggests that the PD agrees with her judgment in this regard.

Amazing how, after Mister Mask was stopped, and frisked, and his gun was found under his cape, in his waistband, that his first recourse was to scream "I'm a cop!"


When officers discovered he was carrying a .40 caliber pistol in his waistband, he relinquished some of his anonymity by informing them “I’m a cop, I’m a cop.”

He was ordered not to make any sudden movements, then charged with obstruction of traffic and wearing a hood or mask on a street. Florida has a statute — which originated with the state’s attempt to criminalize the Ku Klux Klan without violating the Constitutional guarantee to free assembly or ruining Halloween — that states that “(n)o person or persons over 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood, or device whereby any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter upon, or be or appear upon any lane, walk, alley, street, road, highway, or other public way in this state.”

Harrell was not taken into custody, but issued a summons to appear in court. His superior in the Plantation Police Department collected his badge and police identification on Sunday, but as of this moment his current employment status is unknown.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/02/florida-cop-arrested-for-wearing-anonymous-mask-at-obamacare-protest/

onenote

(42,700 posts)
210. Not every exercise of "judgment" is the exercise of good judgment.
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:42 AM
Dec 2013

For example, I'm sure the cop that made the arrest in the following case also was relying on his or her "judgment." It just wasn't good judgment.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/charges-dropped-against-water-gun-attacker-598732

MADem

(135,425 posts)
211. But that cop wasn't this cop, and you weren't there, either.
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:51 AM
Dec 2013

The supervisor of Guy Fawkes agrees with the policewoman. Mr. Mask doesn't have a badge or an ID on him anymore.

Also, he didn't hesitate to identify himself at his previous protest--funny how he got all up in his own "anonymity" when asked by this woman to ID himself...I guess it depends who's asking, or something?


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-12-06/news/fl-cop-protest-mask-anonymous-20131203_1_anti-mask-law-police-officer-paid-leave

While Harrell was arrested in Plantation, he didn't run into any trouble when he protested peacefully in August in Sunrise for an hour and a half and then went home, records show.

According to the police report, Sunrise police said he told them "he was not happy what was being done in Washington by our government. ... Ericson advised he is trying to open America's eyes to the reality of what is going on in the U.S.A."

But in Sunrise, according to the police report, Harrell identified himself to Sunrise police when he was asked.


He needs a new line of work.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
212. You weren't there either.
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 05:43 PM
Dec 2013

And you still haven't pointed to any known facts that would justify even asking him to disclose his identity or remove his mask. All you have is your blind faith that the cop must have, in her "judgment" a justifiable basis for suspecting that a criminal act was about to be committed or that the protest was intended to intimidate.

The fact that someone waives their first and fifth amendment rights on one occasion doesn't mean that they're gone forever. '

As for needing a new line of work -- he's on paid administrative leave, no decision has been made whether to pursue the arrest or drop the charges, and based on the article you linked to, it seems more likely than not that in the end the charges will be dropped because, as in other like cases, the arrest doesn't measure up to the constitutionally required standard.

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
64. I believe there was a Supreme Court case about this issue (identifying yourself to police)
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:06 AM
Dec 2013

during Dubya's (second?) term.

They ruled that you do.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
123. Not exactly
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:18 PM
Dec 2013

You are, I believe, referring to the 2004 Hiibel decision, wherein the Supreme Court narrowly (5-4 with the usual suspects in the majority) upheld a Nevada "stop and identify" law over objections that it violated the the right against self incrimination. Critical to the outcome of that case was the fact that the law in question
applied only “under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime.”

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
208. Yes, that case
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 08:27 AM
Dec 2013

Thank you for giving me the name so I could read up on it.

It also upheld that his 4th Amendment rights were not violated.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
38. taking up arms against socialism is almost mainstream in right-wing Republican circles now - pumped
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:07 AM
Dec 2013

up by hate radio and the likes of Fox News - If you have people thinking that the liberals are the equivalent of Hitler and Mao and the country is rapidly descending into socialist tyranny under Sharia Law - they start believing their own rhetoric and responding like true patriots really would respond if it was true that liberals are the equivalent of Hitler and Mao. If you sincerely believed that - what would you do?

 

gerogie2

(450 posts)
47. Recently people have challagened no masks laws in federal Court
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:54 AM
Dec 2013

And the Federal courts have upheld the laws. You have the right to publish anonymously, but you can't protest anonymously. The main reason is because of the KKK, but also to help prevent criminals that may riot at a protest from hiding their identity.

onenote

(42,700 posts)
179. Easily distinguished
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:56 AM
Dec 2013

The Georgia law discussed at your link, as interpreted by the Georgia Supreme Court "only prevents masked appearance in public under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable apprehension of intimidation, threats or impending violence." See State v. Miller, 260 Ga. 669 (1990).

No such circumstances were present with regard to the guy fawkes mask-wearing protester.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
48. With or without his mask
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 09:35 AM
Dec 2013

the guy's an idiot.

I say let him wear his mask and spout his nonsense if it makes him happy.

However, when he calls himself a "soldier" and say "there's a war coming" that does set off some alarm bells particularly coming from a police officer.

And I just wonder how he'd feel if there was a counter-protest with a group of people ranged against him, wearing masks. I think we can start to understand why the law was put in place.

I also disagree that wearing a mask is the same as posting on a message board because it's not physical. A big group of people wearing masks can be physically intimidating.

Carolina

(6,960 posts)
51. A Florida cop
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:10 AM
Dec 2013

Says it all to me. Sorry Floridians, but my grandfather left the state in 1916 at age 16 because of the racism. Never again, in his 89 years, did he return or even talk about the state. Seems not much has changed, sadly.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
167. whatever Florida cop says to you
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:43 AM
Dec 2013

it would say the same about the Florida cops that arrested him as it does about the Florida cop that was arrested, right?

StrictlyRockers

(3,855 posts)
74. I'm curious WHY he thinks there is a war coming?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 11:35 AM
Dec 2013

Because ACA? Because freedom? Because demographics changes? Because he feels askerd? Because black people?



What's his angle on this coming war? Is he an agitator for civil war? Do these deep-South dim-bulbs never learn?

JimboBillyBubbaBob

(1,389 posts)
79. You know, this may not be right,
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:00 PM
Dec 2013

but how can a right wing protester be allowed to appropriate such a symbol, screw him and the cape he rode in with.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
94. I'm wondering
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:43 PM
Dec 2013

how so many here have made the determination that the protester is a wingnut. He doesn't even elaborate on his ideological reasoning. Socialists are generally opposed to compulsory purchases of goods and services for profit.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
125. Still no quotes on what drives him to protest.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:29 PM
Dec 2013

I haven't seen where he has addressed exactly what it is about the ACA that motivates him to protest it.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
126. He probably got a call on his walkie-talkie
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:40 PM
Dec 2013

or a tweet on his Twitter. That's how it generally works. I highly recommend this film to you if any of this comes as news. It illustrates how it all worked in a 1963 operation that included an assassination:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_%28film%29

MADem

(135,425 posts)
141. I remember seeing that film in Cambridge MA when it first came out.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:31 PM
Dec 2013

Now, if you'd like, you can see it on YOUTUBE!

&list=PL0921BCFADE41D2D4

Riveting production, I must say--great cast as well.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
149. ^^ Wow. Beautiful print. Highly recommended ^^
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:46 PM
Dec 2013

Great music too. Thanks MADem, this is one of the best!

p.s. To access English subtitles, press the "CC" button to the left of the resolution button (where it says 360p).

MADem

(135,425 posts)
152. I can't believe I saw that film over forty years ago!
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 08:10 PM
Dec 2013

In an artsy-fartsy theater on the other side of the Charles!

It still sticks with me, though--it's one of the best films ever made, I think!

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
140. Armed man, in mask, wearing cape, warns folk of coming war, says it's time to fight, as a protest
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:28 PM
Dec 2013

against Obamacare: a week later, nobody knows exactly what he thinks, except he's armed, wears a mask and cape, warns of war and says it's time to fight, as a protest against Obamacare

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
158. He doesn't mention "Obamacare" in his interview.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:07 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:35 AM - Edit history (3)

(I hate that name. I hear far too many wingnuts spit it out with contempt.)

Neither does he say anything about it in his own recording. In the interview, he says he was simply "exercising his first amendment right".

As for being armed, being a police officer in Florida, he is entitled to carry a handgun just about anywhere. Are you really going to challenge his right to be armed? That would be strange, considering what Ive seen you post on that particular issue.

You mention his mask and cape, as if that was some kind of indictment, but there is nothing odd about using props and costumes when protesting. Liberals and progressives do it all the time.

?w=466









His use of the word "war" could be metaphorical. He doesn't rant and rave about it or anything. He mentioned it once. It's difficult to tell what he means by it. Our society is always waging "war" on something, so his use of the term doesn't seem all that unusual, considering the limited amount of information here and the lack of any elaboration of his political views. This all has an air of selective editing about it. It's rather strange.

Your post is loaded with several assumptions about the man, with absolutely nothing to support them.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
192. ... He told police he was protesting Obamacare ...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:01 PM
Dec 2013
Officer accused of refusing to take off mask during Obamacare protest
By Lisa J. Huriash, Staff Writer
5:21 p.m. EST, November 29, 2013

... While Harrell was arrested in Plantation, he didn't run into any trouble when he protested peacefully in August in Sunrise for an hour and a half and then went home, records show. According to the police report, Sunrise police said he told them "he was not happy what was being done in Washington by our government. ... Ericson advised he is trying to open America's eyes to the reality of what is going on in the U.S.A." But in Sunrise, according to the police report, Harrell identified himself to Sunrise police when he was asked ...
Arrest of South Florida officer brings attention to anti-mask law
By Lisa J. Huriash, Sun Sentinel
5:13 p.m. EST, December 6, 2013





ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
193. That's what the author of the article said, not him.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:27 PM
Dec 2013

There are no quotes from him about "Obamacare", so in reality, it isn't really clear what he was protesting.

salin

(48,955 posts)
144. This struck me as well.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:02 PM
Dec 2013

He doesn't join the anti-Obamacare protest, he stands apart from them and does his thing. Perhaps he was offering a counter position/message? I listened for a POV - and didn't hear it. I feel like I am missing something.

salin

(48,955 posts)
145. I stand corrected per the local newspaper story
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:05 PM
Dec 2013

that says that he said he was protesting Obamacare.

It wasn't clear from his video/interview.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
166. Maybe he doesn't really know what he's protesting
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:32 AM
Dec 2013

and just likes the idea of protesting. Maybe that's why he wears the Guy Fawkes mask because it is a symbol of protest that doesn't have a fixed meaning.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
102. Revelation of the method?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 01:15 PM
Dec 2013

This might be a one-off, but it probably isn't. It sounds more like something that's been around a long time, namely managed protests à la Operation Ajax in 1953. In other words those short-haired rock throwers behind the Time-Warner licensed masks aren't always what Time-Warner and the rest of the breathless press would have us believe they are, for example in this helpful 2011 Occupy primer supplied by you guessed it, Time-Warner:



http://subscription-assets.time.com/prod/assets/themes/magazines/SUBS/templates/velocity/site/td-whatisoccupy/lp.html


MADem

(135,425 posts)
190. Those are French police, not Florida police.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 12:55 PM
Dec 2013

In Pakistan, they wear tight yellow pants, moustaches, and carry big sticks. That doesn't translate to other jurisdictions, necessarily.



I don't think the police officer was wearing a mask when she arrested this guy.

The Masked Wonder did have a weapon in his waistband, though.

He was quick to identify himself as a cop once that was discovered.

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