General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBattleground: Kiev
Disclosure: Though American by birth, I am an 8+ year resident of Kiev.
Another disclosure: Many here might not like what I have to say, because I stray seriously from what US and EU government sources, including media sources, want you to believe.
Like many, I have often cheered on street protests from afar. It helps confirm that although your friends and neighbors have no desire to stand up for what is right, somebody, somewhere still has what it takes.
But one's outlook on street protests as one great happy party changes when you can open your window and hear the protests, and when several hundred heavily armed riot police gather across the street from the building where you live one evening. Thats when things get real.
As the Talking Heads would say
This aint no party
This aint no disco
This aint no fooling around
But the tipping point will soon be upon Kiev and Ukraine. According to the Kyiv Post, orders have been given to end the protests and the occupations.
Another disclosure:
I always liked the idea of getting involved in a protest in the hope of creating a better future for myself and my family. But even though I could walk 10 minutes and be at these protests, I have not gone there, not even as a photographer. Sadly, I see this as the wrong protest, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons. But can half a million Ukrainians be wrong? My guess is yes, but who am I to tell them how to run their country?
Sadly, but not totally unexpected, the US media has terrible coverage of these protests.
So
what exactly are these protests about? The protests broke out when the current government decided that they were not going to sign an association treaty with the EU. Note that this was more of a trade agreement than anything else. In no way did it have anything to do with possible EU membership, or a timetable for such. Association with Europe is quite popular here, much more popular in the west than in the east, but the EU association agreement would have imposed Greek style austerity, plus would have complicated trade with their biggest import and export partner, Russia, leading to higher unemployment.
Todays news in Kiev, Ukraine. Some of the websites that I go to for information have been down at one time or another today.
The largest opposition political party have had their offices taken over by special security forces.
Berkut (Special Forces) Commander: No plans to forceably take over Independence Square in Kiev. Take that with a grain of salt. Not only is tonight the snowiest and the coldest night since March, (possibly below 5F tonight) but if the government doesnt act soon, there might not get another chance.
My feeling: If the government wins, Ukraine might be the next Belarus. (Sorry I dont have the time to explain that). If the opposition wins, meaning those who are currently protesting, Ukraine might become the next Yugoslavia. Meaning Ukraine splits into several different countries, some of which might become part of Russia.
Of course, both the USA and the EU treat Ukraine as some second rate country and believe they have the moral authority to tell Ukraines leaders what to do. Though its OK if they do it.
Protestors inside Kiev City Hall intend to use water hoses to repel police attempts to retake the building. Though Im sure that its easy enough to shut off water to the whole building, even that that means they need to shut off the water for 100 buildings.
Government workers evacuated from Kiev city center.
Three stations on the Kiev city metro (subway) are reported to be mined. Now who would have access to mines? The government, certainly, though anyone whos determined enough to obtain them could certainly find a way. Which of the political parties would most likely resort to such means? Svoboda. Svoboda has been described as ultranationalist, or anti-gay, or anti-minority, or racist, or fascist, or any or all of the above. And they are a major player in the current protests. Maybe Im crazy, but any political party that has that much going against them is not to be trusted. And they are a major player in these protests.
Much more from Kyiv Post. And another disclosure. I am not a fan of the Kyiv Post. Too much of their coverage has been cheerleading with very little explanation of the issues behind the protests. News source should remain neutral as much as possible. Opinions should be left to the Op-Ed pages.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-332341.html
Additional note. They Kyiv Post website is current down, and not available. I wouldnt be surprised it the government had something to do with that. And again, even though Ive never been a fan of the current Ukraine government, I believe even less in the opposition parties behind the protest.
If I can, I will try to respond to some questions. But that would likely happen tomorrow. Keep in mind that Kiev is 7 time zones ahead of EST and 10 hours ahead of PST.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)I maintain the viewpoint that the government was democratically elected and should be left be. Current issues re. the trade ageement are a red herring.
dballance
(5,756 posts)I just googled USAID and Ukraine. Here's the first link that came up:
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/usaid.html
"Since 1991, Ukraines development trajectory has taken the country from a command to a market-based economy. The United States Government maintains a strategic interest in helping Ukraines transition toward greater democracy and a sustainable free market economy. Over the last 20 years USAID has provided $1.8 billion in critical development assistance in support of the Ukrainian people. Much of this development assistance has helped Ukrainians experience increased political freedoms, stronger transparency guarantees, and more economic and social opportunities.
Today, USAID/Ukraine implements a focused development assistance program to support: more participatory, transparent, and accountable governance; broad-based resilient economic development; and improved health status for Ukrainians. USAID also supports U.S. Presidential Initiatives in Global Health and Global Climate Change. "
I almost fell out of my chair laughing at "USAID also supports U.S. Presidential Initiatives in Global Health and Global Climate Change." (emphasis mine) Right, like the US is such a great example when it comes to Health and Climate change.
The point of this is, USAID is widely known to be a big CIA front that claims it's doing all these great things but is really using all those billions to ensure outcomes favorable to the US interests. We here on DU know those interests are corporations and Wall Street.
Like I said, call me a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist - except don't ignore all the evidence of US/CIA interference in countries in the past.
On Edit: So I can see the CIA interfering and fomenting discord because the current government doesn't want to join the EU and wants to stay with Russia as a prime trading partner. Doing this doesn't serve the transnationals HQ'ed in the US and the UK.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Response to dballance (Reply #2)
dipsydoodle This message was self-deleted by its author.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)You're only 2 hours ahead of the UK.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I'm of Ukrainian descent - even though it was my great-grandparents that came over the family kept the culture and my dad's first language is Ukrainian and my Baba has gone to Ukraine to visit whatever distant relatives survived Stalin... - and I am always interested in what is going on in Ukraine. As a people, they have been getting the short end of the stick for centuries. I just want it to work out for them, finally but I think it's about to go very violent. I hope I'm wrong. Keep us updated.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I have many relatives there, mostly in west Ukraine. I am in e-mail contact with a cousin in Lviv. The mayor of Lviv has told the president that if he sends in riot troops, the Liviv police forces will wear civilian clothes and fight them.
I agree, these protests are less about specifics with the EU and more about not wanting to continually be under the boot of Russia.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I wish Ukraine and Ukrainian people all the best. I hope they can find their freedom from Russia and enter the EU.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)without adding Ukraine, which would make most of their other headaches look minor by comparison. There was no offer to join the EU; there was only an offer of increased trade, which would have been highly detrimental to Ukraine.
The EU doesn't particularly want Ukraine, but wants to move Ukraine away from Russia. The EU offered Ukraine no carrots, and only 10% of a stick. (The rest of the EU stick was reserved for ongoing protests in Greece, Spain, Portugal and elsewhere). They made an offer that any sane government should have refused but knew that they could instigate street protests if Ukraine said no. This article explains how it's done.
http://www.countercurrents.org/lendman290609.htm
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)EU members travel freely from one country to another, and can even find jobs and work anywhere they please. But again, its not just about money. I tend to believe liberation from Russia means a lot more than just that. And I'm aware Ukraine is considered its own country, but the way Russia is keeping them so tied up and dependent on them, it perheps doesnt feel the same to the people.
Just my take on it.
pampango
(24,692 posts)rather than Russia. The transition will be difficult but it worked for Poland and other Eastern European countries few citizens of which seem to want to rejoin a confederation with Russia rather than Europe.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)There definitely were protest broken up last night, though many remain. It was on TV this morning. Maybe approved reporting on approved stations?
But a strange quiet has emerged. The most active Twitterers during this protest all went quiet for numerous hours last night. Some are still quiet. One reported "I have to go offline, I can't say more." Facebook has gone quite quiet too. A very active poster has yet to say anything about today's events. Some are coming back online now.
Beyond that, there's a very large contingent of government supporters out in force today. Best estimate (I suck at this) is about 800-1000. Third straight day, today's the largest contingent by far, walking the street in front of our building.