Americans Say Dream Fading as Income Gap Hurts Chances

[Purveyor]

By David J. Lynch - Dec 11, 2013

The widening gap between rich and poor is eroding faith in the American dream.

By almost two to one -- 64 percent to 33 percent -- Americans say the U.S. no longer offers everyone an equal chance to get ahead, according to a Bloomberg National Poll. And some say the government isn’t doing much to help.

“There’s a lot of policies that make it easier for the rich to get richer and the poor to go nowhere,” says Ryan Sekac, 26, a mechanical engineer in Westerly, Rhode Island.

The Dec. 6-9 poll follows public statements by leaders, from President Barack Obama to Pope Francis, expressing alarm about growing income inequality. The richest 10 percent of Americans last year earned more than half of all income, the largest total since 1917, according to Emmanuel Saez, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley.

“Everyone on both sides of the aisle talks about the American dream,” says Sekac. “Right now, that’s not something everyone in this country can aspire to.”

more...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-11/americans-say-dream-fading-as-income-gap-hurts-chances.html

[Trajan]

1. Democrats are doing us a disservice when they link the top to the bottom

Frankly, I do not care that rich people are rich, or that they make a lot of money ...

All I really care about? ... that the regular employees get paid well, and that they receive decent compensation in pensions and medical care .... that is all we want ...

When you couple shortcomings in regular compensation for regular workers to the salaries of the fat cats, it minimizes the focus to the disparity, which is not as important as the absolute income of regular workers ...

FUCK the rich ... I don't care about them, but I do want regular workers to see HIGH pay and HIGH compensation .... irrespective of what the rich are doing ...

[liberal_at_heart]

2. you cannot seperate the two anymore because the reason the poor are getting poorer is

because the rich are not happy with what they have. It will never be enough for them. They want more and more and more with each passing year. How do they get more? By breaking unions, decreasing pay to workers, eliminating pensions, and demanding lower taxes for the rich. If we care about the poor and about the workers we have to care what the rich are doing.

[Blus4u]

3. you must be young

The huge income disparity has been growing steadily for the past 40 years only it is picking up steam every decade.
And they have achieved that disparity at the expense of the 'regular' folk you talk about.

I am 62 and have lived it in 45 years of manufacturing. In 2000 our CEO took home $92 mil on a $4.5 mil salary package.
Stock options and bonuses accounted for the balance. The next year was pretty shitty, only $75 mil. I began to wonder, how much fucking money will it take to satisfy this asshole? He took that obscene money home each and every year. Meanwhile, they nixed the pensions, cause ya'll now have 401K's the company contributes to, froze wages, and we began to shoulder more and more of our own medical costs.

Decent pay and pensions and medical care was all we really wanted too.

Peace

[Trajan]

6. no ... I am not young

I am 8 years away from normal retirement ...

I stay with my point ... the problem is not how much money the rich make ... the problem is that workers are not seeing pay increases commensurate with the increase in costs and expenses incurred, and that pensions have been taken away, and that medical insurance companies have been skimming the cream of medical costs while offering less in actual medical care

[edhopper]

8. Where do you think all that money is going

why do you think pay and benefits have stayed low?
Doesn't the enormous increase in wealth at the top explain why the people at the bottom are kept back?
The problem is exactly how much the rich make.

[Trajan]

11. You act as if the value of all money combined is static

As if the pie is always the same size, year after year, decade after decade ... it is obviously not the case, yet your argument depends on a=b+c, where a is constant ...

I am not quite as naive as you might think ...

[strategery blunder]

21. Not really, let me show you an example

(Numbers are arbitrary, but they illustrate what is happening in the economy just fine)

Let the first number in a line be the year, a be the total income generated in the economy that year, b be the income of the wealthy, and c be the income of everyone else.

Year a=b+c

2000 100=35+65
2001 102=37+65
2002 103=39+64
2003 106=41+65
2004 109=45+64
2005 112=48+64
2006 114=51+63
2007 116=53+63
2008 115=53+62
2009 115=54+61
2010 116=56+60
2011 118=59+59
2012 120=61+59
2013 122=64+58

A doesn't have to be constant at all. A can be increasing while C remains constant (or even decreases slightly). That doesn't invalidate his argument at all.

[Trajan]

22. well ... the fact that the numbers are arbitrary kinda ruins it

Anecdotes are nice, but they aren't facts ...

my point is: we need higher wages ... we need pensions ... we need medical CARE, not insurance ...

if it takes the force of law to extract it from those who would withhold it, then fine ... let's do it ...

in the end, however, it is inevitable that when and if workers were paid what they should be paid, then the rich will still continue to get rich from the increased economic activity and sales volume ... I do believe the rich should be paying higher taxes and that higher wages for regular workers will alleviate the malaise we are experiencing for some 30 years now ( good wages are the true stimulus) ...

But I also believe that tying increased wages to some sort of wholesale extraction of wealth from the rich will not be a strategy that will win the hearts and minds of the general populace ... demanding higher wages needn't banish wealth ... the rich will always increase their pile, especially when middle class families are spending their increased incomes ... so there is no way to actually STOP wealth accumulation .... Anyways ... enough said ...

Higher wages are the goal ... that will be hard enough to achieve, apparently ...

[strategery blunder]

23. Well, I only used the "arbitrary" numbers to illustrate your logical fallacy

You were replying to another poster who was arguing that the wealthy are extracting all the growth of the economy for themselves, leaving everyone else's incomes to stagnate or decline, by accusing him of believing that all income is static, that A *must* be the constant. All I had to do to expose that fallacy was show you a scenario where the constant was not A (technically in my example there was no constant, but if non-wealthy income stagnated instead of declining, the constant would be C, and the poster to whom you were originally replying would still be correct).

Now I could have wasted several hours of my life looking up the actual numbers and doing the math to index it all to 2000, but I will leave you with this:

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/productivity-and-real-median-family-income-growth-1947-2009/

And where has all that productivity gone? Well, let's have a looksie:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/26/nyregion/the-new-gilded-age.html?ref=politics

I don't really see any logical conclusion to draw from comparing those two sources of data other than that the wealthiest are presently hoarding the benefits of economic growth for themselves, while everyone else either stagnates or becomes slightly poorer.

[TBF]

9. You may not be young - but you are incredibly naive.

This is probably fruitless but I will give it a try --



Much more here:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

[Trajan]

12. refer to post 11

with the addendum: IF workers were paid at a value commensurate with their production, and if wages had kept pace over the last decades, and if medical care were actually based on the value of care instead of a con game ...

if all that were true, then workers would be well off, families would be enriched and capable of all they wish to do, and the rich would STILL be richer than they are now ...

I don't believe that the minimum wage needs to be lifted - I believe ALL wages need to be lifted ...

My point is: It isn't a matter of emptying the coffers of the rich in order to bankroll a hefty windfall for the poor, but it is a matter of ALL workers being paid FAIRLY, with good pensions and good medical care ... if workers were paid what they are worth, then all would be wealthy ...

[TBF]

16. Whoooshhh ...

If the 1% at the top is hoarding most of the money then there is no money left for all workers to be paid fairly.

This is not a difficult concept.

[El_Johns]

14. Great wealth goes hand-in-hand with great poverty. There is no such separation as you want to

make.

The richer, the poorer.

[Laelth]

4. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[Warpy]

5. it's about bloody time they realized

that the reason they're doing so badly is that their wealth is being siphoned off by the top 1%.

[bvar22]

7. This type of income disparity does NOT happen by accident.

This is the cold, calculated results of 30 years of Trickle Down, "Free Trade", Invisible Hand, Voo-Doo Economics implemented by people who know EXACTLY what they are doing.


[div class=excerpt"]Billionaire wealth doubles since financial crisis
http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/11/12/Billionaire-wealth-doubles-since-financial-crisis/5011384268135/?spt=hts&or=12

The Top .01 Percent Reach New Heights
http://www.demos.org/blog/9/13/13/top-01-percent-reach-new-heights

US Wealthy Have Biggest Piece of Pie Ever Recorded
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/11-6

Rates of unemployment for families earning less than $20,000 - have topped 21 percent
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_JOBS_GAP_RICH_AND_POOR?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-16-08-11-23

Gallop: 20.4% of Americans now “going hungry”.
http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/12/20460846-1-in-5-americans-struggling-to-put-food-on-the-table?lite

Study: "Trade" Deal Would Mean a Pay Cut for 90% of U.S. Workers
http://citizen.typepad.com/eyesontrade/2013/09/the-verdict-is-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp-a-sweeping-free-trade-deal-under-negotiation-with-11-pacific-rim-coun.html

Obama Appoints Bain Capital Consultant Jeff Ziets to Top Post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662209

Obama selects former Monsanto lobbyist to be his TPP chief agriculture negotiator
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662210

The Totally Unfair And Bitterly Uneven 'Recovery,' In 12 Charts – HuffPo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023662029

Larry Summers Gets 'Full-Throated Defense' From Obama In Capitol Hill Meeting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014553343#post1

Wall Street will get away with massive wave of criminality of 2008 - Statute of Limitations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022516719

Older Workers:.Set Back by Recession, and Shut Out of Rebound
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/booming/for-laid-off-older-workers-age-bias-is-pervasive.html?smid=tw-share&_r=3&



THIS ^ does NOT happen by accident.
It is the result of carefully planned and implemented Economic Policy.
It requires careful preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, propaganda, courts packed with Conservative Corporate Rights Judges, and the marginalization and suppression of any opposition or dissent.

The Sequester is just another SCAM to give BOTH Parties Plausible Deniability cover for the destruction of the Safety Nets. Nobody has to go home to the voters and admit that they voted to defund the programs that help the Working Class & The Poor because,
[font size=3]"I didn't cut those programs.
The Sequester Did It!"[/font]

The Sequester....
Nobody wanted it.
Nobody takes responsibility for it,
and yet...here it is.

[TBF]

10. Excellent resources --

here is the wiki entry on capital gains taxes as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States

Capital gains, the money (rich) folks make on their investments is taxed preferentially - ie at a lower rate - which is how they make money so quickly.

This has been something that has been amplified since 1980 with the advent of Saint Ronnie.

[hfojvt]

18. unfortunately Big Bill signed huge tax cuts too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2665533

[TBF]

19. Wish I could argue with that but I can't -

I believe the capital gains tax has been cut under every administration since Reagan's - but it may go back even further. Bi-partisan effort there ...

[hfojvt]

24. wish I could find historical information on that

perhaps the odious Tax Foundation has it, but I seem to remember back in the 1970s, when I was a teenager playing the stock market, that long term capital gains were taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income.

But I could be remembering the 1980s too.

[Triana]

13. Would you mind if I put this entire post on my blog...

...with a link back to this post and/or your profile here on DU?

My blog: http://www.sevenbowie.com/

[bvar22]

27. Help yourself!

I would consider it an honor.
Feel free to use anything I post at DU however you wish.

[woo me with science]

15. And it is DELIBERATE.

Bvar22: These things do not happen by accident.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3149802

[hfojvt]

17. the richest 10% of Americans

but 90% of them aren't even rich, and are on our side, aren't they? They're part of the 99%.

[TBF]

20. The problem with that top 8% or so

that are not in the top 1-2% is that they see themselves as wealthy. And in relation to the rest of the world they are - but they are nothing like the billionaires at the top of the list.

[hfojvt]

25. it seems to really be the other way around

a lot of these rich people do NOT feel rich http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-29/wall-street-bonus-withdrawal-means-trading-aspen-for-cheap-chex.html

They can look up and look around their own rich neighborhoods and feel normal, or even poor. My own brother makes twice my income, but his kids' friends are much richer than he is.

Still, if you look at who takes most of the pie. The top 0.1% takes about 10%, the 0.9% takes another 11%, and the 9% gobbles up 28%.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937994

I think their unhealthy appetites and desire to catch up to the 0.1% helps to put the squeeze on the bottom 90%

[TBF]

26. That's part of it -

just income though and not wealth as a whole which I think is misleading.

I can't disagree with your summarizing sentence though - I think their unhealthy appetites and desire to catch up to the 0.1% helps to put the squeeze on the bottom 90%

That seems quite accurate.