"Mother of girl involved in 'kissing' discipline speaks out"

[KitSileya]

http://www.canoncitydailyrecord.com/news/canoncity-local-news/ci_24702103/mother-girl-involved-kissing-discipline-speaks-out

The mother of a girl involved in the case of a 6-year-old Cañon City school boy being suspended for a second violation of giving a classmate unwanted kisses said she feels the school district has done a "great job" in protecting her daughter "from sexual harassment."
...
"Not once, but over and over...not with her permission but sneaking up on her...not without warning and consequences prior to suspension," she stated.
...
Ownbey stated there originally were two boys who had "kept her (daughter) from playing with other kids and fought with each other."

"After they got in trouble, one boy stopped but the other boy apparently didn't get it," she stated. "I had to put restrictions on her about which she was allowed to be around at school. I've had to coach her about what to do when you don't want someone touching you, but they won't stop."

I do hope that all those who cooed about the cuteness, frothed at the political correctness and accused the school of overreacting read this, and change their minds. This was a case of sexual harassment, pure and clear. It was unwanted touching, and it has had a big impact on the girl, and probably every girl in his class. That the school stands up and refuses to say boys will be boys is the best support this girl and every boy and girl who experiences this can get.

[LeftyMom]

1. That boy's going to get his ass kicked. And he's going to deserve it. And the girl who does it will

get suspended.

[KitSileya]

4. Well, considering that the school actually reacted appropriately, perhaps not.

I was totally shocked that so many were so adamantly opposed to what the school did here on DU, tho' I shouldn't have been, after having seen so much misogyny here lately. I mean, had it been the first time the boy kissed her, then the school's reaction would have been over-the-top, but (to be charitable) clearly too many DUers didn't read the story at all, just the sensationalized headline.

[LeftyMom]

5. I think he is. Since his family took this to the media and is throwing a damned fit,

it seems pretty obvious that he's not going to be told that he was in the wrong.

[KitSileya]

6. Yes, that mother is encouraging her son's behavior.

No doubt he has learned from her that he is supposed to kiss his "girlfriend". I do not know the cause of his unwanted behavior, but it is often (though not always) a reaction tho things at home or to something that has happened to the child. What I do know, is that the mother is not helping this little boy curb his behavior, and that will set him up for a world of hurt later (at least I hope it doesn't set up innocent girls for a world of hurt later, which could be another consequence of this.) To be honest, that mother is teaching her son at six that he has the right to this girl's body to kiss as he wants. In ten years.... I shudder.

[FedUpWithIt All]

21. I disagree.

Kids witness their parents kissing. They sometimes witness older teen siblings kissing boyfriends. They see kissing on TV. Kissing happens in cartoons, and in public and to a child, it is a sign of affection. They kiss their grandmothers and their parents and their siblings. It isn't a far leap for a young child to assume that a kiss is a normal expression of liking someone. It isn't some sign that the boy is somehow deficient or even that his family has raised him inappropriately.

He is clearly taking time to fully realize the consequences and harm of his behavior and it is appropriate for the school to help him along in that area, especially since there is another child involved and she deserves protection, but to suggest that this child is being taught to cross boundaries or that he has "been through something" because of it is a massive leap.

Also, there is not a damned thing about this boys behavior at 6 that is predictive of future behavior. Kids at six years old still have "accidents" and have a hard time sitting still for long periods of time. That doesn't mean ten years down the road they'll still be bringing in extra underwear or getting kicked out of class for dancing next to their seat. The boy is six, in many ways he is acting like six year old children do. He is being taught that the behavior is not alright. He is being taught that he must change his behavior.

The mother, in the linked article, said she agrees with the punishment. I don't see where she is trying to teach "her son at six that he has the right to this girl's body to kiss as he wants".

[KitSileya]

35. He is learning a lot of things at this age.

That his mother, and half the country, if you look at DU castigates the school for what they did, and makes a big brouhaha about how unfair this is, may teach him that he wasn't at fault - may teach other kids that when this happens to them, they should just take it, because it is cute and kids will be kids. I do not think 6 is too young to learn that you can say no if someone wants to kiss you and you don't want to. It is a lesson not often taught, by parents who admonish their kids to kiss grandpa, and to hug auntie, even if they don't want to. 6 is also not too young to learn that you cannot hug or kiss anyone who does not want it, and that you cannot hug or kiss anyone anywhere if you have been told, as this kid has been, that he cannot do it in class. The mother persists in calling the little girl his "girlfriend" - she labels them "boyfriend and girlfriend" and said that the girl didn't mind. Is it such a leap to assume that the mother encourages this fantasy, when it is abundantly clear that the girl does not like it and it has been addressed multiple times by the school?

We cannot say what this specific boy will do in the future, but this is part of our culture that tells girls that they must smile at men when they ask them to on the street, that says to girls that they must give their time and attention to strangers on the bus, lest they be branded rude and b&/chy, that tells boys that they must chase girls, and pressure them, and try to get laid in any way they can. This is one of the places where it starts.

As for the possibility of trauma, I suggested that that may be one of the reasons why the school decided to label this behavior sexual harassment in the files. (Apart from the fact that persistent unwanted kissing is sexual harassment.) Should something turn up later, they then have a comprehensive file on his behavior of acting out and the way he acted out. No one would have know what their notes said but them and the parents of the boy, if the mother hadn't gone to the media.

[duffyduff]

208. First rule in the primary grades is appropriate boundaries

I can't stress enough how important this is and how often it is addressed in classrooms around the country.

"Hands to yourself." "Feet to yourself." "Respect another's personal space."

A six-year-old should be taught that over and over and over again if needed.

[LeftyMom]

64. It's not the kissing. It's that girls don't get to control their own bodies.

If the girl says to stop kissing her that should be that. If it continues authorities should back up her autonomy, INCLUDING his parents, who are not doing so.

That he's not being told that girls can tell him no and he should respect that is a bigger problem than the kissing itself, and that's what's going to cause enormous problems down the road.

The good news is that in a few years the girls are going to start puberty first, they're going to be bigger for a while, and if this keeps up one will almost certainly knock him on his ass. Hopefully that will stop the problem if adults won't.

[duffyduff]

209. No, it's about keeping personal space and not violating others'.

This goes for BOTH boys and girls.

It's critical young children know and respect other children's right to their own personal space. This is about respecting the rights of others.

[JI7]

305. are you serious ? that would explain the replies towards the bottom

[LeftyMom]

307. Yes.

Here's what happened: http://www.ktvn.com/global/story.asp?s=8980999

Here's her blog where she makes identical comments to this thread, just in case anybody isn't sure it's her. http://snunes.blogspot.com/2013/12/school-district-administrators-botched.html

[xulamaude]

310. It's basically verbatim down thread... nt

[BainsBane]

323. I fail to see what you find objectionable about her comment

Yes. everyone needs to respect the space of others, but in this case it was the boy who violated the girls space. Pretending that isn't the case doesn't make it so. Unless, are you insisting the girl is responsible for the boy's actions?

[CTyankee]

348. If he wants it, the girl must be his "girlfriend" no matter what she wants...

oh, I get it now...silly me...

[seabeyond]

2. well. there we go. and all the angst that it was wanted, and nothin, ect... good for the school.

to bad the kids parents were not on top of it and it was ALL left to the mother trying to teach her daughter how to avoid the harassment. and 6. a lesson she will repeatedly experience from "little boys" that do not get boundaries.

[Jamastiene]

62. And once again, the mother of the boy

responsible for the harassment is adding to the "boys will be boys" narrative, by talking the way she has talked about this. So, the girls have to learn to defend themselves at 6 years old and the boys, once again, are not taught to keep their damn lips and hands to themselves, especially if the girl has said no. It is damn sickening that a 6 year old girl has had to put up with this type of behavior this long, in the first place.

[seabeyond]

65. and the men thru out this thread are totally reinforcing it. i posted the deleted, but yes...

the mother did the same shrug of the shoulders that these men are doing. how well did it work for the boy. instead of simply teaching the boy appropriate or not. if it was bullying another little boy we would be all over it. but kissing (bullying) the little girl is fine.

i feel like i am in an alternate universe. not a chance in hell my boys would have gotten away with this garbage. and not a chance in hell their father would have merely shrugged his shoulders.

also, my kids went thru school without any problems. correlation?

[Jamastiene]

70. You raised them to behave and act right.

That is why they got through school without any problems. They behaved.

Too bad so many on DU see it as "boys will be boys" and reinforce the idea that little girls should just take crap off of boys like that. There was nothing innocent about it. No meant no and the boy kept on. Once is understandable, but the boy kept on even after the little girl made it clear she did not want him kissing her or touching her. At that point, it was no longer innocent and became a serious problem.

[seabeyond]

135. i had it on the reverse side raising two sons. one boy was kissed at five, hated it, was angry

about it. he wills till get worked up today at 16 if i say soemthing. i listened to him. validated his feelings. talked to the teacher. she addressed it earlier with girl. problem solved. no more issue. my son absolutely understood that he did not have to allow, that he got to be angry that this girl invaded his space.

i had another son that the little girls all had crushes on. and a few of them let it be known with hitting, kicking, pinching the ears. i addressed with teacher. i challenged the... oh cute, and boys need to suck it up. i addressed it as harassment to son. and not an environment he had to endure. bullying was bullying regardless how it took shape. when one little girl still did not stop, i addressed her and told her to knock it off. my boy could not defend himself and i would not allow her to take advantage of that.

not a tough one. not when a parent is active in kids life and the school atmosphere.

lessons for both boys to hold in how they treat girls now that they are older.

[Jamastiene]

321. It is good to see you taught them respect should go both ways.

Little boys should not have to put up with bullying, which is what that was, either.

[liberal_at_heart]

3. This little boy has to be taught that unwanted touching has consequences before he gets old enough

and physically strong enough to really hurt a young woman. Children have a hard time understanding long term consequences such as being labeled a sex offender, but even toddlers understand the words no and don't. He needs to learn that no means no before he gets himself in even bigger trouble.

[NuclearDem]

7. Good. No more "boys will be boys" or "how cute, he likes you"

[freshwest]

8. I never saw it as anything but sexual harrassment. It was posted in threads as if it was innocent.

I figured there was more to it, but it wasn't posted here. And I'm glad you mentioned it happens to both sexes, because it does. it's not what kids are sent to school for, they are sent to learn subjects on the cirriculum.

Kids do act out what they learn at home and that kid was not taught to respect personal boundaries, or so I suspected. The mother talking is good because we see this was not an isolated event, but a pattern of trespassing on this student by another.

Sorry that his parents didn't teach him about boundaries, and hope h gets counseling to be appropriate in the future and suceed at school.

I don't fault him so much as a minor. That is learned behavior, at home, from a neighbor, or somewhere. Good luck all.

[FedUpWithIt All]

12. My own brother endured something like this in elementary school.

It was terrible for him. Everyday he was chased, knocked down and kissed. Every. Single. Day. It was in the days before much was done about these things. She'd get verbally reprimanded but it never stopped her.

I'm glad things like this are being looked at more deeply now and that it's being discussed. I do wish the boy had learned the lesson more easily and that it didn't get to this point, for both of their sakes.

[JI7]

9. i blame the parents of that boy also

i saw his mother on tv and she seems to be the type who will complain about anything negative said about her kid . the type who will let her kid do anything he wants and it's all ok and cute .

when i read the other articles i saw the only defense of the boy came from the boy's mother.

[FedUpWithIt All]

10. Mixed feelings.

Certainly not about the punishment. I think it was justified. I even agree that it is appropriate that, on the records, it is called what it is. It was right that the little girl's interests were protected first and foremost.

I was happy to read that even the boy's own mother felt the punishment was appropriate. I can see why she might have issue with the "sexual harassment" label. It is her little boy. Hopefully the label on his record will encourage her to really wake up and teach her little one some boundaries.

My mixed feelings are about the boy. A lot of kids that age have trouble remembering boundaries. A lot of kids that age can be exuberant. A lot of kids that age become attached easily. There is a lot here that is developmentally normal and does not in any way suggest, with any certainty, his future behavior. Even the girls mother verbally framed it in the terms that seem the most likely. The "boy apparently didn't get it". It is normal for some children not to "get it" as quickly as their peers. I am glad that the school, and hopefully the mother, will be helping him to get it. I do hope this does not stigmatize him because he is still a very young child.

[Warpy]

11. Christ! Somebody get that woman a Valium!

This could have been handled by a lecture, before or after the black eye from kissing one girl too many.

[JI7]

13. they did try to talk to him but he wouldn't stop

[Warpy]

34. Funny, some kid did that to me when I was nine or so

I socked him and he ran away calling me an interplanetary skunk.

I was kind of impressed by the epithet if not the romance.

[BainsBane]

324. There is nothing postiive in teaching children to beat each other

Good lord.

[Warpy]

326. Oh, good gawd.

[BainsBane]

328. If you like a society based on war and rampant violence

teach children to use violence. If you want a society based on reason and compassion, that is what you teach. It's really not very complicated.

[1000words]

14. I'm curious what folks think of this:

http://www.babble.com/babble-voices/ana-flores-besos/the-day-my-5-year-old-girl-kissed-a-boy/

[JI7]

17. the story in the OP is about a girl who did not want it and the boy refused to stop

your link seems more like a story that has been exaggerated but mostly about her writing about how her daughter is into boys now.

[1000words]

19. The mother's attitude is what struck me

[seabeyond]

18. i did not read it. but, i will tell you my experience with my 5 yr old son that was kissed by a

girl and hated it. he was so mad. he was affronted. and i totally validated his feelings. he had every right. and the teachers addressed it and it did not happen again. at 16, my son is still pissed about it.

so.... does that work for you?

[BainsBane]

325. That depends on how the boy feels about it

and if she has a history of touching people without consent. If so, the situation is identical.

But that's not what you wanted to hear is it?

[JI7]

15. i wonder if those in the other thread will admit to being wrong

i have a feeling based on some of the history of the posters that they will continue to attack the school and see the boy as a victim.

[Major Nikon]

93. When I first saw it I suspected this was what it was about

It had all the halmarks of a manufactured controversy.

What people need to understand is that kids start to develop their ideas about sexuality even before puberty. Kids absolutely should be taught not to sexually harrass other kids at this age. The school made the right move.

[ScreamingMeemie]

128. Because I don't live in the district, know any of the children, or work in the school...

It's hard to know who's right or wrong about any of this.

Is there a DUer more familiar with the situation? Outside of taking one mother's side over another? If not, than there's nothing to be "right or wrong" about.

[Vashta Nerada]

16. It's obvious the six year old is a sexual predator.

Make him register with the state and inform neighborhoods when he moves in.

[seabeyond]

20. so it is ok for a boy to continue harass a girl, stop her from playing with her friends, isolate her

regardless of the teachers addressing him? really? what would be your point?

[Vashta Nerada]

23. That was a short break.

Did I sleep and miss Christmas?

[seabeyond]

25. the kids was doing this to the girl, he was stopping her from playing, teacher stepped

in and it did not stop. the mom is teaching daughter at SIX how to avoid being sexually harassed, which she will get plenty as she grow old. but in no way should be dealing with this issue at six

you go on a rant about whatever

i ask you what you are saying...

and you post this gibberish

wtf?

[Vashta Nerada]

27. Speaking of gibberish...

[seabeyond]

29. really? truly amazing. that you just do not care about the infringement on the little girl.

that you do not get that this boy is being set up for failure if parents are not willing to step in and help him out.

too odd

[whopis01]

210. Others are saying the mother needs to be drugged

so she will calm down about the whole thing. It's really unbelievable.

[seabeyond]

212. hmmm. lol. nt

[KitSileya]

22. He got a note in his file.

The principal labelled his behavior sexual harassment, as that is what repeatedly kissing someone who does not consent is. The note will not follow him should he leave the school district. The school district will not send it to future colleges. He is not registered anywhere.

His mother, on the other hand, has spread this business in the media. No one would have known about the note, had not she been so outraged on her son's behalf.

[Vashta Nerada]

24. Yep. He's level 5.

He deserves to have his life ruined and not allowed to go to college because he kissed a girl. Twice. And he's six years old.

[seabeyond]

26. seriously? does reason ever become a part of your argument?

[Vashta Nerada]

28. Well it's quite obvious this boy is a sexual predator.

[seabeyond]

30. and you would be the only one with hair on fire with this rant. so i gotta figure it is your way of

dismissing the little girl and her right to not be subjected to this behavior. if all you have is a strawman to run around with, without actually addressing what is being posted to you, then truly... whatever.

[Vashta Nerada]

32. I am thinking of the girl.

This six year old boy deserves to go to prison and labeled a sex offender.

[seabeyond]

33. ya. waste of time. nt

[Luminous Animal]

94. Which, of course, neither is happening.

[bettyellen]

147. WTF, is ANY of what you post grounded in reality- or human decency? It appears neither of those

things concern you.

[geek tragedy]

175. Rape culture warriors aren't concerned with trivial things like decency

and protecting women and girls.

[1000words]

38. Read this thread while logged out ... saw all the responses.

You make me smile.

[Vashta Nerada]

39. ...

[seabeyond]

43. of course. just another form of being disrespectful and disruptive. you boys can high five each

other.

[CTyankee]

350. well, you could see that one coming a mile away...

[KitSileya]

44. Clearly. Except.....

Gooldy said the policy infractions will be on the student's discipline record only while he is in the Cañon City School District, after that they go away. He made it clear that law enforcement is not involved, and no criminal charges have been brought against the boy.

http://www.canoncitydailyrecord.com/news/canoncity-local-news/ci_24702103/mother-girl-involved-kissing-discipline-speaks-out

But why let the truth get in the way of the defense of a little boy whose mother thinks the kissing is fine, and that the girl wanted it ("She was fine with it, they are ‘boyfriend and girlfriend.’ The other children saw it and went to the music teacher," said Hunter's mom, Jennifer Saunders. ) and who objects to the punishment for the kissing, but not the roughhousing.

No one would have known about the label of the infraction if the mother hadn't gone to the media.

[Vashta Nerada]

46. This boy clearly needs help.

Ugh. My god. What was he thinking when he kissed that little girl without her permission?

He's a deviant who needs a lot of psychological help.

[KitSileya]

56. Let me post the relevant quotes from the article where the girl's mother speaks out.

"Not once, but over and over...not with her permission but sneaking up on her...not without warning and consequences prior to suspension," she stated.

Ownbey stated there originally were two boys who had "kept her (daughter) from playing with other kids and fought with each other."

"After they got in trouble, one boy stopped but the other boy apparently didn't get it," she stated. "I had to put restrictions on her about which she was allowed to be around at school. I've had to coach her about what to do when you don't want someone touching you, but they won't stop."

Ownbey stated her daughter's older brother has felt like he needed to protect her at school.

"In elementary school, when a boy kisses a girl, the usual response of their peers is 'ewwww,'" she stated. "So why do the other kids rush to tell? Because they've seen it over and over, they've seen him repeatedly get in trouble for it, they've seen the girl repeatedly tell him to stop, they know it's wrong."

[LanternWaste]

132. I'd minimize his actions too if I felt the need to rationalize them.

I'd minimize his actions too if I felt the need to rationalize them.

[NYC_SKP]

188. Read the full article. The boy was a persistent molester and intervention was required.

I think applying the term "sexual harassment" is incorrect, the boy is a bit young for that attribution.

Pest and pain in the ass is more like it, but it wasn't innocent and normal, it was anti-social.

Verb
1. molest - harass or assault sexuallymolest - harass or assault sexually; make indecent advances to
assail, assault, set on, attack - attack someone physically or emotionally; "The mugger assaulted the woman"; "Nightmares assailed him regularly"

2. molest - annoy continually or chronicallymolest - annoy continually or chronically; "He is known to harry his staff when he is overworked"; "This man harasses his female co-workers"

[Vashta Nerada]

189. Re-read what I said.

The boy needs years of psychological help. He's a sexual predator.

[NYC_SKP]

194. Hey, sport. I'm reading ALL of your replies in this thread. You're fooling nobody. Here:

Vashta Nerada (1,323 posts)

68. The six year old sexual predator should have his future ruined.

Kissing little girls on the cheek is a gateway to playing doctor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4166449

Play the game all you want, it's not as clever or effective as you think.

[MattBaggins]

232. He is nit the only one who needs psychological help

[Vashta Nerada]

233. You're absolutely right.

The girl's mother needs help as well.

She sounds like a helicopter.

[seabeyond]

243. ah. see. you stepped over the line to really offensive. watch your child being bullied and then

get on the mom for standing up for her child. truly, vomit worth, offensive.

you are young, right? with no kids, right? being childish thru out the thread is one thing. going after the girls mother is .... ugly.

[xulamaude]

249. Think you have that one nailed down -

young, no kids.

And possibly angry with mothers?

[Vashta Nerada]

265. My personal life is none of your concern.

I must have said something right if you got so bent out of shape about it.

[seabeyond]

267. that is your goal? seeing how ugly and outrageous you can be to get a reaction? kinda reinforces

my conclusions.

[Vashta Nerada]

269. I noticed some of your posting habits that have me going "hmmmm..."

I noticed you have totally ignored this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024167464 totally painting a positive light on five human rights activist women changing the Middle East. You have also been silent about this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024169734 . Yet you feel the need to keep commenting on the little stuff I post here in these meaningless threads.

Hmmmmm...

[xulamaude]

273. "here in these meaningless threads"

Please.

[Vashta Nerada]

297. Another keyboard warrior.

Huh.

[xulamaude]

299. Flying 19th! Booyah! nt

[BainsBane]

364. Right, because any parent that teaches her child that others have no right to touch her without

consent has problems. Good mothers teach their daughters their bodies are not their own but instead exist for men to touch or violate at will. God forbid girls "punish men" by thinking they can choose whom they want to touch. Respecting personal boundaries is so passé. Gotta raise those girls to be easy targets for sexual predators later in life.

[Vashta Nerada]

369. So is the six year old a boy or man now?

[BainsBane]

393. A boy

boys grow into men, but even as boys they are vulnerable to becoming victims of sexual abuse, just as girls are.

[bettyellen]

399. people here seem to think men and women pop out fully formed, behaving nothing like their prior

selves. What the fuck? It is moronic.

[BainsBane]

410. at that children are to be left alone

to their own devices. In most circles, that's called neglect.

[bettyellen]

394. you're having real trouble keeping up, aren't you?

[BainsBane]

401. Helicopter or telescope?

Both come in handy

[Vashta Nerada]

426. That made me giggle.

[BainsBane]

429. Do you mind if I ask

Where in MN you live? Not streets or anything, just city or general area.

[Vashta Nerada]

431. St. Cloud.

[BainsBane]

433. Ok. Cool.

[Vashta Nerada]

442. Just an fyi...

I agree with you on this subject related to the OP.

[KittyWampus]

382. And yet you make a big show of supporting gay rights here on DU.

Gay rights- important
Female autonomy- not important, in fact it's laughable to you

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Error.

He was censured by the school twice. He did it a hell of a lot more than twice.

[Vashta Nerada]

49. My bad.

It's a lot worse than I anticipated.

[seabeyond]

55. ya. all these posts of your certainly are "your bad"

[AtheistCrusader]

61. I consider his pattern of behavior extremely troubling.

My four and a half year old knows not to put his hands on other people at school or anywhere else.

This was a cheap lesson, that will not follow him through life if he corrects the behavior. Not sure why you seem so sarcastically upset about it. It is not normal behavior. It's bullying at the very least, since the advances were unwanted.

[redqueen]

51. Several of our new visitors aren't so discerning about facts.

They prefer to ignore substance and stir shit.

[JI7]

76. true, Girls exist so guys can touch, kiss and do whatever they want to do to them

the girls are the ones who need to be taught to accept it and deal with it and not complain.

[Vashta Nerada]

79. I'm glad you said that.

That's why this six year old boy deserves to be labeled a sexual predator, to teach other six year olds that it's not okay.

[geek tragedy]

172. Fascinating to find someone arguing for men's entitlement to buy women here

now arguing that girls should be forced to endure sexual harassment because boys will be boys.

[seabeyond]

174. if the two are not connected. thru out the threads. didnt want to call attention but so obvious

in the face.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

91. To be funny, satire needs to hold a mirror up to life.

The less the satire has in common with reality, the less point it has.

[Luminous Animal]

92. So it is okay for the boy to harass the girl. It is a valid question

that you avoiding answering.

[LanternWaste]

130. I suppose many people will rationalize the little boy as the victim in all this.

I suppose many people will rationalize the little boy as the victim in all this. It's a wonderful way to better validate one's own biases...

[NuclearDem]

158. ...

[KittyWampus]

380. So you are like white on rice in threads about Pope/Gay Rights but you are snide when it comes to

harassing young girls.

Fascinating observation about you.

[go west young man]

31. Only in America....

could this be newsworthy.

[Johonny]

397. +1

This.

[davidn3600]

36. So would this apply if the genders were reversed?

Because when I was in 2nd grade, there was a girl that had this huge crush on me. She'd sneak up on me and kiss me. Everyone laughed. Everyone thought it was "cute."

But I'll tell you this...Im glad Im not a kid anymore with the overprotective parents and the authoritarian schools we have today. Kids getting suspended for playing tag, holding hands, hugging, kissing, and shooting with an imaginary bow and arrow. It's getting insane. And I'm seriously questioning that if I ever have kids whether I want to put them in a public school that no longer allows kids to be kids.

[Egalitarian Thug]

40. If I was a kid today, I'd devote my life to ridding the world of as many

stupidly insane (or would that be insanely stupid?) adults as possible.

[seabeyond]

41. one kid has made it thru school and one kid is a couple years out. never had any issue.

ever. not one. not that tough to go thru school, behave, follow rules and common sense. two kids have successfully hurddled all these supposed mine fields you throw up.

not ONE issue.

[davidn3600]

47. Maybe your school district isnt as insane as many of these others

Many of these districts that have these issues seem to lack common sense and have a ton of "zero tolerance" rules. That's ultimately the problem. There is no flexibility.

[seabeyond]

52. or parents that did not put up with crap, had expectation of behavior and knew what was going on in

my kids life and connected with teachers and school so well informed. i dunno. i am in texas. i often hear rants about how horrible it has to be here. yet, my area now is the good area.

and still. my kids went thru with no problems. got good educations. and are moving on in life.

the kids was told to knock it off a number of times and i am sure parents were called. that is not zero tolerance. that would be reasonable. the opportunity to stop the isseu was there. the kid did not stop. they had to take it a step forward. that was flexible.

[Major Nikon]

96. Gender does not matter

If the behavior is not welcome it should be discouraged. At what age do you think it's appropriate to teach kids these things, if at all?

[aptal]

447. This... best post of the thread.

[geek tragedy]

180. Anti-woman twofer: try to make men/boys the victim and then throw a hissy fit

over the idea of boys being taught that sexual harassment is wrong.

[NuclearDem]

221. What kind of fucking question is that?

Of course it would. Boundaries are boundaries, and if anyone violates another's, it's not acceptable.

[KittyWampus]

384. yes, it would apply if reversed. Especially if it is repeated behavior.

[Egalitarian Thug]

37. Apparently, I missed another DU flamefest. Do I understand correctly that half of the board is

freaked out over a six year old's ménage à trois?

Are you serious? Have you all gone 'round the bend?

[NoOneMan]

45. This kid is part of the patriarchy

Women are more than cheeks to be kissed! There is no one more issue more important than punishing and suppressing this specific man-child.

[redqueen]

50. A little boy was suspended for repeatedly bothering other classmates and being disruptive.

He was given warnings with no result, so he got suspended.

Fox News reported it with their typical 'political correctness gone mad' spin, people here referred to his suspension as his having been "labeled a sex offender" and hardly anyone made any effort to actually determine what happened before going with the Fox News spin, and jumping on board with various 'how dare they ruin this poor boy's future' / 'these people are assholes and deserve to have their asses kicked' / 'I'm so smart I don't need to actually know what I'm talking about before I start spewing' type bullshit.

[1000words]

54. You just described a common behavioral problem amongst 6 year old boys

Why is it being called "sexual harassment? After being told of his suspension and why, the boy's response was to ask what was sex.
There's the issue.

[redqueen]

57. Welcome to DU.

I don't take his mother's word at face value, given other statements by her. I wonder if she went directly to Fox. Hmm.

[1000words]

59. Thanks!

Fair enough, regarding his mother and her account.
Still, "sexual harassment?" Just suspend him for disruption and be done with it, imo.

[seabeyond]

63. you have a problem with them documenting the issue? and it arises again, they clearly understand

what the previous issue is. if it never arises again, then so what? it does not follow the kid. effect the kid. no one else sees it. the school documented what happened. why is that not a reasonable action to take. we would expect it in all circumstances, but it seems with this behavior.

[JI7]

66. i think him thinking it's ok to keep doing things to girls they don't want is worse

than if he found out what sex is .

[SunSeeker]

77. Exactly! nt

[LeftyMom]

69. "Sexual harassment is bothering a girl in a way you wouldn't bother a boy." See, easy!

Dealing with children means explaining complicated things in an age-appropriate way.

[1000words]

83. So writes the poster who thinks a six year-old deserves an "ass kicking."

Violence is never age appropriate.

[Major Nikon]

98. Did you really read it that way?

Or are you just being disingenuous?

I'm not sure which is worse.

[LeftyMom]

102. No, I said he's going to get one when he's older if he keeps it up.

A few years ago, when my younger sister was a freshman in high school a senior was harassing her. She told him to stop. She spoke to her teachers. She spoke to the administration. Nothing was done and he kept at it. Finally she talked to our father about it, and he told her to take care of the problem and he would back her up. The next time it happened my sister hit the young man, once. It might need mentioned here that my sister, while tiny, is a competitive martial artist. She knocked him out cold, and cracked the orbit of his eye to boot. I don't know if he harassed anybody after that, but he never said a single word to my sister ever again.

If this young man keeps touching girls without permission one of them is going to touch him back, and he's not going to like it.

[tblue37]

314. Or bothering a boy in a way you wouldn't bother a girl. The MRAs on this

thread are upset because it is a little boy being corrected for harassing a little girl. They are reading the punishment as an example of what they want to believe is our society's (and especially the educational system's) "war on boys."

If a girl did this to a boy--as happened to seabeyond's son as a child--they might not be so defensive about the female harasser being punished. In fact, most of us who think this boy was appropriately punished considering the specifics of this case would be annoyed if a school punished the victim of such harassment if she finally defended herself by smacking or knocking down the boy who was bothering her, as so often does happen when a victim defends himself or herself against a bully.

But I bet that if the victim of unwanted kissing, touching, and enforced isolation from friends were a boy and his harasser were a girl, these same MRAs would defend the *boy's* right to knock the female bully down as a way of protecting himself against her.

Their issue is that they think the school is being "mean" to the boy because he is a *boy*, not appropriately disciplining him for harassing another child even after having been warned to stop by her and by responsible adults.

Or maybe as someone else says upthread, they are just stirring caca for the sake of stirring caca. (Or maybe even a bit of both.)

[MattBaggins]

235. Umm no.

Running around kissing girls without permission is not a common problem for boys.

[CTyankee]

361. If that is true, then I would hope it is because schools are stopping boys from

overstepping boundaries early on. Prevention is indeed best and I think that is all what is being argued for here. And it goes the same for girls.

Years ago, before the second wave of feminism, there was a "boys will be boys" mindset. Now it is understood and treated as bullying and harassing. I don't see any problem with this sort of prevention.

[KitSileya]

53. The boy was suspended for a third time offense of kissing a girl.

It started with two boys kissing her, they were admonished, one of them stopped. the second earned in-school suspension, and then, when he didn't stop, he was suspended and had his behavior labelled sexual harassment in his school file. When the mom was told this, she went to the media, because her boy has a crush, so he should be allowed to kiss his girlfriend, and really, the girl wanted it (except, you know, not, as it turned out later.)

In the two threads on the issue, I was practically the only one to say that it is ok for the school to discipline a child for kissing in school when the school has deemed that inappropriate, and it is the third offense. Granted, I assumed that the girl wasn't willing, based on what the principal said about protecting her and the only one defending this boy being his mother. It turned out that I was right, but a lot of DUers just saw this as a boy kissing a girl in class, and the school suspending him for it. They did not read the article (must be my most charitable conclusion) where the principal stated that they worked with the pupil and their families before they went so far as suspension, and where it was said that the boy had been suspended for the same infraction before (in other words, it had happened at least twice before.)

[Egalitarian Thug]

60. OK, thank you all very much for the replies, I've read three articles now,

and it appears that yes indeed, you all went insane while I wasn't paying attention.

A six year old sexually harassing another six year old, seriously...

OK, let's all take a step back and just consider that statement...

What future?

[seabeyond]

67. ya. that is about how the mom responded. hence, missing the opportunity to teach her son

appropriate behavior. where he would not be a disruption at school, bullying another student, or get himself kicked out of class for a couple days.

that attitude, you know... meh.

[Vashta Nerada]

68. The six year old sexual predator should have his future ruined.

Kissing little girls on the cheek is a gateway to playing doctor.

[JI7]

71. his mother is the one who went to the media and put him on TV for anyone to see

[Egalitarian Thug]

80. If I had kids I would get them so far away from this nation of bat-shit insane maniacs,

they would be in their teens before they ever even heard of the United States of America. No, strike that, they would be attending actual schools where teaching and learning are the primary objectives, so they would learn of this asylum's existence in third grade(?), but no details until they are mature enough to understand what constitutes mental illness.

[Vashta Nerada]

81. I would literally be afraid to send my kid to kindergarten.

I wouldn't want her to be sexually harassed by sick predators. Ugh. Little boys, who have no concept of sexual harassment, kissing little girls? That shouldn't be happening!

[KitSileya]

86. Little boys, kissing girls who do not want it, and not stopping when told to stop?

Yeah, that shouldn't be happening. Or do you think the girl should just accept his behavior? Acquiesce to whatever the boy wants? Be refused to play with anyone else because that is what the boy wants?

You have shown remarkably little concern for the girl in this case, whose mother has had to teach her at 6 years old how to defend herself from sexual harassment...

[Vashta Nerada]

87. Woah.

Way to ignore my post.

[JI7]

89. nothing happened to the boy who stopped when told to stop

[Egalitarian Thug]

101. You mean the little six year old girl who had to endure multiple kisses on her

cheek and that next week, will be licking the crap out of this, or some other little six year old boy's shins?

What about when somebody pulls somebody's hair, really hard? Jail time?

Maybe the real problem is that too few of us remember what being six years old means.

[KitSileya]

105. They told him to stop.

In fact, they told both him and another boy to stop. The other boy stopped. This boy did not. He got an in-school suspension. He didn't stop. So he got a suspension. No one has said anything about jail. The school has stated that the police is not involved. Notes on his punishments will not be forwarded to his next school.

Maybe the real problem here is that so few of us are willing to accept that girls and others do not have to suffer when someone decides "they have a crush" and just accept being kissed anywhere anytime. Maybe the real problem is that so few are willing to accept that this is a small and more innocent symptom of a larger cultural problem, that of women being told they have to give their time, their attention, their bodies to men who engage them - because these men weren't whent hey were 6 year old boys that kissing someone who doesn't want it is wrong, and if they persist in doing so, there will be consequences.

[Egalitarian Thug]

108. Please re-read the last sentence of my previous reply. You really need it. n/t

[KitSileya]

109. That few of us remember how it is being six?

Well, I refuse to accept that this is just 6-year olds being 6 year olds. Even if it was, it is unwanted behavior that we don't want him to continue - when should we stop him then? Should we let it go now, and not punish him, and then have to stop worse behavior later? Kissing today. 10 years down the line, it may be unwanted touching, and 15 years down the line, it may be rape. Or to use your own analogy - hair pulling today, kicking tomorrow, beating in 5 years. We shouldn't suspend a kid who pulls someone's hair for the third time? Suspension is equal to jail time?

[Egalitarian Thug]

113. I rest my case. n/t

[seabeyond]

136. your "case" was full of ridiculous absurdities. nt

[bettyellen]

176. perhaps you'd be happier in parts of India or Africa where little girls are routinely abused?

would that make you happier? sounds like it.

[Puglover]

354. Agreed.

One of the many reasons we bailed is being illustrated beautifully in this thread.

[geek tragedy]

184. Your lack of concern for protecting the girl in this case is duly noted.

Extreme libertarianism complete with latent rape culture.

[lumberjack_jeff]

434. People who use words like "persistent molester" to describe a 6 year old?

Yes, quite far around the bend.

[MattBaggins]

234. No

Yesterday the mother of a boy that had kissed a girl was on the TV complaining thay her poor boy was being over punished and the usual "I hate the Nanny State Libertarian wanna be" DU typpes were scraming about PC over reaction. As predicted by many on DU, as the truth came out it may actually be that the young boy has behavioral problems and wasn't just some poor little kid who snuck his first kiss.

Most of the DUers who jumped the gun blasting the school for giving him a suspension are keeping quiet now that the truth is out, but a few persistent types are still trying to suggest that young boys have the right to repeatedly sneak up and kiss girls that have asked to be left alone.

They are an interesting bunch.

[rawtribe]

58. The ultimate Rorschach Test.

Very telling.

[JI7]

72. looks like there are some who think Girls should be forced to allow guys to touch them as they want

just like wingnuts who want to control female bodies .

[Nanjing to Seoul]

73. Six year old boys don't know which side of their underwear smells the worst

I'll quote Carlin: "The poor little fuck. He can barely locate his dick."

Sexually harassment a six year old. Bullying yes. . .sexual harassment????

[MattBaggins]

236. You opinion of the terms is irrelevant

For the purpose of documentation; unwanted kissing, is in fact sexual harassment.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

251. The kid is six years old. Whatever happened to sitting down with his mother in the principal's

office and going over the concept of proper and improper behavior. Does everything today require lawyers and police?

BTW, good dismissive response.

[seabeyond]

255. they did. a number of times. first talk. then time out. then inschool detention. then suspension

one boy stopped at the talk. the second boy did not. the mother that said it was boys being boys and the girl wanted it, son did not stop. can you figure out why?

[Nanjing to Seoul]

272. Because they are SIX freaking years old!!!!

[seabeyond]

278. wrong. 6 yr olds are perfectly capable with appropriate and connecting parenting. just not that

hard.

the mom said it was fine. the girl wanted it. what do you think the talk to her son was like?

and btw... your question was, why dont they do the old fashion and sit and talk. they did. you didnt even acknowledge that, just moved the goal post to .... 6 yrs old

[Nanjing to Seoul]

280. Bullying yes. Sexual harassment no!

[seabeyond]

281. jeezus. the kids was not addressed about sexual fuckin harassment. they sat down and talked to the

kid, in an age appropriate manner about boundaries and unwanted touching. the only place sexual harassment was mentioned was in a report, documenting why the kid was suspended. the MOTHER told the kid about the sexual harassment. which as a mother of two boys, i would NEVER give the boys. it was only a descriptive in the file to differentiate the roughhousing he was punished for and this situation. the kid was NOT given sexual harassment by any of the teachers.

[MattBaggins]

256. There were no lawyers and cops

This was a simple proper discipline for a child that some "not my precious child" parent didn't like and went screaming to Fox.

Nothing more.

As for sexual harassment an 8 year old boy sexually assaulted another 8 year old boy in his school. His behavior started earlier than that.

[Maedhros]

74. The boy has a serious behavior problem, and suspension is an appropriate consequence for his actions

I think that the term "sexual harassment" is not quite accurate, though.

[KitSileya]

82. I think it is.

Continued unwanted kissing is sexual harassment. Unfortunately, too many read 'sexual' as having with sex/intercourse, and not with sex/gender. The US EEOC defines sexual harassment as both harassment by means of unwanted sexual gestures, and harassment done towards someone of another sex. This is clearly a case of the latter.

The really ironic thing is that no one would have known that the boy's behavior was defined that way if the mother hadn't decided to go to the media. The school has to keep these things confidential, so they couldn't have talked to the media about it. They have stated that the file is internal only, and will not follow the boy when he leaves the school district.

[Maedhros]

206. The problem is with the context.

You cite the EEOC, which applies to behavior in the workplace by adults.

Here, we are considering behavior by a young child in school. The child has not yet learned (obviously) the social rules regarding personal space, so it's hard to consider his behavior "sexual harassment" in the same sense as an adult in a work environment. In the latter case the adult is assumed to know and accept the social rules as a condition of employment and violating them is therefore grounds for dismissal.

[Deep13]

75. They have to learn when they are young.

Otherwise they will be stalkers or worse when they are older.

[JI7]

78. wow, people think the Girl was wrong to complain

[KitSileya]

84. I have not seen that here?

I have seen a lot of people who think the school overreacted, and treated the boys unfairly, and claiming that stopping the boy's behavior is sexualizing his innocent affection, and that they are setting the boy up for a life in prison.

[JI7]

85. i see it as connected

by excusing the behavior they pretty much say it's wrong to complain.

[KitSileya]

103. That is very, very true.

It is, simply put, rape culture. It is a condoning and minimizing of offensive behavior towards girls, saying that someone's bodily autonomy isn't as important as the harasser's well-being.

[MattBaggins]

237. Or that the boy learn that behavior has consequences

It would seem that after being told multiple times to stop, he should not be punished.

They are a very strange lot.

[bettyellen]

151. and these would be exactly the same people who are offended by

any discussion about rape culture.

[zentrum]

88. Suspension seems way over the top.

There's a lot of steps between his behavior and the decision to suspend that seem absent here.

There needs to be a meeting with the school principal and both the kids and both sets of parents. They need to hammer out a set of rules and consequences acceptable to the girl---with follow through if he won't comply.

But suspension is not what you do with 6 year olds. Way over-reaction.

[JI7]

90. why does the girl and her parents need to be in the meeting ?

[zentrum]

140. So they can describe to the boy's parents

...and the boy the effect of the boy's behavior and also, describe what would set it right. It's the structure of restorative justice, where the community works together to restore the damage to the whole community when something like this happens.

This is much more a problem between parents and adults and how they are doing their job, than all at the doorstep of a six year old who is really too young to understand the meaning of his actions or to get the point. This is 99% a parenting problem.

[KitSileya]

99. And if you had read the articles, you would know that these steps had been taken.

The boy had been talked to (along with another boy who engaged in the same behavior.) When he didn't stop, and including other unwanted behavior, he got an in-school suspension. This was the third time, at least, that he engaged in this behavior. The school is working with the family of the boy to stop this behavior. The mother thinks punishing him for his roughhousing is ok, but not for harassing the girl, because "the girl wanted it", she's "his girlfriend", and he has a crush on her. As you can see from the article linked and quoted in my OP, the girl does not want it, is not his girlfriend, and has had to be taught to defend herself from sexual harassment. The *other* students in his class reported him because they think his behavior is out of line.

[zentrum]

144. Not quite.

There's some vague statement by the administration that the school was working with the parents. No idea what that means or how structured it was or how often. The principal, the teachers, the boy's parents---all these people need to be put on the spot as often as necessary.

I doubt that a two day suspension will teach this kid what he needs to learn.

The parents need to be the target of change.

[seabeyond]

138. appropriate steps were taking all the way thru this and the behavior continued.

the last step was the suspension.

[Blue_In_AK]

95. The issue I have with this is equating it with some kind of sexual deviancy.

Punish him for continuing to bug her when she wanted to be left alone, but please leave the "sexual" part out of it. I don't think kids understand that when they're six. Six-year-old boys can be little jerks sometimes -- I remember being teased by boys all the time when I was little -- but it never occurred to me or any of the adults I knew to call it any kind of sexual harassment. It was just boys being jerks, and then being punished for it if it got out of hand.

I'll probably get slammed for this, but I think most of the time kids should be allowed to work out their little squabbles by themselves without adults making a big huge deal out of it. It could be true that this little boy and girl couldn't work it out and adults had to mediate, but the media furor over this is ridiculous.

If this suspension had been framed as simply a disciplinary issue of one kid misbehaving, then it wouldn't have drawn all this national attention.

[JI7]

97. it got national attention because his mother who lied about the girl wanting it went to the media

and put her son on tv .

he isn't being charged as some seemed to think earlier on. it's kept in school and would not leave the school. but i prefer they note certain behaviors.

and as was mentioned before, this isn't just something he did once. he was told to stop. the other boy stopped so nothing happened to him. but this boy keeps doing it and there is a serious problem with that.

[Blue_In_AK]

100. Right, and I understand that,

which is why I said punishment was appropriate. I wasn't aware of how this story got started, but now it appears there are two sides, as always. Maybe somebody should have had a mediation with the mothers before the incident blew up nationally.

[MattBaggins]

238. No it was the fault of the boys mother

she dragged the girls mother into it by saying her daughter was OK with it.

She had no right to lie about the little girl. You lie about someone they are likely to respond.

[seabeyond]

245. the parents were talked to asking them to tell boys it was not acceptable. one boy stopped

one did not. you see how the mother, whose son did not stop, handled it. the girl wanted it.

[Major Nikon]

104. You should realize there are a lot of parents out there who encourage this behavior

Were it something the kids are coming up with on their own, it might be one thing but generally it's not. You have a lot of parents out there who encourage this behavior because they moronically believe if they do so it will influence the child's sexual orientation later on down the road.

Kids should be taught not to sexually harass other kids even at this age. Unfortunately they have to be untaught much of the fucked up garbage they bring from home. Nobody should have to deal with unwanted sexual behavior, even if they are 6. If you don't teach them these things at this age, then when do you? I have to deal with adults at work that still haven't figured this shit out. They would be a lot better off if they had learned it at 6.

[KitSileya]

110. I totally agree with you.

You are absolutely right on this. Thank you for stating it so clearly.

[Blue_In_AK]

112. Yeah, some parents are pretty fucked up, apparently.

My kids are all grown, so I guess I'm not really in touch.


I'll go away now.

[KitSileya]

107. It wouldn't have drawn national attention if the mother hadn't gone to the press.

As I have stated elsewhere, unwanted kissing is sexual harassment - and even if the boy doesn't mean it in a sexualized way, it is harassment of the girl because she is a girl, and that constitutes sexual harassment under the US EEOC.

I think that it is important for this girl, who is having her school day ruined by this boy's behavior (refusing to let her play with other kids, kissing her again and again) that she be supported in this. This isn't a little squabble. This is a boy who has "roughhoused" with other kids and been punished for that, so this girl knows very well that the boy could hurt her if he wants. He has been rough with other kids. It is out of hand, and they've punished him with milder punishment before without it working.

This idea of letting the kids work it out themselves is all well and good in the first time, but it didn't work this time, and the school fortunately and correctly stepped in.

[Egalitarian Thug]

111. The girl that lived on the corner, Karen Cornelius (Yes, I still remember her name) used to kick

the ever-lovin' shit out of me every day in the third grade. I guess my parents should have had her ass thrown out of school. After all, she was clearly intent on imposing unwanted attention on this innocent little boy over and over again, and I was assured at least a dozen times that all that meant was that she liked me, but didn't know how to express her feelings.

As I said in a previous reply here, the nation has simply gone off the deep end.

[seabeyond]

139. or a parent can do there job and address the issue instead of ignoring. giving a valued lesson to

all involved.

as i said earlier. when my son was confronted with this behavior i addressed the teachers. then when it did not stop with one girl i told her to knock it off. problem solved. if need be, i would have ahd conversation. i did not need to.

my son learned. a little girl was not allowed to walk by and continually pinch his ear causing him pain. adults had his back. it worked both ways with gender. not one sided. his comfort in his environment was as important as this little girls comfort is in her environment.

this is basic parenting. and not tough at all. instill these lessons and life is really easy for a kid

oh, the horrors

[MattBaggins]

239. You really really really live in a bizarre world

if you believe that boys shouldn't be taught they may not run around forcibly kissing girls who ask them to stop. Yes that girl should have been made to stop. She should have been taught appropriate behavior as the school is trying to do with this child before he progresses on to worse behavior.


YOU may have gone off the deep end. You just don't get it.

What a strange post to make.

[Egalitarian Thug]

445. The irony of that reply is so rich on so many levels, one has to wonder whether

it was luck or comic genius.

Either way, thank you very much.

[Deep13]

330. Seriously?

It's about a physical assault. Granted, it didn't cause an injury, but it was an unwanted, intimate contact that was repeated despite warnings. The idea is to teach the boy that girls do not exist for his entertainment.

[Ed Suspicious]

106. Maybe the fiery language of sexual harassment isn't quite appropriate. Perhaps it could have

been couched in terms of personal space, respecting people's boundaries, or something a little less stigmatizing. I can't think of anyone more deserving of repeated chances than a 6-year-old. I think there needs to be some teaching done without essentially labeling the kid a pre-rapist or a future threat to society.

[KitSileya]

114. From the EEOC website

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.

As you can see, sexual harassment need not be sexualized. The school labeled his behavior sexual harassment. IN his file. NOT in the media. NOT telling other parents, or even other schools. The MOTHER went to the media bemoaning the fact that her son's behavior was labelled sexual harassment and that him kissing a girl he had a crush on and who "wanted it" shouldn't have been noted in his CONFIDENTIAL file.

In other words, nobody labelled the kid a pre-rapist, but a lot of people thought the school shouldn't have suspended him for kissing the girl, even tho' it was at least the third offense, and he was creating quite a hostile school environment for the girl.

[Major Nikon]

118. I deal with this behavior at work

...to the extent that I've fired people for it.

What I've noticed is that some people do not seem to be able to correct their own behavior. Most do and will learn from the first warning and not repeat it (whether that changes their attitude is a different matter). However, even with repeated warnings some will just continue to do it even if they know what the end result is. I've seen adults piss away 6 figure incomes. It's absolutely bizarre.

Sometimes I wonder if such people didn't pick this shit up in grammar school.

[KitSileya]

122. I do hope the boy will correct his behavior.

However, he is creating a hostile environment for this girl, and with his roughhousing for other kids. In school, they have a chance to work with him on this, and teach him how to behave. You cannot deny him an education over this - he has the right to his education. However, he does not have a right to continue his behavior, and perhaps if it continues, he cannot be given his education in this school. At that point, the rights of the girl and the other kids weigh more heavily, and perhaps he would have to be transferred.

Should he continue his behavior past his age of majority, and into the workplace, I hope his employers fire him with due process. Most likely, thanks to his mother, he may have problems being hired in the first place.

[MADem]

115. That kid needs some help.

I saw him on television--it's obvious that he was parroting a parent when he smirked on about six year olds having "a lotta energy," giving the cutesy smile as if he was anticipating a positive reaction to his comment, with a shrug that looks like he copied the gesture from his ma. It would not surprise me at all if his parent rails against the "mean old school" and the "crabby girl and her parent/s" and reinforces the shitty behavior by the child.

I feel sorry for the kid, he's being raised wrong. That's what the problem is, here, IMO.

If he has a compulsion that causes him to repeatedly violate personal space, well, there are medications and behavior modification therapy for that. The problem could be, though, that no one at home ever tells him that NO means NO. It's hard to let those lessons and second chances sink in when the child is getting mixed signals.

[Major Nikon]

116. He's just an excitable boy

[KitSileya]

117. What is certain is, that no matter what he is,

he doesn't have parents that will help him curb this particular behavior. and a mother that has plastered his name all over the media in a case where he is in the wrong. It could have been handled quietly, with none being the wiser, but now, when prospective employers google him, this is what'll come up. I feel sorry for the boy, and I worry for him, but I do not think the school handled this wrongly.

[MADem]

119. He's a good little approval-seeking parrot, like a lot of little kids are.

I feel badly for the little shit. I think at least some of his conduct is learned behavior.

[Major Nikon]

121. I agree

But I was channeling Warren Zevon, which your post reminded me of.

[MADem]

123. Ahhh, d'oh!

[BainsBane]

331. You don't know that

None of us do. He could have problems at home where his own boundaries have been violated so often he doesn't know how to respect the boundaries of others. That the parents don't see a problem in his repeatedly touching girls after he's been told no is clearly a concern.

[Major Nikon]

349. ...

[seabeyond]

352. you say ask, so i ask. having read your post above, you unequivocally say this behavior was wrong.

unlike many men on this thread. it was refreshing. so. i ask. putting this up, this was sarcasm? that people are saying he was just an "excitable" boy. not an excuse, dismissal, apology for behavior. right?

[Major Nikon]

355. Warren Zevon's macabre tale is of a boy that everyone dismissed as excitable

Referencing it was most definitely tongue in cheek. However, I do believe that the earlier these things are addressed, the better off the person will be later in life. Some of the most important things we learned regarding behavior were taught in grammar school.

As I pointed out earlier, people teach this shit to their kids and it's wrong on many levels. I'm no child psychologist, but I can't help but believe it affects people later in life. Even if it doesn't, kids shouldn't have to put up with this shit if it is unwanted no more than adults should.

[seabeyond]

358. thanks. i agree. one does not have to be a child psychologist to know. all one does is have to be

a parent, connected to the child and look around. it is evident everywhere.

[Major Nikon]

367. Imagine if the story was about two boys instead of a boy and a girl

...and the parents of one boy complained and the school wrote it off as boys will be boys. Somehow I think the Faux news story and the public outrage would have gone in a much different direction.

[seabeyond]

373. true. i imagine you see there would have been outrage. or equally, and was asked often

the last couple days, if a girl did this to a boy. would the feminist speak up. people assuming we women would dismiss the behavior.

i have stated often on du that this happened one way or another with both boys. and i and the school stood behind both boys, validating their feelings reinforcing their rights.

someone on the thread said this is not a feminist issue. it isnt. people should keep that out of this discussion. it is a parenting issue in my perspective.

[Major Nikon]

375. It wouldn't matter even if it was a feminist issue

It's moronic to assume feminists are wrong all the time.

I see it as both a parenting issue and a school issue. If we don't allow adults to get away with this behavior, why on earth should we allow children to do it? It doesn't matter if the children don't fully understand it. We don't allow kids to do all sorts of things they don't fully understand.

[seabeyond]

383. you were not the one repeated told... you hate men. over and over in these threads.

or accused that the only reason speaking up is my mean old bad feminist self, ergo, dismissing anything i said.

so, though i get for you, on this issue, feminism would not have mattered.

for me, being repeatedly attacked by the same men i am always attacked by.... repeatedly insulted and told i hate men, repeatedly ignored yet told i am arguing something, i am not....

ya. it matters

[Major Nikon]

388. Sounds more like a derision of you personally than one of feminism

But I won't dispute that some people are decidedly anti-feminist, and it wouldn't surprise me if that includes some DUers. For the record I have never considered you as someone who hates men and would reject that assertion. Even if someone believed that the very best they would have is ad hominem.

[seabeyond]

390. come on major.... we both know the reality of it. nt

[Major Nikon]

402. I alluded to the reality

I don't dismiss it. I'm just not a part of it. I don't dispute that some are. I think we agree here.

If you say something I agree with and someone says something different, I have no problem calling bullshit. I don't see it as a matter of taking sides. I am not against everything you are for. Not even close.

[BainsBane]

357. It's only the lives of two human beings

Why should you care? I will point out for everyone reading that you have sent me a series of quite cordial and thoughtful PMs, yet somehow peer pressure means you feel compelled to mock me in public forums rather than engaging in thoughtful debate. People can draw their own conclusions as to what that says about you. I would have thought by adulthood, a person would have the strength of character to be able to express what he actually thinks without belittling people simply for attempting to engage in dialog. But if that is who you choose to be, so be it.

One thing about me, is I never lack the courage of my convictions. I am who I am, and believe what I say, whether in public or private.

[Major Nikon]

372. Peer pressure is meaningless to me

I always give people the benefit of the doubt unless they give me reason to believe otherwise. I'll remind you that on our very first exchange you defamed me in the worst sort of way without even reading my posts (by your own admission). That didn't exactly endear you to me. I'm not convinced you're immune to peer pressure.

Just sayin'

[last1standing]

120. I think there are two victims of abuse here.

From what I gather, that little girl has definitely been abused, and so has that little boy. It appears his mother has either encouraged this or at least neglected to teach her child basic socializing skills.

Worse, this kind of repeated behavior, after being warned and punished several times, suggests the child is acting out for some reason. Based on his mother's "look at me!" attitude over the affair I have to think that household needs a visit from CPS. Why didn't the boy's mother address this problem the first time? Or the second? Or the third? Why is she now screaming about her child being labeled when she did absolutely nothing to resolve the issue previously?

What has caused this child to act out with such force and determination? I really have no clue but I do know that little boy needs therapy and his mother needs to be interviewed then trained on how to deal with this kind of thing appropriately.

Harassment at the hands of a child is no less traumatizing to a little girl (or boy) than harassment at the hands of an adult.

[KitSileya]

124. I have been vary of suggesting that he may have been abused.

I have raised the idea in one sub-thread, but I really, really hope he hasn't. However, it should be clear to all that his mother isn't behaving appropriately either, with her claims that "the girl wanted it" and that they are "boyfriend and girlfriend" when this is very clearly not the case, and that it is an on-going harassment issue. It should be clear, but isn't, apparently.

[katsy]

201. Ding ding ding winner

I have boy/girl twins.

They are lucky to have 2 well adjusted males in their lives, my dad & their father both of whom never ever had any desire to invade any space beyond their own noses. Seriously honorable people there so my son in particular is going to touch people in most welcome ways in his lifetime.

At age 3 they were separated when fighting and encouraged to use words after taking a few steps back. It was a consistent >>> stop.... Back up... Now speak. This routine was applied consistently every time aggression was shown. Conflict between them seemed to go on forever. I feel deprived of seeing my kids behavior as >>> how cute is that!!!!! More like >>> the little pfhuckers are going to kill one another unless they learn not to! Sorry! It was not all cuteness and rainbow pooping.

I don't see aggression as being a boy kinda thingy to be expected of their behavior so my son never had to unlearn bad behavior.

In both my children's upbringing teaching them to never invade OTHER peoples space has been 100% our top priority parenting goal. It was a boring suckish full-time job until 2nd nature kicked.

If a child exhibits aggressiveness like this kid at issue, and barring mental health issues... Maybe start laying fines on the parents. Or something idk.

[seabeyond]

300. exactly katsy. right on. my boys fought very little and last 5 yrs none at all. they shared

a room too, all their lives and even though had option to have own rooms, was comfortable as was. a lot of behavior we attribute to just natural, absolutely is not. i cannot stand sibling fighting. so it was a top priority for me that i did not have it in my house. and like you, it starts young. takes lotsa lotsa time. and wow.... get this stuff done early, it makes teenage years so easy and like way fun. well well worth it. exhausting in younger years. but when life is more dangerous, well worth having kids that think things thru.

[Deep13]

332. True. Gender conditioning affects both sexes.

Males are indoctrinated into expected gender-specific behavior the same as females are. This boy only knows what he has seen and has heard. This makes it all the more important to teach him to respect personal boundaries.

[Soundman]

125. Threads like these make one thing perfectly clear

There are some seriously damaged people that have landed here.

[KitSileya]

126. That was a very diplomatic post -

no way of knowing which side of the debate you're talking about! Or perhaps you're talking about people on both sides, while each thinks you're talking about the other side.

[Sheldon Cooper]

127. Yes.

[Soundman]

129. Cute n/t

[Lasher]

143. I don't understand your position, please explain. Honest question.

Do you think people are overreacting? Is that it? I can't tell.

[Soundman]

182. I will,

I think this is an issue that has been so blown out of proportion it isn't funny. I don't believe a prepubescent child can be guilty of sexual anything. Yet there are a contingent of those among us who seem to grasp on to (and hang on to for dear life) ANYTHING that can even remotely make men (even as children) seem like villains, evil, vile and lower than slugs. These damaged souls seem to lack the ability to use any other filter when they see an issue, any issue. Every issue goes through the same filter, and the conversation always ends up the same. Damaged....... I lived this for 18 years of my life so my radar is well tuned.


The issue IMO comes back to parenting. These children are more than likely having their first social interactions and need to learn boundaries. Nothing more nothing less again in my opinion.

I hope I was clear. I suffer from nearly debilitating add and it takes me forever to write even simple things (why I will more than likely always remain a low count poster). It took me over half an hour to compose this simple thing, that included two trips to look out the window, a minute to rub my fat cats belly, a trip to the coffee maker and brief tour of the TV guide, was that a squirrel I just saw?

[seabeyond]

187. since you so unfailry put us in a box, be clear i have seen all of us address the mom as the issue.

not the little boy. the little boy was let down from the parents inability to parent her child and instill boundaries that would behoove the kid. boundaries that would not have put this kid in this position. boundaries that ALL kids at this age very much need and want so life is not so friggin hard and confusing.

got that

that is not labeling making the kid, ergo man, as the villian. that is addressing the issue raising our little ones and our responsibilities as a parent.

your caricature is way off base and insulting.

the only ones not serving this child are the ones that are behaving just like the mom. shrugging their shoulds and saying boys will be boys. that does not serve this boy. it sets him up for failure.

and i was pretty sure that is what you meant in your original post.

[Soundman]

191. Wow you type fast,

And why are you so sure this has anything to do with you? And as far as I know I wasn't responding to you, yet you address me as the one I was, curious to say the least.

[seabeyond]

195. ya. and if it is not addressed to me, and the group you are talking, you would be wrong

and the same holds true when i spoke of self. what you created is not happening. i explained in that post what was happening.

you created a caricature that does not exist. and you really did not address the points i made in my post. you purposely went out of the way to insult people that take the issue of child development, parenting, and our school system seriously.

[Lasher]

217. Thanks for elaborating, but I didn't realize I'd be inviting you into a hornets' nest.

DU has gotten way too uptight. The term "sexual harassment" has been used a total of 36 times in this thread (38 now that I've used it twice here) about an incident between two 6 year old children. OK, the little boy had been pestering the little girl and was disciplined because he wouldn't stop. That's a good thing, something needed to be done. But characterizing his behavior as sexual harassment seems draconian.

[Soundman]

219. I agree

And thank you for the kind words they mean more than you know. This has really dredged up some painful memories. I should have just kept it short and sweet.

[MattBaggins]

240. Yes prepubescent children can be sexual

An 8 year old boy in a local school was sexually assaulting another boy in his class. That is only two years older than this boy.

[bettyellen]

406. lot's of my friends teach, and it is disturbing to hear what some 6-10 year olds do and say.

some have seen a lot, and start to ape what they seer- including sexually aggressive behavior.
I am surprised so many here do not know this.

[seabeyond]

414. of course they know. some even brag about how young kids are watching porn. and brag about

how they have to learn about sex sometimes. but... to actually address the effects would be to touch that oh so precious, hands off subject.

we are all aware.

too man lie to themselves though to be able to digest....

[geek tragedy]

186. Yes, lots of people perpetuating rape culture and who see

no problem with telling boys that sexual assault is okay because boys will be boys.

Lots of sexist/misogynist pigs here, unfortunately. I hope they aren't raising sons.

[geek tragedy]

202. if you talk about women at all here, it has been to use or defend sexist language

or otherwise disparage feminism.

Including a grotesque lack of sympathy for female rape victims:

As if life doesn't suck bad enough these incessant posts and pictures (like that retarded one in the op), from those who have no clue, only serves to torment others who do. I find that picture extra offensive. I am sure they didn't tell them not to murder, or to rob. What that girl needs is a brain. Everyone knows it is against the law to rape, wtf planet are you from? And how is feminism supposed to stop rapes? I guess it is out of style to accept the reality of the world? I have seen so many of my friends die from drugs, they knew the risks, and didn't wake up wanting to get an in curable disease, or overdose, but they did it anyway, and NOTHING. Was going to stop them.

I wish those to the far left would some day understand that humans can't be educated to not harm themselves or others. Isn't going to happen. So you can have focus groups, and be outraged all you want, you will never change human nature. The fact is, a certain percentage of the population are a situation away from rape, murder, or robbery. You may not like it, too bad, it is the facts of life. Some people can't be reached. You can either pretend it away or take responsibility. Seriously....I passed out and was raped? Well duh.... Do you not have a clue about the male species? When i read something like that, it may as well say i picked up a snake and it bit me. Unfortunately woman have no more of a clue of what would motivate a man to rape then men know what it is like to give birth.

Here is some solid advice, Never trust a man when it comes to sex, ever. They will lie to you, and even rape you to get sex. It does not make it right. It is a reality one should be aware of. Take it from someone who knows far more than any human being should have to about the subject. Be aware and beware. Well, my lovely wife just presented me with my dinner salad and gave me the look... I have more to say, but it is dinner time.

Not only are you incorrect in denying the existence of rape culture, you perpetuate rape culture here.

And, of course, your pattern of lecturing racial minorities that they're insufficiently rational when it comes to cases like Trayvon Martin:

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=3668

I feel sorry for you.

I just realized the post I responded to is in the A.A. Group. I don't normally read groups I just read the latest threads and post if something catches my attention. So I probably should not have bothered posting.

Any way I do feel sorry for you and blue t, both. Call me what you wish my deeds and actions speak for themselves and some moron on a message board will never change that. I hope to god that I never ever become like the sad souls here that can't be objective. I have been in several fist fights with wing nuts defending my democratic beliefs, quit a job, and alienated half the people I have ever known (more like 75%) defending what I believe in.

Call me what you want I could give a shit less. I cast my first vote for Carter and have never checked the box for a right winger ever since. So if I am not Democrat enough for you, I respectfully say go fuck yourself.

So, grain of salt.

[geek tragedy]

211. Holy shit, I rest my case .

What the militants can't seem to grasp is that it is a numbers game, one out of every so many people will be x, if you choose to ignore this FACT you are doing so at your own peril. Don't come crying to me because you chose to ignore it. Like the person that is repeatedly warned that this dog bites, stay away, but for whatever reason they ignore the advice and go and get themselves bit. Should I feel sorry for them? And why?

Rape culture exists because of people with your beliefs.

More:

One last complaint I have with the militants as I choose to call them. I see women on a weekly basis throwing themselves at men. I see them willingly giving band members blow jobs at breaks. I see them getting laid between sets. I had a guy say to my wife one night, and I shit you not. My wife just went and fucked (artist to remain nameless) in the bathroom, should I be mad? I think the militant type feminists would be using their time better educating their fellow females about appropriate behavior,

The fail is strong with you.

[seabeyond]

213. i guess the only solution for empathy is all women and girls stay far far away from all men

and boys to ensure we are never bit?

how else would you conclude that statement. it is not like it is branded on the forehead....

i bite.

wouldnt work well with the continuation of us, though. ah well. dont want to be stupid, in soundmans thinking.

[geek tragedy]

214. You should be lecturing women to be

celibate and to suppress their sexuality, not being mean to teh menz because it's the woman's fault if they rape her, menz gonna do what menz gonna do.

[seabeyond]

215. ya know....

cheers.

[Soundman]

218. As I stated

Twist, deflect, criticize, make fun of. Pretty much as I predicted. You like to take words twist them to mean what you want and use that to prove a point that has no bearing in reality. You live in a make believe world. I live in a world where statistics tell me that a certain percentage of people will behave in a certain way. It doesn't matter if I want them to or not. It is a fact. And yes I believe one should clean up the dog shit in their own yard before they complain about the smell coming from the neighbors. Sorry if your bias doesn't allow you to agree. I have the feeling your the type that has never taken responsibility for your own actions in any situation. Instead you blame others for the woes that befall you. Seen it a thousand times.

I guess your poor spelling was supposed to be some kind of joke? I don't get it. If my spelling is bad I apologize, if I hit spell check or preview using this ipad I lose everything I have typed.

It's a shame. In reality where people actually know me I am a trusted loyal friend who can be counted on when things go wrong. The kind of person that has literally given the shirt off their back to some one in need. Gone without so others don't have to. Taken the blow so another could escape. I deserve better than this that's for sure, but then again, deserve has nothing to with it. It's my choice, as they say, if you lay down with dogs don't cry when you get fleas.

[geek tragedy]

220. The reality is that you said that women who get raped bring it upon themselves

and that you have no sympathy for them.

And that you find women engaging in promiscuous sex to be the proper evil for feminists to be fighting.

Such foolishness begs to be mocked.

[Soundman]

223. Could you please show

Me in quotations where I sad those words, I will wait.

[geek tragedy]

225. right here

What the militants can't seem to grasp is that it is a numbers game, one out of every so many people will be x, if you choose to ignore this FACT you are doing so at your own peril. Don't come crying to me because you chose to ignore it. Like the person that is repeatedly warned that this dog bites, stay away, but for whatever reason they ignore the advice and go and get themselves bit. Should I feel sorry for them? And why?

Rape culture and victim-blaming at its most repulsive. Straight outta Steubenville.

Even more:

. A certain percentage of our population are sick fucks and ignoring that fact makes one partially culpable for their own fate. So in closing all I can say is excuse the fuck out of me if I don't show the same degree of sympathy for a woman that got a man into the throws of sexual congress and then says stop and he doesn't. I don't remotely equate that to the poor soul who comes home and gets raped and brutalized for no reason other than she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Rape apologism and Todd Akinism and blatant woman-hating filth.

[geek tragedy]

230. Yes, your stance is that unless women are wearing burkas they provoke rapists

and deserve no sympathy if they get raped, because they're bringing it upon themselves.

You say deserve, I say no sympathy.I reserve my sympathy for those who have bad things happen to them beyond their control. No matter what they did they couldn't have avoided the outcome.

One last try on my part. To see if you can understand my point of view,short of insulting me. If you are at a concert. Say the venue holds 30k people let's say it is hard rock concert and 20k of those people are male. How many are potential rapists by the numbers? 50? I won't claim to know but I am certain you will have these numbers handy. If you know (50?) of these guys are potential rapists why on earth would you take any chances and press your luck? By pressing your luck I am referring to dressing provocatively. Hmm provocatively...seems the word provoke is in there somewhere....

That is profound misogyny. The idea that women provoke rape by the way they dress is barbaric. And I would hope your granddaughter disregards every single thing you tell her about gender relations.

[MattBaggins]

244. You are a horrible person

[BainsBane]

329. But he can't be

He's on "our team." If that's my team, we need a new league.

[BainsBane]

295. In response to your post below

The number is about 5,000 (if we're talking about people who have actually raped). Potential is of course much higher. Some studies say as many as 35% of men say they would take actions that qualify as rape if they could get away with it. See the excerpt below.

What makes you think you are on the same team as me or other "militant feminists"? Having read your post below, your values could not be further away from mine. I believe rapists are responsible for rape, not their victims. Teaching women not to be raped? Are you serious? Women grow up in this society from a very early age learning to protect themselves from predators, including those who thit's only 'natural" for a man to rape a woman who is asleep or passed out. If you were what my team was composed of, we would be truly doomed. Fortunately, I know the majority of men would never say the sorts of things you do. You think voting Democrat earns you points? That's complete crap. Your posts make it clear you are no ally of mine, not in this millennium.

99% of people who rape are men, 60% are Caucasian. (7)
• Between 62% (4) and 84% (1) of survivors knew their attacker.
• 8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape. (1)
• More than one in five men report "becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent." (8)
• 35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn't be caught or punished. (9)
• One out of every 500 college students is infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. (10)
• First-year students in college tend to believe more rape myths than seniors. (11)
• Sexual assault offenders were substantially more likely than any other category of violent criminal to report experiencing physical or sexual abuse as children. (7)
• In one study, 98% of men who raped boys reported that they were heterosexual. (12)

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php4

[Dorian Gray]

345. If you've got to work so hard

to convince people, it's probably not reality.

[JI7]

270. wow, he thinks it's inappropriate women to have sex because she enjoys it

with whoever.

yet he defends rape, harrassment etc where the women don't want it.

so because a woman may enjoy having sex with some guys it's ok for any guy to just come in and demand the same and rape her if she doesn't want them ........................

[seabeyond]

282. and he is going to teach his granddaughter. nt

[bettyellen]

420. classic whore virgin thing. if you have sex with someone else, why not me too? unless you're in

a committed relationship with someone in my peer group, you must be a slut who I will try to fuck, and then judge for it. but the Mom, GF , sister.... they are saints, and would kill anyone who said those same things about them.

[seabeyond]

427. " but the Mom, GF , sister.... they are saints,"... unless they do something than man deems makes

them the whore.

yes.

[underpants]

131. I knew there was more to this story

Thanks

[KitSileya]

134. Yes, but even before the girl's family commented,

This was a disturbing story - disturbing more for the reaction here and elsewhere than for the situation described. Accepting that a boy who has been told at least twice to stop kissing a girl shouldn't be punished - that it was cute and innocent and lovely that a boy kept kissing a girl, even had she been willing, in class when her had been told to stop... What boggles my mind isn't the poor boy and the poor girl, it's the adults that stood around cooing about it.

[underpants]

137. Another drama/hoax by our bubble media

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 11:17 AM - Edit history (2)

I just thought that this can't be that simple and the way the RW Media and my RW FB friends went on about it I could sense that this was complete BS.

The kid got in trouble (as he should have) and mom ran to the media to get in front of a non story and play victim

[Lasher]

148. I agree with your every word.

This is not one of those cases where school officials overreacted.

[underpants]

161. Thank you

And Happy Holidays!!!

[1awake]

133. Sexual Harassment for this boy is a sad joke.

Bullying... yes. Misconduct... yes. Detention/suspension/referral to counseling... yes. NOT being labeled as a sexual predator at age freaking 6.

When I was in elementary school, there was a group of girls who would chase boys around throwing their arms around them and try and kiss them on the cheek. I guess they were all predators to? I guess the girl in 3rd grade who while watching a movie in school, told me she had a secret to tell me and then quickly kissed me without my permission was one as well?

This girl was bullied.

[exboyfil]

142. Sexual aggressiveness even at that age

can have a lasting impact on a child. Someone very close to me was forced to "kiss it" by a peer of her age when they were 5/6. She still has issues with it over 10 years later. Maybe we need a different term for it, and it should be treated as any other battery (which schools do not take seriously enough either), but don't think that it won't impact the victim.

[Decaffeinated]

141. He... is... six...

Idiocy abounds... How has the world gotten by for thousands of years until this moronic need to stamp down normal behavior came about?

It's a miracle we are even here at all...

[seabeyond]

145. and yet another post of boys will be boys. there is a whole lot to address with this issue from a

child development perspective

what you offer is a fail to the little boy.

yes... the idiocy of dismissal of this issue seems to know no bounds here on du anyway.

[truebrit71]

315. You're a real piece of work...

...your man-hating extends to six year olds now? What an awful, dark, fearful world you live in...he is six years old for crying out loud...

[seabeyond]

316. man hating. i stand up for the boy, capable of comprehending and needing the guiding hand of the

parent to be given the tools he will need to successfully navigate the social environment as he grows, and the mothers lack of parenting that does harm to this child.

and you reduce me to a man hater. picking on the boy.

the men on this thread that dismiss the behavior and say this is all who the boy is. why would we expect more out of a boy. boys are not capable. those are the men, that are the man haters.

i do not dismiss the child as incapable. i am angry at the mother for not doing her job and putting this boy in the position that he is in.

children need boundaries. children WANT boundaries. and this kid is not being given what he needs to succeed.

and you, and other men are the same mentality as the mother, that helps this boy to fail.

i am the man hater?

i think a hell of a lot more of men, then you.

[seabeyond]

317. btw... ".he is six years old". the little girl was 6 yrs old for crying out loud

and for an extended period of time she was harassed, bullied, forced against what she wanted, isolated from friends not able to play.

where the fuck is your empathy for her.

all you men on this board

i am not hearing a single damn thing about this girl

why is that? why is she so readily dismiss. for crying out loud...

does that make you a woman hater? does it make each. and every. one. of you men that have totally ignored what she endured, ..... a woman hater? no empathy. no consideration for her. no vioce for her....

a silence, when it comes to the girl. and she really is the total innocent, or victim in htis. but none of you men can take a moment to even consider her

why is that.

as a matter fact, some of you are trashing her and the mother that they dared even said anything about the bullying

for crying out loud...

[truebrit71]

318. They.Are.Fucking.Kids.

...for crying out loud.... KIDS GODDAMMIT!!!

Not everything relates to adult sexual harassment....THEY ARE KIDS!!!!

[seabeyond]

319. where the fuck did you fuckin hear me talk about fuckin ADULT sexual harassment any fuckin where....

WHERE

i am fuckin talking about teaching our children about boundaries. got it dude. fuckin boundaries. what we GIVE to our children so they can fuckin make it thru fuckin life and do not have to experience this shit cause they have a stupid ass mom that does not do her job. that girl did not deserve to be harassed. that boy did not deserve to have a parent that validated his behavior instead of drawing a fuckin line for him

wtf is YOUR fuckin problem that you do not believe in takin care of our fuckin kids....

[truebrit71]

379. What is it about their age you just don't seem to be able to grasp?

Kids will be kids, and they do goofy things as they grow and learn. You apparently want them to go through life wrapped in cotton wool immune from physical contact and inter-personal relationships being TOLD what to do rather than figuring it out for themselves...

[seabeyond]

385. kids will be kids. silly stuff. wrapped in cotton. immune to physical contact.interpersonal relation

being told what to do

hm

really

really????

kids being kids... boys being boy

goofy thinks... bullying

grow and learn.... what are they growing and learning? take away body ownership. keep mouth shut when forced to do something. do not take no.

life wrapped in cotton.... not be bullied, harassed,

immune from physical contact... not forced to endure being touched when they say no, do not touch

no interpersonal relationship... force a person to spend time with another when they do not want to

TOLD what to do... understand a kid needs direction, guidance, cause they lack in info cause they are only 6 yrs old, cor crying out loud

figuring it out themselves.... no parents give them the info they need so they can successfully navigate life

your post is literally the most absurd post i have read thru this whole to do.

your post is like a friggin satirical written piece mocking the men that defend this behavior and attack the teachers. and you do it seriously

really really interesting. i would love to put your post up as an OP stating THIS is what we are addressing and it is for real. it is not a joke.

[BainsBane]

391. If children are not taught to respect boundaries of both themselves and others

They become vulnerable to sexual abuse, notably by adults. Touching someone against their will, after being told the contact is unwarranted, is inappropriate for children or anyone else. That the boy continues to disrespect the boundaries of girls may be suggestive of something amiss in his home life. Have his own boundaries been violated so much he doesn't understand respect for the boundaries of others? Whatever the reason, he needs to learn to respect a girl's right to say no.

A parents responsibility is to guide their child through life. To leave them alone to figure it out for themselves is neglectful. It is also a good way to help your child become a target of adult sexual predators, or make them vulnerable to abuse later in life. That is why so many schools now teach good touch versus bad touch, and that children have a right to say no, don't touch me. Children are not wild animals. They are cogent human beings with learning capacity far greater than that of adults. They learn what is right and wrong each and every day. Setting limits is crucial to raising a happy, healthy child.

[truebrit71]

462. Ignore

[BainsBane]

479. Lol

God forbid someone present a cogent thought you can't counter. Put them on ignore fast before you have to think.

[redqueen]

392. Having bodily integrity is being "wrapped in cotton wool"?

No, it isn't. It's a basic human right. If, after repeated interventions, this kid still refuses to accept that no means no, that is a serious problem.

Changing 'boys will be boys' to 'kids will be kids' doesn't make your attempt to handwave away his consistent, repeated, unacceptable behavior any less noxious.

Your post reads like one of the frequent rationalizations for bullying that people used to post on DU back before we made significant progress on that issue.

[truebrit71]

463. Ignore. Plus, Arsenal suck.

[redqueen]

468. LOL

Yes, being at the top of the table is an inescapable indication of suckage.

[seabeyond]

320. you did not address a single thing i posted. YOU are making up your own argument to throw YOUR

garbage at me. it is not mine. it is YOUR creation. deal with the post i actually post. quit making up stories.

you call me names. you insult me. you make up stories. you ignore what i actually post.

fuck that trash.

[truebrit71]

464. "fuck that trash"???

Nope. But thanks for playing dearie.

Ignore.

[seabeyond]

471. anytime darlin' and i would never ignore you, the what appears to be satire is too delicious.

[xulamaude]

428. Where do you think "adult sexual harassment" behavior starts?

Did Ted Bundy just wake up at age 25 and decide he was going to start raping and murdering women?

Did my brother just wake up one day and decide he was going to ask his adult sister to have "sex' with him?

That behavior begins very, very early. My friends 4 year old grandson is already behaving in physically inappropriate ways with girls at his freaking pre-school!

They're not just kids, they are human beings who deserve respect and bodily autonomy.

FFS.

[truebrit71]

461. So this six-year old is the next Ted Bundy?

Knock it off FFS....

[xulamaude]

466. Possibly. I asked where you think

these "adult" behaviors start.

Edit: when do you think these future adult behaviors start

[KitSileya]

146. A lot of things has been called normal,

That today we condemn, or at least consider problematic.


Boys repeatedly kissing girls against their will may have been usual, and is apparently still considered normal by a segment of DUets, but this school is clearly telling this boy and his mom that it is not ok. The girl's feelings are being validated, and she and her classmates are being taught that they have the right to decide who kisses them. I call that progress.

[Vashta Nerada]

154. He's a six year old sexual deviant!

I agree with you, btw. He's only six freaking years old. He doesn't know what sexual harassment is.

[seabeyond]

168. "He's a six year old sexual deviant!" one poster besides you running around saying shit like this.

one

[Vashta Nerada]

183. He is...

according to you and your ilk.

[seabeyond]

190. one post where i called the kid a sexual predator. one. one post where i blame the kid for his

behavior. one post where i did not put all the onus on the mom. one.

you fail

again

[Vashta Nerada]

192. I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.

Until the holidays are over.

Or until the end of the week.

Whatever.

[seabeyond]

197. yea

[BainsBane]

290. get over it.

What do you care anyway?

[NYC_SKP]

292. I sat on a jury for this....

...POS this morning.

It didn't come out as it should have.

If I had a ban hammer....

[BainsBane]

294. I never noticed him before the rape porn threads

He seems awfully engaged in personal infighting for someone here just a few months.

[pintobean]

302. Now, that's funny.

[seabeyond]

303. 40 posts, i asked.... who are you? nt

[Puglover]

356. You mean like this poster?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024166149#post299

Your logic seems a bit selective.

Seems to me you made quite the splash the second you joined DU.

So what exactly are you implying?

[BainsBane]

360. No, not like that poster

From what I have observed, that poster talks about ideas and issues, which is supposed to the point of a message board, is it not?

[Puglover]

362. Of course!

LOL

[BainsBane]

365. Yes, I can see why you find that so objectionable

Equal rights is so 20th century.

[Puglover]

368. And add

ESP to your many other talents!

[pintobean]

377. Indeed

[Go Vols]

336. I voted hide,wtf is up with this person?

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
At Fri Dec 13, 2013, 12:39 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

He is...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4167453

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Your ilk. broadbrushing and imposing guilt by association rather than bothering to ask someone what they actually think.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 13, 2013, 12:52 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Vashta Nerada]

338. Awww.

You mad, bro?

[Go Vols]

339. I seldom get mad

What good does it do?I mostly deal in right and wrong.

Edit: I wont bump this again for you to continue your misguided rant on children.

[Vashta Nerada]

340. The world isn't black and white.

It's best to remember that.

[BainsBane]

366. As Skinner recently noted in ATA

Anyone is free to PM him privately with concerns.

[MattBaggins]

247. But he can be taught.

You however, apparently not so much.

[geek tragedy]

200. boys will be boys, after all. And when he's taught that this is okay, why

not cop a feel when he's 10, and if a girl leads him on at 13, well he's just being a boy and doing what boys do.

Not like the girl counts here--the boy is the only one worth protecting.

[MattBaggins]

246. How were you brought up that you view kissing a girl

that has asked you to stop, as normal behavior?

[Decaffeinated]

287. Yes that must be it...

All of us Neanderthals just go around grabbing ass and kissing random women all day well into adulthood.


Thank god for your enlightened souls bringing light to the ignorant masses.

[Katashi_itto]

149. Sad tidings to those here in the 16th century. Charges hath been dropped.

Tis, a pity too. I was awaiting cries of "Stone him, stone him anone to rally forth, as would be proper"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4166578

[seabeyond]

150. charges where never made. but fuck the truth, reality or fact. right?

[Katashi_itto]

153. Nobly said, and with thy usual eloquence.

however suspension from schooling, is a charge is it not?

[seabeyond]

155. it is a punishment when talking failed, time out failed, in school suspension failed, out of school

suspension is the next step. you have a problem with that.

and no.... a suspension is not a charged. that is absurd and ridiculous stretch to make you first non truth a truth.

again, this mentality is a fail for this boy. why do you not want this boy to be able to successfully navigate social behavior thru boundaries so he can be successfully in life. why are you promoting failure for this boy?

[gollygee]

157. No it is not a charge

Charges are presented in court and you know that. The label of "sexual" was taken off the note in his file, which I find appropriate, but there was no discussion of charges. Also, he was still suspended, so you couldn't have been talking about that when you said "charges were dropped."

[Katashi_itto]

160. I leave it to you oh so jolly lot to spilt hairs.

[gollygee]

162. It isn't splitting hairs

I keep seeing stupid stuff written like he's been charged as a sexual predator and shit like that. That hasn't happened.

[seabeyond]

163. split hairs? truth. lie. reality. illusion. split hairs? lol. going to jail. not.

a criminal record. not.

fuckin funny

back pedal dude at the absurdity

[Katashi_itto]

170. I leave the theater of the absurd to you.

He was charged with sexual harassment by the school

School drops sexual harassment claim against 6-year-old

(CNN) -- Amid a tidal wave of negative publicity, a Colorado school system has let a 6-year-old boy return to school and said it won't classify his kissing a girl on the hand as sexual harassment.


The story of first-grader Hunter Yelton made national news and spurred outrage this week after word spread that his school near Colorado Springs suspended him for the kiss and accused him of sexually harassing the girl.

On Wednesday night, CNN affiliate KRDO reported that Canon City Schools Superintendent Robin Gooldy met with Hunter's parents. The superintendent then changed Hunter's disciplinary offense from "sexual harassment" to "misconduct."

The boy has also returned to school.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/12/us/six-year-old-kissing-girl-suspension/

[seabeyond]

171. oh my god, how you have to fit that square peg into your round hole. lmao. what you will find,

is that i am consistently on the boys side. not so much you and the other men.

[xulamaude]

242. Another win

for the 'non-existent' patriarchy!

Woot.

[BainsBane]

327. How is that inappropriate?

You think he should get a medal for repeatedly violating girls' personal boundaries? God forbid he be taught that everyone has a right to decide if someone can touch them or not, even girls. Why interfere with such sterling behavior and brainwash him into thinking he should seek consent? That's just so 16th century. banghead:

[Vashta Nerada]

156. Way to perpetuate the rape culture, Canon City Schools.

[seabeyond]

159. you do this little boy no good, with this attitude. you only set him up for failure. why?

[Vashta Nerada]

164. Whatever happened to this:

again. i walked dec 1. du is hostile to women and i prefer to enjoy my holiday season without the constant attack on women. i was getting messages there was an issue. i am putting out my feeling on the acceptance of the ATA question you answered the other day. and now, i will take my break from du

happy holidays to all....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594290

[seabeyond]

165. nuthin' you have nuthin'.

[NuclearDem]

167. Cheap shot.

[seabeyond]

169. that is all he has. yet to have one post of substance. no reality in his running around with hair

on fire. nothing, but to go beyond discussion to the absurd. a knat continually buzzing around with no substance at all. like he is going to be taken seriously. i do not think he even cares to be taken seriously. just going around trying to stir shit.

[Vashta Nerada]

173. Sounds familiar.

[seabeyond]

177. it should sound familiar as i have watched a number of your posts being simply immature failures

at stirring shit

[Katashi_itto]

185. Project much?

[seabeyond]

193. actually talking about child development, parenting, responsibility of school, and us as a

society as a whole is running around with hair on fire?

you are so bad at this insulting thing. so obviously a fail

[Katashi_itto]

196. Yup. I'm terrible. Thats why you respond to my every post

[seabeyond]

198. ya. lol. every. single. one. what, you have only posted 4 or 5 posts in months, years????

geez. can you not be at least a little closer to truth. lordy.

still did not address what i posted and your backpedaling. or the previous backpedaling. or the previous.

[Puglover]

359. +1

Last edited Fri Dec 13, 2013, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

Edit out +1 trillion in keeping with the Holiday spirit. It was a bit excessive.

[seabeyond]

371. really? one in a trillion? not a 100, not a million, but trillion? the post you refer to

is a post where i state that there is no substance in posts. and the poster is suggesting that i am really referring to myself (no substance in my posts, hence project much?) you agree. so you are stating that i lack substance. that i am just going around insulting people.

well, once again, here is a little substance in a post. me addressing the issue. me not simply insulting and walking away. like your +1 trillion.

please state how i lack substance in my posts as i spent a good deal of time, thru out the threads telling the uninformed about the facts of this case. talking about child development. talking about parenting. talking about our society and culture.

please tell me how that lacks substance. since you agree my posts lack substance.

and please tell me how this post, this very post i took the time typing out to you, addressing your suggestion that i lack substance, lacks substance.

i excitedly wait for you substance filled, thought provoking answer.

[Puglover]

374. Golly Sea.

I can't begin to tell you how much I am not inclined to spar with you.

Have a very Happy Holiday with your family.

And since it IS the Holiday season, I'll take back my +1 trillion and make it a measly +1.

To be completely honest it auto filled and I just left it. So fair is fair.

[seabeyond]

376. ah. so accusing a person of lacking substance is cool. backing it up, not so much. challenging an

accusation, meh. reduces it to sparing, instead of merely asking and answering.

k

actually, i expected much less.

and

thank you. happy holidays to you also

[MattBaggins]

250. Where are the three billy goats when you need them

[JTFrog]

381. Probably changing their socks. n/t

[geek tragedy]

181. No, it's you "boys will be boys so let them assault girls" types who are in the 16th century.

Thank you for showing that rape culture advocates thrive here at DU though.

It allows us to view future posts of yours where you pretend to be concerned about the rights of women and girls with the appropriate skepticism.

Do you live in Steubenville?

[MattBaggins]

248. Should children be taught about inappropriate behavior?

Despite you melodramatic rending of the clothes, that is all that was done here. A boy was properly punished and his mother didn't like it and lied about what happened.

But carry on with your approach if you like.

[BainsBane]

293. Because in the 21st century, obtaining consent before touching another person

Just isn't necessary. Only prudes think females have a right to decide what to do with their bodies. Modern folk know that males don't need to worry about whether a girl actually wants him to kiss/touch/or have sex with her. In the 21st century, females exist as mere objects for men to do with as they like. That's your version of progress.

Actually criminalizing childhood is a post-modern development, particularly prevalent in this country's pathological legal system. But as long as girls don't get to have a say in who touches them, that's what really counts. That's a tradition that's followed through adulthood and well into maturity, since only 3% of rapists are ever punished for their crimes. But in the modern world, consent just doesn't matter. Only Elizabethans care about such trivialities. Truly modern folk don't worry about consent because they know that's the only way a loser can get near a woman.

[lumberjack_jeff]

436. Verily. Oh well, I'm sure there are other witches to burn.

But none such tasty morsels as 6 year old boys.

[xulamaude]

439. Come on Jeff, really? Witches eating boys?

That is NOT funny.

(and, yeah, I "get it&quot

[seabeyond]

440. boundaries are good, arent they lumberjack> nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

470. This stopped being about the kid in question a day or so ago.

It's now just a big Rorschach test.

[seabeyond]

472. ah. when there was a made up story by mom, there was a boundary discussion? cause the moms story

clearly painted there were no boundary issues.

now that we hear the story of what happened, where there is now boundary issues, then it is no longer about boundary.

my head spinzzz

[lumberjack_jeff]

473. There are two moms and two stories.

The child whose mom was not a schoolteacher was branded by the other mom's co-workers as a sexual harasser.

That shit happens all the time, but it's a galaxy far away. It's kind of academic and appears to be sorting itself out.

Here at home in DU however, in this very thread, are people describing the boy as a "persistent molester" because apparently even "sexual harasser" doesn't adequately convey the appropriate degree of hate and contempt for 6 year old boys.

This is why we have and continue to need a men's group.

[seabeyond]

475. i guess you are totally overlooking the many men that professed it is boys being boys,

leave them alone, the girl can fight her own battle, victim blaming... to the ONE poster that said "persistent molester". the kids was not BRANDED a sexual molester. the wording went into a report, as you well know, that does not brand nor follow the kid. and it was the MOM that gave the kid sexual harrassment. oh... good move mom. wtf???

and the strong majority of people you feel are comdemning the boy have clearly put the onus on the mother and her not doing the job of parenting to where she discusses boundaries with her son, protecting him from this kind of what... staking the witch to burn.... event.

ok.

i understand your position. instead of teaching the boys how to navigate life, we would rather create them as victims and vilify the victim (not that you are vilifying the victim, you have not mentioned her).

[lumberjack_jeff]

476. It may very well be boys being boys. Being a boy is not a sickness.

The story you choose to take as gospel is from the teacher mom and her co-workers. Let's set that aside for the moment. Even assuming the worst account of events possible, and multiplying them by two STILL doesn't justify "sexual harasser" for a 6 year old.

You have boys. How many times have you used the phrase "keep your hands to yourself"? More than once?

The poster upthread who said "persistent molester" is accompanied by dozens who are using equally sick rhetoric. It's Freudian. There are a bunch of really damaged and broken posters here, and they are given a pass so long as the target of their hate is white and male. I used to think that there was an age below which boys would be given some slack, but it's now becoming obvious that this isn't the case.

[seabeyond]

477. so. when i read warren saying there were emotionally damaged... you are talking about duers. this

is your new meme for women that speak out against sexism. we are "damaged".

beyond fuckin sick. so fuckin tired of this garbage. you get all over it cause a boy stepped over the line and he was called out. i have been told by i do not know how many asshole that i am a "man hater" adn now here you are, and warren calling us fuckin DAMAGED

fuck that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

483. Yes. I'm sticking up for this boy.

He doesn't deserve the bullshit that the school administration and their not-well-meaning supporters have dumped on him.

[joeybee12]

152. When a parent rushes to the media and compalins about how her child can do no wrong...

In this case, the mother of the boy, why does anyone take that as gospel truth? Come on, it was clear there was more involved that just that side of the story, but lots of people here piled on...shame on you!

[TBF]

166. It's a difficult case but I'm glad you posted this --

It's way too often that we hear "boys will be boys" and "that's cute" etc ...

But I also hear loud & clear that this is a young child so why stigmatize.

The answer is that both sides are correct. While the child needs to hear "this is unacceptable" I hope that he is able to have some counseling to better understand boundaries about touching. I wouldn't want him labeled as anything at this age. But at the same time the behavior must stop. Even at 5 or 6 a child can understand when they are told not to do something.

I have both a daughter and a son. When my son was in kindergarten his best friend got reprimanded for hugging and kissing him at school. They are good friends and his mom called to apologize which I felt was unnecessary. These two boys are just very good friends so they are affectionate. But the other boy didn't have to be told twice either - he didn't do that again at school.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience for him and not hurt either child long term.

[Nine]

178. What would the reaction have been if the boy had been planting unwanted kisses on another boy?

I haven't been following this at all until now but it reminds me of a similar brouhaha years - perhaps decades - ago that followed a similar pattern. A little boy kissed a little girl and I'm pretty certain this was an ongoing pattern. The little boy got a suspension or something. The right wing cried about political correctness gone wild. One writer made the point above - would they all be just as outraged if the little boy had been planting unwanted kisses on another little boy? I feel quite certain the response would have been very different.

Anyway, I'm glad the little girl in this story got to have two blissful days of going to school without the stress of this.

[Vinnie From Indy]

203. It is interesting that those that keep repeating incessantly

that this is a failure of the boy's parents to teach their son how to act. I would offer that this is exactly the time to teach their son how to behave. We teach our children when they are children how to act. This young soul has only had six years on this planet and anyone that wants to hang a sexual harasser label on the kid should be ashamed of themselves and go pound sand. For if we take that position seriously, we must throw off all age limitations for passing judgment. Why not three year olds or two year olds or even babies touching each other in their shared crib.

[seabeyond]

204. no one is hanging anything on the kid. and those saying it is the parents failure, are the ones

stating this is the age both in school and in the home, we teach our children the boundaries they need to be successful in life. since we seem to agree on that very basic premise, i fail to see how the first sentence going after the people talking about the fail, are the problem.

it is like the people you agree with, you do not like so had to find a way to diss them. even though we stand together.

[geek tragedy]

216. the parents aren't teaching him--they're going on television saying what he did was just fine. nt

[RedCloud]

205. Somebody has some sharp helicopter blades.

Hyperbole much?

[duffyduff]

228. Helicopter parents are one of the scourges in education.

I would bet mommy threatened a lawsuit. BTW, why is SHE coming forward and subjecting her own daughter to ridicule by going public?

Not smart at all.

[MattBaggins]

253. Why would a girl be subjected to ridicule

for not wanting to be forced to accept kissing she did not want; and then have someone else lie and say "she wanted it"? She wanted it? Does that sound familiar to you?

Blame and shame the victim? Really?

[seabeyond]

254. um. the sons mom was on news last night saying she was a GF and wanted it. teachers, school cant

say anything. i imagine the mother of the daughter did not like the fact the other mother lied about the situation. why do you not have an issue with the mother that reinforced the sons behavior and lied? why is a mom that addressed her daughter being bullied in school, and talked to her daughter (you know what parents do) about how to avoid unwanted kisses the bad parent? topsy turvey. for sure.

[whatchamacallit]

222. I'm certain this has been asked but

if it were a 6 year old girl kissing a boy, would terms like 'sexual harassment' be in the discussion? Just wondering...

[KitSileya]

224. yes, it would be.

Their gender doesn't matter, the unwanted touching and kissing, the repeated unwanted touching and kissing, despite verbal warnings and an in-school suspension, is what matters. It matters that his mother doesn't think he did anything wrong with the kissing - she's ok with him being punished for the roughhousing he is also in trouble for doing, but apparently the girl "wanted it" and she's his "girlfriend", according to his mother. According to HER mother, the girl has had to be taught how to deal with unwanted touching, and her classmates reported the boy's behavior to their teacher because they felt it was wrong. Considering that he was also stopping the girl from playing with her classmates because he wants her all to himself, that isn't surprising.

If it had been a girl doing this to a boy, I would want the school to react in the exact same way. The only difference on DU, I'd bet, is that those that are decrying the innocence of his actions would be lauding the boy being harassed for getting a girlfriend and contemplating how lucky they would have felt in the same situation. It's what they say about 11-year old rape victims when they are male, after all.

It seems to surprise people on DU that feminists think that women can be sexual harassers too. The big difference is that we do not think that sexual harassment by women can turn our entire society into a hostile place for men until a profound power shift happens that changes the power differential between the sexes. For women, who are victims of rape and sexual harassment at far greater rates than men, this view of boys just being boys when they violate girls' bodily autonomy is just the first small stepping stone that teaches this boy and his ilk that they have the right to women's attention, time, regard, bodies - without any consideration of the women in question. Women who are harassed on the street, when they go out, at bars and work and sports arenas know that this case wasn't remarkable just because the boy's behavior was punished, it was remarkable because the girl's autonomy was supported by the school. Her feelings counted. And I hope to goodness that they would do the same to any boy that experiences the same from anyone. But as the mother of the boy shows - it is very ingrained in our culture that one kid forcing another kid to kiss or touch is cute rather than behavior to be curbed.

[MattBaggins]

257. Facepalm

sometimes all you can do is facepalm

[duffyduff]

227. So the mother was there and she is telling the truth. You know this, right?

Actually, you don't. This is not a "feminist" issue or a "men's rights issue" or any other such political issue.

I would be willing to bet mommy here threatened a lawsuit, and administrators, being the total morons they are, capitulated.

There are LOTS of sue-happy parents in this society, unfortunately. Got news for mommy, too, and that is boundary issues are the rule, not the exception, in schools.

If it had been up to me, I'd have fired those idiot administrators. They opened their district, the families, and the kids up to international ridicule.

[KitSileya]

229. Which mother are you talking of?

I sincerely doubt the mother of the girl threatened a lawsuit.

[MattBaggins]

258. Which mother?

[seabeyond]

259. no. it is not a feminist issue. it is a parental issue. thank you for taking it away from a

feminist issue. that has been very frustrating.

I would be willing to bet mommy here threatened a lawsuit, and administrators, being the total morons they are, capitulated.

first you suggest no one knows. then you throw out a guess. hmmmm.

[mercuryblues]

446. What standing would the

mother of the girl have for a lawsuit. The school did take action, they did not ignore this.

The one that opened the district up for ridicule is the boys parent. She is the one that went running to fox news.

I am more apt to believe the parent of the child that worked with the school, instructed her child on how to avoid the harassment, did not run to the news, and her child was not disciplined at least 3 times for this behavior.

than the parent of a child who has been disciplined for doing the same thing at least 3 times, whose kid has also been in trouble for "roughhousing" as she calls it and runs to the news and holds up her child as the victim. Instead of trying to teach her kid that violating another's personal space is not OK.

Instead what she has shown her kid is that it is ok to kiss people, even when they tell you NO. over and over again. She also taught him by her actions, if you don't like something lie about it and scream unfair. Bully your way through life.

[Pisces]

231. I guess when the shoe is on the other foot in a couple of years when her daughter is chasing down

boys, let's see how she feels about this stupid rule.

She could have met with this boys parents, she could have spoke to him directly. She could have advised her daughter to scream at the top of her lungs, or to slug in the kisser.

She feels that a child should be labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life?? I don't understand this type of person that can't
resolve problems by confronting them directly.

Grow up lady!!

[JI7]

241. if her daughter is kissing , touching guys who told her to stop she should be punished also

and the boy was not labeled a sex offender for life.

and they did tell the boy to stop and he refused to. not just once but more times and he kept doing it. and the mother of the boy lied and said the girl wanted it.

[Pisces]

252. He's 6 !!! My god do you people not have children??? I tell my kids not to do lots of things they

still do.. What is wrong with our society that we want 6 yr olds to act like adults??? I didn't read anywhere that the girls mom talked to the boys parents??

And, no, when the shoe is on the other foot the little girl will not deserve to be punished in this manner. She will deserve to be talked to and have her parents deal with her. Will she deserve to be labeled a sex offender, I don't think so.

My kindergarden girl had a boy kiss her and it was on the cheek ( I guess we should have sent him to jail) Crazy.

[JI7]

260. it's not normal to continue to touch another person when told to stop, and now you are blaming

the girl and her mother ?

girls/women have a right over their own selves and not to be felt up, kissed , controlled by others.

it is not normal. it was not normal when i was 6 and it's not normal for any 6 year olds i knew/know.

[Pisces]

274. He kissed her had for gods sake!! Kids like to bother people that makes them do annoying shit

over and over again. If his parents were never informed how could they modify his behavior or impress upon him
how inappropriate his behavior was?? We want to teach our kids not to communicate when there is a problem but
to escalate to the authorities?? Labeling a 6 yr old a sex offender???

Don't put your baggage on 6 yr olds. These are not adults and cannot be expected to act like adults. The intentions were not the same as an adult male trying to harass an adult female.

When I was a kid we chased boys and kissed them. Wow, I guess I should be in jail.

[JI7]

275. it's been said many times that there were no legal authorities involved in this, he was not legally

charged with anything. this was the school that put a note of what he did on their own records.

the parent was informed and the mother is encouraging hte boy to continue to go after those who don't like it.

and this boy was not put in jail.

[seabeyond]

283. repeatedly... the parents were told. the kids talked to. then time out and told. then inschool

detention and parents told. then suspension. why is this so hard for you and others to follow. the parents were involved step by step. at the point of the kid getting suspended a couple days, the mother went on fox, lied, said the girl wanted it.

now.... how is that anyones fault but the mother.

[MattBaggins]

264. Six year olds can easily understand they may not touch and kiss others if it is unwanted

What world do you people come from that you think kids can't be taught to keep their hands off of others?

The girls mother was under no obligation to talk to the boys parents. none. nada

[Pisces]

271. That is ridiculous. Of course he can be taught not to kiss her. If the parents are never informed

how can they know their is a problem and that they have to give him more specific lessons?? I think there
is some parental obligation as a community to try and resolve problems before alerting the authorities and
having the kid labeled a sex offender??

[JI7]

276. the parent was informed and there were no authorities alerted in this case

[seabeyond]

284. the parent was repeatedly told about the issue. she said he is an energitic boy, bf, gf and the

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:11 PM - Edit history (1)

girl wanted it.

[Mariana]

291. Funny how so many people feel the need to LIE about this story.

I wonder why they feel it's necessary to spread all these LIES about what happened? Pretending the boy was reported to authorities and charged and labeled a sex offender for life and all that bullshit that NEVER HAPPENED. Jesus, they're acting just like the fucking teabaggers, making shit up to be pissed off about.

[seabeyond]

296. yes. there certainly is the strong push to fabricate this story. i assumed it was cause so many

anti school, anti teacher. i am not really believing that is the reason any more.

[redqueen]

444. Yep, outright lying or just playing stupid, all in an effort to spin, spin, spin. nt

[seabeyond]

261. no one labeled him a sex offender. but i certainly see where blame the victim comes in, from the

very beginning. the girl did nothing. she is not the one that has to "learn" the behaviors to not be bullied in a school. you attack the people that did nothing, and excused the people tht are responsible. truly amazing.

[MattBaggins]

263. How in the hell do you know she did any of that?

Really? He will not be labelled a sex offender for the rest of his life. That is such nonsense.

Perhaps she simply called the school and told them her daughter was upset about what the boys had done? She should have told her daughter to punch the boys rather than tell the teachers?

Do you have kids?


Wow... Blaming and shaming the victim even in grade school?

And people laugh at the concept of rape culture?

[Pisces]

277. Are you playing at ignorance? No one is blaming or shaming. The adults need to learn how to handle

these situations better. What in the hell is a 6 yr. old going to learn by having a deviant record??

His parents needed to be informed in order to change the kids behavior. If you had a 6 yr old boy you would know that
they love to be annoying. Doing something over and over again is how they get attention.

[seabeyond]

285. just did not have that issue with my two boys. firstly. secondly, third time. the parent was

repeatedly told. the kid was repeatedly told. the punishment escalated to the point of suspension. the mom got pissed, went to fox news and lied....

and people on the board bought it cause it is so much more fun to be all hard ass on a school, then actually know what happened.

[MattBaggins]

286. The boy was told repeatedly

It must go on his record now for proper tracking if he displays such behavior again and further intervention is required.

[MattBaggins]

289. And properly punishing them for it is appropriate

The adults in this school were handling the situation appropriately.

[tblue37]

322. His mother WAS TOLD MORE THAN ONCE, and the boy WAS

told more than once, and the boy was punished more mildly at first, BUT HE CONTINUED HARASSING THE GIRL.

The boy's mother still insists that the girl (who WAS VERY MUCH UPSET BY HIS CONSTANT HARASSMENT) is his "girlfriend" (apparently THE LITTLE GIRL ha s no say in the matter at all) and that she "likes" it when he sneaks up on her and kisses her all the time. (Again, she doesn't get to decide whether or not she likes it. The boy's mother and the boy get to decide that for her.)

NO "permanent record" is involved. No "authorities" were involved. The notation of his behavior was in his private record for THAT SCHOOL DISTRICT ONLY, which would never be seen by anyone else anywhere else at any time.

The point of the notation was to distinguish his harassment of the girl from the sort of physical bullying he did to other kids. Also, if a pattern of similar harassment continues in his behavior, it is important for future teachers and administrators IN THAT SCHOOL to be aware that it is a pattern, not just a one off mistake. When such patterns are not noticed, they cannot be properly addressed.

The details of this situation are pertinent, and they are NOT what your posts say they are.

Again: THE BBOY'S MOTHER WAS SPOKEN TO MORE THAN ONCE, AND SO WAS THE BOY. The harassment of the little girl continued despite several attempts by the school to address it in less severe ways.

BTW, I have to use caps on my little Nook because using other forms of emphasis on this device is very difficult.

[Deep13]

333. agreed, she was harassed but repeated assault...

...and the boy's mother was encouraging it.

[Pisces]

378. I have read up on the matter more and I do acknowledge that he was reprimanded more than once. What

I don't understand is the lack of communication between the parents. I have young children, confronting or discussing my
concerns with the other mother should have been done. That other mother would have known that under no circumstances were these kisses welcomed and that I was looking at her to correct this behavior. Only a parent talking to another
parent can give the right amount concern. The school may have sent home a notice, but not had a serious conversation.
Schools do not like to offend anyone.

I also think that we put adult labels on children and adult intentions onto children. This kid needs to be reprimanded and
talked to by his parents. As a society we expect our children to behave and rationalize like adults. They are barely learning the consequences of their actions at that age. Do we want to have robots?

When I was kid chasing boys and kissing them was game played a recess regularly. Many of those boys did not want
to be kissed. There is nothing new under the sun. That was over 30 yrs. ago.

The other thing I find abhorrent on this thread is telling parents that they support a rape culture simply because we
question adult words used against a 6 yr old. At times it feels like all common sense goes out the window.

[duffyduff]

262. The mother, Jade Masters-Ownbey, had better keep her mouth shut.

I am not kidding on this. She is digging her professional grave the more she spews.

Masters-Ownbey is a math teacher in the same district. Who knows if she has "connections" in the district and therefore more "pull" than some parent who has no connections? Sounds to me like she is playing some office politics and throwing her weight around. Not smart at all because she can be easily railroaded out, regardless if she has a continuing contract. By complaining on behalf of her daughter, she has helped create a ton of embarrassment for administration. By going public she has made the situation little more than a pissing contest, and she will likely be the loser. That is a professional death warrant in public education.

Some of the diciest situations in schools involve parents who happened to be teachers in the same school district as their kids.

[MattBaggins]

266. Un fucking beleivable

This post may get hid but a big hearty FU.

You are exactly the type of mentality that caused Stuebenville. The victims mother should shut up?

She should shut up?

un fucking believable.

Again.... here folks is the god damn rape culture mentality every one says doesn't exist.

Women should shut the fuck up or "things could get bad for them". Un fucking believable.

[In_The_Wind]

474. At Fri Dec 13, 2013, 01:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

3:58 PM
Automated Message

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Fri Dec 13, 2013, 01:41 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Un fucking beleivable
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4169963

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Seriously? This is far and above.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 13, 2013, 01:58 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

[seabeyond]

268. wow. really, lets just dig out our pitch forks and torches and run her out of town.

that is what we do to the victims.... right?

[LeftyMom]

306. What that poster really thinks victims should do is shut up and get victimized again.

That's why she lost her teaching job.

http://www.ktvn.com/global/story.asp?s=8980999

Here's her blog where she makes identical comments to her comments on this thread, in case anybody's unsure that it's her. http://snunes.blogspot.com/2013/12/school-district-administrators-botched.html She was banned from DU for the same victim blaming behavior under her previous account, "tonysam".

[seabeyond]

313. ahhh. i knew there some anger there. i read from above the info. no, people are not making it

about sexual harassment, that would be the side that dismisses the boys behavior. we are talking about boundaries. you know. every one of my zillion posts i have made. repeatedly talking boundaries.

that is not for you lefty. that was in reply to the blog.

thank you for the info.

i am sorry she went thru that, and is so angry. but.... i cannot condone victim blaming. you are right. it made better sense.

[idwiyo]

387. That's disgusting.

[NuclearDem]

353. Telling a victim's family to shut up?

Stay classy, duffyduff.

[idwiyo]

400. Why are you posting personal information and filthy insinuations about girl's mother on DU?

Your post is disgusting victim shaming and blaming.

[duffyduff]

279. Jade needs to shut up if she cares about her career.

I will say it because I know how it is in schools. Jade may be in the right or she may be in the wrong, but she embarrassed administration and the school district when this thing went all over the world. She has subjected that little boy to lifelong humiliation since nothing on the internet can ever be undone. She may have connections in the district and arrogantly thinks that because she may have "tenure," she can't be fired. She may learn the hard way like I and thousands of others who may have done right or done nothing wrong but have offended administrators or put their asses on the line and find out she has NO career left. She has no sense at all. If she gets railroaded out--she doesn't even have to be "fired" to be pushed out of there--this story is all over the world. Who the hell would hire her for anything? She would be seen as nothing but a troublemaker.

Jade has no sense whatsoever, and it's clouded by a false sense of "security" which is all too common among teachers.

[xulamaude]

308. Just straight up saying a woman should "shut up"

if she knows what's good for her...

Please.

[LeftyMom]

309. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[Squinch]

301. Kitsileya, I think you have unwittingly created the

trollapalooza thread of the week.

They are coming out of the woodwork to tell you that a bad word choice in a kindergarten somewhere in the Midwest = "feminists want to kill a 6 year old."

And the beat goes on...

But I am glad you posted this side of the story.

[Jackpine Radical]

304. Given the ages of the participants, forget the sexual part. It's just harrassment. Bullying.

The little boy found something that really bothered the little girl & kept doing it. It's serious, the little shit boy should be given a mental health assessment. Where's he getting this crap? Why does he keep doing it? There's really something wrong here.

Punishment may or may not be warranted. Psychotherapy almost certainly is. And no doubt for the victim too, just to see she's OK and hasn't been seriously harmed by the whole thing.

[RandySF]

311. Yeah, in full context it's pretty bad.

[LittleBlue]

334. I cannot believe the term "rape culture" is even in this thread

6-years-old and we're using the term "rape culture". Like, for real, there are people saying this and they are serious. Holy shit.



/trash thread

[seabeyond]

335. as far as using that term in this thread, it is not about the 6 yr old. it would be the grown men

on du that ignore the girl, say it boys are boys and he should not have been punished and attack the girl adn attack the mother, blame the school and teachers and feminist for the boys behavior. that would be the rape culture. you might want to look at the heavy duty victim blaming in the thread. that would be the rape culture.

nothing about the rape culture has to do with a 6 yr old boy

everything to do with the rape culture has to do with mens reply in this thread.

[LittleBlue]

337. But this doesn't have anything to do with rape

You can blame overzealous school administrators or criticize the mothers and it still has squat to do with rape. No rape has occurred and no rape is physically possible at that age. Therefore, how could this be rape culture?

[KitSileya]

342. You really need to learn the definition of rape culture.

Rape culture isn't that everyone is raped, or is a rapist.

A rape culture is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm.

In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable as death or taxes. This violence, however, is neither biologically nor divinely ordained. Much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change.
Transforming a Rape Culture by Emilie Buchwald, Martha Roth, Pamela R. Fletcher

This little boy isn't a rapist, but we live in a culture where that little girl (and all the little girls in her class) has learned that the news, the adults in her society, people talking on the street think it was unfair to punish him for harassing her. The boys in his class has learned that the school, while it punishes bad behavior, is yet willing to back down somewhat because the society they live in thinks it is ok for boys to repeatedly kiss an unwilling girl and stop her from playing with others. The girls and boys that weren't harassed and didn't harass have still learnt a lesson, and it is the same lessons girls and boys at Steubenville et. al. have learned, albeit in a much milder form. It is the lesson that is reinforced every time a girl is harassed on the streets, it is the same lesson taught when women are asked to smile by random strangers, it is the same lesson taught when women are told that they cannot refuse to respond to being hit on by a stranger on the bus, but at the same time blamed and shamed if that same stranger ends up raping them.

Do you think these attitudes spring up like Venus from the sea the moment teenagers turn 16? No, they learn it much, much earlier, from incidents like these where adults think it is cute and normal for a boy to refuse to stop kissing someone.

[LittleBlue]

343. Nothing about this was sexual

The boy is 6, there is no sexual aggression. Absolute fiction. Why do you think the school removed the accusation of "sexual" harassment? Because once the light was shone on this nonsense and the world saw how ridiculous it was, they could only do a 180 or look like total morons.

You could argue bullying, but this has absolutely nothing to do with rape or rape culture.

[KitSileya]

344. It was kissing, and the boy's mother referred to them as boyfriend and girlfriend.

What do you think the boy would have learned if it hadn't been addressed, except for the fact that if he considered a girl his girlfriend, he could kiss her whenever, without consent?

The school's regulation states that sexual harassment is repeated unwanted touching. His behavior fits the label. They labelled it as such in their files, which are confidential. He also has notes about other unwanted behavior, so I suspect that when they wrote this up, they also wanted to distinguish between the two different behaviors. When the mother of the boy took it to the media, what choice did they but to alter their records? It was the only way to mitigate what the mother did, plastering the media and the internet with her son's name and sexual harassment.

As for rape and rape culture, as I said, at 6 years old, this boy thought it was ok to repeatedly kiss a girl who did not consent. His mother was encouraging him to do so, labelled the girl his girlfriend when she wasn't, said that she wanted it. You seem to think that only rape counts, but what the fundamental issue here is, is the belief that the girl doesn't have a say in who kisses her. That she should just accept it, especially because the boy professed a crush on her. What do you think boys who are encouraged to disregard a girl's bodily autonomy at 6 do when they turn 16 and do have sexual thoughts? If they don't learn any different, we end up with a society, a culture, where 35% of men say they would rape someone if they could be sure they wouldn't be caught, and where one in 6 women are sexually assaulted at least once in their lifetimes.

[seabeyond]

346. there was aggression, can we agree. and there was kissing. to suggest it does not tie in is lame.

they took out the sexual harassment because of pressure. you know it, i know it. to pretend, and this is what you are demanding, that this was not a sexual aggression is wrong. it is an illusion. and you and others are demanding that we live in this illusion also. that would be part of the rape culture. aggression. against will. and kissing was the weapon used to control. it was not cute. it was not sweet. it was not a misunderstanding by the little boy. he knew what he had been doing.

6, ya. and 6 yr olds arent stupid,. they do not get it all, but they are not stupid either.

rape is not about sex. right? it is about power and control and what is used as the weapon, is sex.

i honestly do not know if you guys really do not get it. or if it is to wear us women down.

the mother was told she had better shut up. the girl was told, while she was being put upon, that she did not have a right to speak up

tell me what you think that teaches that girl?

while she is being kissed that all you insist has nothing to do with sex.

the girl is being kissed. she is saying stop. adults are telling her it is cute. that it has to continue. that she has to continued to be controlled, kissed by this boy

what is the girl learning.

i am simplifying it to you the best i can

what does the girl learn?

[NuclearDem]

347. Rape culture isn't just the action between two people (rape, assault, or violating boundaries).

It's the cultural reaction to and acceptance of this behavior. I've recently started to think of referring to as rape-enabling culture, because the old name confuses a lot of people.

When we talk about RC in the context of this story, only a little bit of it has to do with the six year old. No, there wasn't any sexual or nefarious intent on the child's part, but the issue with boundaries being violated is a root cause of RC. The rest (and majority) of the discussion is about the reaction to this incident from other people; labeling this as "innocent", "cute", or "just what kids are supposed to do" in lieu of pressuring the parents and school to cut this behavior is the worst aspect of RC.

Tl;dr: Rape culture isn't just about the act of rape, it's how culture devalues boundaries, women, and men through perpetuated attitudes about gender roles.

[Vashta Nerada]

351. You're fighting a losing battle.

Whatever sense you make, you're always going to be wrong, in their eyes.

[CTyankee]

363. Prevention of harassment of others is the key. I don't get your point.

"Unwanted touching" is what is at issue here. THAT is not "absolute fiction." Limits and boundaries must be taught so the message gets through. Why not stop it before it escalates. If you don't, he'll just keep doing it and down the line we won't see good results, will we?

[BainsBane]

370. He clearly has an issue respecting personal boundaries

Whether its sexual really isn't the issue. What I wonder is why he doesn't understand how to respect boundaries? Have his own been violated so that he has no sense of what is appropriate? I hope this is being examined. The concern is if this sort of pattern continues, it could eventually escalate into something more serious. It does the boy no good to pretend there is no problem. He needs to be taught that people--even girls--have a right to decide if they want someone to touch them. He also needs to know that he himself has that right. I fear there may be something more serious going on in this boy's life. Of course the internet is no place to make such determinations since we don't know the boy. I just hope both he and the girl are being dealt with appropriately and professionally.

[KitSileya]

341. Yes, that is exactly it.

Where do people think that boys learn it is ok to rape a girl who is drunk? Where do you think women get the message that what they want doesn't count? It starts with incidents like these, where children overstep boundaries, and it isn't addressed. It's when a girl is encouraged to shut her mouth and let someone kiss her even when she doesn't want to. It's when little 6-year old boys are encouraged to kiss a girl even when she doesn't want to.

The girl in this instance is rare because the school actually did something other than tell her to suck it up because he liked her. That is what is causing such a brouhaha. That the school actually stood on the side of the girl, and tried to teach this boy that unwanted touching is bad. We have a culture that teaches young girls that if they go to a friend's house and have a drink, they can be raped with impunity, and that prosecuting teenage boys for dragging a girl from party to party, raping and sexually assaulting her is ruining the *boys'* lives, that a girl at 14 can't be raped if she looks older than her age, and that when something happens to her, she is the one that is blamed and shamed. The men in this thread are frothing at the mouth because this incident is a small sign that things are changing.

They labelled it sexual harassment because according to school rules, that is what his behavior is, and in addition probably to distinguish it from the other unacceptable behavior he was displaying. The mother of the boy went to the media and lied, and that forced the girl's mother to also speak out to counter these lies. SO many posting here and in the other thread so clearly haven't read the articles, and have a knee-jerk reaction to defend the status quo. However, I thought DU was a progressive site, who wants to change our society to the better. Apparently teaching boys that they cannot touch and kiss a control girls isn't progressive, if you were to believe DU.

[RC]

386. What I would like to know and is missing from everything I have read about this, is

what did the girl involved think about the attention from the boy?
We don't actually know, for she was never asked. All we know is what her mother said, which is at odds with the mother of the boy.
However, this kissing had been ongoing for a while. The boy had a crush on the girl. Was it reciprocated? Why didn't the girl herself put a stop to it, if she didn't like it? There is no indication she even tried.
From raising my own daughters, I know they would let their feelings known to the perpetrator, or the teachers, or one or the other of their parents, in a situation like this. Also, why did the girl's mother seem to have a spot of difficulty convincing her daughter that she was not suppose to like it? That was in some of the articles I read about this.

These were kids. Neither child has the baggage we adults collect, that so clutter our lives with junk thought processes so many think are right and normal. But instead add to the dysfunction of society. This whole episode is an example of the dysfunction in our society.
Now both kids have started their own collection of junk.

[seabeyond]

389. the students knew she did not want it, hence going to teacher. the teachers knew she did not want

the mother knew she did not want, pretty much figure the girl said.

we didnt hear from the girl? well there you go. betcha she is really wantin all that and lying ot everyone cause we know, ..... no means yes, with some girls anyway

no. the mother was teaching daughter how she could avoid cause she did not like it. see the difference in the wording.

[RC]

403. Except on DU, there is nothing about the students knowing the girl didn't want it.

Except for the mother's say-so, that is. Still nothing from the girl herself. I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the female as always the victim. The women I know are stronger than that. That includes their kids.
Having raised two girls, mostly by myself, from the ages of 3 and 5, into adulthood, I think I might have a clue here.

[seabeyond]

405. of course. and i expect no less. hence, she really wanted all the kissing, just wasnt brave enough

to tell all the adults and students and mom to back the fuck off...

right?

whatever rc

perpetuate. so damn tired of the oh so innocent perpetuation.

[RC]

415. An I am oh so tired of the

male bashing around here. It is automatic with some here, anytime sides can be chosen. Facts be damned.
Not everything is so cut and dried, black and white. This OP story is another example.

[seabeyond]

417. male bashing. so, saying a child should learn boundaries, not get a pass with boys will be boys, is

male bashing.

in other words. shut. up.

[RC]

432. This is only the latest so far.

There will be many more.

[seabeyond]

435. so. then for you. it IS male bashing suggesting a boy needs to learn boundaries. wow. nt

[seabeyond]

437. thank you. i better understand why you are seeing male bashing all around. no behavior is to be

is to be called out if it belongs to a male. so us women, that continually call out sexism, or misogyny are all the time bashing males. not addressing the sexism or misogyny. but merely bashing males. ok.... still need to do some processing on this cause this has only taken me so far.

so basically, women are not allowed to address sexism or misogyny in your view.

is this because there is no sexism or misogyny? or that there is sexism and misogyny, we just are not allowed to call it out cause it is mael bashing. i guess would be the question

see

always working to understand.

[seabeyond]

411. so, a mother that does not draw a line for son, gives him sexual harassment, puts him in front of

fox, validates his behavior, calls the girl a gf and wants it is a good mother and we heard from the boy.

the girl bullied who addressed the people of authority in her life, not in front of the camera, and being taught to avoid the harassment to protect herself is suspect.

interesting conclusions.

[polly7]

412. I don't think the little girl wanted it at all .... but I agree with you

that little girls should not be thought of as victims because they're girls. I remember kicking the snot out of the little boy that kept pulling my ponytail. Back then, involving teachers or parents was something that just wasn't done. Times have changed! I'm hoping the little boy gets the message that people have boundaries to be respected and that no, does in fact mean no, whether it's physical or verbal. Most of all, that the little girl can now feel safe.

[seabeyond]

416. they should nto be thought of as victim because they are girls. that would be absurd. they should

be thought of as victims cause they are minding their own business and another body comes over and victimizes them, you know, bullies them. that would be the definition. not gender.

[polly7]

419. Ya, no shit.

Read better.

[seabeyond]

424. little girls should not be thought of as victims because they're girls

you said it woman. why would you say it. you two are sittin victimization as a girl thing. that is not my issue, but yours. both you guys. the obvious is it is not. the clarity needed because you put it out there.

[polly7]

430. Gah ...... gotta go do something. Not sure what, but I'll find something. nt.

[polly7]

458. I've told you before not to lie about what I said.

I believe small children / boys and girls are equally victims of bullying and having boundaries disrespected (like you did to me and another female here repeatedly - even claiming the right to do so using sexist means - so you're hardly one to talk about boundaries for anyone, really), and that simply because a small child happens to be female, it doesn't automatically make her a 'victim'. Generally speaking - do you understand what that means?

This little girl was OBVIOUSLY victimized by unwanted harassment. I stated I hope the boy learns how to respect boundaries, and that the girl feels safe now. Anything else you want to spin into some unintelligible bullshit?

[seabeyond]

459. yada yada. first sentence. stopped reading. nt

[polly7]

484. I figured you would ...... clearly, respecting boundaries of any type are something

you're in no position to lecture anyone about, and spinning the words of others into the ugliest things possible brings you an amazing amount of satisfaction. It seems pitiful to me, but ... to each their own.

[KitSileya]

441. Are you saying that you will only believe the girl didn't want it if she speaks in front of cameras?

That is quite a bar to set to believing victims. And girls cannot consult with authorities when they are harassed, is that so? We need to deal with it ourselves?

Goodness, I really hope those daughters of yours that gave you clues weren't harassed or bullied - but then, given your statement here, they couldn't have been victims because they didn't speak to the public about it, and even if they did, they presumably had learnt from you that they had to deal with it themselves, so why tell you?

[historylovr]

449. And even then, girls be lying, doncha know.

She probably wanted it and enjoyed it, and just felt bad about all that kissing because her mother told her she should.

[xulamaude]

450. "The women I know are stronger than that."

The old tried and true 'exceptional woman' argument. I only hang around good women (and girls) who are strong and don't take shit from men (and boys).

But basically you are admitting that women and girls do have to take a lot of shit from men and boys?

[seabeyond]

451. what is really interesting about the poster are so many "tells" on how he really feels about women.

a lot of them have been picked out. clearly showing the very contradicitions in his own posting. but, yes, that would be another you point out.

the really bothersome one is take what mom says and twist it to the girls no really means yes. that one, to me, is probably the most vomit inducing of them all. suggesting the girl was lying to mom. and mom had to convince the daughter she really did not want it. not only denying the girl her sexuality she is entitled to, but create the false allegation. and so much more. cause girls me yes when they so no, will change their story when pressured on cause of regret, you know morning after and lie in accusation.

this girl. this 6 yr old girl. being given a distorted version of the supposed adult womans sexuality from an mra man.

all very interesting.

[RC]

456. No, I am saying the opposite. The women and girls do not normally take a lot of shit from others.

Most people can stand up for themselves. You know, like i am doing to you? Gender is immaterial.
If we don't speak out, the harassment from some people will continue till it turns into full fledged bullying. What I am saying here is, stop it.
You are deliberately putting words and meaning in my posts I did not say, mean, nor post. Just as some here are putting words and meanings in that incident at that school, that does not exist either. That incident involved a couple of six year olds at school, with their mothers standing up for their kids. I took both sides with a grain of salt. The truth is somewhere in between.
In neither case were any fathers even mentioned. To me, that means the mothers are raising those kids. But some posters here are using this example as another full blown case of misogyny anyway. The school is responsible to deal with the situation and the mothers are responsible to deal with their children.
But not here on DU. Sides are chosen, misogyny is alleged and woe unto anyone saying anything nice about that pre-sexual predator of a six year old or implying that the sweet, innocent girl might have some fault in this. Oh no, can't be having any of that, now can we?

[xulamaude]

457. When was the last time YOU were a GIRL? nt

[RC]

460. Really? That is your response?

:::walks away shaking head:::

[xulamaude]

465. Yep. Keep walking. nt

[RC]

467. You wish...

I'm not going all that far.

[xulamaude]

469. Back so soon?

Now I'll wait for your last word and I won't reply.

We'll call it even.

[historylovr]

395. We don't know because of the focus.

The focus has been on the boy and his mother because they got out in front of the media first. I don't give the mother of the boy much credibility for that alone, that she deliberately misstated things, sought to embarrass the school, and brought everyone's attention to her poor little "lovelorn" son and how awful it was for him not to be able to kiss this girl in school.

The original label of this as sexual harassment indicates this was unwanted and that it made the girl uncomfortable. You don't know if she didn't say anything to the teacher or not. And if she didn't, maybe the little girl was unsure how to react. Maybe, unlike this boy, she knew she should mind her manners in school and she thought she would get in trouble for pushing back at his and the other boy's attentions. My girls were the same way, although they were told in no uncertain terms we'd back them up.

I don't see where you got that the mother had a spot of difficulty convincing her daughter that she was not supposed to like it out of the article quoted above. If she was uncomfortable, it was likely because she didn't expect her daughter to have to deal with this sort of harassment this early in her life and hadn't yet prepared her for pushy males. She said she had to coach her how to deal with unwanted attention and touching and to avoid him when possible. What I got from that was that the girl didn't like it, her mother tried to teach her how to avoid the unwanted touching but that that hadn't worked because the little boy was aggressive and thought his needs and wants were more important than hers, and he wouldn't take no for an answer.

[RC]

407. I googled the story.

Other sources had more information. The OP source didn't say a whole lot. But I did notice there were a lot of fill in the blanks by the various posters from that link. That is why I looked at other sources, to find out more. The label of sexual harassment was over the top for a six year old. More than likely, it made one or more adults uncomfortable and that is where the sexual harassment came from.

[bettyellen]

398. "Why didn't the girl herself put a stop to it, if she didn't like it?" *slaps forehead*

[redqueen]

404. Reminds me of 'bullying isn't a problem, bullied kids should just stand up to them'.

Conservative types insist that bullied kids should toughen up.

That's not the way to progress imo.

I agree with this: “It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.” -L.R. Knost

[seabeyond]

408. yes. cause girls are much stronger than that. why does she not have her "fuck you" sea legs yet at 6

to stop the unwanted touching, kissing, corralling, aggressive behavior.

girls lie dontcha know. her no is yes. a study says, and girls fantasy is.....

oh. but nothing sexual here. well, except the girl. she looks soooo much older than her chronological years.

[bettyellen]

413. good point, yes. when I was in Chile I saw a lot of kids gone wild- one kicked me in the head

(he jumped up on top of a settee on a ferry) and the kid's Mom laughed and shrugged that I was annoyed. Someone explained they raised kids to be tough. The boy was punching his Mom in the belly as hard as her could, knocking stuff over, banging into lots of people... she seemed delighted by all this.
We went to an island with hundreds of penguins, idiot woman leaves her kid on his own to jump the boundaries, and step on a penguins nest, and the penguin went after him. Carefree mom had a heart attack, so apparently some aggression does upset her. I thought maybe she's let the kid duke it out with the penguin.

[RC]

409. Yeah, girls are so weak and defenseless against six year olds.

[bettyellen]

422. she did what she could to stop it, are you really blaming the six year old girl here?

for not having a tough enough shell yet? God know, every person that tried to get this kid to stop the harassment has already been vilified for it here.

[RC]

438. No, I am blaming the adults at the school for not handling this properly in the first place.

This should never have blown up enough to have made the news. Sexual harassment charges against a six year old? The mother of the boy went public when the school charged sexual harassment by the boy, because she could not get any satisfaction from the school. The school is responsible for letting this get our of hand. For instance, did the school notify, or try to work with either parent before the sexual harassment charge were levied? Really, did they? I'm thinking not.
Given the same circumstances, I'd go public too. If the school can't properly handle this, what else can't they handle? Light of the Sun and all that. Hopefully there will be some kind of investigation of how the school does things and corrections made.

[redqueen]

443. Really? You think the school's first action was to "charge" the bully with sexual harassment?

Really?

(And could you please drop the Fox News "charged"spin? Nobody was "charged" with anything.)

[seabeyond]

448. the kid was not, NOT charges with sexual harassment. that is ONE fact we know for sure. why would

you perpetuate a lie when you are demanding a child get in front of a camera to defend herself?

yes the school talked to the kids and parents. one student stopped. one did not. but then, when a mother of the kid that did not stop says it is good, the girl wanted it and they are GF.... you buy her story. you know. standing in front of FOX news, that lies.

and here you demand the girl speaks and without hearing from school cause they really cannot say anything, you have now placed all blame, decided what they did and did not do, without fact and are in fact vilifying them

do you see the contradiction of your reasoning thru out this post as you lecture people on honesty?

[Mariana]

452. The same lies, over and over and over again. nt.

[seabeyond]

453. i would say this post is the height of tells in what is happening in our society today with girls

and women. that is suppose to come off as balanced and well thought out, but once really hearing what is being said.... wowsers. like when the mom teaches daughter to avoid that harassment, he switches it up to mpm convincing the girl she did not like the kiss. who the fuck would give this to a 6 yr old girl. and then ALL that push in that direction entails. especially what is being said about our young girls with rape today, in this society. liars. no means yes. regret in the morning and false allegation. everything that was wrapped up in that manipulation of what was actually said.

i would say this is the worst and i guess i still hold to that. but a post above that appears to be so satirically written that would mock the mans position on this, you would think a feminist came up with it. but... it was written by a man. and he was serious. biggest fuckin hoot.

maybe both are the worst. but one cause it is really scary in the manipulative way showing how he feels about women, and the other, just fuckin funny and the satirical nature, be presented as a reality.

ok. messy post here. was just thinking things thru.

[Mariana]

455. I know you have sons, and they've had their own experiences.

I have daughters, both of whom were sexually harassed at school. The younger one, it took place in elementary school. She was not only kissed, she was groped, and the boy who did it had a long pattern of such behavior.

People who think this doesn't go on among young children are living in fantasyland. I'll accept that the kids who are doing it may not really understand what it is they're doing, but that doesn't make it any better for the victims. The effect on the victims is the SAME.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

421. Perhaps because she is a child and looks

to adults, AKA teachers, for help?

[leftyladyfrommo]

396. When I was in elementary school about 1955

there was a little boy named David that used to try and kiss all the girls. We hated it.

He had some kind of emotional problems, obviously, but no one paid attention to that sort of stuff back then. He also got up and ran around all the time so the teacher tied him to his desk. Poor little guy was from a poor family and had glasses that were taped together and wore shirts that had been washed so many times all the color was gone out of them.

I have often wondered what happened to that little kid.

[Cleita]

418. Back then he would have been drafted into the army if he

managed to stay out of jail. Usually, the army had a way so straightening out kids like that and instilling a purpose to their lives before Nixon, anyway. Hopefully, he didn't get killed in war and went on to get an education on the GI Bill and became a useful and contributing citizen today.

[Cleita]

425. I used to beat the crap out of any little boy who tried

to tease or harass me in any way especially with touching. This was circa the 1940's and teachers didn't really bother much about scores being settled on the playground. The little bullies learned to keep their distance. Today with judo and karate lessons available, little girls can be taught to defend themselves.

[leftyladyfrommo]

486. One of my friends used to just kick the shit out of boys who bothered her.

She got mad at one of her boyfriends and threw him over the stair railing at school.

I was never aggressive enough to do stuff like that. I just stayed away from the trouble makers. Honestly, I don't remember that there was ever much bullying going on.

We did have some kids in class that came from really bad situations - poor and alcohol. One poor kid was late every morning because he had to wait for the store to open so he could get his mother's smokes. Everyone just kind of turned a blind eye to family conditions.

[Cleita]

487. Oh my! I didn't go so far to hurting them by throwing

them over a railing, just enough to make them scream uncle before I let them go. It's true some of the little boys and girls came from unfortunate family situations and also suffered from behavior problems that are treated today, but back then the teachers just coped anyway they could and often the solution they came up with was something that would be considered borderline abusive today.

[leftyladyfrommo]

488. Really.

Tying that kid to his chair never hurt him. It just kept him from running all over the place. Couldn't do that today.

[lillypaddle]

423. bunch of sick puppies

accusing a six year old of "sexual harassment." The behavior may require explanation about appropriateness, and possibly discipline of some sort, perhaps it could have been seen as bullying. But sexual harassment? Things have gone too far.

[Mariana]

454. Here we go again.

It didn't happen once, it went on over a period of time. The kid was talked to. He was disciplined. None of those things worked. He would not leave the girl alone, even after these interventions.

We don't know the whole story. We don't know what he said to the school staff, when they talked with him. It's possible that the behavior went beyond merely kissing the girl. In any case, I think it's better for the school to begin to document what may become a long-term pattern of problem behavior, rather than ignore it.

[Bradical79]

480. I agree up to a point.

The kid is six and has no clue he's "sexually harassing" anybody. At that age, you can only really blame his mom if he's not getting the message. Suspending him is as much a message for her as it is the kid. It should have been taken care of by the mother early on.

[Bradical79]

478. This changes my perception

When I had first heard about it it sounded like it was a one time thing. Just a little boy being a little boy. But when he is told no multiple times at some point there needs to be consequences to drive the message home. The school can't just let this kid keep harassing this little girl regardless of his age.

[gollygee]

482. OMG someone responds sensibly to this whole thing

DU has lost its collective marbles over this. Most people made up their minds before they knew the facts, and aren't letting the facts get in the way of their opinions.

[mwrguy]

481. curb stomp that little predator

Before he becomes a big predator.

[Ian David]

485. It sounds like the school did the right thing. n/t