School drops sexual harassment claim against 6-year-old

[Ichingcarpenter]

(CNN) -- Amid a tidal wave of negative publicity, a Colorado school system has let a 6-year-old boy return to school and said it won't classify his kissing a girl on the hand as sexual harassment.


The story of first-grader Hunter Yelton made national news and spurred outrage this week after word spread that his school near Colorado Springs suspended him for the kiss and accused him of sexually harassing the girl.

On Wednesday night, CNN affiliate KRDO reported that Canon City Schools Superintendent Robin Gooldy met with Hunter's parents. The superintendent then changed Hunter's disciplinary offense from "sexual harassment" to "misconduct."

The boy has also returned to school.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/12/us/six-year-old-kissing-girl-suspension/

Good .... time to move on.

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. Indeed.

All these stories do is expose just how far gone we are.

[Puzzledtraveller]

57. Sense or proportion is nil

It's hard for me to understand the minds that can be so regimented, so strict. Rules for the sake of rules and you can even see it's defenders in this thread.

[JI7]

2. shitty parent goes to media

[PuraVidaDreamin]

3. Huh?

?

[JI7]

4. the kid's shitty mother went to media and lied and said the girl wanted it

and made her son out to be a victim.

i would say he is a victim, a victim of a shitty parent.

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. I agree with the School Board's decesion

and ruling having been a teacher,
the mother is another matter.

It was misconduct not sexual harassment, I know how school records can hurt a kid.

[Dorian Gray]

13. I agree

This kid's mom should take the time to teach him that continuing to kiss a girl who doesn't want to be kissed is a form of harassment.

Having said that, the school went overboard with its punishment. The families and the school should work together to find a solution.

If the mother is running to the press, though, I don't know how willing she is to work with anybody. And if this persists? Then it could be problematic.

[gollygee]

27. I agree with that

I wouldn't call it "sexual harassment" as I think that term should be used for adult-motivated harassment, but he gave her repeated unwanted attention and was possessive and wouldn't let her play with other kids, again repeatedly. It warrants attention but his parents seem to think it's cute and appear to me to be encouraging it.

It is not unusual. One of my daughters did this. And it is pretty easily handled if the parents don't freaking encourage it. A time or two in time-out and a talk about boundaries should be enough. The suspension is probably to force the parents to deal with it.

[99Forever]

23. Shitty knee-jerk school adminisrators expsed as idiots. n/t

[IdaBriggs]

67. Idiot people forget about normal childhood development;

mother has to publicly humiliate them to remind them before they ruin the lives of more children.

The first person who tolerates an injustice quietly enables it for everyone else.

My perspective; yours obviously differs.

[malaise]

6. Never had I seen anything quite that 16th century

Good fucking grief whatever happened to playing doctor?
The RW loonies have surely taken over.

[whttevrr]

83. Just to be clear. The girls mother said it was repeated unwanted contact.

It may not rise up to a lifelong inclusion on a predator list, but the kid needs to learn that no means no.

[magical thyme]

97. exactly. and the boy's mother needs to learn that her son is a liar...and he learned

to lie to get his own way, apparently from her.

The kid needs to learn boundaries (he has also been in trouble for excessive horseplay), to not be a bully (physically preventing the girl from playing with the other kids) and respect for the word "no."

The mother needs to learn that lying to the media (she claimed the girl's parents never objected, when in fact both the girl and her parents objected) to get her own way is *not* appropriate behavior and sets a really piss-poor example for her son.

IOW, that whole family needs some intervention.

[KitSileya]

7. Now that the mother let everyone know what happened,

they have no choice but to try to mitigate some of the damage she has done by painting her own son as a sexual harasser. The behavior was sexual harassment, fair and square - repeated unwanted kissing of a girl the boy (and his mother) considered his "girlfriend." The fact that the boy was punished for said sexual harassment shouldn't have been known to anyone but the boy's parents and the school, because the school has to keep to their confidentiality clauses. The note would not have followed him when he left the school district - it was in their internal files. However, now that the mother has brayed it to every media outlet possible, the school probably had no choice but to amend the offense category - they are more concerned about the boy than his mother is.

And we wonder why we have judges that give probation to 16-year olds that kill 4 while DUI - there cannot be any consequences to bad behavior, natch.

[Bohunk68]

8. You are comparing a kiss

to someone killing 4 others? That's just over the top. You should edit your post and omit that last sentance.

[KitSileya]

10. So many here on DU don't want this kid punished for his behavior

because they think it was innocent and cute. Where do they think the entitlement of these teenagers come from, if not from their parents and others excusing their behavior? It wasn't a kiss - it was continued harassment. The boy was creating a hostile environment for the girl, refusing to let her play with others, kissing her all the time. This had been addressed by the school at least twice before. His mother claims that the girl "wanted it" and is his "girlfriend." What do you think this boy is learning when he has his mother defending his harassment, public notice in the form of reporters cooing over his so-called crush, and him hearing them say the school overreacted? Today harassment, tomorrow.... In the case of the mentioned 16-year old, he had previous infractions he hadn't been punished for by his parents, and he used that as his defense! I don't think the analogy is too far-fetched, even if it is extreme.

[NuclearDem]

11. Exactly.

I'm not sure if I'm crazy about the level of punishment he was dealt in this case necessarily, but this sort of behavior has to be nipped in the bud early.

Treating this sort of thing as cute or innocent fun is helping rape culture grab another child early.

[Bonobo]

9. Lord in Heaven, 6 years olds are not capable of "sexual harassment"!!!!

Can you fucking hear yourself?

Have you ZERO idea how preposterous you sound!?

[KitSileya]

12. As I have stated elsewhere,

His behavior constitutes sexual harassment, even if it wasn't sexually meant. The EEOC states that sexual harassment doesn't have to be sexual, it can also be harassment because of your sex. The boy is kissing the girl because he has a crush on her and sees her as his girlfriend (without regard to her denial) - how can you say that is not harassment caused by her sex? The term goes to his behavior, not to the boy himself. His behavior can be sexual harassment - it's what we would have called it in any other situation - but at the same time NOT say that the boy is a sexual offender, or sexual harasser.

[Bonobo]

14. It is NOT sexual harassment.

He's 6 years old and you need a little less EEOC definition and a little more common sense.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. Why stop at mere harassment?

Why not call it sexual assault? Twenty-five years in the slammer ought to straighten the little predator right out.

[seabeyond]

55. it was documentation that went in a file. no more or less. no one would see. it was not following

the kid to adulthood. it was documentation for referrence for future behavior. it is expected that kids behaviors called out are going to be documented.

so... put in unwanted kisses and a refusal to stop. parents refusal to address the issue. bullying little girls. better for you?

[Demo_Chris]

138. Anything less just reinforces the patriarchal rape culture...

[Puzzledtraveller]

48. Sad

[EducatorInTraining]

61. so

based on this statement you are saying that if the boy had kissed another boy then it was not sexual harassment because they are both the same sex?

If these children were old enough to understand the term Sexual Harassment I would agree that it was sexual harassment, but these are small early emerging children who need to be taught how to understand their own feelings, some children at this age still don't understand how others feel simply because their brain has not developed properly, probably due to parenting practices and not by any fault of the child.

Regardless if the children were old enough to understand, it would not matter what the sex of either party is to be deemed sexual harassment.

[KitSileya]

72. he would be kissing the boy because he was boy, would he not?

Because he was having a crush on him? That is the defense of the boy in this case - he has a crush on her and considers her his girlfriend. I don't see that that would be different if the feelings are for a boy - if the other boy said no and didn't want it, it would be harassment, and sexual at that (directed towards the boy because of his sex.) If the parents of the second boy had to teach him how to deal with persistent unwanted touching, how is that not sexual harassment, regardless of the gender of the child who is doing it? (If it was an adult, it is a completely different matter, of course, a criminal matter, but we're dealing with two 6-year olds here, and then it is certainly not a criminal matter.)

[IdaBriggs]

66. 6 year olds can't have sex. They have not gone through puberty.

They may understand the mechanisms (MAYBE - mine don't yet, and I'm pretty progressive; we are still at the "babies grow in mommy's belly, put there by a special kind of adult love, etc." stage) but until they finish puberty, their bodies are not capable of having sex.

Children learn by imitating behavior. Kissing is usually a form of affection; you only "kiss" people you care about.

When my daughter was four, she and a little boy "got engaged" and she tried to kiss him on the cheek "because mommy and daddy kiss each other" and we used the opportunity to explain about appropriate boundaries / who you kiss, and when. She also asked for him to spend the night, and said that he could sleep in her bed with her, again because mommy and daddy sleep in the same bed. Fortunately, all of the parents involved are reasonable people, and after we finished laughing, we again explained that it wasn't appropriate.

Labeling this type of normal developmental stage in a fashion like "sexual harassment" is one of the most ignorant things I've read in a long time.

Oh, and we also started making up rules about when people are allowed to get married in our house: you have to be graduated from college, both have jobs, approval by the parents on all sides, and be at least twenty-one. Will they obey these rules? Well, my twins are six years old now, so hopefully I won't be dealing with it for a while yet.

[rdking647]

80. that sounds like the kind of think a bureaucrat would say

just rote repeating of a definition,no common sense involved just an if A then B statement

[KitSileya]

82. Why the fear of calling his behavior for what it is?

The principal wouldn't have stood up in assembly and proclaimed that little Hunter is being suspended for sexual harassment. Only the school and his family would have access to his disciplinary record, and it is very clear his mother doesn't think that particular behavior was wrong. She agrees that he should be punished for his roughhousing, but that his kissing is apparently cute. She is angry that she had to explain to the boy what sex is, but a boy that keeps kissing a girl against her will can have sex explained to him in an age-appropriate way, and sexual harassment too. Leftymom, for example, phrased it really well in one of her posts.

As it is, I think the focus should be on the mother's and everyone else's reaction to this - the excusing and dismissing of the seriousness of this behavior. The girl was being touched and kissed against her will - her mother has had to teach her how to deal with persistent and unwanted touching. Dealing with it now, when it is still non-sexualized, is so much better than having to do it later, when the boy has reached puberty and is having urges and haven't learned that he cannot touch and kiss others with impunity. And should it, though I hope not, turn out that he is doing it in reaction to some trauma, calling sexual harassment what it is rather than bullying will give the school and the child psychologists a hint as to what the trauma might be.

[Niceguy1]

86. the EEOC does not apply here

it is not a workplace it is a6 year old child for Christ sakes child that probably doesn't even know what sex is.

ground him from recess and be done with it.

[seabeyond]

89. they did that. that failed. they talked to parents, that failed. so they took the next step and

kicked him out of school for a couple days.

now maybe the parents will do their job and teach a 6 yr old the boundaries he needs to successfully navigate social interaction. which is the priority for the kids at this age as much as the academics.

blame the parent that shrugged the shoulders. then be done with it. once the girls environment is comfortable for her and the boy learns much needed and appropriate boundaries.

[TexasProgresive]

22. How about a more generic term-bullying?

I don't really know any details of this case, but it seems this boy was singling out this girl. I don't know what the solution is but the girl should not have to put up with him. If he is obsessed with her perhaps he needs to be moved to a different class or a different school and see if his misbehavior continues.

[Bonobo]

25. Sounds more reasonable to me. nt

[seabeyond]

30. butit wuld not have been, if that was the word chosen. there is a clear desire to make this

innocent and cute. ignore... simply ignoring the fact the kid was repeatedly called on it. appropriate actions taken. first, discussion. then in school discipline. talking to parents. out of school discipline. but, people ignore that fact.

what people in this argument want to do is dismiss the action and create an innocent scenario. it isnt. the mother failed.

one kid stopped, cause the parents probably made it clear boundaries to knock it off. another kids did not. could it be the mom saying, ... meh, innocent. bf and gf

do you THINK it might be the mom that failed and not everyone else.

[Bonobo]

34. In all seriousness

It is quite impossible to have a conversation with someone that is so out there that they think it is reasonable to call a 6 year old a sex offender.

Night.

[seabeyond]

38. they did not call the kid a sex offender. change the wording for your agenda. and no, not in all

seriousness. seriousness would be leaving the rhetoric out and looking at the issue.

[Bonobo]

45. Ooops, sorry. "Sexual harasser". Big difference.

Six. Years. Old.

[seabeyond]

60. so what? so the fuck what? putting he repeatedly kissed and touched a girl regardless of being told

to stop and not having support from the parent is like.... so much different? or are you saying that the kid should have been totally left alone cause it is all cute and normal behavior and teachers should just allow this harassment of another student?

no one sees the file. it goes nowhere. does not follow the kid. is nto an offenders list which is absolutely ridiculous. documentation to be able to refer to

are you saying that is the issue?

[Bonobo]

62. I'm saying precisely one thing. Try to follow.

Calling it "sexual harassment" is ridiculous at a minimum and steering close to crazy.

That is all that I am saying.

[seabeyond]

69. see... you want to narrowly focus to such a ridiculous point to be able to be outraged.

it isnt there. simple... follow me. try.

[Puzzledtraveller]

51. You have to wonder

What joy is there in some peoples lives in minds so regemented there must be little room for heart. I feel sorry for people who think like that.

[seabeyond]

58. i guess the flip side would be me wondering at the dismissal of a little girls school environment

being made hostile for her. or a little boy that is not being taught the boundaries he needs in order to successfully navigate the social environment. cause i gotta tell you, i am as much on the little boys side as the little girl. and his parents failed him. those in this thread that refuse to recognize our duty to teach this boy, fails him

[Puzzledtraveller]

59. Yes, they must be taught, lessons, taught, lessons, lessons, lessons,

Can we create a gulag especially for 6 year olds? You'd make a fine warden.

[seabeyond]

63. omg. so, now we do not teach our kids? really. omg. are you a parent? to this day, i am still

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:53 AM - Edit history (1)

teaching my kids stuff. age appropriate over every stage in life. i am still learning lesson. how absurd this conversation has become. you are suggesting we not teach our little kids boundaries? cause i gotta tell you. they NEED parents to give them boundaries. they NEED that guidance. they beg us to teach them.

wowser

lets really play a game here

[LanternWaste]

88. Or we may simply let them do what they want, when they want, how they want and to whom they want.

Or we may simply let them do what they want, when they want, how they want and to whom they want.
A shangri-la for six year olds.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other... and both as irrelevant as the other.

(insert distinction without a difference here)

[Bonobo]

64. Problem: NO ONE ever said anything that could be interpreted said dismissal.

So that's err, where you veer into the realm of la-la.

[seabeyond]

68. this whole fuckin thread is dismissal. not a person is saying, ya... something had to be addressed.

the boy was not getting the parental guidance he needed. parenting fail. as a matter of fact. when addressing that issue a poster is going on about gulag. so ya. it is absolutely a dismissal of the little girl and her experience. and it is a dismissal of teaching a little boy boundaries and the parenting fail in that department. that is even worse. because the little girl has parents that will take care of her, did take care of her. she will be fine. lucky girl.

the little boy i feel way more sorry for cause his parents are failing him

[NuclearDem]

70. The kid wasn't arrested, much less charged with a sex offense.

That hyperbolic nonsense isn't helping. Did the school go a little too far? Yes. Did it need to do something to put an end to this? Absolutely.

The problem with dismissing this as something that kids just do isn't particularly good. Rape culture is so pervasive and deeply rooted that things that once seemed innocent and harmless are being understood to be root causes of the problem in society at large.

I'm not saying this kid is likely to be a rapist, but that's not what rape culture is. Parents not teaching their kids about proper boundaries and acceptable behavior is a major contributor. The mother did herself and her son no favors going to the press about this and getting a screwed up culture to excuse his behavior.

[SomethingFishy]

91. +1000

The man hating section of DU is really going off the deep end on this kid. Somehow this is all related to the "rape culture".

This is a boundaries and behavior issue not a sexual issue. I saw a post today that said I am naive if I don't think 7 year olds talk about rape.

[seabeyond]

92. "This is a boundaries and behavior issue" which the "man hating" group is discussing, whereas the

man excusing group is refusing to acknowledge. another little trip for you. the man hating group are actually on the little boys side and pissed at the parent, (you know the mom, a woman) who didnt do her fuckin job giving this boy the boundaries that he needs to successfully navigate social appropriateness with his peers.

kinda a hoot. that we man hating people are actually on the little boys side wanting the best for him so he can be successful in life. while the man excusing group merely makes excuses allowing said behavior to continue at the determent of the childs successful navigation of social environment.

dontcha think?

[gollygee]

94. What have you been reading?

1. There is no "man hating" group at DU.

2. I haven't heard this being considered part of rape culture.

3. Rape culture is real and doesn't belong in quotes.

4. I think everyone agrees this is a boundaries and behavior issue. Even those who think "sexual harassment" is an appropriate term (and I don't think that) think it's appropriate because it's related to sex as in gender, not because it's sexual.

5. I saw that post and it said some 7-year-olds talk about rape. My kid didn't know what it was at 7. But of course some 7-year-olds do as some 7-year-olds have been raped.

[NuclearDem]

110. To be fair, I've been frequently drawing rape culture into the discussion.

Because boundary issues are a part of it.

[gollygee]

112. Yeah boundaries are

But not 6-year-olds. Peoples' responses here to what he did absolutely could be, I mean geeze it's like they're frothing at the mouth to excuse anything anyone does to anyone lately, but this little kid was just being a little kid who needs to be taught to keep his hands (and lips) to himself.

[NuclearDem]

111. Which section is that?

I very much doubt most (or any, for that matter) of the regular HoF posters (including me, a man) hate men.

If opposition to rape culture means "man hater" to you, then you might want to revisit want you consider it means to be a man.

[gollygee]

17. The unwanted attention can be dealt with

without assuming adult intentions. The only way a 6-year-old could really sexually harrass is if the 6-year-old was a victim of abuse, and then that abuse victim's needs would be great and his behavior would be seen as a symptom. I agree that this boy (whose behavior doesn't sound like a symptom of abuse) needs to stop trying to kiss this girl since she doesn't want it, and he has to allow her to play with her friends obviously, but I would think consistently having him sit in time out if he tries to kiss her or starts up with possessive behavior would curb it. Labelling it "sexual harrassment" and punishing as if that adult motivation is what's going on seems really harsh for that age.

If they've had him sit in time out consistently and he's still doing it, then suspension might even make sense to force his parents to deal with it, as it doesn't sound like they see his behavior as a problem, but I still wouldn't label it "sexual harassment." That's a label that doesn't fit a 6-year-old's motivations.

I do agree that it warrants attention, because that kind of posessiveness among kids (which can happen outside of crushes too) isn't something kids necessarily grow out of on thier own, and it really can cause problems in a school. It can make the kid who is the subject of posessiveness (whether part of a crush or not) hate school and have problems focusing on school work. One of my kids got really possessive about a boy in her school and let him to play with anyone else, and I had to talk to her about having other friends and how he is allowed to have other friends, and I kept in touch with the teacher to make sure my daughter was allowing him to do what he wanted. It was a good learning experience for her. But if this parent is calling it cute, they're encouraging it.

[KitSileya]

20. There's an automatic tendency to think of sexual harassment

as sexual behavior. Granted, in most cases it is. However, sexual harassment can also be harassment because of someone's sex. That's what the EEOC's guide lines says. The boy's behavior is because the girl is a girl he has a crush on. I am sure he doesn't have any sexual thoughts or motivations, but he is harassing her because of her gender, and moreover, he is harassing her in a way which in any other circumstance we would recognize as sexual harassment. They initially labelled it as such on his discipline record - a record that wouldn't have been publicized if not for HIS mother, and I think that was the correct decision. This boy isn't getting the right message at home, so his problem may escalate. If that should happen, the school could point to the discipline record and get him the help he needed.

[lightcameron]

28. Wow! Yesterday you were equating this to "hitting." Now it's "killing"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4163833

Absolute nuttiness.

[KitSileya]

35. I am not equating it with killing.

What I am doing, is equating the mother's excuses, as well as those here on DU who dismiss his behavior as natural and cute, with the parents of said 16-year old who dismissed his behavior and refused to curb it, to which the end result was that the 16-year old drove into a group of people under the influence, killing 4. He successfully defended himself in court with his parents' history of not punishing him for his previous actions. Many DUers don't see anything wrong with this boy's behavior, and sod the girl and her wishes, and I ask, what may be the consequences if this boy were to get away with his behavior without any reaction?

[Bonobo]

15. It is exactly the same as arresting a 6 year old for making his finger into a gun and pointing it.

"Nipping murder in the bud" you might say -if you were a reactionary dipshit, that is.

It is exactly the same thing.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. If the child had reached puberty

As in a 5th or 6th grade student then sexual harassment would be mentioned additionally to the child and parent in charges against the student.

First Grade?...... nope.

[seabeyond]

31. no arrest. no kid was arrested. it is not even kinda the same, let alone exactly

[Bonobo]

37. Yes, the mentality is precisely the same. nt

[seabeyond]

40. see. you said exactly the same as an arrest. it is not. so now you say mentality. it is not.

any kind of punishment for this kids parents to take the issue seriously seems to equal arrest for you.

so, are you suggesting the school do nothing and allow this bullying to the girl? that would be absurd.

[Bonobo]

50. LOL

Who is trying to have a serious discussion now?

My point is that both are an extreme overreaction based upon criminal behavior that occurs among adults and then extending that into the way children are 'policed'.

And of course I think the school should not allow the girl to be bullied!

I am glad you are now switching to a more reasonable term.

My only objection is to calling it "sexual harassment".

[seabeyond]

65. no. it is not an overreaction to tell the kid to quit kissing the girl. then to tell the parent

you had an issue with son and please address. then to have the boy continue to kiss the girl and stepping up punishment to in school detention and telling the parent to address the issue. and then finally giving the kid out of school suspension cause nothing was being done on the parents side.

no. that is NOT overreaction.

over reaction is suggesting that this is the same as sending some kid to jail

[Bonobo]

74. OK. You DON'T think calling him a sexual predator is an exaggeration. Got it. nt

[seabeyond]

84. again...false statement for agenda. nowhere was he called, referred to, or implied to be a sexual

predator.

fuckin ridiculous

[Bonobo]

85. What do YOU call someone who commits "sexual harassment", Sea? nt

[LanternWaste]

90. Guess it depends if they do over and over again, regardless of being told not to, and regardless of

Guess it depends if they do over and over again, regardless of being told not to, and regardless of intervention.

Although I imagine handful of sub-literate idiots would rationalize that too as "innocent" and merely "boys being boys"




(Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Insert distinction without a difference here)

[U4ikLefty]

137. Is that the only song you know?

lame

[Dash87]

93. This isn't the same as an arrest. The boy needs to be taught this behavior isn't okay.

A trip down to the office for this one and detention / suspension would suffice if the behavior continues.

I think he should also hand-write a 1 page letter of apology.

[Lancero]

18. Yes, he's a little predator...

Lets just ignore the child psychologist who stated that this was expected behavior for a child at that age. The one who said that this was normal for those at this age.

After all, she doesn't know what she's talking about. All she has is a peice of paper that says she does.

[KitSileya]

21. I wonder if the psychologist knew the full circumstances?

A boy kissing a girl spontaneously on the cheek or even on the mouth is one thing - in most cases, if not all, an innocent thing. The mother tried to portray it like that in the initial reports, and I'm willing to bet that that is the scenario the child psychologist was given. Repeatedly kissing a girl against her clearly stated will, even after at least two warnings and one prior punishment, is a bit more serious, don't you think?

[Lancero]

24. A kiss on the hand...

Is, depending on upbringing, sometimes considered a greeting.

I can agree with this if it was on the mouth. Thats cut and dry. Perhaps on the cheek as well. But this?

I'd agree either way, if the kid was old enough to have sexual desires. But he's six. He doesn't have any sexual desires. It's the adults who made it sexual harassment. Not the children.

[KitSileya]

26. He kissed her on the hand. This time.

Previously, it was ""Not once, but over and over...not with her permission but sneaking up on her...not without warning and consequences prior to suspension," she stated."

I am sure he has no sexual desires behind his behavior. Typically only abused children do that. But his mother is encouraging him, and she seems set on this idea that the girl is his "girlfriend" and the boy has a history of unwanted behavior, such as roughhousing. His continued kissing of the girl against her will, is, prima facie, sexual harassment - not sexualized harassment, but harassment because of her sex/gender.

[Lancero]

29. "Unwanted history of behavior, such as roughhousing..."

Jesus christ, he's a six year old kid. Roughhousing is natural behavior.

In comparison, children roughhousing is like puppies biting each other. Do we put the puppies down, because they are overly agressive and a threat to people? No. We don't. Because, for puppies, that is natural behavior. It's apart of their natural development.

[seabeyond]

36. and this mentality would be you failing your child teaching him boundaries so he could be successful

thru out his school years.

that simple.

at 4, 5, 6 the whole intent of those years are teaching kids social behaviors and boundaries to help them navigate thru life.

your mentality would be part of the problem.

[Bonobo]

43. Learning how to roughhouse without letting it reach the stage of a severe fight

is an important skill that boys can only learn through practice.

Here in Japan, kids are allowed to roughhouse.

Compare that with the zero tolerance in America.

Here is the result:

In Japan, kids learn how to not go too far. They learn how to measure their responses.

In America, men grow up without the experience of how to mediate their behavior so when a fight DOES happen, it is completely out of control and real injuries occur.

You don't know as much as you think you do. And of men? Very little indeed.

[seabeyond]

49. not in school. there is a time and place and not in school. and girls, too, enjoy roughhousing.

4, 5, 6 is also the exact time they are learning much needed boundaries to interact socially. that is what that age is all about and that is as important what schools are teaching as the a, b, c's and 1, 2, 3's.

and continually forcing a girl to be kissed, isolating her from her play mates, not allowing her her freedom is not mere roughhousing. quit making excuses like the mother did. she failed her son by not giving him boundaries. kids want, need boundaries. and the parent that does not provide fail their children.

[gollygee]

54. Ha you and I posted the "time and place" thing at the same time n/t

[Bonobo]

56. Of course in school.

School is for everything that a child needs to learn.

For example, in Japan, school lunches are not merely recess where kids are left on their own. Eating is an important activity -VERY- and it is treated as part and parcel of the child's education.

"and continually forcing a girl to be kissed, isolating her from her play mates, not allowing her her freedom is not mere roughhousing. quit making excuses like the mother did. she failed her son by not giving him boundaries. kids want, need boundaries. and the parent that does not provide fail their children."

Now you're getting silly. I have done nothing of the kind.

[seabeyond]

71. whatever bonobo. you know, i am all over on this boys side. spending so much time in the system,

participant constantly, watching the parents that are too fuckin lazy, or busy to do their job with their kids. ya. time consuming and work. and our responsibility to our kids. it does this boy no favors at all to pretend it is something it is not. to ignore the behavior. or make excuses for the behavior. i have watched a decade and half the kids growing up with guidance and those without.

HUGE ass difference.

done.

[Bonobo]

76. Yeah, whatever indeed.

Waste of time.

[KitSileya]

75. You aren't accused of doing it.

"and continually forcing a girl to be kissed, isolating her from her play mates, not allowing her her freedom is not mere roughhousing. quit making excuses like the mother did. she failed her son by not giving him boundaries. kids want, need boundaries. and the parent that does not provide fail their children."

This is what the mother of the girl said the boy did to her daughter. He refused to let her play with others, he kept kissing her all the time - it went so far that the other children, including the girl's brother, had to intervene. However, the boy's mother said the girl "wanted it" and is her son's "girlfriend", and if that isn't making excuses, I don't know what is. In the meantime, the girl's mother had to teach her 6-year old how to deal with persistent unwanted touching and kissing from a classmate. How's that for learning?

[KitSileya]

41. So you would wait untila dog was full grown before teaching him not to bite?

Remind me to never get anywhere near any dog where you had a hand in its training.

Luckily, the boy has a school that is trying to teach him that his behavior towards his fellow pupils is wrong. Unluckily, he has a mother that goes crying to the media when the school tries to prepare her boy for real life.

[Lancero]

77. Hardely.

You train them throughout, using increasingly tougher methods as they age until they are grown. Along with this, you also have to account for their age and maturity in relation to their actions. A puppy biting another puppy is natural behavior in accordance with their age.

At this kids age, they didn't teach him anything. They made a example of him - But making a example of is different from teaching right and wrong.

[KitSileya]

81. I don't see how working with his family

to the extent that is possible with that mother, and increasing his punishments each time he misbehaves is stating an example of him? Remember, nobody but those involved would have known about the case if the mother hadn't gone crying to the media, and even with the incident on his disciplinary record, only school employees and family would have known exactly what he was suspended for.

[gollygee]

53. I think that's a "time and place" thing

Roughhousing is normal, and for girls too (my daughters - particularly one of them - are quite the roughhousers) but school isn't the place.

And obviously no one is talking about euthanizing any children over this. It shouldn't have had to lead to suspension though. That seems way over the top to me. The kid should have been put in time out when he wouldn't let her play with other kids or kissed her when she didn't want it, and the parents should have supported him learning how to behave. I don't know if the first ever happened, and the second appears to have not happened at all.

[seabeyond]

73. first step talking to and time out adn discussing with parent. next... in school detention

and talking to parent. next.... out of school suspension. seems like they followed a reasonable path and if they had any participation, cooperation from the parent, it would not have gone this far. parental failure.

[seabeyond]

32. he is a kid whose parents refused to teach him boundaries. no more or less. nt

[Lancero]

79. A kid...

Whose actions are - according to a child psychologist, one specilizing in child sexual development and preventing child sexual abuse - completely normal.

But hey, lets ignore the lady with the degree. We are outraged over this, so what does she know? We don't want to hear anything that goes against our emotional response.

http://www.krdo.com/news/child-psychologist-sixyearold-kissing-girl-normal-behavior/-/417220/23405622/-/kmp39mz/-/index.html

[seabeyond]

87. you have to fabricate an argument to be able to argue. i am well aware what is normal. many of my

post shows i am beyond your ability in understanding child development. i never said it was not normal for kids to kiss, ect. what is not normal is when a kid this age is addressed about the issue, told to stop and he refuses. what is not normal is for a kid to escalate in punishment to address the issue, the parents being informed, and not stopping the behavior. THAT is not normal. THAT is a parental fail that did not give her child the boundaries he needed to successfully navigate the social environment. THAT will not serve the child well.

check out child psychology on children this age NEED, WANT of boundaries so they can successfully socialize with peers. that is what this age is all about. that is where the parent horribly failed her son. i do not put the problem on the child at all. at this age.... it is all on the parent.

[Penicilino]

33. It's ridiculous that a child this young was charged

with a crime.

[KitSileya]

39. Then it is good that he wasn't charged, then.

Welcome to DU, but please read the relevant articles if you wish to participate in the discussions here. It does help when everyone has read the source material, and we don't have to clear up misconceptions again and again.

[seabeyond]

44. state the crime the child was charged with/ i anxiously await your answer so i can so fuckin' be on

your side

[Demit]

42. Little boys have to learn they can't touch or kiss little girls if little girls say stop, or no.

I hope the scornful posters in this thread consider how it won't be such cute behavior when this boy gets older. I hope they stop and think how they'd feel if it were their little girl this was happening to. From the article:

"...The mother, who is also a teacher in the school district, said Hunter had tried to kiss her daughter "over and over" without her permission, according to Canon City Daily Record.
"I've had to coach her about what to do when you don't want someone touching you, but they won't stop," Masters-Ownbey told the newspaper."

[EducatorInTraining]

46. It was obvious

I watched the video of the boy talking. And using my knowledge of child psychology it seems obvious that the mother of this child is not properly handling the situation. If anyone listens to the boy and not the mother they will hear that the boy thinks it is alright for him to use his normal energy in any way he sees fit. The boy knows he did something wrong but the end of his statement on the video seems to suggest that he was coaxed to say what his mother wanted him to say. This parent needs to teach the child when it is appropriate to use his energy and when it is not. He needs to be taught that kissing is not appropriate if the other person does not want it and should not occur at school.

I believe the mother said things that would make her story capture the news because at 6, being told he was in trouble for sexual harassment the child would not have asked "what is sex" he would have asked "what is that( or sexual harassment)"

I do not agree that the term sexual harassment should have been put in his file at this age, that should be saved for older children in Jr./Sr. High. This child obviously needs some guidance, and the parent(s) should consider getting family counseling so that they can learn how and what is appropriate to say when guiding this little boy. He needs to learn what is appropriate and not appropriate, but he needs his mother to not make excuses for his actions. He is 6, but that does not give him a right to touch another person...hearing his mother say that his is 6 and full of energy teaches him it is ok as long as he is 6...then next year 7...8...9...etc. Hearing his mother say it is not ok to touch people without their permission and omitting the age and energy statements will hopefully reverse any parenting choices that made the child think it was alright to kiss this girl.

Changing the Sexual Harassment label is appropriate for a child of this age, this is simply 'misconduct' or a better phrase 'inappropriate misconduct'. However, by using any label the school district as well as the parent(s) should be responsible to ensure that the child understands what the label means not just give the definition and expect them to know. There are many approaches to education and behavior that can be tried to help guide this child, but what ever is chosen needs to be implemented and reinforced both at school and at home to be fully effective.

[Agschmid]

136. Good post, welcome to DU.

[Capt. Obvious]

47. Yes, time to move on

Let's focus our energies on Walmart banning a guy for life for ad matching.

[1awake]

52. If my children were in this school

I would be more worried about the staff's decision making skills than I would be of the 6 year old boy. Disgusted.

[maddezmom]

78. Good.

This makes more sense, IMO.

[seabeyond]

96. wow. you really did a back flip to push your agenda. first couple sentences tell me how anything

serious in conversation left the train station.

bah hahhah

such a losing way to troll

[geek tragedy]

120. jury voted "boys who want to pretend to be girls" was within community standards.

so transphobia is still ok apparently

[seabeyond]

122. i personally thought it would be an easy hide

At Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:25 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

I'm a little confused.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4167649

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

a troll coming into to push an agenda that is nowhere in this conversation.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:36 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Confusing jumble of red herrings and hidden agenda,
but nothing that should be censored from the pages of DU.
The posters here will deal with this one.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Trolly McTroll-troll-troll-trollery-trollerson. Trollerific!
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[gollygee]

123. Note to Juror #2

Saying that someone who is transgender "wants to play dress-up" is worthy of a hide.

[cyberswede]

98. You're not confused at all, but you are transparent.

Referring to transgender people as "boys who want to pretend to be girls" and saying that they will be "ogling the girl's naked bodies in the locker room" is totally offensive. But you knew that.

[uppityperson]

99. You seem to grossly understate your confusion.

[arcane1]

104. An apples-to-orange oversimplification.

But I think you already knew that.

[geek tragedy]

118. Ugh. nt

[geek tragedy]

129. MIRT nap. nt

[uppityperson]

131. Without a hide, it can take a bit to pull the gang together to get banning done. Sure wish the post

was hidden as it goes faster then with MIRTers getting pm notice.

[cyberswede]

135. LOL - and a new slang term is born!

I'm going to use that some time!

[geek tragedy]

130. Thank you MIRT! nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

114. You're a lot more than "a little confused" n/t

[gollygee]

117. A jury apparently voted 3-3 to keep this

I'd like to see the specific results if anyone has them.

[seabeyond]

124. i posted it above.

i thought it an easy hide. maybe i should have been more specific in message

[gollygee]

125. Yeah I just saw it

Ugh.

[gollygee]

119. "wants to play dress up"

Those words should warrant immediate banning IMO.

[geek tragedy]

126. he had me at "boys who want to pretend to be girls" nt

[gollygee]

128. Yep

At least two things that warrant it.

I skimmed and saw the "wants to play dress up" thing and that was it.

[seabeyond]

132. i stopped reading at the bathroom issue. nt

[duffyduff]

101. This was totally botched. A private meeting with the boy's parents, teacher, and

administrator(s) would have been sufficient.

People are trying to make this into a huge "sexual harassment" case when in fact this is about appropriate boundaries.

It doesn't discriminate on the basis of sex, let me tell you.

Respect for boundaries also applies to bullying, to fighting, to name-calling, and so on down the line.

It's about respecting the rights of others.

It's especially a big issue with young children and older students who have moderate to severe disabilities. Try working in a classroom with these type of students. Hitting, spitting, throwing chairs and other furniture at fellow students and staff are commonplace. The girls can be just as violent as the boys.

Just teaching them the "three rules" of classroom behavior--be respectful, be responsible, be safe--is a full-time job in itself.

[seabeyond]

106. the school took a number of steps before reaching this point. the mother was not receptive.

the behavior was not addressed and continued.

[duffyduff]

108. The district botched it. Period. You don't take a draconian action like this and

make a national and international jackass out of yourself. There are many, many other options schools can use besides kicking the kid out. It backfired big time because it was rightly seen as over the top.

I KNOW what school administrators are like. Most administrators are stupid. Most resort to doing these things to cover their asses. They are afraid of lawsuits, so they will overreact.

Respecting the rights of others is one of the things schools teach kids. It should go on in the home, too, but it doesn't always happen.

There are consequences for actions, but these idiot administrators were scared of lawsuits so they overreacted. They made a fixable problem a million times worse.

[seabeyond]

109. i do nto agree. i do not agree it was draconian. they took the normal steps. talk, time out,

school detention, out of school detention.

the first point, talk, it would have been addressed in our home and we would not have needed step 2, 3, or 4.

they did what they had to do to protect the girl that has rights, also.

at the point of putting the kid in a couple day suspension, the parent took notice. isnt that sad.

she went to the media, she told them a lie... a false story, a fabricated event. not the school.

i think the handled it well.

[yodermon]

102. Sick & tired of the sexualizing of childhood, children, and childhood behavior.

Bleah to the whole thing.

[1000words]

103. Glad to see sanity won out in Colorado

Here at DU, however ...

[seabeyond]

107. Here at DU, however ... too many men believe it is merely.... boys will be boys

[historylovr]

105. Time, actually past time, to teach this little boy

what is and is not appropriate behavior. I hope someone else steps in because clearly his mother isn't doing the job. She needs to stop blaming the school and look in the mirror. She needs to stop laughing off his behavior and stop making excuses for him. She needs to stop encouraging him to be disrespectful of other people's boundaries. She needs to sit him down and tell him you don't get in someone's personal space, you don't touch them, if they don't want it. Whether he's 6 years old or 16. Kids who grow up without any boundaries, who have been taught whatever they say and do is all right and who have grown ups covering for them when they do something they shouldn't, aren't going to be responsible adults. I think the mother is doing him no favors.

[DevonRex]

115. Exactly right. Something is wrong when a little boy

has been told to stop over and over again, in school, and he refuses. The little girl must have been very uncomfortable with it. She knew her boundaries had been violated because she had said no repeatedly.

So, why didn't the boy stop? Did his mother tell him it was ok? Or that he had done nothing wrong? What happens when he reaches sexual maturity and still doesn't take no for an answer?

Respecting boundaries begins early, just as you said. Great post.

[LittleBlue]

121. Good. This never made much sense

Those school officials made themselves look foolish.

Maybe they can find some reasonable way to discipline him without sexual harassment claims.

[Rex]

133. IMO, just drop the 'sex' part. Maybe have a district wide program on bullying.

Seems some of the parents could use a course in it to. Make it a priority to teach early, so it does not become a problem later on when they are older and going through puberty. That alone can be confusing enough on its own.

[Calista241]

134. Sexual harassment is a crime

And a 6 year old is legally incapable of committing any crime whatsoever.

Is it a behavioral problem, yep, but it is one that imminently fixable. Writing him up and giving him a suspension for what they did will only set the child part from his peers and cause more problems.

There was a better way to fix this issue.