So, if the 60 Minutes segment on the NSA were true . . .

[markpkessinger]

So, if it is true, as claimed in Sunday night's 60 Minutes segment, that the many hundreds of dollars that have been spent on building the NSA's surveillance apparatus (and are now being spent on the massive data warehouse complex in Utah(), and the billions upon billions of emails, tweets, texts and other online and telephonic communications and other activity collected and stored by the NSA, are for the purpose of monitoring 50-60 people worldwide (as Gen. Keith Alexander claims in the interview), then shouldn't the folks who constantly rant and rave about government "waste, fraud and abuse" be storming the gates of Ft. Meade by now instead of picking on food stamp recipients? Just sayin'.

[kro32]

1. No

Because this new complex is designed to operate in the new technological world that is being created everyday around us. Its specifically designed to work and be upgraded in a way that gives our intelligence community more and better tools to do the job they need to do.

It was a necessary step that was going to have to happen, similar to government installations converting from candlelight to electric power.

The spying fiasco is something I don't think anyone is particularly happy with but that's not really the main reason for this being built.

[grasswire]

2. sorry, your premise is bogus

Untold sums of money have been thrown at mass surveillance with a very poor Return On Investment. You seem to think that more is better, and not just better, but critical. That is a fool's conclusion, and illogical. Especially when our treasury is drained for this twisted thinking, diverting monies from people's needs.

[markpkessinger]

3. +1 nt

[kro32]

4. Well with all due respect

you really have no clue what else they are doing in there.

I will be the first one to admit that they waste far too much money for little return and I'm not justifying it, I'm simply saying that there are times when the government needs to upgrade. I have no idea how poorly or perfectly their old systems operated.

It makes sense that they have to install new systems, at great cost, once in awhile.

[BellaKos]

7. But

The truth is that the government has had an enormous Black Budget for decades, with little oversight from Congress. It's like a government unto itself with a blank check.

With this gigantic compound having been built in Utah, I can't even imagine their capability to spy on people now. And keep in mind, only a very few in Congress are even informed about what this hidden/secret leviathan is actually up to.

Here's a good source:
The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America
by James Bamford (Jul 14, 2009)

[randr]

11. The best upgrade that could happen

would be to upgrade the people we elect. The trilllions of dollars spent on foreign policy and military preparedness in my life have been totally wasted given the fearful world we helped create.
Moral values trump paranoid fantasy.

[Th1onein]

30. They're storing fucking data on Americans. Is that the upgrade we need?

It's a data storage facility. You and I and everyone else knows it. What do they need that much space for? How much data are they storing? They're hoovering up all the data, storing it, and sharing it with other law enforcement agencies.

[Rex]

40. 'I have no idea how poorly or perfectly their old systems operated.'

Then how do you know it needed 'updating' since you admit to having no clue? They didn't just do an OS upgrade, the NSA does not need TIA...that is an authoritarian wet dream and one that would go directly against our supposed all important U.S. Constitution.

[merrily]

5. +1 and rec

[Enthusiast]

13. Bogus bogus bogus!

[merrily]

6. How can you be sure, given that this administration is not transparent, except

for those things they'd love you to know?

[n2doc]

8. Perhaps we should upgrade other things first?

[Scuba]

9. +1 for exposing the real threats that Americans face everyday.

[hootinholler]

14. Absolutely! infrastructure is a far greater ROI. n/t

[fishwax]

34. nice point n/t

[sabrina 1]

19. What utter nonsense, do you really think people are going to buy this? If you are concerned about

national security, which I presume means protecting American lives, it surely isn't just about a piece of land, is it? Then you would start right here at home, first ending the massive number of deaths due to lack of Health Care, approx 44,000 a year, that is more than half a million since 9/11.

You would spend a fraction of what this security apparatus costs to keep them alive instead of claiming 'we can't afford to save American lives'.

You would be outraged at the murder of children, in THEIR CLASSROOMS and HOMES right here in the US, not by some outside 'terrorists', but by our very own home grown terrorists who we never call 'terrorists' because that might draw attention to the terror Americans are subjected to on a scale larger than any foreign terrorists could dream of, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Imagine, an America where people could feel secure about their lives when they get sick. An America that didn't have to worry about sending their children to school, for fear of terror.

I could go on, but can you explain how building a gigantic, 'secret' bunker is going to protect Americans from harm, the REAL threat to them, right here at home?

You'll have to sell that to people who haven't been paying attention to what our Government's priorities are.

[LondonReign2]

25. Thanks for your words of wisdom Keith

[Jackpine Radical]

27. You don't know Jack.

https://www.aclu.org/meet-jack-or-what-government-could-do-all-location-data

[Th1onein]

29. And besides all of this doublespeak, what IS that reason?

[bornskeptic]

10. That is not what Alexander said

He said there are only 50 to 60 people who are considered American persons, meaning who are American citizens or permanent residents or are currently in the US, who are targets of surveillance. There are no doubt hundreds, or more likely thousands, of non-Americans who are targets. The vast majority of NSA assets are engaged in monitoring those people and foreign governments, including North Korea, Iran, China, and Russia.

[Savannahmann]

15. The truth is that they are tracking everyone.

The truth is that the Federal Government including the FBI/NSA/CIA/DHS are all busy gathering as much data as possible. The technology to track has gotten so prevalent that the local cops are not using boxes to capture cell phone data in several cities around our country. We know this, we've seen the program highlights. We know that the FBI is able to turn on webcams, and what do they see most of the time? Teenagers prancing about their bedrooms. The fucking perverts at the FBI are spying on people, including children, and we aren't storming the Hoover building (talk about something named appropriately) for watching teenyboppers parade around their rooms in their underwear.

There are certainly domestic enemies to our nation. The republicans, the Tea baggers, the racist intolerant jackass's that pollute the airways. I maintain the greatest enemy this nation has is the FBI/CIA/NSA/DHS and their perpetual spying on the citizenry. Everyone likes to play the game if I was President I would do... Well if I was the one in charge, the first thing I'd do is shut down the secret police, and put the ACLU in charge of dismantling it once and for all. Then I'd tell Congress to pass a law making the government collection of intelligence information or storing of such information a felony punishable by twenty years in the electric chair.

[sabrina 1]

20. And one of them was the Boston Bomber, yet with all this money and effort and surveillance, they

were completely unaware of what he was up to?

If he says there are only 60 or 70 'targets' then presumably they know who they are right? Let them focus on those people and leave the rest of us alone until they have a thing we used to respect here, 'Probable Cause'. Otherwise they are grossly violating the Constitutional Rights of all Americans.

'Those who would give up privacy for security, deserve neither'. Or words to that effect. I always liked that sentiment. There was something so Democratic about it.

[KurtNYC]

35. They are building a kind of surveillance time machine

They store everything because they can, basically. For most forward looking surveillance (eg following suspects and thwarting their operations) it is way too much data on way too many people.

But when you have something like the Boston bombings and they get one of the people involved, this system allows them to go back and quickly look at all the movements and contacts of that person over the past weeks or year and round up anyone else of interest.

We also know now that some of the surveillance is not used for thwarting terrorist acts or apprehending people but rather for blackmailing and character assassination. They did it to UN officials during the marketing of the Iraq war.

[randr]

12. So far the threat from terrorists etal

pale in comparison to the lives lost due to poor health services and a rabid gun lobby.
The money we spend due to failed foreign policy could do so much more good not only in our country but the entire world.

[sabrina 1]

21. Thank you, I just made the same points above. Children being murdered right here in the US in their

homes and classrooms, and all this surveillance hasn't saved a single life.

[uponit7771]

16. For what is being spent there should NEVER EVER be a terrorist attack or shooting or bombing or

... a bad traffic accident EVER

[randome]

17. Except the NSA is for external, not internal, threats.

And external threats and attacks have not materialized since 9/11.

But yeah, it seems like an ungodly amount of money is spent for very little return.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

18. There's been external attack... I have to bring up the B word but it comes to mind...

.... for the amount of money that is being spent they can key word and AI tons "dots" at the least that could've hinted towards something in that area.

On the other hand

I don't think that much is being spent...

I don't know, there's something about this whole mess that sounds REALLY odd...

SnowGlen are jerks, according to der speigel they released info that could put people in danger and it's hard for me to give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't go the legal route because they wouldn't be heard...

That opens a ton of other slippery slopes in regards to people taking crap in their own hands

[randome]

22. You mean Boston? But that was an internal threat, not extenal. And the ball was clearly dropped.

We need better info about what all this money is going for and I doubt, just like for the military, that these huge sums are truly needed.

You'd think that the people who hold the nation's purse strings would be willing to do their jobs a little better.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

23. How many 'terrorists' have they caught as a result of all this surveillance? Feinstein says we are

MORE danger today than we were a decade ago when all of this surveillance and wars and drone attacks escalated to the obscene monster it is today. That seems like FAILURE to me and a gross misdirection of Tax Dollars and sacrifice of innocent lives.

Terrorism should be a thing of the past considering the Great War On Terror we have been financing and fighting. But according to Feinstein we are in a far more dangerous situation now than ever so according to her, 'we need to keep doing the same things' for ever.

They really must think we are stupid. She didn't even realize that in trying to defend this gross abuse of power, she actually demonstrated what people have been trying to say, it is beneficial ONLY to the war and surveillance 'security' profiteers.

[randome]

26. Feinstein should keep her mouth shut unless she has facts to back up what she says.

We don't know how successful or necessary the NSA is. We should.

But a lot of what the NSA does is warn other countries when they spot something being planned. That doesn't sound sexy enough for a spy agency but they could still give us better statistics so we can decide if the money being spent is worth it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

28. Feinstein is in a far better position to know what she is talking about than anyone here on this

forum due to her position on the Intel Committee. Maybe she just isn't good at logic or something but if you KNOW that we are in 'more danger' today than when we began all these abuses of power, then logic tells you you need to stop doing what has failed so spectacularly and start listening to those who tried to tell you it would never make things better to keep killing people and spying on people.

We don't seem to have particularly 'intelligent' leaders. And that is being kind. Perhaps is more that we don't have leaders who are independent enough to make good decisions, independent of the power of money.

[politichew]

24. I think most people are upset that it didn't confirm their fears.

Which is understandable.

[Th1onein]

31. Our fears have already been confirmed, kiddo. We're upset about the LIES.

[politichew]

36. Not a kid. nt

[Th1onein]

38. Wow! What a fact-filled response to my post!

Keep 'em coming, kiddo!

[politichew]

39. Learn to talk to people with respect and maybe they will humor your paranoia. nt

[Th1onein]

41. Yeah, that's the ticket! I see the respect you got in that post, kiddo!

My paranoia keeps me from trusting it, though.

[laserhaas]

32. To spend a billion dollars plus for a "purported" storage facility - is all the B.S. banter that one

needs to hear - to know that bull disks are being thrown about.

[ksoze]

33. You must have watched a different 60 minutes than the one last night

Because it was never said by anyone that all of NSA was chasing 50-60 people worldwide. As was clarified in an earlier response, the reference is to how many AMERICAN citizens were targeted.

[markpkessinger]

37. Fair enough, but . . .

. . . what, then, is the justification for collecting and storing the internet activity, the content of electronic communications and telephone metadata for virtually every American, both here and abroad?

[Rex]

42. None. There is none. That is why you see all the lame excuses being thrown out there.

Hoping that the next pile of shit sticks to the wall! Which so far none has. It is the predictability that has me laughing so hard at some of these replies.

[jmowreader]

43. US Persons is a subset of People

You can only collect on US Persons with a lot of justification, and metadata isn't prohibited collection because it doesn't identify a US Person.

The Enemy can be collected on with impunity, and they do that.