Does the fact that Christmas Day is a Federal Holiday violate the separation of church and state?

[Nye Bevan]

21 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes. Christmas Day being a Federal Holiday violates the separation of church and state.
	7 (33%)
	No. Christmas Day being a Federal Holiday does not violate the separation of church and state.
	14 (67%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[Demo_Chris]

1. No, but a prayer at the inaugeration does. nt

[brooklynite]

7. How, exactly?

I could live without it, but the inauguration is a program. The only "official" part is the Oath of Office.

[Demo_Chris]

13. Really, is that technically correct? Who knew. But then that's all nonsense...

The entire event is a federal function and calling it a program doesn't change that. It's government money and employees and officials gathered together for an official government function.

[MADem]

16. They're gathered together for the swearing-in, not the singing, praying or speechifying. nt

[Demo_Chris]

17. Using that logic government sponsored prayer is acceptable at ANY function...

The students are gathered for class, or the game, not the prayer, so it's totally okay.

[MADem]

19. If you think religious (and even some who are not) students don't pray before the

big test or the big game, I've a bridge to sell you.

Schools can't have people come in to preach because that would be regarded as teaching--and the audience is a captive one. Children can't walk out, they'd be truants if they did. And they have a right to attend school-sponsored events without having to deal with religious indoctrination.

I think if a President-Elect wants to have this one sing and that one pray, fine and dandy. They don't get paid to do that, they aren't in the "employ" of the government. The people in attendance are there because they want to be there, and the "program," in effect, expresses and reflects the views of the person taking office.

Where I take issue is when "chaplains" are paid to recite prayers to Congress. It's not like the Senators and Representatives don't have access to churches around the Hill, their homes or what-have-you.

Military chaplains have as a job the duty to ensure the "free exercise" of religion. Their job isn't to hold services so much as make sure that service personnel have access to religion if they want it. They very often do hold services, but that's not their main job. People are often surprised to learn this.

I am of the view that they can use enlisted personnel to "facilitate" access to religion (call up the different churches, mosques, etc. and run buses to the houses of worship, for example, or work with contracting personnel to procure "contract chaplains" on short term assignments). Failing that, they should get rid of chaplain rank, and give them 0-1 to 0-4 pay based on longevity and kick 'em out at 20 with a pension. There are too many chaplains who are more interested in chasing rank than they are doing "God's work."

[MADem]

22. You missed the voluntary element and the fact that the

POTUS-elect is the host of the shindig. No one is FORCING you to watch or attend the swearing in. It's required by law that he or she do it, and it is televised because people want to see it. It is a public event of interest so the POTUS-elect usually does it in front of a large crowd. Everything else surrounding it, though, is bullshit. The wheels of government grind on without Beyonce singing or the Marine Band playing.

The students, as I said, can't leave. They are there to receive information, the teachers/adults are there to impart it. Their athletic programs are paid for by the taxpayers. Inaugurations are largely funded by donors.

Also, benedictions/invocations at Inaugurations/Changes of Command have the force of tradition, like "In God We Trust" on money. In recent years, they've gotten more non-denominational, I've noticed.

They've also gotten around it in other ways. See: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20120508-lisd-student-prayer-ok-but-benedictions-invocations-out-at-graduations.ece

But there's this, that just happened last month--and we'll get their take on this next year sometime, I'm guessing.

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/06/243537904/after-two-decades-supreme-court-takes-up-public-prayer-again

The Supreme Court ruling will shift this discussion, certainly. The pro-prayer people are assuming they'll come down on the side of tradition, at a minimum. We'll see.


I just realized I answered you twice!!! Sorry!

[Demo_Chris]

23. No problem, I wasn't ignoring you...

I thought you made an excellent argument so I thought I would leave you with that as the last word.

[MADem]

25. I spaced out, to be honest--I thought when I read your comments

(twice, at separate times) that you were two different people!

I only realized my error when I had already posted!!

[cleanhippie]

28. You seem to ignore the "public funding" of the event.

It's an event for the Nation, not for a person

[MADem]

34. A huge amount of that shindig is DONATED. You missed that part.

It's a PPP, public private partnership.

Do you think the taxpayers pay for the marching band from Bumweasel, South Dakota to come to DC, stay in a hotel, and march in the inaugural parade? Do you think that the "gubmint" pays for Beyonce or Aretha to sing?

No additional expenditures are incurred if the POTUS decides that he or she wants someone to stand up on the podium -- free of charge -- and say a little prayer for him or her. The stage would be there ANYWAY. The mic would be there ANYWAY. The chairs for his or her invited guests would be there ANYWAY.

The POTUS can invite whom he or she pleases, and if s/he wants a guest to stand up and say a few words, even if they are about GAWD, no additional expenditure is incurred.

The part that is an event for the nation, subject to law, is the swearing in. Everything else is a "nice to have." Or nice to not have, depending on POV.

You don't get to have "Freedom from Beyonce" or "Freedom from Kelly Clarkson" either. I think we could skip the poetry and not miss a beat, but I'm not in charge of the program.

The bottom line is, the way the event is constructed is a reflection of the POTUS taking the oath. Obviously, since most of the nation voted for the person, they are unlikely to criticize his or her selections overmuch. You're just gonna have to get up and go pee, or make a sandwich, during the parts you don't like. Or switch to another network for a minute or two.

[cleanhippie]

27. How much public money is spent on that ceremony?

It's a ceremony it the nation, not for a person.

[brooklynite]

36. Actually, not that much...

Most of the cost is privately raised and covered by the Inaugural Committee.

[HERVEPA]

2. Yes, but it's violated all over the place anyhow.

[Drale]

3. As far as I know

if you need a day off for a religious holiday and your a federal employee its almost 100% guaranteed that you will get it off, plus you get Christmas off. I think that's a pretty good deal.

[Lint Head]

4. It is also a holiday for everyone else who are not in the Federal Government.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. If Christmas was viewed as exclusively a Christian religious holiday - there would be a point to

saying that. But as we all know - in America and a good deal of the world - Christmas is celebrated and the greeting "Merry Christmas" is made by and to people of any and no faiths. The purpose of the First Amendment was not to have government suppress religious belief. It was to protect the right to religious belief of any sorts while prohibiting a state sponsored religion.

[Sheepshank]

6. For Santa loving athiests....there's nothing there to separate. Day off to be with the fam, woo hoo

[dipsydoodle]

8. Has no bearing on me being UK

which following the usual pattern will largely shut down 23rd December to 2nd January - maybe even longer before and after.

It would however follow that the solution for the US to avoid any conflict would be for it stop being a Federal Holiday given that Christmas Day is Christmas Day. I'm sure that would go down well.

[jberryhill]

9. No, the Supreme Court has held that Christmas is a secular holiday

If anyone mentions a religion in the onslaught of TV commercials about Christmas, do let us know.

[JoePhilly]

10. Christ was effectively dropped from Christmas a long time ago.

Sure, some people celebrate Christ's birth on that day, but his real birthday is unknown, and more likely in June or July anyway.

Plus, much of the celebration of Christmas comes from Pagan rituals that pre-date Christ or Christmas.

[JI7]

11. no, and it's convenient anyways because most would want the day off

and many who are not religious use those holidays as a time to get together with others also.

[Bad Thoughts]

12. How would people feel about having the last Monday off ...

... in lieu of December 25? If the day is truly secular, this ought to be a great solution that would give a consistent 3-day weekend, or if well timed, four-day.

[FarCenter]

14. It is derived from the Roman Saturnalia

I have no problem with a midwinter solstice holiday.

As a child, I attended actual religious services about Jesus birth -- they were nothing like Christmas.

[pipoman]

15. Being a federal holiday

Doesn't mean anything but that the federal government acknowledges that vast numbers of citizens celebrate it as a holiday which would leave both government and business short handed if it weren't a federal holiday. It further obligates some business to holiday compensation.

[leftyohiolib]

18. it is as much as putting a nativity scene on public lands but everyone wants a day off so

let the rationalizations fly

[cleanhippie]

29. +1

[LanternWaste]

20. I think Bridenbaugh v. O'Bannon allows for the federal and local governments to give time off withou

I think Bridenbaugh v. O'Bannon allows for the federal and local governments to give time off without it being a religious issue.

[grahamhgreen]

21. Obvious war on my vacation time post!

[B Calm]

24. Christmas is an old Pagan Holiday.

[NoOneMan]

26. Jesus isn't the reason for the season

Its not a Christian holiday. Its also a Pagan holiday and an atheist holiday. In fact, its a human holiday.

What better way to fight off SAD and brighten up the dimmest days of the year, than with lights, music and festivals? Humans need to be cheery on these winter days--the propensity to celebrate during this time could even be an evolutionary trait, encoded right into our DNA.

[sibelian]

30. I voted Yes but changed my mind.

I don't think it makes much sense to call it a violation of the separation of Church and State when that principle is enacted to avoid undue influence over state matters by religious organisations. I'm not sure you could say that legislating around a widely observed religious holiday counts as undue influence. It's not like people are required to observe Christmas. Some people choose to work over the Christmas holidays.

So while you might argue that it contravenes the letter of the law, I can't see that it contravenes the spirit of the law.

[magical thyme]

31. Christmas has long been the biggest secular consumerist salesy holiday of the year nt

[Inkfreak]

32. Why is there no 'I Like To Vote' option?

It's my go-to answer when I see polls.

[sibelian]

33. There are multiple views on where Christmas comes from...

Solstice festivals were ubiquitous in the ancient world.

One of the most popular explanations for the date of 25th December, being also the date of the winter solstice in the Julian (Roman) calendar, is that there was already a cult around "Sol Invictus" who was the Roman sun god, called the "unconquered sun" and, depending on who you believe, they held a festival on 25th December celebrating his rebirth.

There are a couple of views below:

Both the sun and Christ were said to be born anew on December 25. But while the solar associations with the birth of Christ created powerful metaphors, the surviving evidence does not support such a direct association with the Roman solar festivals. The earliest documentary evidence for the feast of Christmas makes no mention of the coincidence with the winter solstice. Thomas Talley has shown that, although the Emperor Aurelian's dedication of a temple to the sun god in the Campus Martius (C.E. 274) probably took place on the 'Birthday of the Invincible Sun' on December 25, the cult of the sun in pagan Rome ironically did not celebrate the winter solstice nor any of the other quarter-tense days, as one might expect. The origins of Christmas, then, may not be expressly rooted in the Roman festival

Michael Alan Anderson, Symbols of Saints (ProQuest 2008 ISBN 978-0-54956551-2), pp. 45-46

Also:

The idea that Christians chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25 December because this was the date of an already existing festival of the Sol Invictus was expressed in an annotation to a manuscript of a work by 12th-century Syrian bishop Jacob Bar-Salibi. The scribe who added it wrote: "It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day."

(cited in Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries, Ramsay MacMullen. Yale:1997, p. 155)

Both of the above are from the wikipedia article on Sol Invictus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

So I guess we either believe Jacob or Michael. Given that Jacob was 12th century and slightly closer to the time (although still over 1000 years away), we might lend him the credence, but still...

One of the main objections to the idea that Christmas is a Christianised version of a pagan festival stems from the idea that the solstice date is incidental, an accident, as the Annunciation (the angel telling Mary that she's a holy rape victim) is supposed to have taken place exactly nine months earlier - at the Spring Equinox, so OBVIOUSLY Jesus must have been born nine months later, so it HAD to be the winter solstice and Saturnalia and the (disputed) festival of the rebirth of Sol Invictus is a coincidence. Which is kind of dumb, because the Spring Equinox is another pagan festival anyway.

In any case, it's pretty much a moot point. Christmas is obviously pagan and has been since the year dot, Christmas trees, yule logs, the fact that it's a family feast rather than solely a church service like baptism or confirmation...

[uppityperson]

35. No more than New Yrs Day or Columbus Day do.

[DirkGently]

37. A day off transcends religion.

... and do does "Christmas" for that matter. It's effectively The Big Secular Winter Holiday at this point.

Christmas for Christians. Yule for the Pagans, Let's Have a Day Off and eat and maybe give some gifts for anyone else so inclined.

I think you'd have to buy into the Fox News perspective that this giant cultural thing we always have in the winter belongs exclusively to one religious sect to see it as a government intrusion into religions freedom.

And even then, it's a day off. I don't think a day off coinciding with any religious holiday is government-enforced religion.

I can see an argument that the official U.S. Government Day off have some religiously neutral name, but that would be engender more culture war thrashing than it's worth in my opinion.

[The Straight Story]

38. What about thanksgiving?

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

William H. Seward,
Secretary of State

[LostOne4Ever]

39. Before the early church lied about the birth date of christ in order to steal the day

There were several holidays on and around Dec 25 celebrating the winter solstice.

Winter solstice is a secular event, ipso facto there is a legitimate argument that it is a cultural/secular holiday.

[LanternWaste]

40. Less "stealing a holiday" and more the typical and historical process of 'acculturation'.

Less "stealing a holiday" and more the typical and historical process of 'acculturation'. A very common means by which all cultures share aspects of themselves with other near-by cultures.

[oneshooter]

41. They are also off on Sundays,

Easter, and other religious holidays. They need to work on Sundays and all religious holidays.

[Major Nikon]

42. Easter is not a federal holiday

Christmas is the only federal holiday that's remotely religious. Civilian federal employees that have to work on Sunday get paid extra, but military members do not.

[CreekDog]

43. stop disrupting

gettin old

[Nye Bevan]

46. Damn. I forgot to check that this poll was acceptable to you before posting it.

Sorry about that.

[Agschmid]

44. ...

[BlueCheese]

45. Where I grew up, we got Jewish holidays off school.

If everybody got each other's religious holidays off, I think we'd all become more welcoming of other religions.

[rucky]

47. Nah. Everybody gets the day off - not just Christian federal employees

[Coyotl]

48. I demand a holiday for Festivus.

With lots of beer drinking

[quaker bill]

49. When non-christians stop celebrating it.