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WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:19 PM Dec 2013

"Men's Rights" and "Revenge Porn" Sites Seethe With Anger Over Women's Autonomy

"Men's Rights" and "Revenge Porn" Sites Seethe With Anger Over Women's Autonomy
By Amanda Marcotte
RH Reality Check

Wednesday 18 December 2013

In many ways, the argument that women should be fully equal to men has won in the public discourse. Sure, a lot of people still fight against equality, but they often pretend that it’s about something else—fetal life, religious liberty, women’s “choice” to make less money—because even they know openly stating the belief that women are a subclass of people put here to serve men tends not to go over very well with a general audience. Women’s education rates and income are going up. Violence against women is going down. The attacks on reproductive rights are escalating, but that’s in part in response to the fact that women themselves, especially younger women, are increasingly comfortable with the belief that they are the decider when it comes to what happens to their uterus.

However, there’s one growing trend that, while it’s hard to really get an idea of its size, should be a cause for concern: The number of men online creating communities dedicated to advancing the plain old, unvarnished misogynist belief that men deserve to control women. On “men’s rights” forums and “revenge porn” sites, groups of men are gathering together to find reinforcement for the plain old abusive belief that women who make their own choices about who to sleep with and who to marry are evil, and that allowing women this most basic of freedom is somehow oppressive to men. That there are many men who feel this way is no big surprise, particularly to anyone who knows the extent of domestic violence in this country, violence that is usually rooted in just this belief about male entitlement over women’s bodies. But the fact that they have found each other online and are pumping each other up and feeling more and more empowered by the minute in their ludicrous beliefs should be a major cause for concern.

Two stories from this week show exactly how true it is that these communities are about crafting the belief that women “oppress” men by wanting to be the masters of our own bodies instead of ceding that control over to men. In California, Attorney General Kamala Harris announced the arrest of Kevin Bollaert, who is being hit with 31 charges of conspiracy, identity theft, and extortion for running a “revenge porn” site. “Revenge porn” is a nasty little subset of the Internet where men take naked pictures they usually obtained during the course of a consensual relationship, and they post them against a woman’s will in order to humiliate and harass her. Often, as was the case with Bollaert’s site, the woman’s name, location, and social media information is also provided so that the men who use the site can more effectively harass her.

The rest: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/20701-mens-rights-and-revenge-porn-sites-seethe-with-anger-over-womens-autonomy
158 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Men's Rights" and "Revenge Porn" Sites Seethe With Anger Over Women's Autonomy (Original Post) WilliamPitt Dec 2013 OP
From 2000 to present the single population has gone from 45 to 50 % FarCenter Dec 2013 #1
How is that related to the OP? Squinch Dec 2013 #104
People are marrying later and having more relationships FarCenter Dec 2013 #106
Which explains men's anger over women's autonomy? Then why don't women Squinch Dec 2013 #107
Revenge Website ShesAHomewrecker.com Shames Accused Mistresses But Not Cheating Husbands FarCenter Dec 2013 #112
I don't know of any. Revenge porn, though, is a pretty well known phenomenon. Squinch Dec 2013 #113
"...if you look hard enough." But the majority of these sites, and the most popular, target women. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #114
ever the contrarian CreekDog Dec 2013 #115
I did a search, and all I found where women tried to exact revenge on the net Squinch Dec 2013 #136
Oh, so now Boston sports fan wants to hump the Dolphins bandwagon?? Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #2
It is not by choice. WilliamPitt Dec 2013 #3
That's the old one. Yavin4 Dec 2013 #48
Now you've asked for it... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #4
Why don't you keep track of that? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #36
heh... Out comes a 'mens' Group regular Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #43
That's funny, I don't see anyone supporting revenge porn or MRA in this thread.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #45
Nope... No 'mens Group regulars here... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #47
Yup, OJ, I know your MO ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #49
It is very interesting... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #51
Your imagination is what's interesting ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #54
I'll tell you whats more interesting... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #58
So no thoughts on the OP? HappyMe Dec 2013 #65
So....you're conceding your second post was basically bullshit? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #66
No one defending a "Totally Hawt Celeb" thread either... LanternWaste Dec 2013 #59
If I had a dime for every time it's mentioned.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #70
I think it's funny that Men's Group fans almost always deny or distract when they are identified BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #86
I do enjoy debating the "regulars." And there actually is some worthwhile stuff posted there. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #116
I can't remember what names were obviously dudes with "issues" BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #144
I'm a member of the Men's Group ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #142
I eas just noting a general pattern I've seen in the DU men's group BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #145
Oh, they're here in full force alright, liberalhistorian Dec 2013 #155
Eek! Squinch Dec 2013 #105
As far as I can tell "men's rights" is a very broad category that covers lots of things, redgreenandblue Dec 2013 #5
To be fair, the rank-and-file MRA started years ago with legit concerns Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #94
I recommend reading some of the MRA sites. They say they are for the things you mention, Squinch Dec 2013 #108
I only read the Wiki article about them.... redgreenandblue Dec 2013 #146
If they truly devoted their lives to "men's issues" I think they could accomplish some worthwhile nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #117
why say most...why not all of them Supersedeas Dec 2013 #137
Partly because I'm wary of huge generalizations. But yes, the contemporary "Men's Rights" Movement nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #139
Maybe I'm naive, but I have no idea what purpose men's rights groups serve. Initech Dec 2013 #6
You say you have no idea and then make a proclamation Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #12
So what's your position on men's rights groups? NuclearDem Dec 2013 #13
As I've stated elsewhere in this thread Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #23
OK I took that part out. Initech Dec 2013 #16
From what I've seen, it's another forum for lower and middle class white men to rage against Chakab Dec 2013 #53
Because they're both about "getting back at" women for mostly imagined offenses. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #118
but I have no idea what purpose men's rights groups serve. AlbertCat Dec 2013 #74
I know what you mean...it's kind of like a White People's Rights group, or something. whathehell Dec 2013 #103
Maybe they can join forces with the "Save Prince Charles of England" group. Squinch Dec 2013 #134
LOL! whathehell Dec 2013 #140
I thought your unedited post made perfect sense. Squinch Dec 2013 #109
It would appear that a good many people who produce erotica are applauding GoneOffShore Dec 2013 #7
Men are gathering on internet sites? How ever can we put a stop to this??? Romulox Dec 2013 #8
We cannot. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #46
Will, if you really want to see the rage intaglio Dec 2013 #9
Great site, if you ask me. AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #29
That is a great site. Big ups to Dave Futrelle! nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #119
I don't have a problem with men advocating for certain issues quinnox Dec 2013 #10
I bet you also don't get why white guys can't use the N-word, since geek tragedy Dec 2013 #15
Duh, no, you are projecting quinnox Dec 2013 #17
I understand, just like I understand that geek tragedy Dec 2013 #18
As a male 15 years in the profession, I have never seen this joeglow3 Dec 2013 #67
So you would be shocked, shocked! to find networking occurring at an exclusive geek tragedy Dec 2013 #79
It happens all the time. redqueen Dec 2013 #126
works that way in law too nt geek tragedy Dec 2013 #129
Gender equality and the situation of African Americans are hardly similar topics. redgreenandblue Dec 2013 #19
"Gender is a much more complex topic than race." Oh, I have just GOT to hear about this Number23 Dec 2013 #143
Ok: redgreenandblue Dec 2013 #147
Hate to break it to you, but there are white guys on here who think it's fine for them to use it. redqueen Dec 2013 #20
My imagination can't conjure stupidity the way reality does, nt geek tragedy Dec 2013 #21
There should be something analagous to Godwin's law that this post is exemplary of. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #82
the thread was about clearly abusive misogyny, and the person geek tragedy Dec 2013 #85
And your immediate reaction was about racism. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #99
one cannot threadjack a threadjack nt geek tragedy Dec 2013 #100
LOL n/t bitchkitty Dec 2013 #153
Because business was done in the confines of "men's clubs" where women were excluded... 1monster Dec 2013 #37
OK. But that was then. This is the 21st century now quinnox Dec 2013 #42
Yeah. Just like we don't have racism any more according to the Supreme Court... 1monster Dec 2013 #50
So, are we still living in the 1950s then? quinnox Dec 2013 #60
Not so much. MadrasT Dec 2013 #89
Hmm... Orrex Dec 2013 #52
Well, do you allow women in your locker room? I'm not familiar with Lucille Roberts. 1monster Dec 2013 #55
The claim was that a man would be allowed to join a women's club Orrex Dec 2013 #61
How is Curves a club? Is World Gym a club? How 'bout Planet Fitness? 1monster Dec 2013 #69
Curves self-identifies as a club. Orrex Dec 2013 #78
Club 1monster Dec 2013 #83
Not incensed at all. Why do you make that accusation? Orrex Dec 2013 #87
Perhaps the fact that you keep challenging me on the subject... 1monster Dec 2013 #90
So... Replying to your posts is "challenging" you? Okay. Orrex Dec 2013 #98
oh yeah, particularly with that attitude... BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #81
Who are you addressing? Orrex Dec 2013 #84
you. BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #88
Ah. I can see how it came across that way, despite my intent. Orrex Dec 2013 #91
ah. very good then. BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #93
It's easy to explain... CSStrowbridge Dec 2013 #62
Ok, but haven't we made some progress from the 1950s? quinnox Dec 2013 #64
if men's groups focused on what you suggest, there would be no problem. BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #75
Ok, I confess I have never been to MRA websites so quinnox Dec 2013 #96
... BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #102
+1 nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #120
rec. MerryBlooms Dec 2013 #138
Directly equating men's rights sites with revenge porn is bullshit Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #11
Consider the source. politichew Dec 2013 #25
Men's rights groups are NOT about unfair divorces. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #30
You are stereotyping Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #32
No, I'm not. That's true of every men's rights group I have ever seen. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #41
Please check out the articles I linked in post 24 redqueen Dec 2013 #44
I felt that the OP was referring to the sicko Men's Rights groups. riqster Dec 2013 #33
When I was going through a divorce, a number of groups were very helpful. riqster Dec 2013 #71
I love Amanda Marcotte. Spot on. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #14
I don't know why a woman would allow anyon to take nude photos of her Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #22
People should pay attention to them. They're dangerous. redqueen Dec 2013 #24
You're right. They are dangerous, sick individuals. Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #26
"some women take pictures of themselves." quinnox Dec 2013 #31
... redqueen Dec 2013 #35
lol quinnox Dec 2013 #39
The author of another recent article on this found that of the group she talked to... JHB Dec 2013 #28
Don't blame the victims. hunter Dec 2013 #130
Encouraging measures to protect oneself in this unsafe world is "blaming the victim?" nt Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #154
"Protect oneself" from what? hunter Dec 2013 #156
Protect oneself from what? You said it yourself just now... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #157
Is there a difference between these statements: hunter Dec 2013 #158
I'll take your word for it. Deep13 Dec 2013 #27
There are law firms advertising that they only represent men in divorces Gothmog Dec 2013 #34
Women pay child support in Texas, and Texas doesn't have "alimony". Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2013 #92
I am a transactional lawyer Gothmog Dec 2013 #101
Yep. All those firms want to do is keep men from having to pay child support, Sheldon Cooper Dec 2013 #121
These lawyers have to rely on this advertising gimmick because they are not top tier Gothmog Dec 2013 #127
What I don't get is.... BrainDrain Dec 2013 #38
What I don't get is why anyone thinks women have TIME to do that Demeter Dec 2013 #57
Do you understand that there is a difference between a) discussing your breakup with your friends Squinch Dec 2013 #110
This is not about "making fun of and deriding" people. This is about sexually humiliating them. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #122
Bingo.... BrainDrain Dec 2013 #148
Revenge Porn... TommyCelt Dec 2013 #40
So... Glassunion Dec 2013 #56
I imagine the flames of the burning rage and antagonism these men have toward autonomous women Zorra Dec 2013 #63
Thank you for posting this, it's a good and relatively mild assessment Warpy Dec 2013 #68
Thanks for the perspective. I wasn't around then but I pretty much agree. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #123
"Men's Rights" and "Revenge Porn" Sites AlbertCat Dec 2013 #72
Quantity is not the only determiner of efficacy. riqster Dec 2013 #73
Enough to make life miserable for quite a few women. Ask anyone who's been targeted by these creeps. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #124
Enough to make life miserable for quite a few women. AlbertCat Dec 2013 #149
I agree totally. This shit is "Idiocracy" incarnate as far as I'm concerned. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #151
So the conclusion is that a huge chunk of the male population has not progressed... MANative Dec 2013 #76
Yep, lots of men still think that "men deserve to control women". nt raccoon Dec 2013 #77
I think that the revenge thing and the HappyMe Dec 2013 #80
I think revenge porn and "kooky men's rights" groups' hatred of women come from the same impulse. Squinch Dec 2013 #135
We can all agree that men deserve rights too, I hope. grahamhgreen Dec 2013 #95
Heh, I hope so too... quinnox Dec 2013 #97
We can all agree that they already have them, and exercise them, I hope. Squinch Dec 2013 #111
Of course. Who ever said otherwise? nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #125
These groups are dangerous. redqueen Dec 2013 #128
both women and men are known for doing Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #131
What's interesting about Men's "Rights" groups are that they are all about white men... madinmaryland Dec 2013 #132
Well I have seen anger among them that feminists are not spending Squinch Dec 2013 #133
Most MRA's basically *are* Teabaggers and Freepers, when you get down to it... nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #150
I'm the child of a Wild West matriarchal society and I married into one. hunter Dec 2013 #141
These guys are insecure and misguided bluestateguy Dec 2013 #152
 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
1. From 2000 to present the single population has gone from 45 to 50 %
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:24 PM
Dec 2013
The Growing Single Population Is Exaggerating The Extent Of Inequality In America

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/single-people-and-income-inequality-2013-12

Divorced singles are constant, but never married is growing.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
107. Which explains men's anger over women's autonomy? Then why don't women
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:08 PM
Dec 2013

have more anger over men's autonomy?

There's an implicit assumption in that.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
112. Revenge Website ShesAHomewrecker.com Shames Accused Mistresses But Not Cheating Husbands
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:35 PM
Dec 2013
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/revenge-website-shesahomewrecker-shames-alleged-mistresses-cheating-husbands/story?id=20822156

Meet Lulu: An App That Lets Girls Rate Guys Anonymously

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/22/meet-lulu-an-app-that-lets-girls-rate-guys-anonymously.html

There's probably a site that lets women post pictures of their ex-boyfriend's junk if you look hard enough.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
114. "...if you look hard enough." But the majority of these sites, and the most popular, target women.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:50 PM
Dec 2013

And you can post what you want, no skin off of me, but your comments do seem a bit off-topic.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
136. I did a search, and all I found where women tried to exact revenge on the net
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:25 PM
Dec 2013

was that "she's a homewrecker" site. Nothing about women taking revenge against men. Also nothing about naked photos, and the New York "she's a homewrecker" site had only been used by 5 misguided women.

The "she's a homewrecker" site seems to me to be tailored to women who have bought into the idea of the revenge porn sites, namely that men are not culpable, and only women can possibly be at fault. They are trying to shame the women their husbands chose to cheat with. The retaliation focuses on the woman, not the man.

I don't agree with the idea of sleeping with a married man, but this is typical of women who have bought into the mindset of men who don't like women. These five women should be angry first at the husband who betrayed them.

Ohio Joe

(21,755 posts)
4. Now you've asked for it...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:56 PM
Dec 2013

Our very own MRA... Boys.. 'Mens' group will be out in force to let you know you are just another rad fem oppressing them.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
36. Why don't you keep track of that?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:14 PM
Dec 2013

I'm sure you'll have proof and present it to the class at the end of the day, right?

Ohio Joe

(21,755 posts)
43. heh... Out comes a 'mens' Group regular
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:22 PM
Dec 2013

But all one need do is read the thread, read the words and take a glance at some peoples favorite Group Thanks for coming out

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
45. That's funny, I don't see anyone supporting revenge porn or MRA in this thread....
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:26 PM
Dec 2013

....and the closest person to defending "Men's Rights" in this threads favorite group is the Obama group.

Listen, you really better up your game or pass what you're smoking.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
54. Your imagination is what's interesting
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:47 PM
Dec 2013

I challenge you....Who exactly in this thread, other than me (who is only taking note that you accused said DU group of supporting MRA and revenge porn) has the Men's Group listed as their favorite group as specified in your second post?

Ohio Joe

(21,755 posts)
58. I'll tell you whats more interesting...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:54 PM
Dec 2013

None of the Mens Group posters that get banned from DU ever got banned from the Mens Group... Their posts were considered just fine... Fascinating.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
66. So....you're conceding your second post was basically bullshit?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:12 PM
Dec 2013

Right....

Meanwhile there are plenty of other groups on DU who've had all sorts of dumb shit on a wide range of topics from gender issues to LGBT to religion to the Middle East said by their members that had to get taken out in the trash elsewhere. I'm not going to name names of course, but people know who they are....

You, however, have a very broad meaning as to whom is a "men's group regular". Right here in this thread you demonstrated that. Even with a verifiable system of checking one's profile which you offered up as your proof, you showed you were really just pulling stuff from your rear end.

Be sure to pick up what's left of your credibility on this topic on the way out. And have a nice day.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
59. No one defending a "Totally Hawt Celeb" thread either...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:56 PM
Dec 2013

No one defending a "Totally Hawt Celeb" thread either...

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
86. I think it's funny that Men's Group fans almost always deny or distract when they are identified
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:47 PM
Dec 2013

as members of that group.

Like the way many fux spews fans deny or distract when asked if they watch fux spews.

You'd think if either were worthy groups, their members wouldn't act like they had something to hide.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
116. I do enjoy debating the "regulars." And there actually is some worthwhile stuff posted there.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:59 PM
Dec 2013

But other posts/threads from the Men Group - quite a few of them - really aren't becoming of a site like DU. Though at least the worst of the worst (*cough*galileoreloaded*cough*) have been shown the door.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
144. I can't remember what names were obviously dudes with "issues"
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:47 PM
Dec 2013


Never sorry to see them go. As you say, they're unbecoming to the DU community.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
142. I'm a member of the Men's Group
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:36 PM
Dec 2013

And I don't support MRA, revenge porn, rape porn or whatever else the group is being accused of supporting today. There's nothing to hide at all. I just don't stand for made up bullshit cheap shots.

What I find funny is that any low count post troll who spews something misogynistic and is TOS'd is immediately identified by certain folks as a "Men's Group Regular" whether it's true or not.

Anything else?

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
145. I eas just noting a general pattern I've seen in the DU men's group
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 12:21 AM
Dec 2013

And I specifically stated that the DU men's group does NOT demonstrate the revenge porn/ugly hatred that I've seen elsewhere on the internet.

I was very clear about what I generally see when I've had a look at the men's group here.

You're getting defensive and hysterical.

liberalhistorian

(20,818 posts)
155. Oh, they're here in full force alright,
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
Dec 2013

openly claiming that child support is "male enslavement", showing up on every thread dealing with domestic violence to claim that men suffer just as much from it and considering any mention of violence or action against women to be an affront to men if it doesn't include the disclaimer that men are equally powerless and suffer just as much. And don't even get me started on their posts on all of the rape threads. But we awful, evil women are the ones "oppressing" the poor, powerless, helpless men. Yeah, right.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
5. As far as I can tell "men's rights" is a very broad category that covers lots of things,
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:59 PM
Dec 2013

some of which are legitimate issues (for instance fairness in child custody), and some of which are not (e.g. "feminization" of education). Also, I think part of it is driven by people with legitimate grievances who are venting and who are going overboard in doing so (which is not unheard of in women's groups as well). Generally, I think when people use the argument "this is MRA" instead of arguing about the issue at hand, often this is just an attempt to stifle a discussion about a topic that may be of some relevance.

I think below the rhetoric MRAs and Feminists want much of the same things. For instance, as far as I understand the woman's rights movment has indeed worked to equalize the life expectancies of the genders.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
94. To be fair, the rank-and-file MRA started years ago with legit concerns
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:10 PM
Dec 2013

most notably legal child custody/divorce issues, which at one time (maybe still is) was horribly slanted in favor of the woman...

Sadly, the loud and crazy voices eventually drowned everyone else out it got co-opted into something much, much uglier...All you have to do is take a quick glance at any of the top 20 MRA sites and blogs...

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
108. I recommend reading some of the MRA sites. They say they are for the things you mention,
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:12 PM
Dec 2013

but a little reading of their sites proves differently. They are just hate groups.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
146. I only read the Wiki article about them....
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:07 AM
Dec 2013

... so going to an actual site might be enlightening

I wouldn't know where to find one though.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
117. If they truly devoted their lives to "men's issues" I think they could accomplish some worthwhile
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:01 PM
Dec 2013

things. But most of them, to be frank, care far less about helping men and boys than about hurting and punishing women.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
139. Partly because I'm wary of huge generalizations. But yes, the contemporary "Men's Rights" Movement
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:02 PM
Dec 2013

does more or less consist, at its base, of reactionary misogynists.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
23. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:47 PM
Dec 2013

You cannot broad brush all men's rights groups as bitter misogynists.

There are some men who have genuine concerns about their rights in certain settings.

Although I don't belong to any of these groups, I can support their desire to do so as long as they are talking about things honestly and not just bashing equality for women.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
53. From what I've seen, it's another forum for lower and middle class white men to rage against
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:47 PM
Dec 2013

the evolution of society regarding social issues over the past half century or so. Most of it is pure idiocy. Although, I do think that some of them have a point about men being placed a serious disadvantage in some instances in divorce proceedings.

That being said, I'm not sure why these groups are being conflated with revenge porn in this article.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
118. Because they're both about "getting back at" women for mostly imagined offenses.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:03 PM
Dec 2013

That, I think, is the reason for the conflation.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
74. but I have no idea what purpose men's rights groups serve.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:19 PM
Dec 2013

So guys can...like...y'know....hook up?

GoneOffShore

(17,339 posts)
7. It would appear that a good many people who produce erotica are applauding
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:03 PM
Dec 2013

Bollert's arrest.

Violet Blue mentioned it on her blog - Tinynibbles

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
9. Will, if you really want to see the rage
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:07 PM
Dec 2013

try visiting David Futrelle's site the MRA/PUA monitor Man Boobz - Misogyny. I mock it
Top headlines currently

Men’s Rights Redditors flood Occidental College’s online rape reporting form with false accusations
Roosh V’s Return of Kings blog offers sex tips inspired by prison rape
Red Piller: Unless white women start “sh*tting out” more babies, western civilization is doomed
Video game defenders hold the line against eeeevil women with incoherent rage, obscene phone calls
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
29. Great site, if you ask me.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

Be warned, though, some of the regulars are a tad sensitive sometimes, to various things. Nice folks overall, but some may overreact just a tad if you happen to slip up; just try to apologize and try to keep their feelings in mind for future reference.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
10. I don't have a problem with men advocating for certain issues
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:08 PM
Dec 2013

I also don't see why men can't have their own "clubs", WTF is wrong with that?! Women and many other groups have clubs and organizations built for them. Why is it so wrong for men to have the same?? I never understood the logic behind this, except for wacky over the top political correctness.

My post is a comment in general on men and clubs, and not on the OPs specific topic.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
18. I understand, just like I understand that
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:21 PM
Dec 2013

men's social clubs have been used for business dealings for centuries, and that also for centuries the board room was a men's only club. And that 'wacky political correctness' is rarely invoked by those committed to social equality for women.

Not that men's only clubs were the subject of the OP, of course.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
67. As a male 15 years in the profession, I have never seen this
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:14 PM
Dec 2013

Yet it is accepted as fact. I have never seen business dealings taking place on the golf course. I have never seen it in other exclusive clubs.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
79. So you would be shocked, shocked! to find networking occurring at an exclusive
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:36 PM
Dec 2013

social/country club?

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
126. It happens all the time.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:26 PM
Dec 2013

Many of the newer VPs I work with will learn to golf even if they have no interest, because that's where so many clients enjoy being schmoozed.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
19. Gender equality and the situation of African Americans are hardly similar topics.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:23 PM
Dec 2013

Gender is a much more complex topic than race.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
147. Ok:
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:20 AM
Dec 2013

The situation of African Americans in the USA is a pretty clear cut thing: You had one group who historically oppressed the other and the current situation (economic disempowerment of African Americans) is a direct result of that.

In the case of gender, it is generally true that historically there existed clearly defined gender roles, which could be and often were harmful to both genders. However, that those roles implied a clear defined oppression of one group by another I think is questionable.

While I think that any movement that seeks to dissolve these "traditional" roles should be applauded, I do not think the thesis that men blanketly received the better end of the deal within these roles holds up. Just as one example, that fact that men "traditionally" shouldered the bulk of the workplace hazards would contradict this (here the analogy to historic slavery clearly fails for instance. Which slave stays at home while his master goes and gets himself killed on a construction site?).

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
20. Hate to break it to you, but there are white guys on here who think it's fine for them to use it.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:25 PM
Dec 2013

Because TV. (Same as the b-word.)

So, sorry, but it's actually worse than just 'why can't we' now.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
82. There should be something analagous to Godwin's law that this post is exemplary of.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:45 PM
Dec 2013

Men allowed to talk among themselves??? What's next? KKK rallies???

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
85. the thread was about clearly abusive misogyny, and the person
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:47 PM
Dec 2013

came along and whined about 'wacky political correctness' while trying to make the issue about how men are being unfairly treated compared to women

1monster

(11,012 posts)
37. Because business was done in the confines of "men's clubs" where women were excluded...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:15 PM
Dec 2013

It was a way to keep women out of the higher and middle echelons of management. And it was used proficiently.

Women's clubs tend to be more social. And I'll bet, if a man wanted to join a women's club, he would be allowed to do so. Just the majority of men (not all, just most) would not want to join a women's social club.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
42. OK. But that was then. This is the 21st century now
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:18 PM
Dec 2013

Surely things have changed, if only a little. "Progressivism" is in the air!

1monster

(11,012 posts)
50. Yeah. Just like we don't have racism any more according to the Supreme Court...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:38 PM
Dec 2013

We are a totally sexist free society just as we are a totally racist free society.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
89. Not so much.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:59 PM
Dec 2013

My industry is notorious for deals getting done while you're out carousing strip clubs. Yeah technically women *can* go, but how many do you think women feel comfortable going out drinking and carousing strip clubs with the men?

They've just moved from places women *can't* go to places women feel uncomfortable going.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
52. Hmm...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:43 PM
Dec 2013
I'll bet, if a man wanted to join a women's club, he would be allowed to do so.

So my pals and I should have no trouble joining Curves or Lucille Roberts after work tonight. Sweet!

1monster

(11,012 posts)
55. Well, do you allow women in your locker room? I'm not familiar with Lucille Roberts.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:49 PM
Dec 2013

As far as curves go, I only know that as an fitness gym for women, like a World Gym for women, not as a social club. Women DO have fitness challenges that men don't -- just as I'm sure men have challenges that women don't.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
61. The claim was that a man would be allowed to join a women's club
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:03 PM
Dec 2013

I offered two examples where that is decidedly not the case.

I have no interest in joining either, but I present them as examples of exclusive women's clubs, since the initial claim did not specify social clubs. I'm sure that with a little research, you or I could find a great many women-only social clubs nationwide, discussing a wide range of issues and interests. I don't see how anyone could object to this, either.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
69. How is Curves a club? Is World Gym a club? How 'bout Planet Fitness?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:14 PM
Dec 2013

I think first we would have to determine what a "club" is. Curves is a business that caters to women. There have been fitness gyms (businesses) that both men and women could use, but were segregated -- men had the use of them on certain days and women had the use on others.

I haven't heard of the other example so cannot comment on the appropriateness of calling it a "club"...

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
78. Curves self-identifies as a club.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:33 PM
Dec 2013

It is also a business. There is no reason why the two must be mutually exclusive.

With a little digging, I found that Lucille Roberts does not as readily self-identify as a club, so I'll withdraw that example.


What, then, do you identify as a "club?"

1monster

(11,012 posts)
83. Club
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
Dec 2013

club [kluhb]
noun
1. a heavy stick, usually thicker at one end than at the other, suitable for use as a weapon; a cudgel.

2. a group of persons organized for a social, literary, athletic, political, or other purpose: They organized a computer club.

3. the building or rooms occupied by such a group.

4. an organization that offers its subscribers certain benefits, as discounts, bonuses, or interest, in return for regular purchases or payments: a book club; a record club; a Christmas club.

(please note that the use of athletic as a club, I'm referring to something like the Pretty City Soccer Club, or Crimson Tigers Booster Club or such. Not people who who patronize a fitness business.)

If Curves is a subscription service, then maybe it can use the term. If it is a club, and you are so incensed that women want to exercise in the absence of men (and who could blame them for that?) then sue. It's your right to do so.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
87. Not incensed at all. Why do you make that accusation?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:50 PM
Dec 2013

That's simply a rhetorical tactic commonly employed to shut down discussion, equivalent to identifying "outrage" where none exists. Since I am not incensed, and since I don't care if a club for women is a women-only club, I have no standing, reason or desire to sue. Why would you assume otherwise? Whose agenda are you assigning to me?


If you, on the other hand, disagree with Curves' choice to self-identify as a club, then it is your right to pursue the matter with them. I say this not because I presume to grant you this right, of course, but rather because you were kind enough to advise me of my right to sue, so I figured I would return the favor.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
90. Perhaps the fact that you keep challenging me on the subject...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:59 PM
Dec 2013

BTW, I didn't presume to grant you any right at all. You have the right to sue under U.S. law.

And if you don't care about the subject, then why argue about it?

"That's simply a rhetorical tactic commonly employed to shut down discussion, equivalent to identifying "outrage" where none exists."
--- self project much?

Done with you.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
98. So... Replying to your posts is "challenging" you? Okay.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:37 PM
Dec 2013
And if you don't care about the subject, then why argue about it?
That wasn't my claim. I don't care if a women-only club allows only women to join, just as I don't care if a men-only club allows only men. What interests me is why others should take issue with each club's choice to do so.

As to the rhetorical tactic of identifying "outrage," it's not a projection at all. It's a very common tactic on DU, oiften used against a number of HoF posters, in fact. The intent is to distract from the discussion at hand and to attempt to force the person to defend against baseless accusations of outrage.

Similarly, accusing someone of being "incensed" is the same tactic. I am not incensed, so I have no reason to justify that charge.

Done with you.
Ok.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
81. oh yeah, particularly with that attitude...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:39 PM
Dec 2013

You know, that "heyyyy lookadis!! A peekhole into the girls' locker room!!!!" attitude.

Suuuuure... your sincere interest in interacting on a mutually respectful level with chicks is noted.


P.S. Curves is a christian conservative run business which donates heavily to anti-women's health agencies like Birthright and CPC's (Crisis Pregnancy Centers). Some branches even hand out christian pamphlets to gym members.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
84. Who are you addressing?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
Dec 2013
Suuuuure... your sincere interest in interacting on a mutually respectful level with chicks is noted.
Where did you come up with that ridiculous accusation, since it has nothing to do with any attitude I have ever conveyed on DU?

P.S. Curves is a christian conservative run business which donates heavily to anti-women's health agencies like Birthright and CPC's (Crisis Pregnancy Centers). Some branches even hand out christian pamphlets to gym members.
That is yet another reason why I have no desire to join that club, as I have already indicated.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
88. you.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:57 PM
Dec 2013

Perhaps your intent was clouded by the typed medium, but, "Now I can join Curves or Lucille Richards...Sweeeeet!" reads like a line from any number of boys-coming-of-age scripts: Spying on the girls.


If that's not what you intended, my apologies. It is good to be aware of what one sounded like, so one can be clearer.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
91. Ah. I can see how it came across that way, despite my intent.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:05 PM
Dec 2013

It wasn't meant as "sweet, I can check out the chicks" but rather meant ironically as "sweet, I can join a women's club" in response to the previous claim that men would be able to join a such a club.

My fault for imprecision.

CSStrowbridge

(267 posts)
62. It's easy to explain...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:06 PM
Dec 2013

"Women and many other groups have clubs and organizations built for them. Why is it so wrong for men to have the same??"

It's easy to explain. Men have never been the victim of systematic oppression by women.* Remember, the first presidential election in which women could vote was 1920. Even 100 years later, women haven't come close to parity in politics and anti-women legislation is still very common. Women are still seen as second class by a large number of people, including, sadly, many women.

Men don't need a "men's group", because they don't need a shelter from female oppression. Far too often these "men's groups" in fact are there to increase the oppression of women.

------------------------

* - There are areas where men have a disadvantage, but those are generally due to the patriarchy, not oppression by women. Men are less likely to get custody of their children in a divorce, because, "a woman's place is in the home raising the kids". Men tend to have to pay alimony, because men tend to make more. Men go off and fight and die in wars, because men are strong and women are weak and need protection.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
75. if men's groups focused on what you suggest, there would be no problem.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:25 PM
Dec 2013

The problem is what MRA's do in actuality.

I've surfed around a few and they can be very scary (if you're seeing them through a woman's eyes.) They are absolutely of a mind with revenge porn interests.

When I've surfed our own MRA forum, I haven't seen the level of aggression noted above, but I have noticed that the bulk of posts were about who's the hottest female celeb, or bashing and complaining about the "Sisters of Perpetual Outrage", their term for DU feminists who speak openly about artifacts of culturally engrained misogyny. But most of the ugliest He-Men are gone from here now, thank god.

Back in the days of DU2, it was nearly impossible to get some of the worst of them tombstoned, because they delighted in calm-sounding sociopathic word games to anger women who challenged them. Then, when the women would get angry and voice their rage, the scum would alert and it was the Women who got booted! (ask me how I know this )

Glad sexism awareness has evolved here.....

But to return to the earlier point, those dudes here who do participate in the DU feminist scorn--they could be called the playground bully brothers of taking cultural analyses personally. Or something.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
102. ...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:48 PM
Dec 2013


Yes indeed, they are functioning in the same world of rage and projection that freep republic does. It's really sick.

Other examples of widespread hate against females can be seen in the comments sections of many mass-popular websites, like youtube, yahoo and urban dictionary.

Youtube, for example---vids posted by or about talented young women will invariably be overrun with dudes making sexual comments.

Either of the "I'm in love with u, ur so pretty" variety, or the "f#cking stinking p#ssy w#ore why don't u gobble my c#ck" variety. Or "you're fat and ugly who'd want to f#ck you." Many times, females particularly young pretty ones, have to resort to blocking comments.

And forget it if you're just an average girl who wants to post average or silly stuff like the guys do!


I cleaned up the spellings because I don't want to have mypoint lost and post hidden by any word-moralists!
 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
11. Directly equating men's rights sites with revenge porn is bullshit
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:09 PM
Dec 2013

Not saying there's no overlap of people attracted to either thought, but for instance men are still discriminated against in divorce custody hearings and the like so there is some legitimacy of discussion around men's rights whereas revenge porn has no justification.

 

politichew

(230 posts)
25. Consider the source.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:55 PM
Dec 2013

As a person on the left, it pains me that someone might associate me with the drivel posted on that site.

There are plenty of decent liberal news publications that represent the views of the left more accurately and less batshit.

Before someone asks: I am opposed to revenge porn and think men's rights groups are as ridiculous as the groups they try to mirror.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
30. Men's rights groups are NOT about unfair divorces.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:07 PM
Dec 2013

They're about undermining feminism and panicking over losing their privilege. They're not allowed to be as misogynistic and creepy as they used to be, so take it out on the feminazi manhaters.

They just happen to bring up divorce every now and then to give them an appearance of legitimacy.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
41. No, I'm not. That's true of every men's rights group I have ever seen.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:16 PM
Dec 2013

Blatant misogyny and rape apologia is rampant among those groups.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
44. Please check out the articles I linked in post 24
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:24 PM
Dec 2013

You might have seen them already. Must-read stuff.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
71. When I was going through a divorce, a number of groups were very helpful.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:16 PM
Dec 2013

Support groups, advocacy groups, etc. But nary a one of 'em was called a "men's rights group". And for good reason. As I wrote elsewhere:

"There is no need for a “men’s rights” anything. We males own most of the world’s wealth, control most of its governments, and are in charge of nearly all of its law-enforcement. Really, who is oppressing us? Answer: no-f***ing-body is oppressing us."


A "father's rights" group has a definite cause to advance in cases of domestic law. But that is a rare exception to the rule, and is confined to a narrow element of American culture and law.

Overall, men don't need more "rights". And those who think they do are likely those called out in the OP.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
22. I don't know why a woman would allow anyon to take nude photos of her
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:45 PM
Dec 2013

As for males that live seething with anger that females even exist, they seriously need to grow up and cease being a bunch of 2 year olds in old, decrepit male bodies. Do women pay attention to these sickos?

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
26. You're right. They are dangerous, sick individuals.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:02 PM
Dec 2013

The fathers' rights and patriarchal groups are among them.

Good news though! Here's one patriarchal group that is crashing and burning:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/julie-ingersoll/more-on-doug-phillips-and_b_4284402.html


JHB

(37,160 posts)
28. The author of another recent article on this found that of the group she talked to...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

...over half of the photos were from illegal phone hacks or from their paces being photomanipulated onto someone else's (nude) photo.


http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/charlotte-laws-hunter-moore-erin-brockovich-revenge-porn

Within a week, I had spoken with dozens of victims from around the country, and my findings were astonishing. A full 40 percent had been hacked only days before their photos were loaded onto Is Anyone Up? In most cases, the scam began through Facebook and ended when “Gary Jones” gained access to the victim’s email account. Another 12 percent of my sample group claimed their names and faces were morphed or posted next to nude bodies that were not theirs; and 36 percent believed they were revenge porn victims in the traditional “angry ex-boyfriend sense” (although some of these folks were on good terms with their exes and thought the exes might have been hacked). Lastly, 12 percent of my sample group were “self-submits.” The "self-submits,” of course, are not victims at all; they are individuals who willingly sent their images to Moore. In the end, it was disturbing to realize that over half of the folks from my informal study were either criminally hacked or posted next to body parts that were not theirs.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
130. Don't blame the victims.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:48 PM
Dec 2013

Sometimes it's pictures that were coerced, sometimes it's pictures of people who were not sober and being taken advantage of, sometimes it's pictures that were stolen, sometimes one person violated another person's trust, sometimes it's someone who was a nude model and later had regrets, and sometimes it's just silly sexual stuff between lovers that got misplaced and the finder of the photos dishonorably distributed them.

In no case is it any fault of the victim.

The gentleperson's response is not to seek out sexual photos that were published or distributed without the subject's consent. If by some accident you see such photos it ends there. If you open a door and see a couple going at it? Step back and close the door. That's the end of it. Don't take pictures, don't tell stories that identify the lovers if they are consenting adults. Certainly, call the police if they are not. Thirty year old preacher and fifteen year old kid, yes. Thirty year old preacher and forty year old church secretary, no.

The paparazzi hiding in the hills with a long lens is the scumbag, not the nude celebrity enjoying the hot tub with a friend. The guy who posts nude photos of his ex against his or her will is the scumbag, not the ex.

It's an easy ethical rule to follow.


hunter

(38,311 posts)
156. "Protect oneself" from what?
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 02:54 PM
Dec 2013

Why should nude photos ever be of any consequence?

Our sick society is always quick to blame the victim.

Wouldn't it be better if our society went after the creeps?

It's exactly the same situation with Zimmerman-shot-Martin kind of violence, or when police shoot unarmed people.

It's the creeps who inflict that kind of violence who ought to be repressed. Zimmerman ought to have lost his guns, his neighborhood watch status, and have already had spent time in jail and been on probation for domestic violence and abusing the 911 system. Then maybe he'd have left Martin alone.

I'm currently in a position where it doesn't matter if there are nude pictures of me on the internet. When I was a public school teacher that was not the case, but in those days the internet was still the province of computer nerds like myself and most people didn't have much in the way of graphics capabilities anyways.

Naked pictures on an Apple II, original Macintosh, or even a P.C. Hercules graphics card left a lot to the imagination...

I also have a very thick skin.

But going forward to modern times, let's say ordinary intimate pictures of a teacher are found on the internet. What ought to be the consequences? I'd say none for the teacher. But parents, students, or coworkers who use these pictures as a means of harassment or an excuse for disruption ought to be crushed. Expel the kid, blacklist the parent, fire the creepy coworker.

The same sorts of rules ought to apply in similar situations.

This "boys will be boys" bullying and harassment should never be tolerated. Violence should never be tolerated. Stalking, in "real life" or on the internet should never be tolerated.


Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
157. Protect oneself from what? You said it yourself just now...
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 12:01 AM
Dec 2013
Our sick society is always quick to blame the victim.

^^^

Then you said:

Wouldn't it be better if our society went after the creeps?

And the answer to that is:

Yeah, and immortality would be nice, and it'd be nice if there were no poor people, and no Republicans, and so on and so on...

But that's not the way it is, and there are some real sickos out there, who are not going to not mess with you simply because you think people should be able to do any damned thing they want and not be messed with by the sickos.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
158. Is there a difference between these statements:
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 01:17 PM
Dec 2013

"Don't drive a car if you are a young black man."

"Don't take nude photos of yourself or allow anyone else to take nude photos of you if you are a young woman."

There is no difference.

Maybe it's reasonable to tell a young black man to be careful driving a car because there are creepy cops who will harass them so be extra polite, hands visible, etc., etc., when a cop pulls them over, but it's not reasonable to tell them not to drive.

It's also reasonable to tell young women there are creeps and stalkers who will post any nude photos they find on the internet.

But just as every cop is not someone who is out to harass every young black man he sees driving down the street, not every intimate partner is a creep who will post "revenge porn" pictures when you break up, and not every stranger is creep who will post pictures found on a lost or stolen cell cell phone.

The problem isn't the driving or the photos, the problem is the creeps.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
27. I'll take your word for it.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

The rights I feel I am lacking have everything to do with social class and nothing to do with gender. Revenge porn ought to be and probably is a crime.

There are a few instances where men actually have equal rights, but believe that they do not. For instance, in a cohabitation relationship, married or otherwise, the woman does not in fact have the legal right to evict the man simply because she is angry at him. And in the example of parental rights and responsibilities, the man has equal rights on paper, but elderly judges who went to law school before gender-neutral legislation tend to forget that. Generally, however, the culture favors white men, even if that preference is not as bad as it once was.

Gothmog

(145,176 posts)
34. There are law firms advertising that they only represent men in divorces
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:13 PM
Dec 2013

Every time I hear one of these ads, I feel a little sick because these lawyers are playing to the concept that men are being picked on. I find this view to be disturbing.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
92. Women pay child support in Texas, and Texas doesn't have "alimony".
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:07 PM
Dec 2013

The Spanish law in Texas is much more equal than in other states. All the community property states are in the West, where women had rights to own property much sooner than in common law states.

The woman is presumed to be equally responsible for supporting the family and women regularly pay child support to men. There is no presumption that the mothers should get custody.

The people who whine about crushing alimony payments probably live in New England. The English law and the Code Napoleon in Louisiana are unfavorable to women.

The laws are different in different states and some people forget that. There are 50 different sets of marital property/divorce rules.

Texas also has no-fault divorce which is considered to be progressive.

Those ads are disturbing to me too, Gothmog. The men's rights groups tend to be wealthy professionals who think they should not have the obligation to pay child support. And they think they have the right to beat their wives, and put their businesses in bankruptcy to prevent the wife from getting any separate maintenance whatsoever.

I've seen this happen in Family Court many times. I was a court reporter for 20 years--the poor slob who sits in front of the witness stand and bangs on a stenograph machine and then types up transcripts later.

A job with unbelievable stress and nasty lawyers and judges who just make it worse because they dump their anger on you, or the clerk, or the bailiff.

PS:I have a law degree. My dad was an attorney and I typed for him. I can practically type a Texas divorce petition in my sleep.


Gothmog

(145,176 posts)
101. I am a transactional lawyer
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:46 PM
Dec 2013

My firm has a family section that is very active with two female partners. I do not practice in this area but I have heard stories from that section of the firm. I have heard from clients that my two female partners are top notched and I know that they represent both men and women in divorces.

These male firms are focusing on professional men who want to in effect cheat their wives out of a part of what they are entitled to under the law. The "men only" emphasis is an advertising trick to hide the fact that these firms are not in the top tier in this area. The top tier of family lawyers have no trouble representing either side of a divorce and the lawyers who have to rely on this advertising trick are not top tier lawyers (at least not here in Houston). The men who end up using these "men oriented" firms are not getting the best counsel.

I have a son who is a transactional lawyer at a major downtown firm and my middle child is in law school (she wants to do non-profit or government work). The family law area is a very different area of the law compared to my practice

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
121. Yep. All those firms want to do is keep men from having to pay child support,
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:10 PM
Dec 2013

or give their wife any assets that she is entitled to. Listen to their radio ads, and read their websites. It's very clearly stated that they are in it to keep the ex from getting any of their money and 'stuff'.

Gothmog

(145,176 posts)
127. These lawyers have to rely on this advertising gimmick because they are not top tier
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:28 PM
Dec 2013

Top tier divorce lawyers represent both side of the docket. The men who hire this type of law firm are hiring some weak attorneys who have to rely on a gimmick. The top tier lawyer in this field do not have to rely on this type of gimmick.

 

BrainDrain

(244 posts)
38. What I don't get is....
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:16 PM
Dec 2013

women can break up with a guy and go onto any social site they want and make fun of him, deride him and pretty much say or do anything they feel like. If the guy in question, either says or does anything to retaliate, he is immediately set upon as some kind of monster, or is further made fun of as a wuss.

I am NOT supporting revenge porn in anyway shape or form. What I am saying is that people take their hurt feelings to an extreme and it is NOT right to denigrate ANYONE on line to the point where their real life gets marred by it. Period.
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
57. What I don't get is why anyone thinks women have TIME to do that
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:53 PM
Dec 2013

What with having to work longer hours for the same pay, do all the childcare and housework, and try to stay healthy and sane....

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
110. Do you understand that there is a difference between a) discussing your breakup with your friends
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:24 PM
Dec 2013

and b)posting private sexual photos of your ex, some of which are photo shopped, along with phone numbers, addresses, social media contacts, and emails so that strangers, who are as sick as the poster is, can find the ex and harass her in person?

Because, you know, there is a difference.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
122. This is not about "making fun of and deriding" people. This is about sexually humiliating them.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:18 PM
Dec 2013

And posting a picture of a guy's junk in order to humiliate him - and encourage harassment by others - would be just as morally wrong.

TommyCelt

(838 posts)
40. Revenge Porn...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 02:16 PM
Dec 2013

Never heard of it as a "movement" until today; I thought the idea of passing around nude pics of an ex was simply men bitching about what they can't have any more.

How reprehensible that some are attempting to masquerade this sour-grapes adolescent reaction as some type of legitmate "men's rights" practice!

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
63. I imagine the flames of the burning rage and antagonism these men have toward autonomous women
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:08 PM
Dec 2013

are fueled to the max by the fact that these men are such nasty bullies that very few, or no, women would ever consider dating them, or sleeping with them.

Well, prostitutes would, I'm sure.

Warpy

(111,255 posts)
68. Thank you for posting this, it's a good and relatively mild assessment
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:14 PM
Dec 2013

of what's going on out there. A lot of men, especially older men who vaguely remember when Mom was home full time and at the beck and call of everybody else in the house, are outraged that the rules have changed.

What really provoked it wasn't so much the women's movement, it was the huge drop in the earning power of male wages that forced women into the paid workforce. People who are paid for their work out in the world command just a little more respect in the home than unpaid doormat Mom did.

And what the men in those groups don't understand is that the 50s were an aberration. Women have always worked for money, home based jobs like baking for restaurants, keeping backyard chickens and selling eggs, knitting gloves, dressmaking, whatever. The 50s were a time when a single income could support the family and the cottage industries had been industrialized away from the home.

While it's easy to deplore the hatred of women one sees on MRA sites and deplore the ignorance of economic history that produced it, I see those sites as a safety valve for a certain type of man. It only sucks when a certain type of man gets elected and starts trying to pass peabrained laws.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
73. Quantity is not the only determiner of efficacy.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:18 PM
Dec 2013

There are only a few "Rush Limbaugh" types out there, but they have quite an impact.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
149. Enough to make life miserable for quite a few women.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 12:26 PM
Dec 2013

I am continually amazed at the crap humans come up with to make their fellow human miserable.

I mean... of all the possible things one could be doing at any given moment.... and we get "revenge porn". WTF!

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
151. I agree totally. This shit is "Idiocracy" incarnate as far as I'm concerned.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 07:08 PM
Dec 2013

And the fact that some of the guys pulling this shit are educated professionals, just makes me want to bury my head in my hands all the more.

MANative

(4,112 posts)
76. So the conclusion is that a huge chunk of the male population has not progressed...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:25 PM
Dec 2013

Beyond the Neanderthal. As a woman of a certain age, I could have told that twenty years ago. No news there.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
80. I think that the revenge thing and the
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:37 PM
Dec 2013

kooky men's rights are two different issues.

I can't take the extreme men's thing seriously. I don't know any guy (young or old) that thinks like that. Like any bizarre extremist group, I think they lurk on the fringes -and basements too.

The revenge thing is wrong. But again, as I have said before, how many times do naked pictures have to get posted before people wise up and DON'T TAKE THEM. This goes with extra crazy party pictures too. Not everybody is your 'friend' and people seem to be meaner now than ever. I wonder how they square their feelings about the NSA with this constant need to send boob or dick pictures around, and every irrelevant detail about your life. You can't scream about privacy one minute, and then shove your phone down your pants or blouse, click, send.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
135. I think revenge porn and "kooky men's rights" groups' hatred of women come from the same impulse.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:09 PM
Dec 2013

And as was pointed out elsewhere, a large proportion of the women whose photos were posted never took naked pictures of themselves. Their faces were superimposed on photos of other women, or the photos were taken without their permission.

So it's not really about shoving your phone down your pants. It's about a vindictive creep trying to put you in your place because you told him to go away.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
125. Of course. Who ever said otherwise?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:25 PM
Dec 2013

Like I keep saying, if the MRA types actually gave a shit about real issues of concern to males, then they might have some use to the world. But what they're really about is woman-hating.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
128. These groups are dangerous.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:33 PM
Dec 2013

Just wanted to post this again here in case anyone thinks this is something that should be ignored in the hopes that it will just go away.

People have been trying to raise awareness of the dangers posed by these groups for years.

http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
131. both women and men are known for doing
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:35 PM
Dec 2013

,mean and cruel things when they find out that their partners cheating on them. Been that way for ever and party will be not changing anytime soon. I do think revenge porn sites are bad, though.

and there's nothing wrong with being upset with your partner cheats its not autonomy, its infidelity. ..

madinmaryland

(64,931 posts)
132. What's interesting about Men's "Rights" groups are that they are all about white men...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:48 PM
Dec 2013

You can be sure they are not interested in African American Men's Rights. It's not about their rights, its about the subjugation of anyone who is not like them. AKA, Teabaggers and Freepers.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
133. Well I have seen anger among them that feminists are not spending
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:59 PM
Dec 2013

all their energies fighting to increase men's rights. So I assume that they are also pissed that black men are not fighting to increase white men's rights. No one seems to be taking their plight to heart.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
141. I'm the child of a Wild West matriarchal society and I married into one.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:40 PM
Dec 2013

My great grandmothers owned the ranches and dairies. One great grandma owned the house my rocket-scientist grandfather and my grandma lived in until she passed on.

Have I said the roads around here are family names? Patriarchal names yes, but it's mostly the women who made it so.

The three great grandmothers I met were all strong women. Scary even. I'd watch them cutting up a fish or small mammals for dinner and I'd be certain I wouldn't ever want to mess with them. They had guns too and they knew how to use them.

This is the great grandma I never met:



The others were very much the same.

My mom was always the final arbiter of where we lived. (My dad's an artist. He can live anywhere. Even in a remote rain forest.)

My wife's grandmothers chose to have her kids born in the U.S.A. My wife's ancestors were Native (United States) Americans and Irish. The sorts who decided Mexico or Canada would be friendlier places in rough U.S.A. times, the sort who walked away from trouble.

My "nuclear" childhood family was living in Europe when the draft for the Viet Nam war ended. It's possible we would not have returned to the U.S.A. if there was any danger of me or my male siblings being drafted. We were Quakers at the time too, my mom's prerogative. Double insurance.

It goes way back. I have ancestors who dodged the U.S.A. Civil War, jumped ship in Barbary Coast San Francisco, and one who was a mail oder bride from Europe to Salt Lake City who decided she didn't like sharing a husband and ran off with a U.S. government surveyor and established a homestead. I'm absolutely certain it was her idea. He just liked math, sex, and the wilderness. The long term planning was all hers.

A large part of me thinks men are much better at messing everything up than women. If men had tried to impose their will upon the women in my family I'd never have had the privilege existing, no more than half of me as a dead sperm cell possibly in a crushed very painful testicle.

I do know I'll die happier than many of the "Men's Rights" people even if I die in a cardboard box under a pile of newspapers living on the streets.

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