The legacy of Sandyhook

[BainsBane]

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats


Guess what. Other countries have "gun free zones" for their schools too, only they really are gun free.

[Jefferson23]

1. It's too sad..we are in many ways, as a country...disintegrating. n/t

[BainsBane]

2. We're at war with ourselves

A bloody domestic war that has claimed more American casualties since 1968 than all of the wars in US history combined.

[Jefferson23]

3. I think so, the numbers are very real and painful and the response is something out of the Twilight

Zone.

[hack89]

4. There are many things in America that have done that

Considering 2.5 million Americans die annually. Guns are pretty low on the list of things that kill people every year.

[Jefferson23]

5. Yea, that is a really great response.

Right out of the Twilight Zone...well done.

[hack89]

7. Just putting the hyperbole in context

Don't you think, for example, the fact that cigarettes kill 500,000 people annually is a more important issue than guns? There are many things in America that kill many more people than guns yet they don't elicit the emotional hyperbole as guns do. My only point.

[Jefferson23]

10. I know what your point was, and I do not appreciate it...not at all.

The context you are striving for does not change the fact that there are numerous
shootings. The context you are striving for does not change the fact that numerous
gun laws have been rolled back because of the NRA, along with receptive/complicit
consumers.

[hack89]

11. And your context does not change the fact

That gun deaths have been steadily declining for 20 years and are at record lows. If those relaxed gun laws actually led to an increase in gun violence you might have a point.

[Blanket Statements]

12. DC was supposed to turn into the Wild West after Heller

It's been anything but

[Jefferson23]

15. I am so pleased to learn as a nation, things are going in the right direction.

Did I get that context correct this time? I sure hope so, hack89.

[hack89]

17. When it comes to crime and violence it most definitely is

We have cut our murder rate in half - you have never been more unlikely to be a victim of violent crime.

[Jefferson23]

19. You are sadly misguided. More guns in the hands of Ameican citizens will not make the US

more benevolent....only more brutal. The gun culture in the US is unhinged as demonstrated by
the gun ownership per capita is far greater than any other nation, thus so are the number
of murders and massacre.

Your attempt at context is ludicrous, at best. You leave out that guns are the most common
murder weapon in this country.

Bureau of Justice Statistics found two out of three murders are carried out with guns..but you feel
compelled to add context: There are many things in America that have done that

Considering 2.5 million Americans die annually. Guns are pretty low on the list of things that kill people every year. ( end )

Your repugnant appeal affirming the US is going in the right direction does not address the reality that
the US has a higher murder rate than most other developed countries.

There is no correlation between gun violence and gun availability..nah...lets move along and
focus on greater concerns.

[hack89]

20. We have cut our murder rate in half and it continues to decline

Every year America becomes less violent.

Those are hard facts - care to address them?

[Jefferson23]

21. I already have..but keep up the less violent meme, as it means so much to you and

your like minded supporters.

[hack89]

22. Are you denying that violence has decreased significantly?

do you want some links?

[Jefferson23]

23. Your links do not change the facts in my earlier post.

I believe you know that to be true.

Fact: our homicide rate of 4.7 murders per 100,000 people, which is one of the highest of all developed countries.

Fact: Countries that allow by law easy access to guns have more gun violence.

Fact: There exists no evidence, as found by the National Research Council, that right to carry laws
decrease crime.

Fact: Guns are utilized to commit a crime ten times as often as they're used in self defense.

The roll back the NRA has accomplished on existing gun laws was in no part a
positive step in the right direction...your friends.

[hack89]

24. Gun violence decreased despite those roll backs

so what harm exactly did they cause?

Is your problem simply that gun violence is not falling fast enough for your taste?

[Jefferson23]

25. I could be wrong, but I do believe you are behaving willfully obtuse.

The rollbacks caused no harm??..really. What a proactive approach..interesting.
At least this tells me about your POV.



Bullets and booze: In Missouri, law-abiding citizens can carry a gun while intoxicated and even fire it if "acting in self-defense."

Child-safety lock off: In Kansas, permit holders can carry concealed weapons inside K-12 schools and at school-sponsored activities.

Short arm of the law: In Utah, a person under felony indictment can buy a gun, and a person charged with a violent crime may be able to retain a concealed weapon permit. Nebraskans who've pled guilty to a violent crime can get a permit to carry a gun.

In Louisiana, permit holders can carry concealed weapons inside houses of worship.

Without a trace: Virginia not only repealed a law requiring handgun vendors to submit sales records, but the state also ordered the destruction of all such previous records.

[hack89]

26. Every year there is less violence

why are you avoiding that basic fact? If those laws you listed did not increase gun deaths then what is your point? What other measure are you using to evaluate the laws?

[Jefferson23]

27. Every year there is less violence and the level of violence is

remains off the charts.

The roll backs are a positive way forward..to you, because as yet, they
have not yielded more crime...ok.

As I thought, you're being obtuse, hack89.

[hack89]

28. "Off the charts"? Ok. Nt

[Jefferson23]

29. Yes, homicides one of the highest of all developed countries.

So long, hack89.

[hack89]

31. Pleasure talking to you. See you around. Nt

[laundry_queen]

30. Yep.

It might be going down in the US but it's going down everywhere else too. And the US rates started out way off the charts in comparison. So that statistic essentially means nothing.

[hack89]

32. The point is more guns did not increase the number of gun deaths

Care to explain how that happened?

[laundry_queen]

33. Not really, since it doesn't seem you are interested in listening

I have looked into the issue and there are many reasons. Google is your friend, if you are interested at all. I don't feel like spending too much time on this, I've seen you on these threads before.

[hack89]

39. Of course you refuse

Emotion based arguments are all you have. Since no one will address my basic question, it is funny how I am the one not listening.

[laundry_queen]

40. What is wrong with emotion based arguments?

Are we all androids now? Since when do only 'rational' based arguments count with regards to humans dying? I'm glad I'm not so cold as that. I'm proud to be emotional about this issue. No one is answering you because of your history in these threads. And this will be the last post I do in response to you because I'm now remembering your last-word-itis issue as well.

[hack89]

42. At least you are honest and don't try to hide your disdain for rational thought

Unlike some others here.

[laundry_queen]

45. And I'm glad you don't hide your ice cold grinch heart for all to see.

Don't want people to think human lives are worth something - might cause some issues with the current system.

[hack89]

46. I favor increased gun control

The differences between us are not as great as you would think - the only two things I reject is registration and an AWB. I have no problem with UBCs, magazine limits, training requirements and other gun control proposals.

This entire thread was merely me tweaking the OP for over the top hyperbol, which is common in gun threads.

[firsttimer]

16. I understand your point but with cigarettes it is a self inflicted death with all we know about

smoking .

A mass shooting is a very violent occurrence on unsuspecting people
that affects not only the people killed but family members who had just kissed
their wife ,husband or kids good-by and told them to have a nice day.

People die from drunk drivers and to me that is right up there with a shooting of an innocent person.

Same thing , kiss your wife good- by or your kids and tell them to have a nice day and some drunk kills them .

[hack89]

18. The post I was addressing was talking about all gun deaths

Two thirds of which are self inflicted death due to suicides.

[beevul]

13. Since when is the truth "Right out of the Twilight Zone"?

Oh, because guns.


Mkay.

[Jefferson23]

14. Your truth. n/t

[shenmue]

6. Mercy

[petronius]

8. That overall total (58) appears too low, as does the number between

Columbine and Sandy Hook (31). I gather from the title that the creator of the graphic is suggesting that Sandy Hook represents a turning point, but to do so s/he has under-counted events before Sandy Hook, over-counted events after Sandy Hook, or both. Perhaps s/he used a different definition of 'school shooting' for the pre- and post- periods?

For comparison, the dataset with this Slate article lists more than 31 shootings between Columbine and Sandy Hook, even if we limit it to fatal events in K-12 schools. It does seem that frequency has increased since 1980, however...

[BainsBane]

9. Mother Jones had a piece showing that mass shootings have increased

even as the overall homicide rate has gone down.

I'm not sure what's up with the numbers in the graphic. It came across my FB feed.

[Recursion]

34. It's odd. Schools are, in general, MUCH less violent than 20 years ago

But random mass shootings were much less common then than they are now. They're "scarier" (I don't mean that mockingly; I mean they really are subjectively more frightening for a reason I can't quite articulate), but the non-random, non-mass shootings and stabbings that used to be much more common have essentially stopped.



There was an old and now largely-discredited theory called the "wallpaper" model of violence; that there's a certain level of violence inherent in the population and that if you stop it at point A, it will just happen instead at point B (like pushing down air bubbles in wallpaper). Maybe that needs to be dusted off?

[BainsBane]

35. I think the media feeds these mass shooters

They study each other. Some like Lanza seek to take out more casualties than other shooters have. They are looking for their moment of fame, and television provides it. That's my guess as to why mass shootings have increased. Also the great variety of assault weapons with large capacity magazines make it easy to take out lots of victims.

[Recursion]

36. I think there's definitely something to that

Also the great variety of assault weapons with large capacity magazines make it easy to take out lots of victims.

It's interesting... all of the "assault weapon" models have been available to civilians for about 60 years now. They only got popular about 20 years ago. When the 94 AWB passed, AK's and AR's were pretty rare; after it, the manufacturers filed off the bayonet lugs (at which point they became legal again) and they sold like hotcakes. But even that's a little simplistic; they were growing in popularity in the late 1980s already. I don't buy the NRA argument that the AWB "made them popular" (I think that was already happening), but I really have no idea why they were ignored for forty years and then suddenly got popular.

[BainsBane]

37. People are more twisted?

The NRA feeds it? They take movies too seriously? I don't know. I'm just glad I don't know any of them.

Of course the other explanation is that they are lunatics looking to have their own ultra right wing take over of the country. That is one of the reasons they explicitly give for stockpiling that shit.

[Recursion]

38. Maybe? Or target shooting overtook hunting?

They're "better" rifles in a lot of ways (the grips provider greater accuracy and make slips and drops less likely, the black finish is weather resistant, etc.) If I had to guess I'd say people started hunting less (only 20% of gun owners hunt nowadays, compared to I think 40% back in the 1960s). They're also lighter (both in terms of physical weight and firepower) than the more traditional "hunting" rifles; you can't take your AR-15 deer hunting because it would probably not kill a deer, but you can take it to the range and fire a lot of (much cheaper) ammo in an afternoon.

Though I'd also add that rifles of any kind are a very small fraction of US firearms; the vast majority (and what kills the vast majority of people) are handguns. Though that's another thing: in the mid-90s we shut down a group of gunmakers that were making cheap, low-quality pistols and deliberately marketing them to criminals (the "ring of fire" -- there was a good Frontline on it way back when); I think there are some signs that those gunmakers are returning, and I really hope that gets nipped in the bud...

[hack89]

43. Do you lump handguns into your definition of assault weapons? Nt

[NYC_SKP]

41. IMO, both sides select data that makes their point. Per capita, mass shootings are dropping.

Overall rate is certainly in decline, but the most often posted graph plotting mass shootings and total victims from 1976 - 2012 shows basically no change with wild intervals in between.

And, since the US population ROSE by 40% during that time period, the per capita rate for mass shootings has fallen significantly.



I don't know, of course, what adding 2012 and 2013 to that graph would do to the trend.

I think this is a good read: http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunday-commentary/20130920-qa-what-the-right-and-left-get-wrong-about-mass-shootings.ece

[Agschmid]

44. This does not meet the SOP for this forum, you should consider self-deleting and moving it.

DU has appropriate areas to discuss gun issues, including the gun free zones you mentioned.