I always believed Snowden is a hero, but

[Harmony Blue]

is there anyone out there that has changed their minds about Snowden with the recent news the last few weeks? In other words, were you undecided or did you feel Snowden committed some type of wrong, but have changed your stance since then?

[clydefrand]

1. I haven't changed my mind

Snowden is a traitor and if he ever gets back to the US, should be tried as such. If guilty, that is automatic
execution. The fact that it has pointed out the outlandish acts of the NSA has nothing to do with his being a traitor.
He could have made a statement about the NSA and have been handled as a whistle blower, not a traitor.

B I G D I F F E R E N C E!!!

[Harmony Blue]

2. Automatic exectution?

You feel very strongly about this, but if that is the case why not so strongly about those that allowed such a major security breach? Why no punishment for them? What about the contracts that Booz-Allen Hamilton has? Shouldn't all of them be terminated (a pun)? Why only Snowden?

[el_bryanto]

7. Look why did we spend all that money on the Robo Cop Program if not to have

Automatic Executions. It's a huge saving to our overworked court system. And he's a robot! Robots don't make mistakes.

Yes - calling for the immediate automatic execution of Snowden is a huge overreach even if you think what he did wasn't good.

Bryant

[okaawhatever]

40. He said he should be tried and if found guilty nt

[el_bryanto]

48. So you are saying my Robocop Scenario isn't realistic? nt

[JaneyVee]

6. Doesn't the fact that the NSA actions were ruled unconstitutional make him

A whistleblower and no longer a 'traitor'? How can one be a traitor when taking the side of the Constitution?

[hack89]

23. Not really

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 10:44 AM - Edit history (1)

the part about the NSA spying on Americans is unconstitutional. Spying on non-Americans is perfectly legal. If he had limited himself to just releasing the information on domestic spying, you might have a point. Revealing our foreign intelligence activities is still a crime.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Spying on US allies is highly questionable

and if it were revealed that a foreign government were engaging in the kind of surveillance activities against US citizens that the USA is against citizens of other countries? It might be grounds for war. So, you know, I don't really have that much of a problem with Snowden's exposing the scale of American arrogance and hypocrisy.

[JaneyVee]

50. Good point.

[Th1onein]

13. Wow.

Snowden knew how other whistleblowers of this program had been treated, and he rightly and wisely chose not to take that path. Can't say that I blame him.

Automatic execution? Is that what we do to our national heroes these days?

[frylock]

15. derpa derpa derp

[Tikki]

16. I agree with you…word for word..

Tikki

[tblue37]

20. When whistleblowers go through "proper channels," they get shut down (and risk prison anyway). nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Yep. It would be like an informer going to the Godfather to complain about the Mafia.

[Luminous Animal]

44. Your parents should have fed you more pre GMO Wheaties while you were growing up.

[LiberalEsto]

3. The only thing Snowden is a "traitor" to is the corporate-controlled government

He is a hero to me for exposing the cancer within the US government that jeopardizes our Constitutional freedoms.

[TwilightGardener]

4. I always wonder why people can't dislike both Snowden AND NSA overreach.

I think he's a smarmy little traitorous opportunistic shitweasel. I think the unconstitutional overboard data collection against Americans needs to be reined in. There are no heroes in this.

[Harmony Blue]

5. That is a fair point

but given the circumstances I am not sure how you can do so through the legal channels as a whistleblower given the fate of previous NSA whistleblowers.

[TwilightGardener]

9. Well, if you come across information that greatly disturbs you during the honest performance

of your job, and you leak JUST THAT SPECIFIC INFO and face the music, that's a whistleblower and deserving of some protection. Taking a job for the purpose of indiscriminately stealing thousands or millions of pieces of info, and then fleeing with it to countries that don't exactly wish us well, and then using the as-yet-unrevealed info as a weapon against your own country, is pretty awful behavior--and might harm America more in the long run than whatever beneficial info is revealed.

[Th1onein]

14. Uhhh, TwilightGardener? The idea that he used info against the US has been debunked.

Perhaps you ought to inform yourself?

[gcomeau]

26. No, it hasn't.

Inform yourself. Releasing info on *foreign* intelligence activities, which he has definitively done, is using the data against the US. By definition.

[Th1onein]

30. You're the one levying the accusation. Care to show proof?

Just one link, please, with the evidence he gave our secrets to China and Russia. Just one.

[gcomeau]

32. He Publicly Released Data On Foreign Intel Operations.

That's giving it to FUCKING EVERYONE.

(You know what's included in "Everyone"? China and Russia)

[Th1onein]

33. LOL....like I said, are Americans the ONLY ones who should be given privacy?

Snowden showed how the NSA was spying on the world. People in other parts of the world have the right to privacy, too, not just Americans.

After all, we criticize foreign governments all the time for their human rights abuses.....like we're so much better.

Still don't see that link.

[gcomeau]

36. I'll take that as an admission you were wrong.

Since you have now abandoned your claim he didn't release the data and switched to "I don't care that he released the data".


Since I have no interest in bothering engaging with your "betraying your country is fine with me" position, we're done now.

[Th1onein]

38. Take it any way you want. You're still wrong and you know it.

You are saying that it is okay to spy on people, all people. Dead wrong.

[gcomeau]

45. Intelligence gathering serves a purpose.

Grow up.



But at least you've accepted what Snowden did. Finally.

[Vattel]

53. True whistleblowers have no obligation to "face the music."

I don't know why the meme that those who justifiably break the law must accept the legal consequences is so popular around here.
If I were to justifiably expose government wrongdoing, and then that same government tried to punish me for doing so, I would avoid the punishment and tell the government to go fuck itself. Sadly, though, many have such a subservient attitude towards government that they think that they must allow the government to punish them even when the punishment is unjust.

(I do not mean to imply that what Snowden did was justifiable. My point is a general one about justifiable whistleblowing.)

[frazzled]

11. +1 I'm totally with you on this point

And the explanation you give in your follow-up post.

[brush]

12. Yeah! Exactamundo!

This is the best I've ever heard it put. Nail head meet hammer.

[great white snark]

17. +1

Totally agree.

[Whisp]

19. I'm inclined to agree with your stance.

I think Snowden is a pathetic creature, his love of Ayn Randian shit should be enough to make bells ring.

But
I also believe there are no innocents in this and that the NSA certainly can't be - to wht extent, who knows, stories get twisted all the time but I have no doubts that, being made up of humans there will be things done that are not legal and downright stupid.

But on the other hand, to want to disembowel the NSA is really not such a good idea. We are living in a new world of cyber terrorism whether one wants to accept that or not, and to be a sitting, helpless duck when the other guys have all the nifty new tools is truly the stuff made of fools.

[frylock]

25. and of course you base that opinion on the unbiased reporting from the librul media

[MADem]

28. I have no trouble doing that.

I think I come in on the walk and chew gum at the same time group!

[Release The Hounds]

37. Nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[NuclearDem]

8. I've refrained from naming saints and heroes in this whole situation.

The information in the leaks has always been more important, and putting up personalities and figures for the authoritarians and media to go after instead tends to detract from debates on the actual content.

Don't get me wrong, he did the right thing, but I'm not getting into the sanctification of anyone yet.

[GodlessBiker]

10. He did the American people a great favor at considerable risk to himself. My mind isn't changed.

[adavid]

18. Remember;

Snowden did not expose criminality by the government. He exposed spying by the government that was made LEGAL by the anti-freedom, anti-American patriot act.

[Savannahmann]

58. No, he exposed activities that the Government said was legal under the PATRIOT ACT

The Judges of the normal Court system haven't had a say until recently on the legality of the programs. The first such review has come back as Unconstitutional, but that decision is on its way up the appeals system.

The Government has maintained that the programs are Constitutional, but they do everything possible to block review in open court.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. He performed a public service at great risk. He's a hero.

My mind hasn't changed.

[PragmaticLiberal]

24. Initially, I gave Snowden the benefit of the doubt but there was a turning point for me.

At one point he stated that he would never release anything that harmed the U.S and I respected that.

But then he turned me off by releasing info about our activities against other countries.

It was one thing when Snowden was discussing the NSA's activities in regard to our own citizens but then he started talking about our targeting of other countries/leaders.

Frankly, I didn't think this was at all necessary.

Yes, we spy on other countries/leaders. I don't think any DUer was really surprised about this. At least I hope they weren't.

Obviously, these countries spy on us as well...and Snowden knows this.


And let us not forget that Mr. Snowden while in China (Hong Kong to be exact) revealed the IP addresses of the computers in Hong Kong and China that the NSA hacked.

Some DUers are probably fine with this but I just don't happen to be one of them.



I'm not willing to call Snowden a traitor but he's not my "hero".

At best I'd say he's "morally ambiguous".

[Th1onein]

31. So, let me get this straight....

It's NOT okay to spy on millions of Americans,

But it IS okay to spy on the rest of the world's citizens?

Hmmm.....can't quite square that as consistent. Or rational. Are we Americans the only ones who have the right to privacy?

[Harmony Blue]

35. Yeah I am not following that one

spying on foreign citizens by our government isn't acceptable with me.

[MADem]

27. I thought he was a misguided young idealistic man at first, who thought that

telling the world was better than telling the Senate Intel Committee.

The more I learned about him, though, the more I've started to believe he is a turned asset; that he has been working for Putin all along--and probably getting paid very handsomely for his perfidy, too. I'm thinking he switched sides when he was working in Japan, and maybe earlier.

Running to Hong Kong, and while there, hiding in the Russian Consulate, just seems odd to me. Too odd to pass the smell test, frankly.

[okaawhatever]

41. I'm with you, except I thought he might have been compromised by China when he was in Japan. I

thought he left China and went to Russia to keep China from looking suspect.

When I read some of the things he had to say about America shortly after he dropped out of high school I realized he was "ripe for the pickin" so to speak. He had a fascination with Japanese culture and so on so I thought China was a natural choice for someone to might try to turn him. From what i understand China routinely tries to turn Japanese folks and vice versa.

[MADem]

46. The reason I say "Russia" is because when he got to Hong Kong

(the second time, not when he was working in Japan, and vacationing in HK) he ended up in the Russian Consulate, hiding out, pretty damn quick.

You don't get that comfy--comfy enough to take a room at their inn, as it were-- with an ideological adversary of your own nation quite that easily on first meeting--I'm guessing his handler was there, smoothing the way for him.

Perhaps his handler suggested he give the interview--and the intelligence information--to China to make it appear as if he were an "even-handed" leaker, and not one interested in giving Pootie a leg up on the world stage.

[okaawhatever]

55. Brilliant catch. I didn't realize he went to the Russian consulate once he arrived in Hong Kong. Now

that you mention it, Russia probably would have told him to head there if need be since he couldn't get to Russia without a visa. When he left the United States he had limited options since trying to get a visa would have set off red flags. Now I understand. Thanks for the info. i'm going to start looking into that angle more.

[MADem]

56. It came out fairly early but was lost in a lot of other coverage

Report: Snowden stayed at Russian consulate while in Hong Kong

MOSCOW — Before American fugitive Edward Snowden arrived in Moscow in June — an arrival that Russian officials have said caught them by surprise — he spent several days living at the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong, a Moscow newspaper reported Monday.

The article in Kommersant, based on accounts from several unnamed sources, did not state clearly when Snowden decided to seek Russian help in leaving Hong Kong, where he was in hiding to evade arrest by U.S. authorities on charges that he leaked top-secret documents about U.S. surveillance programs. ... Kommersant reported Monday that Snowden purchased a ticket June 21 to travel on Aeroflot, Russia’s national airline, from Hong Kong to Havana, through Moscow. He planned to fly from Havana to Ecuador or some other Latin American country.

That same day, he celebrated his 30th birthday at the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong, the paper said — although several days earlier he had had an anticipatory birthday pizza with his lawyers at a private house.

Kommersant cited conflicting accounts as to what brought Snowden to the consulate, on the 21st floor of a skyscraper in a fashionable neighborhood. It quoted a Russian close to the Snowden case as saying that the former NSA contractor arrived on his own initiative and asked for help. But a Western official also interviewed by the newspaper alleged that Russia had invited him.....

[RC]

29. Edward Snowden is a hero. General Keith Alexander is a lier and a criminal, who has built his own,

not so little fiefdom, at the expense of freedom and democracy world wide. The law was becoming what General Alexander said it was.
The trust in the United States government, such as it is after bu$h the lesser, has made even worse by the exposure of the extent of the NSA spying in violation of not only our own Constitution, but of International Law.

I reserved judgement at first, then decided Snowden did the correct thing. I have had no doubts since then. We all owe Edward Snowden a big debt of gratitude.
At the time, Manning was being given the deluxe whistleblower treatment by our government. Snowden had to have known this. So why would he do the same thing as Manning, by going through the proper channels? In fact, for Snowden, there were no proper channels.
The fact that Snowden is alive, relatively free and is still releasing information, against all the forces of the United States is a tribute to his intelligence. Snowden gave up a lot to save the rest of us, US and the world, from the Total Information awareness government, the United States was becoming.

[bhikkhu]

34. I've never been much of a fan

but I can say that he makes more sense to me now, and I have no problem with him. If he lit a fire under the NSA, that's fine, especially if all the publicity leads to a better system and more oversight. If it caused problems for Obama and the country's image, that's fine too; sometimes you just have to take your lumps and move on. If he winds up doing his best to take care of himself and winds up in a good situation, that's fine as well.

[Recursion]

39. It's not about Snowden and never was

Frankly his character and motives are completely opaque to me, and I keep running up against the problem that he revealed absolutely nothing about the agency he was actually an agent of (the CIA) and everything about that agency's main rival that he only contracted for (the NSA).

The recent revelation of the transparent physical tap within otherwise private networks was huge, and I'm mystified as to why that wasn't the first thing released, but that's a different issue...

[Jesus Malverde]

43. I haven't changed my feeling about Snowden. Greenwald is another story.

His creating this new company with Pierre Omidyar, is basically selling the snowden secrets to a silicon valley billionaire who may or may not release or promote them for the public good, if they get released at all...

Pierre Omidyar plunges first $50m into media venture with Glenn Greenwald

The whole Omidyar-Greenwald developments are unseemly and make me uncomfortable with an otherwise smashing narrative.

[davidpdx]

47. No, and it's unlikely I will ever change my mind

I think what he did was wrong.

[randome]

49. I wonder what his duped and abandoned fiance thinks of him.

Apparently, honesty and transparency does not apply to him on a personal level.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

57. She probably feels like the greatest "cover story" going.

I don't think she was terribly deep, ergo she was easily duped. She should get a publicist and write a book--she'd make a small fortune if she does it right.

[FarPoint]

51. I never supported Snowden....

not because of the NSA exposure exactly, but how he chose to expose the mess and who he is letting manipulate and use him. I'm sure top secret information has been placed into the hands of our enemy. He has hurt America.

[Vattel]

52. What enemy is that?