I'm a man...

[MrScorpio]

And there's very little that I can say to women about the effect of manliness on their everyday lives. Women experience it from sun up to sun down.

But I can say to some of the guys out there, who are feeling as if their own manliness is being impugned upon by mere women who deign to speak up and say that the effect of manliness on their own lives can be problematic…

Shut the fuck up.

Gawd, I hate that kind of whining.

Especially when it comes from people, whom by the mere fact that they were born a certain way, this bullshit that their privileged status doesn't cause problems.

In case the whiners out there haven't figured this out yet, your privileged status is like the air surrounding everyone. It's everywhere. Yet, that doesn't make it right.

I have absolutely no idea why it's a problem when women reject the practice of strange men who treat them like unclaimed property. Someone explain that shit to me, in English, if you don't mind.

Now, I want to point out a couple of things… Most women like guys and many of them don't mind if men talk to them. But, there is a right way to do that and there's a wrong way.

However, that does not mean that strange men should stare women down, like some hungry wolf stalking a fluffy bunny, or that men should clumsily and openly make rude and loud sexual proposals on the street.

Now, I need to point out the main problem here… Most men are not as skilled in communication as women. A lot of guys are really bad at it. And most women, especially the ones that like guys, are just sick and tired of dealing with bad communicators, especially when they come off as creepy and potentially threatening. But most of all, most women don't feel as if the intrinsically privileged position of men should be enough to compensate for the lack of male communication skills.

The solution to this problem comes in three mind-bogglingly simple steps:

- Men should talk to women as if they're human beings and not unclaimed sexual objects. Get your talk game straight.

- Next resign yourself to the fact that women, for whatever reason they choose, have the absolute right to reject men who make bad, unwanted, awkward and potentially threatening approaches… And there's nothing that the guy can do about it. Or just because women feel like it, those guys lose, simple as that.

- There's a big diff between looking at a woman who just happens to be out in public, and when some guy is ogling them like they're a plate of steak and fries. Figure out that difference, if you're a gawd-damned adult.

Lastly, to all the whiners out there, wake the fuck up and look around you. Someone is trying to explain how the world really is FOR THEM, and that whining is preventing that from getting through. The other part of "shut the fuck up," is "listen, gawd-dammit." Whining is not very sexy at all.

Now, who want's to be a sexy, non-threatening and not-lazily depending on their position of privilege kind of guy?

Anyone?

[yardwork]

1. We had our differences years ago, but lately I've been noticing that you rock.

Some home truths here. Good post.

[Ohio Joe]

2. Well said - K&R - nt

[Scuba]

3. Considering the way so many men treat women, it's a wonder they'll have anything to do with us.

Hopefully empathetic communications like your post make up for some of our dumbass brethern. Thanks MrScorpio.

[YoungDemCA]

4. K&R

nt

[A-Schwarzenegger]

5. Tell it.

[arcane1]

6. This man says "well said!"

[Brigid]

7. People have been reccing your post so fast . . .

That when I did it, it went instantly from 1 to 4.

[Harmony Blue]

8. To be honest....

"Shut the fuck up.

Gawd, I hate that kind of whining.

Especially when it comes from people, whom by the mere fact that they were born a certain way, this bullshit that their privileged status doesn't cause problems. "

Belittling people's feelings never works and shaming tactics don't either. Just my two cents.

[YoungDemCA]

11. If the shoe fits....

[Harmony Blue]

20. What are you saying?

Men must not be able to share their feelings or inner most fears? Your lack of empathy has been found to be wanting so it seems.

[YoungDemCA]

25. I said no such thing

The problem is, many if not most of the MRA types don't act in good faith. So maybe you can understand if we don't take their "feelings" very seriously.

[Harmony Blue]

28. There are no MRA's on DU

that is a shaming tactic to deflect from differing view points.

MRA's fall into two camps: Traditionalists (Tradcons) or those that want to roll back laws that favor women. Neither type of person exists on a site like this. I hope you have been educated.

[gollygee]

36. We just had a whole thread about "creep shaming"

I have an MRA in my family and I've never heard that word from anyone but him. Until today.

[Harmony Blue]

44. You must not interact

much with the public. Creep shaming isn't a new phenomena.

[gollygee]

46. The phrase is a made up MRA phrase

It is not a phenomena at all.

[Harmony Blue]

52. Just because MRAs use it often

doesn't mean it is theirs to use forever and ever or the concept hasn't existed before the infancy of the MRAs. Lexicon in our culture does change over time and in this case sexual attraction is a big part in how we perceive what others do to use positively and negatively. We are after all human beings that respond to visual stimuli.

[seabeyond]

53. when everything you say is pua mra talk, then people are going to call it. nt

[Harmony Blue]

54. So now it is PUA phrase?

Look different view points don't fit in neat little boxes and categories. The PUA argue that you can change a woman's mind if she isn't attracted to you with rigid steps and rules. I think that is wrong because if a woman doesn't find you attractive nothing you can say or do will change that. PUA rely on seeking female validation and that is why they often fail.

[seabeyond]

56. i told you the pua comment below. and up here a mra comment. hence, pua mra. i am very specific

when letting you know what you are quoting from.

basically saying, you are reading lots of mens sites.

[Harmony Blue]

62. I read alll feminist, traditionalists, etc sites on the web

I seek knowledge and to be frank I don't understand how feminists and mra rail against each other so much. You know my position very well that both movements are not currently popular because they are not inclusive enough. That has always been my position.

[seabeyond]

81. 3rd tried the inclusive and it failed. 4th is out there, loud, strong, smart and

ready to step up.

[Harmony Blue]

85. I disagree

I think the third wave is on the right track but needs a more coherent message like the 1st and 2nd wave. I do not know the position of the fourth wave so I will not comment.

[seabeyond]

88. it has failed. even the leaders have declared it a failure and done a 180.

[YoungDemCA]

41. Thanks for the laugh...

I needed that.

[niyad]

135. thank you for the funniest post I have seen today. you nearly owed me a keyboard.

[lumberjack_jeff]

179. I've posted polls asking that question.

no one has yet answered "yes".

Perhaps you could try asking, but you run the risk of losing your favorite strawman.

[Raine1967]

147. Oh bull-puckey.

MRA's do exist on DU.

[MrScorpio]

12. The last thing I hate to do is beat around the bush

And some people really need to feel ashamed of their down conduct. Especially when being enabled by their own status as a privileged person.

[YoungDemCA]

14. +1

[Harmony Blue]

16. I am not a privledged person

I am human being.

You have no empathy or shame because you belittle men to seek validation from others.

[MrScorpio]

21. But shouldn't men who behave badly feel ashamed?

And if it they're not, who better than another another man to point that fact out to them?

[Harmony Blue]

32. Men that behave badly have learned

they are rewarded far more than punished. That is why their bad behavior continues. Our society doesn't reward good behavior enough, so shaming will not change anything. It is a self realization or an epiphany one must realize that treating others with dignity is their best interest.

[seabeyond]

40. oh bullshit. more of the pua whine that only the bad boys get the hot chick, crap. nt

[Harmony Blue]

45. I am not whining

I am stating my opinion as to why men with bad behavior continue their bad behavior. Most human beings respond to incentives and rewards.

[seabeyond]

51. you are wrong. it is a bullshit meme that men who can not get women put out. and you added

another bogus argument taking that bad behavior off the men and throwing it right at the women. blame the women. every single time.

men are behaving badly? well fuck. it is the womens fault you know. cause really, they would not behave badly if they were not being rewarded by the women. cause really, men just LUV to listen to what women have to say. so if women said STOP, we all know that men would absolutely STOP.

ya

that argument flies.

[Harmony Blue]

55. It is not a blame at women

but since you want to take it in that direction. If our society shunned men with poor behavior by not rewarding them then we can make progress for all human beings. However since that bad behavior is glorified in movies and television this is what most young men and women identify with.

[seabeyond]

57. and that is what we are doing here. shunning. yet you cry out... foul. cant have it both ways

[Harmony Blue]

60. Telling men to shut up

is not shunning.

Not rewarding bad behavior is how you shun it.

[seabeyond]

61. blaming the women again? nt

[Harmony Blue]

63. Our (Men and women ) society

reward bad behavior. You keep insinuating things I have not posted.

[seabeyond]

83. ok. i will be open to what you are talking about.

because in many ways, i agree. as a society as a whole, we are failing. mostly i think, our children. so...

open

[YoungDemCA]

43. "Our society"...meaning?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

96. oh bullshit. historically, men who behave badly are not punished because

When they behave badly towards women, women have been unable to get justice. Women get blamed and punished for what men do to them.

Women getting involved in making laws and publicly demanding social changes that protect them and punish those who harm them is a relatively new phenomenon.

Men have for millenia and in most cultures grown up receiving special treatment, so that frequently they never learn to accept frustration, rejection, lack of attention and loss of gratification.

A man full of hormonal aggression who hasn't learned how to control his impulses and hasn't learned how to cope with frustrated desires is a dangerous person.

[seabeyond]

99. i love your voice. have i told you recently?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

104. oh my!! thank you sea!!!

Happy Solstice and Narwhals to you too!!!



http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018539954
(Read the whole thread too so cute.)

[seabeyond]

110. yu oh. just on the Op. k. i will read more. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

114. hee!

Narwhals !!!

[YoungDemCA]

154. Excellent post

Well said.

[raccoon]

162. I second that emotion. nt

[eridani]

143. I am a white human being. That makes me privileged

I wish I could take it off like one of the layers of my Pacific NW all-weather costume, but that is unfortunately not possible. But I can be aware of it and work against it.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. Thank you, MrScorpio n/t

[Codeine]

10. I'm the nerdiest, dorkiest, goofiest-lookin' guy around

and I still manage to figure out how to look at a woman in a respectful but interested manner and communicate in a fashion that doesn't make them reach for the pepper spray.

What on Earth is wrong with some folks?

[YoungDemCA]

15. I think a lot of it is insecurity...

You sound like you're fairly comfortable with your nerdiness/dorkiness/goofiness-as you should be!

Contrary to MRA propaganda: A lot of women LIKE nerdy men. And there are plenty of nerdy women, too!

As Zuckerberg's girlfriend Erica from "The Social Network" said, paraphrased, "Women don't like you, but it's not because you're a nerd...it's because you're an asshole!"

[AuntPatsy]

49. Wish I could recommend your post as well

[Rex]

100. They don't have any empathy imo.

Some folks only feel for themselves. They don't know what it is like to have feelings for others.

[boston bean]

13. nice post. i hope somethings get through.

If not, its still a good post.

[TBF]

17. Kind words and very well put -

thank you.

[M0rpheus]

18. Very well said.

[YoungDemCA]

23. If what they believe is hateful sexist bullshit, then yeah, they should shut the fuck up

You have the right to free speech. And others have the right to call you on it if that speech is hateful speech.

[MrScorpio]

24. Did you read it all the way to the end?

Just wondering.

[Harmony Blue]

26. It is ironic

and trying to shut down dialogue from men is not a good idea. It has been proven that men being able to discuss their feelings openly and not belittled has shown they are less likely to commit suicide. Men being shamed for opening up is not a new phenomena.

[YoungDemCA]

48. You're not "opening up" in good faith though...

You're whining about something-"creep shaming"-that is not a bad thing...unless you're a creep. And you're blaming feminists-and by extension, all women-for your hurt feelings.

Believe it or not, but the world does not revolve around male sexual entitlement. I know, shocking and disappointing. Welcome to a more humane world.

[Harmony Blue]

59. I am not whining and I am not blaming feminists

I share a different view point doesn't mean I assign blame on anyone. Shaming tactics by implying I am whining doesn't work or shut down my perspective as it only reinforces it. And we are not talking male sexual entitlement in this thread. I am addressing the idea that men must shut up and stop whining so they can appear to be more attractive? Why?

[justiceischeap]

66. Well, first off, no one finds whiners attractive, except maybe other whiners

I didn't see your post in the other thread I think you've been referring to but I do have to ask, if a guy is acting like a creep, should we not call him on it? If I saw a woman acting like a creep I'd call her own it? Creepy people are just that, creepy and no one should be subjected to creepiness.

And just FYI, there's a difference between expressing your opinion and then having someone call out that opinion. It's called debate. Some people do it better than others but it's still debate. If you can't handle the fire...

[Harmony Blue]

80. Please identify the people that are whining?

All I see are different view points.

[libodem]

67. Yes, please be vulnerable

And share your feelings so a woman can tell you it makes her sick to see a man be weak.

I posted a Brene' Brown link in the feminism group. Not one comment or rec. Nobody around here wants the courage to be vulnerable, either sex.

Just keep fighting. Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck must be laughing their assess off when they see what goes on here. It's hard to tell if posters are serious or a parody of how the right sees feminism.

[pintobean]

31. It's just whining about whining about whining

with some stfu thrown in. I think those are the new exclamation points for the digital era.

[treestar]

171. It's just a saying. Everyone knows no one has to stop talking

It's just a way of expressing disagreement.

[question everything]

22. As a start. Stop with the pornography

While some women may enjoy it, in general it is offensive and demeaning to women.

That the administration tolerates it is a shame.

That it is accepted when it is a "documentary" is lame. The Swift Boat was a "documentary," too, about Kerry in Vietnam.

When you complain about a pron, or when you are a juror, please remember this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

Don't post "shock content" or porn.

Do not post or link to extreme images of violence, gore, bodily functions, pain, or human suffering for no purpose other than to shock and disgust. Do not post or link to pornography.

[MrScorpio]

27. I'm sorry… Are you saying that I've been posting porn?

I'm trying to figure what you're talking about.

[question everything]

86. Sorry, no. "You" refer to DU

that recently has been wallowing in porn.

Please accept my apologies for not better clarifying.

[MrScorpio]

95. Actually, I think porn has its place...

I just don't think that that place is here on DU.

But that's a conversation for another day.

[seabeyond]

30. are you talking kishito itto or whomever? nt

[question everything]

177. Yes. (nt)

[davidpdx]

141. I have a pretty low tolerance for shock content as a juror

no matter what it is. The problem is you get 3, 4 or 5 other numbnuts on the jury, then you have the people who are at the opposite end out numbered. Shock content is a fairly vague notion. What is shocking to some, isn't to most others. It seems like it should be straight forward, but it really isn't.

[seabeyond]

29. i talked to at least 5 men out and about shopping tonight. it was all fun, play, happy and we all

left with smiles.

it is not a tough one.

[loli phabay]

38. 5guys, i dont know what to say. ;)

[seabeyond]

42. see, the tough part

is when one has talked pm, then it is tough to leave stuff off the board.

[loli phabay]

47. on this i agree, its like talking in person and then through a third party.

[CrispyQ]

176. I will agree it's not a tough one, but not everyone is raised the same way,

or the way I put it when discussing dogs, not all of them are properly socialized. My guess is a lot of these types of men have issues communicating with almost everyone. And I'll bet, if you just taught them some social graces, charm school they used to call it, it would solve the communication problems for many of them. "Warm chatter" I've heard it called. How to engage in conversation. There was an excellent "Northern Exposure" episode on the art of conversation.

Then there are the hateful ones & them I write off. Life's too short to deal with them.

Merry Christmas, you!

[benld74]

33. Well said, well stated, well spoken!! Agreed 110%

[TDale313]

34. Fantastic post. Thank you.

[MadrasT]

35. I fucking love you right now.

[AuntPatsy]

37. Thank you

[gollygee]

39. I guess you could use another K&R

Though those who need to hear it the most will be the loudest voices dismissing it.

[Triana]

50. THANK YOU n/t

[Curmudgeoness]

58. This is not the first time that I have said this to you,

but I love you, Mr. Scorpio. I would probably be married if I met someone like you.

[The2ndWheel]

64. I think a lot gets lost on a message board

Discussing most topics, but especially complex ones, don't really work. Not that it works all that well in real life either. Too much can be missed.

I'm pretty sure very few men have a problem with women rejecting the practice of strange men who treat them like unclaimed property. I would also say that few men would say that strange men should stare women down, like some hungry wolf stalking a fluffy bunny, or that men should clumsily and openly make rude and loud sexual proposals on the street. Few men want to be that guy. Whatever percentage of a few billion men is going to be a lot of men, relatively speaking, but few men want to be that guy.

Now, I need to point out the main problem here… Most men are not as skilled in communication as women. A lot of guys are really bad at it. And most women, especially the ones that like guys, are just sick and tired of dealing with bad communicators, especially when they come off as creepy and potentially threatening. But most of all, most women don't feel as if the intrinsically privileged position of men should be enough to compensate for the lack of male communication skills.

Most men are bad at communicating, and most women are sick of it of dealing with it, however...

Men should talk to women as if they're human beings and not unclaimed sexual objects. Get your talk game straight.

since most men are not skilled at communication, even if they want to talk to women as if they're human beings, they still might come off weird, so...

Next resign yourself to the fact that women, for whatever reason they choose, have the absolute right to reject men who make bad, unwanted, awkward and potentially threatening approaches… And there's nothing that the guy can do about it. Or just because women feel like it, those guys lose, simple as that.

if this is the reality, and it is, men that are not very skilled in communication won't get much practice, therefore...

There's a big diff between looking at a woman who just happens to be out in public, and when some guy is ogling them like they're a plate of steak and fries. Figure out that difference, if you're a gawd-damned adult.

while there is a big difference between these two things, men aren't very skilled in communication, and if there's a discussion on the topic, outside of just shutting the fuck up and not really being part of a conversation, trying to explain how the world is for them is going to tend to get awkward or weird, because it all just comes out as whining because of the privileged status.

Plus, like I said, you get a complicated topic on a message board, where anyone and everyone can join into the conversation, it's bound to become a giant mess. You're looking at, and typing on, and possibly thinking about, a screen. People respond to typed words on a screen. Possibly the most abstract form of communication humanity has come up with so far. It doesn't lend itself to empathy, any which way you go. Things have a way of ending up as a caricature to some extent.

[justiceischeap]

68. And there are some people on this specific message board

that this is a hot button issue for them and it brings out the worst in them. They may very well be very decent human beings in real life but the anonymity of a message board allows them to act like a**holes.

[KitSileya]

158. I haven't participated much in these threads.

This is because I can fairly guess that very few of the most prolific posters on the men's side will be willing to say as a corollary to their claims that 'men don't know better, they don't know how not to behave as creeps, they don't know how to express emotions, it's in their nature' - let us work together with feminists to create a culture where boys aren't taught to behave like creeps, where men are taught to express their emotions, all their emotions, not just anger, appropriately, where men are taught that they aren't animals who cannot overcome their nature.

I know men can do better than much of the behavior exhibited by many men in public. I know it because I know and love a lot of men who don't treat women as things or less than. Why on earth would I hold men in general to a lesser standard, in essence treat them as less capable of controlling their own behavior, or less capable of empathy or of working for less privileged groups in society? That would be truly "hating men." I think they are fully functional human beings who can join in and make our world better for everyone.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. I have one, selfish issue about this.

Just in that if males are the dominant sex now, what lies in store for me in the future when the pendulum shifts the other way? Will we go to a neutral ground, or are men in general establishing a precedent that's going to super-suck for me, personally, in the future?


But it's just a petty, personal fear, and best staved off by doing the right thing, and promoting equality now, rather than after the shift. Because it will happen, in my lifetime, that I am sure of.

[Harmony Blue]

69. Only males that are dominant are those with the 1% wealth in our country

The majority of voters in the U.S. are female and the majority of college graduates are also female. It is the year 2013 and the power that people believe most males wield isn't as ironclad as many still like to believe.

[Skittles]

75. "accept your roll is this"

you and Mrs, ryan_cats sound like real winners

[ryan_cats]

82. What roll is that?

What roll is that? Yes, my roll is ensuring women are kept bare foot and pregnant for which I receive a large NWO salary.
Grow some thicker skin, realize that everything isn't about you and I love how you can judge my wife and me after over 40 years of life. I'm tired of people whining about how they have the right to not be offended. No, no you do not.
To add fuel to the fire, maybe the women complaining aren't getting the gazes they want and now translate that to man hatred. So sad.

[seabeyond]

89. lol. throw a rant about the whining as you get all defenisve about "judging" your wife when you put

her out there. grow a thicker skin

[Skittles]

93. THANK YOU

although I honestly did not believe him for one second

[seabeyond]

101. thinking. i find it particularly funny he uses his wife to hide behind as he calls women chicks,

both slut shames and prude shames women. tell them to grow a thicker skin while insulting all us behind his woman. what a fuckin hoot

[Skittles]

102. you know it

[seabeyond]

108. some times it is simply too easy.

[ryan_cats]

106. I'm not the one with boiling blood pressure. This makes me laugh.

I'm not the one with boiling blood pressure. This makes me laugh. People being oppressed by the man and by men, stop the perpetually offended lameness. You don't have the right to not be offended.

You and your fellow travelers seem to have learned and are implementing the tactics of McCarthy.

[AtheistCrusader]

107. When in doubt, double down?

If it works for you I guess...

[seabeyond]

111. cause his woman says so.... dontcha know. now all you wimminz... hush. funny. i gotta wrap some

presents.

[ryan_cats]

112. I'm not in doubt. I am a man who knows how things work.

I'm not in doubt. I am a man who knows how things work.
The people gnashing their teeth and suffering from an attack of the vapors are the very real reason people don't take the left seriously.
Another post has climate deniers being unable to post. How soon for the book burning?
Herr, Goebbels is impatient.

[seabeyond]

115. gnashing their teeth and suffering from an attack of the vapors

ya. your da man.

[Skittles]

130. HE'S A MAN WHO "KNOWS HOW THINGS WORK"

OMG

[seabeyond]

132. or his wife does, anyway. lol. nt

[Skittles]

145. yes.....his "wife"

who will always have....identical views to his!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

116. "I am a man who knows how things work."

We'll see what the jury says about that.

[ryan_cats]

125. SO, failing to come up with a compelling article, or reasoning, you resort to censoring

SO, failing to come up with a compelling article, or reasoning, you resort to censoring. Last refuge of a scoundrel.

[AtheistCrusader]

126. Oh yes, I'm a scoundrel for alerting on a clear rules violation/personal attack post.

(not that specific post, of course)

Edit: Welp, survey says, 'you get away with it this time'.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

118. McCarthy, Goebbels...

what could possibly be next?

[treestar]

174. You have the right to offend?

And of course your wife does not mind being stared at by strange men - she's that tough.

[AtheistCrusader]

189. A regular roll of barbed wire, that one.

[ryan_cats]

117. Logic is not a clear issue for you...

Logic is not a clear issue for you, you run on emotion and playing the victim and that gets old. Waaawaa wat wa...

[seabeyond]

121. oh... you got me, straight to the heart, stumblin' back. what a hoot you are. nt

[Skittles]

92. LOL, you poor thang

for someone who gets upset about someone "judging", you sure have no problem showcasing your shortcomings by judging all women. Here, have a roll:

[ryan_cats]

109. Oh my, with a statement like that, if I was one of those thin skin whiner/ perpetually offended.

Oh my, with a statement like that, if I was one of those thin skin whiner/ perpetually offended types, I'd kill myself.
My shortcomings? Coming from someone with delusions of adequacy, too funny. I'm not losing sleep over it.

[seabeyond]

113. now you are in trouble. nobody, and i mean nobody, insults our beloved skittles like that

EVERYONE loves skittles.

he, did your wife tell you to get nasty now.

[ryan_cats]

120. Really, so some posters are more equal than others?

Really, so some posters are more equal than others?
Based on what I read from you, you are on a man hating kick, sad really.
What is skittles going to do, use harsh language?

[seabeyond]

122. they are liked more than others, anyway... lol. nt

[Skittles]

127. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Sheldon Cooper]

161. Hahahaha!!

He is a MAN goddamnit, and he knows what his 'roll' is. By gawd.

[chervilant]

168. Is it a Kaiser roll?

Nope, couldn't be. Not with the flower image on top--too feminine for a MAN.

[treestar]

173. Had to have someone resort to that one

Are feminists mostly ugly women just not getting enough attention from you?

[treestar]

172. Love how they always use their "wife"

as this tough woman who is fine with all the oppression. She has a thick skin and she can handle it. She's really in charge.

[MrScorpio]

76. Well, I guess you're going out to last minute shop for burkhas this holiday, if you haven't already

Anyway, in spite of how women dress, you and I both know that such a thing is not a carte blanche for some asshole to be an asshole.

Also, how would a woman KNOW that the man leering at them is not a potential rapist?

Why should a woman have fear for her well being when she's out in public, no matter what she's wearing? Because it really doesn't matter what a woman is wearing whenever some predator has her in his sights.

"Chicks…" I kind of saw that coming up front.

[ryan_cats]

77. Project much?

Project much? This is less about feminism than shouting down opponents who don't buy into your B.S.

[MrScorpio]

91. And what bullshit is that?

I'm not the one saying that women are inviting harassment because I think they dress immodestly.

I'm saying that how they dress shouldn't matter at all.

I have a problem with people who victim blame.

That shit isn't right at all.

[davidn3600]

84. Everyone is at risk of a crime when out in public

A man, a woman, a child, an elderly person, everyone can be a victim of a crime at anytime. It has nothing to do with what we are wearing or who we are. Practically all of us will be a victim of some kind of crime at some point in our life.

When you go out in public...and it's a very crowded place. Do you tend to keep a better watch on your belongings like your wallet? Why do you do that? Because you know it's very easy to pick your pocket. And you know there are people that are very skilled at doing that. And you know the best place for that to happen is a crowded environment. So your defenses go up when those conditions are met.

Should you have to get defensive like that? No. But we dont live in a perfect world. We live in a violent world with crime all around us.

[MrScorpio]

94. Is there a point that relates to what I'm talking about here somewhere?

Because I'm wondering what you're meaning in regards to the conversation at hand.

[seabeyond]

87. chick.perpetually offended. jealous? so. you slut shame the girls dress, asking for it. you prude

shame the women that speak out about this.

basically, you shame a womans sexuality either way, to validate men.

gosh. so glad you shared what your wife had to say.

[AtheistCrusader]

105. "Tramp stamp"? My wife has a full back tattoo. If you catch a glimpse of the lower portion of it

that is not carte blanch for you to leer like an asshole, or whatever you meant by 'all the attention she gets'.

Tramp stamp. Deserves. Dress like a champ. Angst. Chicks. Thicker skin. Sly gaze.

Fucking BINGO

[seabeyond]

124. his wife is really pumping him up as we speak. lmfao. nt

[NuclearDem]

133. Disgusting.

Utterly disgusting sexist bile. Hope you're proud of yourself.

[seabeyond]

134. his wife is. she told him to say it. lol. he da man. nt

[niyad]

139. just as a matter of curiosity, are you intentionally misusing "roll"? have to admit, it makes your

post very entertaining.

[WilliamPitt]

71. This.

[Skittles]

72. SPOKEN BY A REAL MAN!!!

yes INDEED

[Squinch]

73. Great post, and a lot of great comments in reply.

Today, DU makes me happy.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

74. It has been encouraging, yes.

[Jester Messiah]

78. Seems like a lot of whining coming from both directions.

It's a fairly pathetic spectacle. I expect I'll start to see DU links on r/tumblrInAction soon.

[Rex]

79. I am a man and was raised by a lot of powerful, female, role models.

Mom, aunts, great aunts, grandmothers, great grandmothers. I am blessed to be born into a big family that had long longevity. Both parents cooked and cleaned and did everything around the house equally, still do. I would say now that dad is older, he spends more time in the garden.

I don't really know what to say about all that other stuff. Most of my life in relationships it has been and and is about cooperation. Like I said in another thread - it all comes down to intentions imo.

Do you intend to treat a person like a human being with feeling and emotions or are you going to treat that person like a chair or coffee table and place little or no value on them as a human?

I would say Rush Limbaugh is a great example of a man that is a shame to mankind and embarrasses the species in general. Newt strikes me as another.

[seabeyond]

90. +1. nt

[Rex]

97. Have a great Christmas sea!

I hope you and your family have a great holidays!

[seabeyond]

103. ahhh, thank you. we will and you too....

[BlancheSplanchnik]

98. Huge kick and rec--right on point, Mr. Scorpio.

[Nye Bevan]

119. What about DUers who think of Asian women as "Spicy Thai babes"?

Isn't that description a little more "sexual object" than "human being"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1562068

[MrScorpio]

142. And what's date on that... Nine and half years ago?

Just like yesterday, right?

Like a person couldn't have changed their outlook over the intervening years.

Thanks for finding that... That guy was pretty much a sexist, and I needed the reminder about how I was like, most definitely.

I still like sex though... I'm just not as keen as being so sexist about it these days.

[seabeyond]

148. i was going to ask how far back the poster had to reach. but then, i figured

you can address yourself. ya. i took note.

and i appreciate

[Iggo]

123. Huge K and fucking R.

[madrchsod]

128. respect yourself....

[NuclearDem]

131. The one good thing about this day is that this OP got more recs

than all the terrible, sexist, mansplaining OPs.

Absolutely wonderful OP MrScorpio.

[Kurska]

136. "Shut the fuck up" Sorry no, I have every right to discuss issues relating to my gender.

Men of course have greater societal power than women and this is unfair, yet men do have some issues that plague them distinct and different from those that plague women (just as women have some issues that are distinct and different than those faced by men).

I'm a gay man and issues of masculinity and what it means to be a male in our society matter deeply to me. I have every right to consider the problems facing my gender, especially in the context of gender relations.

My voice is just as valid and valuable in discussions of gender issues as other people. I contend it would be impossible to reach any kind of gender harmony in our society without masculine input along with feminine.

[niyad]

137. k and r for this excellent post. judging by this, and the one I read just prior, I have missed a

very entertaining day here on du.

[cthulu2016]

138. "deign" does notmean what Clarence Thomas thinks it means

[Number23]

144. There is NOTHING sexier than a man smart, confident and capable enough to communicate

Who is smart enough to enjoy the "flavor" of words either to make someone laugh or even to tell them how turned on they are. Which is why authors and poets (including music writers) have some of the best looking spouses. Jay Z anyone?

K&R

[NuclearDem]

149. Wow, you didn't last long did you?

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. You're right. DU is rife with sexism.

So how does one talk to "spicy thai babes"?

Being lectured about senstitivity by that poster? Priceless.

[seabeyond]

151. he has already been called out on that. how long ago is it? i would much prefer a man that shifted

his position than one that blindly stands firm to the determent of others.

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. The statute of limitations clock restarted at "shut the fuck up". n/t

[seabeyond]

153. he addressed it years ago. and has since shifted position. so no, you would be wrong lumberjack

what one felt now years ago, and no longer today, is irrelevant.

[opiate69]

155. Lol.

[BainsBane]

160. That's one way of making clear

You have absolutely nothing to say about what was a very sensible and truthful OP.

[YoungDemCA]

156. Maybe some deserve lecturing about sensitivity..

Particularly those who are in denial about misogyny and sexism in general, who refuse to see it, even after it's constantly pointed out to them.

[MrScorpio]

157. What's great about this is that everyone can see that I understand the mindset. I it had then

And I would hope that your point is to highlight that my own mindset at THAT time was improper, which of course, it was.

It just so happens that in the interim I've had some eye opening.

But none of this excuses the fact that women are entitled to be treated like human beings. Which is my current state of mind.

Unless your own point is to disagree with that particular point of view which I now hold and you're siding with the point of view which I've held in the past... What's the point of bringing this up again?

So which one is it? The MrScorpio of 9 and 1/2 years ago, or the MrScorpio of today?

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. It's transparent and cynical pandering.

Hopping on the men are vile, wicked and depraved bandwagon may very well be a great way to build DU cred, but the Bob Dole errr Lumberjack_Jeff of today AND the Lumberjack_Jeff of 10 years ago both see it as ill-intentioned pandering.

Looking at women may often be considered rude, and even may sometimes be intended as rude, but the importance of the topic did not deserve this... specifically YOUR degree of man bashing, white knighting and condescending dickishness.

Of course women deserve to be treated like human beings. What would your reaction be to an OP from a man complaining about their own objectification? "Grow up" perhaps? "Man up" maybe? "Grow a pair" probably? In our community, it isn't women at risk of being dehumanized, and I don't have much respect for anyone whose interests in any topic is limited to correctly identifying the side that's winning.

The ultimate expression of respect isn't pandering, it's disagreement. It respects both yourself as well as the person who you are taking seriously.

[MrScorpio]

178. So are you implying that I haven't had a change of mind over the last ten years?

Besides, unless you're engaging in the kind of behavior that I've mentioned, why are you bothered by the fact that I'm pointing out that men shouldn't defend it?

Would you rather than I defer to my own privileged status as a man and try to find a way to justify harassment and unwanted sexist treatment of women by strange men?

And besides, I think you get me wrong. It's my own well established position that mutually consent behavior between adults is an open book. IF, let's a woman WELCOMES leers, WELCOMES blatantly sexual comments and behavior from a man whom she chooses to have it from, I think it's all fine and dandy.

I'm just saying that there's absolutely no excuse for doing that to any woman who's not consenting or welcoming that sort of thing. And I'm saying that men, especially due to the fact that men are the privileged class in this society, have no justification to use that status in order to circumvent any women's prerogative to object to rude and unwanted attention. There's absolutely no excuse for it either.

If any man, on the other hand feels that he's being objectified, of course he has every right to demand that it stop. There's no confusion about this on my part. All objectified persons have rights too, be they men or women.

When it comes to the difference between simply looking at a woman and leering at her, especially if the man makes a point of doing it in such and obvious way that the woman is sure to notice, to me indicates a basic difference in expectation. Whereas the looker doesn't necessarily objectify a person sexually, whether or not the look could possibly lead to any kind of encounter, there really is no degree of unilateral expectation there. The person who leers, however, does so without any regard to how the person they're leering at feels, and with that leer creates a one way expectation of a subsequent encounter, whether wanted or unwanted. If it unwanted, then clearly, we're going headlong into violation territory.

That sort of thing is sure to create discomfort for the person being leered at within their own space. Since, that sort of thing won't lead to any kind of mutually consented encounter, it would lead to the person being viewed as an object to speculate whether this stranger leering at them could or would escalate that unwanted attention into hostility, insults or the threat of physical danger.

Now, as you know, because of the way that victim blaming is so rampant in our society, there's a good chance that the person, who escalates unwanted attention into physical danger, they could get off scot free. They could claim that the an assault that they have committed was in fact consensual behavior and there's stands a good chance that they would be believed. The person being assaulted could feel so ashamed of what happened to them that they would choose not to report it. They could even rationalize the assault by thinking they've invited it in some way and feel ashamed for that.

Plus, there's the prevalent idea that a woman's dress or occupation makes her an open target. She was "asking" for it, in the mind of the person who assaulted her. That's pretty dehumanizing, is it not?

You know, I probably could not have written all the stuff up above ten years ago with the understanding that I have now. Ten years ago I probably couldn't have fathomed that sexism, especially public displays without regard to whomever, was wrong. I would have had a hard time understanding the different between abuse and what's considered consensual rough sex ten years ago. However, in all of this time I've taken it upon myself to become educated and comprehending of a lot of different things. I was wrong ten years ago, I know that. I have no qualms about saying it.

And it was never my point that all men are inherently bad, but I do object to men who do bad things and other men who go out of their way to enable bad behavior. Especially when that enabling is used under cover of privileged male status.

One last thing. What there seems to be missing here is a discussion about the choices that women have when it comes to any kind of attention. Quite simply, most women who engage in mutually consensual behavior create an entire multitude of possible outcomes. The point should be to ensure that any woman, who's desired by a potential partner, is allowed to feel comfortable enough to do as both of them would please. It's give and take. Of course, to get to that point it's important to establish a mutually consensual relationship at the start. Create a safe place, as it were.

That will not not certainly come about if one side is doing any kind of objectifying without any regards to the wishes of the other.

And on the other hand, unwanted attention and any kind of escalation has nothing more than a severely limited degree of outcomes in store… None of them good, many quite horrible.

That's my point and I don't think I'm pandering to anyone because I'm making it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. Okay, perhaps I've misjudged you.

You're talking to liberals and progressives here, not a group of homo erectus, and since I know "you're a gawd-damned adult" I think you "can figure out that difference".

Let's go back to the OP. Can you list for me DU's "privileged whiners" who "look at women like a wolf stalking prey" and who need reminding that they are human beings?

If you didn't have anyone in mind that needed this reputation-polishing lecture, then I stand by what I said. It's pandering by embracing the strawman that was the catalyst for the current clusterfuck.

The accepted frame of gender stereotypes at DU is dependent on pathologizing and ascribing the worst possible motivations for every bit of typical male activity.

If I'm not a creep, why should I be offended? Let me answer that with a question. How much tolerance do you think DU would have for anyone giving DU's women advice on how to not be a "harpy", "bitch" or "shrew?"

Some forms of gendered attacks are obviously okay.

[MrScorpio]

184. I was speaking against a general mindset, not anyone in particular

I figured that anyone who would neither engage or enable said behavior wouldn't have any problems agreeing with me.

However, I did expect those who would disagree with me would figure out ways to make excuses about why I was wrong and those excuses would lead to various types of justification for bad behavior.

A few took the bait and a discussion ensued.

It's as simple as that.

[BainsBane]

159. Thank God for a voice of reason

You summarize the issue perfectly. I can see that you like women, and they return the sentiment, with good reason. I hope some here are taking notes.

[DLevine]

163. Thank you, MrScorpio. Excellent post. nt

[raccoon]

164. Great post. Recd. nt

[Little Star]

165. k&r

[Bluenorthwest]

166. Well, you are a straight man.

These heterosexualist threads that define one gender exclusively by the reaction of the other gender are something to behold.

[MrScorpio]

167. If you'd like...

Later on I post another thread about my own perspective about heterosexualism.

I can only speak for myself and what I can do to be an eye opener for others, if possible.

Those are my limitations.

[treestar]

175. FFS

Can't straight people argue amongst themselves about straight issues? You simply can't sit by or say something about it? Everything I mean everything has to be about gay people with you. Post another thread. I guess we are homophobic because now we're talking about relationship between straight people.

[wryter2000]

170. I wish I could kiss you.

Men should talk to women as if they're human beings and not unclaimed sexual objects.

I could not have put this better. Thank you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

181. Mission accomplished, Mr Scorpio. n/t

[wryter2000]

185. Because I'll never meet Mr. Scorpio

I doubt very much he wrote the OP to get a kiss from me. I'm probably old enough to be his mother, so it's unlikely we'd be right for each other, anyway.

I do get the feeling that if we did meet, Mr. Scorpio and I would have an interesting conversation, and he wouldn't be looking through me as if I didn't exist because I wasn't young and pretty. He might be interested in me as a person rather than as a receptacle for his lust.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

186. what an incredibly shallow and petulant thing to say.

Is Mr. Scorpio getting positive attention while you aren't? Is Mr. Scorpio earning the respect of men and women on this board in a way that you never do?

Are you resentful because Mr. Scorpio is the kind of real mensch who becomes a better, wiser more humble person over time? While you are perpetually offended that women discuss how sexism affects us in daily life?

"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." - - Muhammed Ali

[tavalon]

182. One of the greater things about middle age,

is that men have discovered my eyes. They look me in the eyes instead of the breasts while talking to me.

Because I remember you from a march in DC, you've got street cred with me. I felt comfortable with you from the get go. You and I talked like two humans who held a common cause. For me, that's all it really takes, for people to treat me as a human and I hand it back.

Funny, I can't even remember what all we talked about. I just remember that you were (are) a good egg.

[MrScorpio]

187. Thanks very much! nt

[Feral Child]

183. Well, I'm a man...

I spell it M...A...N...

[XRubicon]

188. Sorry... Im a man too

I don't need your stereotypes.