Bikes need to stop at red lights like cars

[Duckhunter935]

Helps make everyone safe.

[lostincalifornia]

1. At least in California they do. They have to abide by the same laws as cars, including the use of

alcohol

[OmahaBlueDog]

5. That's the "law" in most places, but it isn't widely obeyed

Note: I am a cyclist

For years, I've heard the mantra "Share the road" with respect to bicyclists. In most places, they are allowed the same rights to the road as motor vehicles, with the exceptions of major highways. However, most bicyclists want it both ways; they want to "share the road", but they also want to ignore whatever traffic laws don't suit them -- like running lights; riding down the wrong side of the street; an riding on sidewalks and across crosswalks.

Bottom line: if cyclists want the respect of motorists on the road, they need to be held to the same rules as motorists. JMHO.

[Packerowner740]

21. Exactly the way it should be.

[Chan790]

25. Agreed.

I used to be a cyclist. My Meniere's makes riding a bike impossible now between the HoH and the balance.

Maybe I can find a workable commuter trike?


This is the Mitka, a hybrid electric/pedal trike that unfortunately never made it to market. I'd be happier than a pig in poop if I could own one.

[Ms. Toad]

29. Commuter trikes exist.

I just bought a recumbent (bike) because of 11 months of constant vertigo (not Meneire's). I refused to lose one more thing to the vertigo - and while medication stopped the carousel effect, it left me prone to unpredictably being thrown off balance. The recumbent bike allowed me to reliably plop my feet on the ground and keep my balance whenever I stopped (at a red light, stop sign, or otherwise ) It also turns out that (independent of the unpredictable dizziness/being off balance, the neck position on my old bike aggravates my vertigo enough that it gave me breakthrough vertigo - so REALLY not a good idea. Fortunately, several months of PT has mostly chased it away (but not enough that I expect to be able to ride a road bike again).

With Meneire's you could probably still manage a trike - as long as you can be close to vertical with support. If you're used to a road bike, you'll be giving up some speed & power because of the wheel size and standard gearing - but you can customize the gearing and recover part of that. You should also look into the ELF. http://www.organictransit.com/

I feel for you. At least with Meneire's you likely have bouts of vertigo free time between periods of activity. My vertigo was constant - from September 25 until August 21 the next year I had no more than 2 days free from vertigo - or the side effects of the medication I used to keep it at bay.

[Shankapotomus]

38. There is another

Don't know if you've heard of this one. The Drymer.



I imagine the Mitka would have been expensive and the Drymer is no exception.

Site: www.bit.ly/1l5JQ2E (translated)

There is also the Elf:



Actually, cheaper than the Drymer and has solar panels.

Website: http://www.organictransit.com/

[hfojvt]

53. I think it is widely obeyed

as a cyclist I have run perhaps 10,000 stop signs, most of them 4-way stops, and zero red lights.

Why? Because typically it is suicide to run a red light.

It might be safe to "jaywalk" a red light on your bicycle. That is, come to a complete stop, check carefully to make sure it is clear, and then cross the empty street, but almost never safe to run one. I don't believe it is common. Although one dillweed did roll through one forcing me to stop on my bike.

[JDPriestly]

58. If a bicyclee rider wants to be on streets with cars, they should be required to buy insurance,

register their bikes, buy license plates and have big lights front and back.

[JDPriestly]

57. The laws are not enforced as frequently with bike riders as with car drivers in L.A.

[Atman]

76. And stay out of the left lane!

Oops, sorry...wrong thread.

[maxsolomon]

2. 2 ton internal combustion powered vehicles need to stop running over pedestrians and bicyclists.

Helps make everyone safe.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. bicyclists also need to share the road. I saw one jerkwad almost get run over by MAX light rail

because he thought he'd be cute and cut in front of an oncoming train in downtown PDX and his tire got caught in the sunk track groove. If he had been taken out..that was 100% ON HIM

[maxsolomon]

24. You know, this is a pointless thread.

Scolding bicyclists for being the scofflaws, while motorcycle/auto/truck drivers are scoffing laws in vastly greater number and with vastly deadlier consequences, isn't changing minds or enlightening the populace. It's like prosecuting people bringing pen knives through the TSA while the criminally insane are toting firearm arsenals around to sell at flea markets.

Bicyclists know they need to follow laws. Most do. Some don't, and if they get run over by a MAX train, yes, it's on them. Just like it's on every bonehead who turns left in front of one or races a train at a crossing.

Or for that matter, every defiant jaywalker who slouches across downtown Seattle streets, oblivious to lights, glaring or cursing at drivers for honking.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. "Most do. Some don't"

I'm not sure that is true at all. In fact in my neck of the woods if cars ran the red as often as cyclists do there would be accident galore.

I drive as well as cycle. I wait on the red in both instances. I've seen many cyclists that don't even think twice as they cruse through the red or stop signs.

Point being I have seen countless cyclists doing very stupid things with only one pull over by the police.


Did I mention I am a cyclist.

[1000words]

3. If it has wheels and you are on the road ...

You are bound by the same laws as every other vehicle

[WolverineDG]

4. Bikes are vehicles & have to follow the rules of the road

just like cars.

At least in Texas. In theory.

[indie9197]

6. $380 fine seems kinda excessive. n/t

[1000words]

7. I was once fined $250 for not having a public transit fare ticket.

Ticket dispensers were broken. Marshal didn't care. First and only offense.

[Duckhunter935]

8. only if it is enforced

Does not seem to be. Cars cost even more and I do think that is enforced more often.

[LisaLynne]

9. Yes they do and most bicyclists know this. nt

[Duckhunter935]

11. just not here

This guy is a hoot

[LisaLynne]

12. Yeah and I can find a bunch of people in cars who don't follow the rules, too. nt

[Duckhunter935]

18. Yep

Does not make either right

[NYC_SKP]

17. For people who might wonder what "the Wiggle" is, here's a link:

It's a route in San Francisco that is the flattest route between Duboce Park and the Panhandle.

http://www.sfbike.org/?ThinkBike_Wiggle

[onehandle]

13. Yes. Bicyclists suck and are a threat to the 'merican SUV way of life.

Please tell us how global warming is a myth.

[former9thward]

15. Asking bicyclists to follow the law is the same as denying global warming..

Yeah, ok...

[hfojvt]

54. well if a bicyclist actually HAD to stop for every stop sign

then it would be such a pain in the a$$ to bike anywhere that nobody would ever do it.

The downtown is too much of a pain with all the stop signs.

You know why all those stop signs are there?

Basically because it is the only way to stop car drivers from speeding through a twenty mph zone (other than speed bumps).

As it is, most cars usually stop one car length PAST the stop sign - which is kinda nerve wracking when one is on a bicycle with the right of way.

The great thing about bicycling is - if the car driver makes a mistake then I the cyclist am maimed or killed, whereas if I, the cyclist, make a mistake, then, once again, I, the cyclist am maimed or killed.

[LisaLynne]

16. +1

Not to mention heart disease being the leading cause of death in the country. Pfft. Naw, better to just make fun of those who are active.

[CreekDog]

22. pedestrians suck too, didn't you get the memo?

i've gotten multiple copies of it in my thread about pedestrian safety.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024266575

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

33. Cyclists don't suck. We just have to follow the rules, and if we break them

then we are just as guilty as the SUV that runs a red.

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. You forgot to mention guns. n/t

[Major Nikon]

41. Kinda telling how you see these threads pop up from time to time

Yet how much finger wagging do you see about motorized vehicle drivers speeding, tailgating, running red lights, and all the other half-fast stuff that drivers do that actually manage to kill and maim other people with predictable regularity?

34,000 people die in auto accidents each year. Meanwhile about 350 more people die from drowning in a bathtub than are killed by errant cyclists. Oddly enough other than Whitney Houston, nobody seems to be too worried about bathtub drownings, but dog forbid a cyclist runs a red light.

Just once I'd like to see a thread about how often drivers intentionally intimidate cyclists by tailgating within inches, or trying to run them off the road, or the number of cyclists who are actually killed and maimed by auto drivers who had better things to do than obey traffic laws, but I'm sure if I tried to start such a thread it wouldn't be long before someone piped in and reminded everyone about the apocalyptic threat of some cyclists running red lights.

[Mariana]

62. You'd think drivers never break traffic laws

to read some of these posts.

[mike_c]

14. yep-- on the road, we have to follow all the usual traffic rules....

[Duckhunter935]

19. Thank you

[Jamaal510]

20. I didn't know

bikers had to stop at stop signs until I got caught running one once. It was in an Arcata neighborhood near the cemetary, and the sign was fairly hidden behind some trees. I ran it, and it just so happens that a police cruiser was there, just about to cross the intersection and nearly ran me over. The officer pulled me over, but she let me off with a warning and a pamphlet about bike safety.
Even up here, though, where stop signs designated for bikes are common, I still see other bikers disobey them, especially on the HSU campus.

[NYC_SKP]

31. I wonder if exceptions are made on college campuses....

Perhaps they should be, to encourage cycling.

This is from UC Davis, as forward as they come:

Cycling Safety

Obey all traffic laws. According to the California Vehicle Code, every person riding a bicycle upon a street or highway has all of the rights and responsibilities of the driver of a motor vehicle. On campus traffic regulations are strictly enforced. You may be cited for running stop signs, riding at an unsafe speed for conditions, riding on the wrong side of the road or on sidewalks, wearing headphones while riding, not having legal brakes, etc. Cyclists are required by state law to use front white lights, rear red reflectors, pedal and side reflectors at night. Additional lights - especially rear red flashers, reflectors, and light colored clothing are a good idea.
Buy and wear a helmet. They can greatly reduce the risk of head injury or death. Don't "hit the road" without one. But remember: even the best helmet has limitations and they don't prevent crashes. Defensive cycling is the key to bike safety.
One of the more prominent features of the campus cycling environment is the traffic circle or roundabout. There are over a dozen such intersections around the campus and several in the city. Some are at the junctions of roadways, others at bike path crossings, and some where bike paths meet roads. There are two important rules to remember when approaching a traffic circle: Always ride counterclockwise through the circle, and always yield right-of-way to any bike or vehicle already in the circle. Signaling your turns is especially helpful in circles, and be sure to watch out for others and adjust your speed or turns accordingly. Not everyone will necessarily understand or obey these right-of-way or yield rules, so ride defensively!

http://taps.ucdavis.edu/bicycle/education/safety

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

34. Harvard University has a "No riding through the yard' policy. It's ignored wholesale.

I saw one security officer light into a student cyclist years ago for riding through campus. I haven't seen anything like that since.

[Vattel]

45. UC Irvine started making people walk their bikes across campus after a bike killed a pedestrian.

[Major Nikon]

42. Most cycling accidents happen at intersections

So yes, it's pretty important that the cyclist obey the traffic laws, but mostly this importance applies to the cyclists themselves much in the same way jaywalking is not a great idea for pedestrians.

[Fumesucker]

23. Can the bikes just have the first five or ten seconds of the red, like the cars do?

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. Shirley, you jest. n/t

[FatBuddy]

70. sure

if they place the value of their lives in terms of other people's insurance deductibles.

[Fumesucker]

74. People get killed in cars running red lights

In fact a lot of localities won't even put in a red light until a certain number of fatalities occur at an intersection.

[muntrv]

26. Same road, same rules.

[Peregrine Took]

27. On the north side of Chicago bikes rule the roost.

They do anything they want to do - ride with traffic, ride against traffic, go through stop signs and red lights, ride on non bike lane streets, ride out in the middle of the street, ride two across, ride on the sidewalk, ride on narrow, little bird sanctuary paths - cars and pedestrians are at their mercy.

[LiberalElite]

40. and I thought this problem was only in NYC n/t

[Major Nikon]

43. "ride on non bike lane streets"

[mythology]

28. I've never understood not stopping at red lights

By my math, any time a car hits me, it's going to be bad.

Plus when I was biking, I used it for exercise not just to not have to drive to work. Stopping at red lights/stop signs made me work harder, thus getting me in better shape.

And after watching the video, who the hell bikes without brakes?

[Logical]

30. Most never do in my city. They use the toe clips as the excuse. n-t

[uppityperson]

73. Using toe clips in the city is a huge safety issue. You have to be able to stop fast if you need to

or to exit your bike quickly in case something gets in your way. Being hooked to your bike is good with long distance stuff without a lot of traffic or car doors to potentially open, but in the city? Not good. And not an excuse to stop.

Same road, same rules.

[ancianita]

35. As a 55-year rider, I agree.

[LiberalElite]

39. Thanks for posting!!! -

In NYC the majority of cyclists do whatever they feel like - if they do stop for a red light, it's just to make sure THEY don't get run over and then when the coast is clear, they take off - regardless of pedestrians in their path. Not that they obey any other traffic laws - they don't. If you say anything to them (like I often do) you get ridiculed and disrespected. (Maybe the ridicule and disrespect is an NYC thing LOL) One of former mayor Bloomberg's brainstorms was the Citibike program - for a fee anyone can rent a bike at locations set up in numerous parts of Manhattan and maybe a couple of places in the "outer boroughs". (I don't know the rest of the details because I'm not interested in renting a bike.) This never should have been instituted without a massive effort to educate the public that cyclists must obey the rules of the road. Now there's even more reckless asshats on the streets (and sidewalks) terrorizing pedestrians. This video is very encouraging - there IS something the cops can do about it. When I write to our new mayor about this problem I'm going to point out that SF cops pull over offending cyclists and give them tickets.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. the rightwing fear of bicycles is almost as strong as their fear of trains.

Love guns, fear trains and bicycles. Gummint can do nothing right, except the military part of it, which can't do anything wrong. Fierce advocates for individual liberty of giant corporations, individual liberty of individuals: not so much. Rightwing culture is so weird.

[Duckhunter935]

47. you kind of lost with that rambling

rant.

Fear of bicycles, trains and love of guns? Where in the OP is that?

Take breath, maybe a drink or a toke. Whatever it takes to calm you down. You need to stay with us for a long time.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. rightwing culture is so weird.

[CreekDog]

49. Yup.

funny how the gungeoners all came out to argue against pedestrian safety (in my thread today) and to hate on cyclists (in this thread).

they really do think we are stupid.

[Vattel]

46. I hate the fact that bikes put me at risk of civil and criminal liability.

If I am texting or reaching for my beer or just not paying attention, I might hit one of the bastards and end up in jail.

[seattledo]

51. Thanks for pointing-out the stupidity...

of the bike-bashers here. Your sarcasm is very effective.

[Duckhunter935]

52. obeying the law = bike bashing

interesting, thank you

[jeff47]

63. Yeah, it was loads of fun when the guy on a bike running a red passed right in front of my truck.

Fortunately, my brakes were in good enough condition that I could stop before splattering him all over the pavement. Clearly I should have used my infrared vision to know he was coming - it was night after, all. Must've forgot to turn it on.

Unfortunately, the brakes of the car behind me were not in good enough condition to do so. But hey, the collision only caused minor injuries.

Clearly the people complaining about bikes running red lights are just whiny little car-loving bastards who should shut up, right?

[Vattel]

79. Actually, I do think there are plenty of cyclists

who break traffic rules and put themselves and others at risk. I was just joking.

[Ron Green]

50. Cyclists DO have the moral high ground (for reasons given

throughout this thread), so in my view it's not a completely equivalent situation. The Idaho stop sign rule, for example, recognizes this.

That being said, cyclists ought not to heedlessly run red lights or otherwise endanger themselves and others.

[joshcryer]

55. Anyone notice that officer guide the biker through at the end?

Would you run a red light if a cop guided you through it?

Probably...

[JDPriestly]

56. I see bikes running red lights and stop signs. That is one reason I think bikes should have

separate streets to themselves when possible.

[PDJane]

59. I do, and most here do.

I also use hand signals, have a front and back light, the proper reflectives, wear clothing that can be seen and a helmet. By the way, if you don't have a rear light in this city, you can be fined $100.00 CDN.

There are still drivers who will cut you off, crowd the bike lane, and refuse to signal.

As far as I can see, it's a fifty-fifty proposition, and drivers are as guilty as the cyclist.

Mind you, those who don't have lights and ride as though they have a death wish are everywhere, and they give me high blood pressure at the best of times.....you know, the ones with black clothes and a black bike who sneak up on the inside of the right turn without letting you know they are there? The last time I had an accident, I ran into another bike. She was riding the wrong way on a busy one-way street, and came out from behind a parked car. She then tried to have me charged because she broke her wrist when she fell. I was ready to quietly murder the silly twit, but never mind....the good officer told her she was lucky the person hitting her was a bike, because had it been a car, there would have been more damage to her bike and her person....and he wouldn't have been able to lay charges. Bizarre.

[LanternWaste]

60. And cars should use turn signals when appropriate...

And automobiles should use turn signals whenever appropriate... helps make even more people safe.

[Iggo]

61. Cars need to stop at red lights, too.

Helps make everyone safe.

[WaitWut]

64. I am so pro citations for cyclist it's sickening.

I live in Texas and have tried to be a commuter cyclist as much as I can over the last 20+ years.

The lack of bike lanes, general ignorance on both sides of the bike/traffic argument, and the lack of cooperation to find a resolution to the Bike/Pedestrian/Motorized Vehicle problem is frustrating and absolutely ridiculous. (As you can see from the discussion progress of this thread. )

It ain't rocket surgery here folks.

1.) Local municipalities announce that they will be issuing citations to cyclists.

2.) Begin a public service campaign that outlines the cyclist's responsibility as a moving vehicle. (This will get motorist, cyclist, and pedestrian on the same page as to the rules.)

3.) Start posting uniformed officers to high violation areas for cyclist and issuing citations. (This will help speed up the distribution of the information needed in step 2)

4.) Use the records of violations to track where traffic adjustments need to be made. (Bike lanes, longer street light rotations, wider jogging trails, and current laws shortcomings and over reaches)

5.) City Planners take into consideration the "Complete Streets Coalition" guidelines for "all users." http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/complete-streets

That's how you get your city started.
Now who do I/you need to forward this too?

BTW Happy New Year DU.

edited for typo.

[Glassunion]

65. Well... No shit.

[Gormy Cuss]

66. Except in Idaho, where bikes can treat stop signs as yield signs and red lights as stop signs

in certain circumstances. The idea is that when there is no impediment to moving forward it's better for everyone to have the bicycles clear the intersections before the cars proceed.


eta: I stop at signs and red lights but "Idaho stops" really do make more sense. There are a number of situations where the laws should be changed to reflect the differences between bicycles and cars but until they change I have to obey the law. I am glad that my state now requires a minimum three foot distance when a car passes a cycle but I expect that the same clods who were passing too close before will be the ones who don't obey the new law.

[fizzgig]

68. my city proposed that

And it was nixed rather quickly because there was a lot of public outrage over it. Don't remember exactly why people were so het up about it, didn't pay that close attention, but people straight freaked out.

We do have a passing buffer, at least as far as I know.

[drmeow]

69. I like this idea

I have to confess, there is a stop sign at the end of my street which I treat as a yield sign (residential street to busier residential). Once I'm on the second road I always stop for the red lights (two major streets which cross it) even if there is no traffic.

[Smarmie Doofus]

77. +1 for common sense re. stops-as-yields. But the eta seems ....

... impractical at best.

How will it be enforced? Cops running around w. tape-measures? *AFTER* the fact?

Recipe for bureaucratic chaos.

[Gormy Cuss]

78. It's the law in at least twenty states.

Enforcement is probably the same as an other traffic infraction -- cop sees it, or the evidence after an accident points to the violation.

[LanternWaste]

67. I was under the impression that Public Service Announcements on DU are offensive to individuals...

I was under the impression that Public Service Announcements on DU are offensive to individuals who follow the rules and infer that they are being picked on, singled out, and bullied by the mere suggestion.

[drmeow]

71. I get into a bit of a strange situation

My street ends at a school where there is a crossing guard. When she sees me approaching the intersection (where I have a stop sign), she often goes out to block the traffic for me. When she does that, I don't stop. But I always stop at the red lights. But my campus has "walk only zones" in an area where the only alternative if I don't want to walk my bike is to ride in an area where it is even less safe for pedestrians or on a VERY unsafe road which does not have a bike lane. When I complained they basically said "too bad" - really pissed me off.

[yuiyoshida]

72. I can't see the video however

That looks like a SF MUNI BUS. I am guessing this is THE CITY!. I READ the other day a guy got killed on a bike going though an intersection.

[dembotoz]

75. anytime a bike meets a car or truck the bike is not going to win

shouldn't the bike rider understand that and drive his vehicle in a constantly
defensive manner.

only common sense

yes bike rider--the law is sort of on your side--BUT you are still dead.....