KRUGMAN: 'We can’t have REAL debates, because the cockroaches and zombies get in the way'

[kpete]

Paul Krugman - New York Times Blog
January 2, 2014, 1:39 pm
Bodyguard of Zombies, Counterattack by Cockroaches

… Today’s right wing never gives up on a politically convenient argument, no matter how thoroughly it may have been refuted by analysis and evidence. It may downplay that argument for a while — though often even that doesn’t happen — but it always comes back.

Inequality is a clear though not at all unique example. Consider three arguments one might make against 21st-century populism:

1. Inequality isn’t increasing.
2. OK, inequality is increasing, but it’s not a problem.
3. OK, it would be nice to have lower inequality, but any proposed solutions would do more harm than good.

Which of these arguments does the right choose, when making its stand? The answer is, all three. Argument 1 faded away briefly when the CBO published its landmark study documenting the rise of the one percent, but as we’ve just seen, it’s back (this is an illustration of the concept of cockroach ideas.) Argument 2 doesn’t stand up under scrutiny, but it just keeps being made anyway — it’s a zombie. But meanwhile, argument 3 is made against anyone like, say, the new mayor of New York who proposes even the slightest effort to equalize opportunity.

This kind of thing flummoxes many people, who imagine that we’re having a real debate. It makes perfect sense, however, once you realize that the other side here isn’t engaged in good-faith argument, just looking for anything that comes to hand, with no regard for consistency…

I’d love to be having real debates on these issues. But we aren’t having and can’t have such debates, because the cockroaches and zombies get in the way.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/bodyguard-of-zombies-counterattack-by-cockroaches/?_r=0
via:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/01/03/friday-morning-open-thread-chill-tundra/

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. Paul, get off DU for awhile.

[edhopper]

3. What's this about?

[Egalitarian Thug]

9. How closely Dr. Krugman's description of how the Reich-wing stifles any actual discussion

of issues, resembles the techniques seen here daily.

[Demeter]

10. Yeah

Especially in the Environment and Energy Group

And of course, the BOG

After all, when you attack someone's god, be in nuclear or personality...

[KittyWampus]

12. And of course the ideologues… one way to spot them on DU, besides THEIR use of these tactics

is invoking the "BOG".

[Egalitarian Thug]

14. Touched a nerve, did she?

Ya know the BOG wouldn't get so much shit if they were not so obnoxious, intolerant. and exclusive.

They want their own little safe haven, but feel entitled to disrupt, hijack, belittle, and dismiss anyone outside that doesn't comply with their wishes. Not all of you are like that, but like the "good Christians" that tolerate their leaders inhumanity, you also don't do anything to discourage those that are.

[jwirr]

26. Okay, stupid of me but what is a "BOG"?

[MsLeopard]

27. Barack Obama Group

I think.....

[jwirr]

28. Now I really feel stupid. Thanks for the info.

[KittyWampus]

36. I am not a member of the B.O.G. so no, she didn't touch a nerve. Did my calling out the

ideologues touch a nerve with you? I'm sure it did.

[xocet]

45. Ironically...BOG...

transliterated means god in Russian:

Бог {м}
God религ.

бог {м} [тж. перен.]
god [also fig.] миф. религ.

...

http://browse.dict.cc/russian-english/%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3.html

[Demeter]

52. Yes, I'm aware of that

but don't give the conspiracy any more fuel, please.

[xocet]

59. No problem. It is only a coincidence after all. n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. Yep ...

I've noticed that ... But I suspect we would point to different examples.

[Egalitarian Thug]

19. I'm sure we could both find plenty of fodder from any faction here.

It's what DU is for. If you want to read in-depth, exhaustively researched and documented college student quality papers, I recommend Kos.

The problem with that place is that it just takes to long. I can swing in and out of here for a few seconds or a minute at a time while I'm waiting for something in real life, DK requires you to sit and read long diaries, read more documentation if you want to verify or dispute the content, and then the reply itself frequently requires hours to compose and link. But, the quality of discourse is much higher and actual debate is frequently the result. The trolls are over there, too, but they are just ignored.

It's the difference between sitting down to a nice dinner and picking up a burrito at the drive through on your way someplace else.

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. LOL ...

I'm not looking for "in-depth, exhaustively researched and documented college student quality papers", just fewer cockroaches and zombies ... It was once like that on DU. Posters posted thoughtful arguments and, if/when refuted, had no problem acknowledging and/or accepting the validity (or valid parts) of the argument.

Now? ... We see links to the latest out-rage directed at Democrats, in general, and President Obama, in particular ... and when the out-rage turns out to not be so outrageous, just give it a day or two ... it'll be back.

[AgingAmerican]

32. We can thank Third Way® policies for that

You cannot blame the electorate when politicians screw up. It's the politicians fault.

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. No ...

I blame DUers for that. Third Way® has little to do with the cockroach/zombie "arguments" and out-rage that shows up on DU.

[Egalitarian Thug]

34. Two things happened, I think. Perception management companies became lucrative, professional,

and much more pervasive, and we won the election but kept acting like we lost.

[adirondacker]

5. !

[Squinch]

7. .

[boston bean]

23. I think Paul might be onto something. LOL

[Bonobo]

25. Yes exactly, hateful idiots all over now. Nt

[JDPriestly]

43. I like Paul Krugman. What do you dislike about him? Is he too liberal for you?

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. I don't dislike him at all. It was a joke. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

58. Irony

makes for some of the best comedy.



eta: especially when it's unintentional.

[CTyankee]

2. His #3 was amply demonstrated by Joe Scar today...

in his discussion about government regulation "holding back" small businesses. Same shit, different day.

[whathehell]

21. Joe Scar is such an ass...He & his cohorts were moaning endlessly about DiBlasio supposedly

criticizing Bloomberg in his inaugural speech, but as soon as he mentioned "Income Inequality" he

blamed Obama for it, even though Billionaire Bloomie stood against raising wages in obscenely expensive New York.

[Cha]

40. Did Mika or anyone pipe up?

[whathehell]

47. Only to murmur in agreement, unfortunately..

I think the show should be renamed "Republicans Talking".

Mika is little more than an attractive token, in my opinion.

[Cha]

60. IOW..

"LIES LIES & More LIES"

[whathehell]

61. -----

I'm sorry, Cha, but I don't know what IOW means.

[Cha]

62. That's okay, wth.. you're about to find out..

In Other Words.

[whathehell]

63. What the hell, Cha..

That's easy, I shoulda been able to figure that out myself!

[Cha]

64. No Worries, wth.. look at how

much fun I had teaching you!

When I first got on the net I didn't know any of the Abbreviations and decided "LOL" was "Lots of Luck".. I still stay that to myself. rofl

[whathehell]

65. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself!

I too have learned SO very much from my time on DU.

[longship]

4. More at link, re: macro Econ. R&K nt

[underpants]

6. BENGHAZI!

Sorry just felt like throwing out there.

BENGHAZI is like the RW Yahzee!!!!

[winter is coming]

8. And the media is complicit in this, by treating cockroach and zombie arguments

as legitimate viewpoints, instead of ludicrous and discredited talking points.

[daleanime]

11. Now be nice....

its what their payed to do.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

16. exactly right....read Charles Pierce's book "Idiot America"

Last edited Sat Jan 4, 2014, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)

I think you'd enjoy it. I sure did. He talks about how America has always allowed "fringe" opinions, but in the past they were treated as fringe. A looney would be seen AND TREATED by journalists as such. "Yes yes very nice....now go away". There was true rebuttal in political discussion.

Now, looneytunes and dangerous cranks are treated as legit by the false equivalency media and that influences how people think.

With no examples of critical thought before them and no shunning of easily dismissable morons, people who have always taken "The Media Experts" at face value start twisting or numbing their own thinking....because "they couldn't say it if it weren't true".


(Edited for grammar 1/4/14)

[Enthusiast]

48. Very well said and I agree.

[IDemo]

55. Sounds like a must-read

Sounding almost Twain-like here:

This is a great country, in no small part because it is the best country ever devised in which to be a public crank. Never has a nation so dedicated itself to the proposition that not only should its people hold nutty ideas but they should cultivate them, treasure them, shine them up, and put them right there on the mantelpiece.

http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0207GREETINGS

[BlancheSplanchnik]

57. yes he does sound Twain-like!

Only using current vernacular.

I had no idea he (C.P.) existed until I picked up his book in the bookstore.

Another great (and prescient) read is the late great Neil Postman. I read "Amusing Ourselves to Death" about 10 years ago. It was written in the 70's. Knocked me over. I gotta remember to read more of his stuff.

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. Makes one want to just scream ...

Last edited Sat Jan 4, 2014, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)

whenever the media pairs a Nobel Prize winner with a PhD in Economics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Krugman) or, the "lesser" qualified PhD'ed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_D._Wolff) with a Master Degreed (in a field unrelated to Economics) journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Cavuto), or a BA degreed (maybe, word the wording of the entry) Journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stossel) and give their opinions equal weight.

I wonder why the media has rejected my rebuttals to Stephen Hawkes' arguments in the field of Theoretical Physics ... I have a graduate and professional degree (though neither are even close to Physics) AND I, once, read a comic book!

[Moostache]

37. But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express? (n/t)

[CTyankee]

54. Exactly! Did you see that debate between Krugman and Scarborough?

Joe was embarrassingly bad, but overtalked Krugman and relied on superficial arguments and bully boy tactics, trying to make Krugman look weak, then he and his thugs from the show pronounced Joe the "winner." And for a long time the Morning Joe website bannered "Joe Schools Paul Krugman."

Paul just hasn't got the time or patience with loudmouthed jerks like Scarborough...

[gtar100]

13. It's amazing the depth of insight we need to get past the right-wing's wall of stupidity.

Paul hits another nail on the head. He's definitely one of the best at understanding the twisted logic of the right wing. I recognize this pattern a lot. It's like the one place they refuse to go is the one that will actually fix the problem for the better. Instead they hang onto their prejudices, their bigotry, their hatefulness as if it were their oxygen. They are like addicts, deeply afraid of the withdrawal symptoms.

[thesquanderer]

17. Same as global warming

1. global warming isn't happening
2. but if it is, people aren't causing it, it's part of natural cycles
3. but even if people have contributed to it, there's nothing we can do about it within reasonable means
4. and even if it happens, it's not so bad... in some ways it could even be good.

These arguments, often made by the same people, indicate that they have no interest in determining the truth, since they can be equally happy with any of these generally contradictory positions... all that matters is that the liberal or democratic position be seen as wrong. What's right doesn't matter, as long as "the other side" is wrong.

[Moostache]

39. BINGO! It does not stop there though...

This EXACT same line of perverted "reasoning" infects everything the right holds dear...its their go-to playbook for EVERYTHING!

To wit:

The Pattern?
1) DENY as strongly as possible for as long as possible (the related corollary is to simply CREATE something out of whole cloth and state it as 'fact' regardless of evidence or lack thereof!)
2) OBSFUCATE as much as possible for as long as possible
3) REFUSE to accept reality without stupid or unthinking caveats

Specific uses of 'The Pattern'?
The aforementioned economic trends and global warming/climate change, but there are quite a few others too!

Evolution of species?
1) Didn't happen...
2) Did happen, but only with "kinds" begetting "kinds"...
3) Even if it MIGHT have happened, it can only be because "god" controlled it...

Cancer linked to cigarettes?
1) NEVER! Fake! HOAX!
2) Well, maybe, but the science is unclear and the debate goes on...
3) Well, not really, but IF it did, there were warning labels on packs that counter acted things like Joe Camel and the Marlboro Man ads...
4) Even though smoking may have caused cancer, we really can back off now because the rates of smokers are in decline anyway.

Taxes rates are too low?
1) HERESY! We found a witch, may we burn her?
2) Well, EVERYONE knows that the makers won't stand for these high taxes much longer, so even if taxes are historically low, we better lower them further just in case...
3) The charts that show a correlation to improved economic conditions when taxes are raised on the affluent are lagging indicators and are only positive BECAUSE the lower taxes made them possible in the first place don't-cha-know???

Voter fraud is endemic to the system!
1) Our elections are in peril, everyone knows this!
2) The fact that we don't have draconian enough enforcement of rules that make it possible for only advantaged (ie. older, whiter) people to vote is CAUSING this to destroy our trust in government...
3) Even if there is no fraud, the only people who believe this is a problem think that because they want to use it to bribe people with free stuff to be life long voters for them.

Of course, failing that "pattern" they can always revert to the simple slogans like:
Benghazi!
Obamacare!
Death-Panels!
"Real" America!

Or just cut to the quick - BE AFRAID OF THEM! (then define "THEM" however you need for maximum effect)

[nikto]

41. Great Post!! Naiks it, completely

Worth repeating...

This EXACT same line of perverted "reasoning" infects everything the right holds dear...
its their go-to playbook for EVERYTHING!

To wit:

The Pattern?
1) DENY as strongly as possible for as long as possible (the related corollary is to simply
CREATE something out of whole cloth and state it as 'fact' regardless of evidence or lack thereof!)
2) OBSFUCATE as much as possible for as long as possible
3) REFUSE to accept reality without stupid or unthinking caveats

Specific uses of 'The Pattern'?
The aforementioned economic trends and global warming/climate change,
but there are quite a few others too!

Evolution of species?
1) Didn't happen...
2) Did happen, but only with "kinds" begetting "kinds"...
3) Even if it MIGHT have happened, it can only be because "god" controlled it...

Cancer linked to cigarettes?
1) NEVER! Fake! HOAX!
2) Well, maybe, but the science is unclear and the debate goes on...
3) Well, not really, but IF it did, there were warning labels on packs that
counter acted things like Joe Camel and the Marlboro Man ads...
4) Even though smoking may have caused cancer, we really can
back off now because the rates of smokers are in decline anyway.

Taxes rates are too low?
1) HERESY! We found a witch, may we burn her?
2) Well, EVERYONE knows that the makers won't stand for these high taxes much longer,
so even if taxes are historically low, we better lower them further just in case...
3) The charts that show a correlation to improved economic conditions when taxes are
raised on the affluent are lagging indicators and are only positive BECAUSE the lower taxes
made them possible in the first place don't-cha-know???

Voter fraud is endemic to the system!
1) Our elections are in peril, everyone knows this!
2) The fact that we don't have draconian enough enforcement of rules that
make it possible for only advantaged (ie. older, whiter) people to vote is CAUSING this
to destroy our trust in government...
3) Even if there is no fraud, the only people who believe this is a problem think that because
they want to use it to bribe people with free stuff to be life long voters for them.

Of course, failing that "pattern" they can always revert to the simple slogans like:
Benghazi!
Obamacare!
Death-Panels!
"Real" America!

Or just cut to the quick - BE AFRAID OF THEM! (then define "THEM" however you need for maximum effect)

[Enthusiast]

49. +One! It's a strategy and it's effective.

But only because the media plays along.

[ctsnowman]

18. The worst part

about all of it is that when it's discussed on most of the MSM at best you get someone from viewpoint 2 arguing with someone from 3.

[cer7711]

24. Difference Between Your Avg Zombie & Right-winger?

The zombie knows it needs brains to survive.

[truebluegreen]

30. Heh. Good one.

[cer7711]

35. ;)

Thank you!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

29. Yep. And it applies to arguments on DU as well

For instance, shutting down any conversation about gun control with the same old spurious arguments made by gun Humpers.

[openfield]

56. Would love to see all real liberals here

That's just one issue that the right wing propaganda machine succeeds in sticking its creepy claws in to left wing enlightened life.

[Android3.14]

31. Wall, shit, sticks

So far the Obama administration has been able to wipe most of it off, but when you have 100 million flinging their poo, I guess you just have to become accustomed to the smell.
I think I'll refer to them as
Another Stupid Stinky Fingered Republican or by the shortened form
ASS-fingered-republican

[Rex]

38. Nah, the admins are real good about squishing them.

Trolls usually don't last on DU.

[herding cats]

42. Krugman seriously took the Wall Street Journal to the woodshed there!

I'm a bit of a Krugman fangirl, which I admit. Still, it's hard not to see how he spanked the WSJ in that one and made some amazing points about the current techniques being implemented against facts and against logic.

[certainot]

46. this is how stupid the left and all our prog groups are:

Today’s right wing never gives up on a politically convenient argument, no matter how thoroughly it may have been refuted by analysis and evidence. It may downplay that argument for a while — though often even that doesn’t happen — but it always comes back.

this is because of one thing: the left ignores RW radio.

that's the biggest mistake in political history.

1200 think tank-coordinated stations doing the groundwork invisible repetition to create the alternate realities in which billionaires create jobs and other myths.

[Egalitarian Thug]

51. Stupid is assuming that the smartest people in the nation just don't get what you've "discovered".

apparently very recently.

It was "stupid liberals" that instituted the restrictions that did exist and it's the "stupid liberals" that have been trying to get the cognitively challenged to see this problem for decades.

I'm very happy that you've finally caught up, but perhaps you should take a moment to see where you are in relation to the rest of us before you start calling other people stupid.

[certainot]

66. RW radio is an historically new and unique media that has been kicking liberal ass for 25 years

and the specifically targeted limbaugh boycotts are the ONLY challenge to that huge advantage in messaging, lying, excusing, distorting, intimidating and enabling.

it is STUPID that the collective 'left' continues to ignore RW radio.

[certainot]

68. let me continue. i suppose not knowing would be more appropriately called 'ignorant'

actually i've been observing and talking about talk radio for 20 years. if you would like me to elaborate on how RW radio has been kicking liberal ass while getting a free speech free ride from those liberals i can elaborate.

'It was "stupid liberals" that instituted the restrictions that did exist and it's the "stupid liberals" that have been trying to get the cognitively challenged to see this problem for decades.'

- talk radio has been instrumental in the deregulation and stopping regulation. it's ALEC's most important tool- ignored. liberal activists, protestors, and the prog orgs have been wasting great amts of time and donations all because they let a few think tank-scripted blowhards yell over them.

and, for eg, if you are a student or are a college grad of one of the major universities it is likely that your school sports mascot is being rented to a major RW radio station to give it community cred and bring in ad dollars while it attacks teachers, unions, public ed, student loans, and leads the way in global warming denial. https://sites.google.com/site/universitiesforrushlimbaugh/

to continue to allow those unis to piss all over their mission statements without a whimper of protest is either stupid or ignorant.

[pampango]

53. "Today’s right wing never gives up on a politically convenient argument, no matter how thoroughly it

may have been refuted by analysis and evidence."

Fear and emotion trump "analysis and evidence" with republicans. And, unfortunately, it works electorally much of the time.

[certainot]

67. or maybe the left is just too lazy to do anything about RW radio while it kicks their ass over and

over. music is so much more fun to think about anyway.

or maybe it's that definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over - ignoring RW radio - and expecting different results.

[reformist2]

50. The scary thing is, even if you get a rightie to #3, next time you talk they will be back to #1 agai

It will be as if they learned nothing, remembered nothing of the last discussion.

[Fumesucker]

69. Indeed