General Discussion

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:48 AM

Jan 2014

Those that are uncomfortable with being reminded of white privilege need to read this.

cinnabonbon

(860 posts)

148. This was good. I want to link people to this reply

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 02:56 PM

Jan 2014

whenever the subject of privilege comes up.

PoliticalPothead

(220 posts)

152. +1000

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:16 PM

Jan 2014

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

160. I would call that dualistic thinking

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:58 PM

Jan 2014

and say those are NOT the only two choices

"Either one examines the way in which race and racism influences society and themselves, or they perpetuate discrimination."

Further, I would say that the concept of "white privilege" actually gets in the way of discussing racism and discrimination. Flips it around, and suddenly we are discussing "whites" and "privilege" rather than racism and discrimination. A rather pointless distraction more likely to create opposition than support.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

183. racism is about whites

Reply to hfojvt (Reply #160)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:27 PM

Jan 2014

It is whites who perpetrate it and benefit from it. We might have more people of color on this site to hear their point of view if they didn't feel so unwelcome.

RobinA

(9,891 posts)

197. Racism is About Whites???

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:44 PM

Jan 2014

That's a rather blinkered view.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

199. Racism is racial prejudice

Reply to RobinA (Reply #197)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:04 AM

Jan 2014

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:27 AM - Edit history (1)

The experience of racism is felt by people of color. The ideology of racism is about how white people think, consciously and unconsciously, about race and how they benefit from structural racism. To pretend one can understand racism without interrogating privilege is false.

We on DU, like all Americans, could benefit greatly from insight into what it is like to experience racism, but posts like the OP--in response to a single thread on white privilege, show how much hostility there is to points of view that differ from the hegemonic, white male culture. The response to threads on feminism are the same. Too many are openly hostile to not only anything that challenges their own privilege, but even many threads that don't challenge privilege but simply express concerns voiced by women or people of color. In complaining that posts about racism, rape, rape culture, etc. .. are a "distraction" from the real agenda (whether that's old guys in congress, Social Security, the NSA, etc....) demonstrates their insistence that acceptable discussion is limited to a very narrow conception of politics. That narrow conception of politics is itself a function of racism and sexism.

RobinA

(9,891 posts)

219. Well, We Will Have To

Reply to BainsBane (Reply #199)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:23 AM

Jan 2014

disagree that racism is, at rock bottom, about how white people think. I believe that racism is about how people think. There is racism the world over, much having nothing whatsoever to do with white people. In this country it tends to be largely about white people vs people of color, but I think it is more productive to look at racism as a phenomenon in its entirety, which far transends white vs. color. What we call racism is in the end about difference, not color. My feeling is that until we approach it on that level it will not have a chance of being productively dealt with.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

235. Racism affects how people of color see themselves

Reply to RobinA (Reply #219)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:32 PM

Jan 2014

Just as sexism affects how women see themselves, but if you are suggesting that those who are the targets of discrimination are as racist as the hegemonic culture that produces power, that is simply false. Race is culturally constructed, so it takes on different meanings in different societies. This OP was about the US. At its core it was about denying white privilege, which is one of the key ways racism is perpetuated. The US has always been the basis by which other countries compared themselves in terms of racism because its manifestation in this country was so extreme and brutal.

The idea of race as a category of identity, and then as biological, emerged out of the institution of slavery. It is inexorably linked to white privilege, and that in fact was its intent. The racialization of the institution of slavery elevated even poor whites above blacks. It justified the denial to Africans and their decedents of the concept of equality that emerged out of the Age of Revolution. Did racist ideas that take on somewhat different meanings in different societies, yes. What is considered white and black in the US is not the same in Haiti or Brazil. Power and privilege are central to racism. Racism is not simply personal views some may have toward people of different phenotype but the ways in which society and culture elevate whiteness above other racial identities.

I really don't know what you are getting at. You will have to be more specific.

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

258. Your brilliance leaves me speechless! Thank you so much!

Reply to BainsBane (Reply #235)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:08 PM

Jan 2014

The people of color here on DU have been talking amongst ourselves for a long time now and many of us--the very few of us who are left on DU--had been contemplating leaving the forum for awhile. One reason why I won't leave is because I feel that my voice is needed. I feel that I must continue to speak out. I now the same is true of other DU people of color who I have had very long and painful conversations with.

The fallacy that liberals cannot be racists must be addressed. Denying that white privilege exists gets us nowhere. It doesn't mean that white men or white women are being attacked. It simply means acknowleging that skin color matters and still matters, and accepting that people are thought of as being lesser than because of it. That is racism. Racism leads to prejudice and *institutionalized* discrimination. If people come to this thread and deny the very root of the problem, the problem itself never get resolved.

I invite everyone to get to know Tim Wise. He is a white male scholar who writes and lectures about race and racism in American society who has written quite a lot on white skin privilege. This is a white man--not a black person--discussing white privilege who is unafraid to acknowledge this truth because he knows that until we do, racism will never be eradicated...

----

http://www.timwise.org/f-a-q-s/

F.A.Q.s
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS – AND THEIR ANSWERS

This page serves to provide answers to questions I am often asked, but which I may not have directly addressed in an essay or other blog post; or, alternately, to questions that I have addressed elsewhere, but which are so commonly asked that placing answers in a FAQ page makes sense.

1. How do you define racism?

As with other “isms” (like capitalism, communism, etc.), racism is both an ideology and a system. As such, I define it in two ways.

As an ideology, racism is the belief that population groups, defined as distinct “races,” generally possess traits, characteristics or abilities, which distinguish them as either superior or inferior to other groups in certain ways. In short, racism is the belief that a particular race is (or certain races are) superior or inferior to another race or races.

As a system, racism is an institutional arrangement, maintained by policies, practices and procedures — both formal and informal — in which some persons typically have more or less opportunity than others, and in which such persons receive better or worse treatment than others, because of their respective racial identities. Additionally, institutional racism involves denying persons opportunities, rewards, or various benefits on the basis of race, to which those individuals are otherwise entitled. In short, racism is a system of inequality, based on race.

2. How is racism different from white supremacy?

White supremacy is the operationalized form of racism in the United States and throughout the Western world. Racism is like the generic product name, while white supremacy is the leading brand, with far and away the greatest market share.

3. Do you think all whites are racist?

I believe that all people (white or of color) raised in a society where racism has been (and still is) so prevalent, will have internalized various elements of racist thinking: certain beliefs, stereotypes, assumptions, and judgments about others and themselves. So in countries where beliefs in European/white superiority and domination have been historically embedded, it is likely that everyone in such places will have ingested some of that conditioning. I think all whites — as the dominant group in the U.S. — have been conditioned to accept white predominance in the social, political and economic system, and to believe that white predominance is a preferable arrangement for the society in which they live, the neighborhoods in which they live, the places where they work, etc.

However, this doesn’t mean that all whites, having been conditioned in that way, are committed to the maintenance of white supremacy. One can challenge one’s conditioning. One can be counter-conditioned and taught to believe in equality, and to commit oneself to its achievement. These things take work — and they can never completely eradicate all of the conditioning to which one has been subjected — but they are possible.

In other words, we can be racist by conditioning, antiracist by choice. That racism is part of who we are does not mean that it’s all of who we are, or that it must be the controlling or dominant part of who we are. By the same token, just because we choose to be antiracist, does not mean that we no longer carry around some of the racism with which we were raised, or to which we were and are exposed.

4. Do you think people of color can be racist against whites?

At the ideological level, anyone can be racist because anyone can endorse the kinds of thinking that qualifies as racism, as defined above. At the systemic level, people of color can be racist in theory, but typically not in practice, and certainly not very effectively. Although a person of color in an authority position can discriminate against a white person, this kind of thing rarely happens because, a) such persons are still statistically rare relative to whites in authority, b) in virtually all cases, there are authorities above those people of color who are white, and who would not stand for such actions, and c) even in cases where a person of color sits atop a power structure (as with President Obama), he is not truly free to do anything to oppress or marginalize white people (even were he so inclined), given his own need to attract white support in order to win election or pass any of his policy agenda. Ultimately, there are no institutional structures in the U.S. in which people of color exercise final and controlling authority: not in the school systems, labor market, justice system, housing markets, financial markets, or media. As such, the ability of black and brown folks to oppress white people simply does not exist.

5. What do you mean by white privilege?

White privilege refers to any advantage, opportunity, benefit, head start, or general protection from negative societal mistreatment, which persons deemed white will typically enjoy, but which others will generally not enjoy. These benefits can be material (such as greater opportunity in the labor market, or greater net worth, due to a history in which whites had the ability to accumulate wealth to a greater extent than persons of color), social (such as presumptions of competence, creditworthiness, law-abidingness, intelligence, etc.) or psychological (such as not having to worry about triggering negative stereotypes, rarely having to feel out of place, not having to worry about racial profiling, etc.).

Operationally, white privilege is simply the flipside of discrimination against people of color. The concept is rooted in the common-sense observation that there can be no down without an up, so that if people of color are the targets of discrimination, in housing, employment, the justice system, or elsewhere, then whites, by definition, are being elevated above those persons of color. Whites are receiving a benefit, vis-a-vis those persons of color: more opportunity because those persons of color are receiving less. Although I believe all persons are harmed in the long run by racism and racial inequity — and thus, white privilege comes at an immense social cost — it still exists as a daily reality throughout the social, political and economic structure of the United States.

The fact that white privilege exists and that all whites have access to various aspects of it, does not, however, mean that all whites are wealthy, or that in competitions for jobs and other opportunities, whites will always win. The fact of general advantage doesn’t require unanimity of outcomes favoring whites. In certain situations, other factors will effect the distribution of opportunities: among these, socioeconomic status, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religious identity, age, or physical disability. There are, after all, also such things as class privilege, male privilege, straight privilege, Christian privilege, and able-bodied privilege. And these other forms of privilege exist — and generally provide greater opportunity to their respective group members — even though there are rich people who lead miserable lives despite their money, and there are men, heterosexuals, Christians, and able bodied folks who are poor. On balance, it pays to be a member of any of those dominant groups. And the same is true with whiteness.

More at the link:

http://www.timwise.org/f-a-q-s/

More on Tim Wise:

http://www.timwise.org/about/

Tim Wise readings:

http://www.timwise.org/books-and-dvds/

Videos:

5 Things Whites Can Do to Improve Race Relations: http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/tim-wise-on-cnn-wdon-lemon-81013-5-things-whites-can-do-to-improve-race-relations/

Stop and Frisk: http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/stop-and-frisk-the-high-school-senior-whereiamgoing-org-powerful-video/

Trayvon Martin: http://www.timwise.org/2013/07/tim-wise-on-lyrical-rhapsody-wginnie-love-and-samaria-graham-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-and-race-in-america-71713/

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)

200. Amen!

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:08 AM

Jan 2014

People of color come on this site, and instead of hostile RWers telling them what they think and how they are, they have well meaning but inexperienced white progressives telling them what they think and how they are.

Granted, the white progressive versions of people of color are less insulting, but not much.

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

257. The "white progressive versions of people of color" can be just as bad, if not worse,

Reply to FrodosPet (Reply #200)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 02:49 PM

Jan 2014

than white conservative malappropriations of people of color.

Why? I can't (and won't) speak for all people of color, as I'm only one and I'm also a woman, but what I have witnessed in white liberals--not all--is this condescending paternalism directed at us. They act as if they know what's best for us, as if we can't decide for ourselves what is best for us. They decide how we ought to act and think; what's the best policies for us and where we should live. These paternalistic attitudes are not new here. There are quite a few examples to this day. We saw it during the 2008 Democratic Primaries when Hillary proclaimed that all MLK, Jr. did was make speeches; it was LBJ who actually got things done. We see it today from many white liberals and their attitudes towards Barack Obama with them acting as if they are smarter than he is, telling him what he ought to do and how he ought to this or that. I could go on and on. White liberalism has its own brand of racism that, to me, can be more dangerous because they don't even realize how condescending, harmful and unproductive they're being. Just like this thread. They tell us that there is no racism, as if they themselves are black. How would they know that there is no racism if they are not people of color? They wouldn't know this. They can't tell us that there is no racism or that racism has declined or that things have gotten better for us; or, that we should feel a certain way vis-a-vis racism. It's not their place to tell us anything about how we feel regarding racism of any kind if they are not people of color and therefore are not subjected to this mess nearly every day of their lives. That, for me, is the biggest problem with white progressivism--their eagerness to deny racism and their paternalistic, condescending attitudes towards people of color.

NOTE: This is not directed at ALL white progressives.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)

262. I'm glad to see that someone else sees the same thing as I do on this

Reply to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #257)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:19 PM

Jan 2014

As a white middle aged man in a middle management position, I honestly can never completely understand the effects of racism. I can understand being feared and challenged for similar reasons, but never exactly the same way or at anywhere near the level of a victim of racism. For example, I'm a big, scruffy guy, and people have recognizably crossed the street or otherwise attempted to get away from me. I've sat at restaurants and watched people being served all around me, while being actively ignored. When I am with my developmentally disabled brother, with his unique tics and mannerisms, it is even more likely to happen. But straight up, it will never happen as often as it does to an average sized well dressed black man. Almost the entire surrounding world goes into defense mode at the site of him.

In recognition of this, and many other factors, I am starting to, and trying to, understand that yes, I am privileged. I may know my own hardships and roadblocks, but they will never be as existential as the brick wall of racism.

One thing this has led me to is realizing that I have no right to tell anyone how they feel, or how they should think. I know what I think, and am happy to share and allow others to adopt and adapt my ideas as they see fit. Unfortunately, it feels like the world has a long way to go before this particular sentiment becomes widespread.

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

264. Are you married?? *smile* Thank you so very much for this! We need more to speak out!

Reply to FrodosPet (Reply #262)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:32 PM

Jan 2014

And speak truth!!

This isn't about persecuting white people, but the OP did start this thread and this thread is about addressing white privilege. The OP asked the question to which we are discussing.

He/she opened this can of worms. He/she can't start complaining about how we're harping on "white privilege" and throwing it in the faces of white people who think they aren't racist. Again, I didn't post this OP about "white privilege" and conflate it with "black crime." He/she did!

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

210. it is not all whites who perpetrate it

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 03:36 AM

Jan 2014

nor is it all whites who benefit from it.

16 million white households have less than $5,000 in net worth. Where is their benefit again?

And why should people of color (other than white) feel unwelcome here? Just because somebody might disagree with them?

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

211. Intersectionality

Reply to hfojvt (Reply #210)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:22 AM

Jan 2014

That class exploitation exists doesn't mean racism and sexism don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

That same income data will show you that poverty is far greater among African American and Hispanic Households. The incarceration rate is also higher, but the crime rate is not. Being white carries benefits in society. That doesn't mean class isn't enormously significant. I feel frustrated I need to explain something so incredibly basic. I suggest you do some reading on the issue.

People of color feel unwelcome because the only point of view that is accepted is that that speaks to the concerns of white men. That is what the OP is insisting. Black people can participate if they don't raise issues that make white people uncomfortable. Why is it that you think there are so few people of color here as opposed to the Democratic Party, which is majority people of color and women? I'm assuming you don't go into the African American group much. They talk about how pronounced the racism on this site is and few post here much anymore.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

214. except I never said that racism and sexism don't exist

Reply to BainsBane (Reply #211)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:37 AM

Jan 2014

only that their existence clearly does not translate into privilege for all whites.

Maybe the Democratic Party is NOT majority people of color. Obama got 65.92 million votes. 36.29 million of those votes came from white people. That's 55%. Only 15.6 million votes came from African-Americans. That's 24%.

"the only point of view that is accepted is that that speaks to the concerns of white men."

That's just nonsense. For one thing, the stupid video about white male privilege got 75 recs. For another, why should income inequality only be a concern for white men? Why should any number of issues only be a concern for white men?

You are still coming back to some people apparently reeling in horror because some other people on the site disagree with their point of view.

Well, GD has always been a bit of a moshe pit. There was a time, after Skinner announced that "the fun is over" when the lounge was kinda GD-lite. We discussed serious issues without all the rancor and blood-feuds of GD. But that time seems to have passed.

Yeah, and ironically most of the people arguing about white privilege, are NOT black people. Is that a black point of view or is it a white liberal point of view?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

216. Again, about as useful as posting "(insert something negative here) is about blacks".

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:25 AM

Jan 2014

I will not use a specific example here to avoid certain DUers missing the point and going off at a tangent again, but this kind of accusatory language generally tends to be counterproductive.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

172. Once again, you are one of the most insightful posters on DU!

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 06:47 PM

Jan 2014

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

173. Thank you.

Reply to nomorenomore08 (Reply #172)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 06:54 PM

Jan 2014

(20,450 posts)

150. You posted violent crimes. Most violent crimes committed by blacks are directed at other blacks.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #147)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:04 PM

Jan 2014

Most violent crimes committed by whites are directed at other whites. There is no such thing as "BLACK CRIME," as there is no such thing as "WHITE CRIME".

MOST CRIMES ARE COMMITTED BY WHITES, PERIOD!!

You posted only homicides, which again, shows how racist you really are.

---

So, let's take your example of violent crimes, since you equate blacks with violence (that's the first thing you thought of when posting about crime--crime = blacks + violence = "black crime&quot

I'll use the brilliant Tim Wise to help me illustrate the facts:

Fact 1: Only about 1 percent of African Americans — and no more than 2 percent of black males — will commit a violent crime in a given year

Fact 2: No more than 0.7 percent (seven-tenths of one percent) of African Americans will commit a violent crime against a white person in a given year, and fewer than 0.3 (three-tenths of one percent) of whites will be victimized by a black person in a given year.

Fact 3: Whites are 6 times as likely to be murdered by another white person as by a black person.

http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/race-crime-and-statistical-malpractice-how-the-right-manipulates-white-fear-with-bogus-data/

Fact 4: And most important: The homicide death rate for black men was actually higher in 1950 than it is today!!

(Look past your own racism and review the FBI statistics that you sent to me!!!)

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus08.pdf

----

And to punch a deeper hole into your blatantly racist "black crime" argument, consider this:

Since there were roughly 31 million African Americans, age 12 and over — and thus eligible for consideration in crime data — in 2008 (this is noted in the same DOJ tables Williams and I are both referencing here), at most, this would mean that for every 1000 blacks in the population there were 30 criminal offenders, and thus, at most, 3 percent of blacks committed a violent crime in 2008 (meaning, importantly, that at least 97 percent did not). And since there were approximately 205 million whites, 12 and over, in the population that year, this would mean that for every 1000 whites in the population there were 12 criminal offenders, and thus, at most, about 1.2 percent of whites committed a violent crime in 2008.*

Of course, in truth, and for both groups, the numbers are quite a bit smaller than this. After all, the 30 offenders per 1000 persons (the 3 percent rate of offending for blacks) are not 30 different people. In other words, to say that 3 percent of blacks commit a violent crime each year would assume that each offender committed only one crime, such that the number of offenses equalled the number of offenders, but that isn’t the case. There are, as we all know, many offenders who commit multiple offenses each year. As such, the number of offenders would be quite a bit smaller than the number of offenses. Criminologists have estimated, for instance, that 70 percent of criminal offenses are committed by just 7 percent of the total offenders, meaning that there is a small hardcore group of seriously predatory criminals out there doing most of the crime. This would mean that 93 percent of all offenders commit just 30 percent of the crimes. So this would mean that of the 950,000 violent crimes committed by blacks in 2008, 70 percent of them (or 665,000) would have been committed by just 7 percent of all black offenders, while 285,000, roughly, would have been committed by the other 93 percent of offenders. If we assume that the 93 percent who weren’t the major repeat offenders only committed one crime each (likely a conservative estimate, but one which errs on the side of the right-wing argument by maximizing the potential numbers of black offenders), this would mean that, at most, the 285,000 offenses actually equate to 93 percent of the offenders. If 285,000 represents 93 percent of all black offenders, then the remaining 7 percent of offenders above that number would come to only an additional 20,000 or so offenders — major hardcore criminals who commit about 665,000 crimes each year. This would mean that at most there might be a little more than 300,000 individual black violent offenders each year. As a percentage of the 12 and over black population in 2008, this would represent only about 1 percent of all blacks who will commit a violent crime in a given year, versus 99 percent who will not.

http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/race-crime-and-statistical-malpractice-how-the-right-manipulates-white-fear-with-bogus-data/

------------

Now, let's concentrate on the latest FBI crime statistics and look at ALL crimes committed:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

But, let's not stop there, let's see if Tim Wise is right. Has the crime rate decline amongst the black population in 40 years, as he claims?

The latest FBI's National Crime Victimization Survey confirms:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mpcncvs.pdf

And, this gem:

Again, black homicides, like all homicides, are in a steep, 20-year decline. In fact, the rates at which blacks both commit and are victims of homicide have shown sharper declines than those of whites. It's true that Chicago has had an unusually violent last few years, but this is an anomaly among big American cities. The 2012 murder rate in Washington, D.C., for example, hit a 50-year low. Violent crime in New York and Los Angeles is also falling to levels we haven't seen in decades.

The numbers don't lie:

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbse&sid=31
http://wamu.org/news/12/12/31/dc_murder_rate_for_2012_at_50_year_low

-------------

I challenge you rid yourself of this horrible disease of internalized racism. You and others in this thread have made incredible assumptions about black people, assumptions that are outrageous!

The notion that liberals cannot be racists is laughable after what I'm reading here.

And your poll? It couldn't be more racially biased and worded.

Educate yourself. Get to know more black people, not just acquaintances or people you think are your friends who are black. Learn more about how black people feel about race, racism and yes, white privilege in this society. Because whether you realize it or not, white people do enjoy white skin privilege. There are clear cut examples of this that shouldn't be lost on them. For instance, the fact that none of them have to have conversations with their black sons about how to dress or act when walking down the street; or with their black daughters about how to behave when going shopping in stores, or that she'll always been viewed as a "welfare queen".

And again, the fact that you raised the issue of "black crime" when there's no such thing reveals what is in your head about black people and your thoughts about black people. And further, that you equated "black crime" immediately with violence added to how you view black people in the way we are and how we behave.

Educate yourself.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

155. I was solely focusing on the race of the perpetrators, not the victims.

Reply to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #150)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:32 PM

Jan 2014

And my point was that if somebody were to repeatedly post something like "as long as blacks commit more murders than whites, attention must be called to it", that this would almost certainly be just as unproductive as someone repeatedly posting "as long as white privilege is denied, attention must be called to it".

The point is that just because something is factual, it is not necessarily a useful strategy to repeatedly point it out.

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

162. What does that have to do with the conversation about eradicating racism in this society????

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #155)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:02 PM

Jan 2014

How does your bringing up "black crime" or anyone referencing "black on black" crime eliminate the cancer of racism in this society???

Someone asked you this question earlier on in this thread and you became defensive and never answered. You attacked that person rather than addressed that concern.

As a black American, I would like to know.

This entire thread is incredibly offensive.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

165. In which post did I "attack a person"?

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:12 PM

Jan 2014

Not trying to be snarky, just genuine curiosity, as cursing at people and calling them names is really not my style (I have been known to be on the receiving end of that kind of thing, however).

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

270. you use every opportunity to downplay an instance of racism or racial inequality

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #165)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 04:32 PM

Jan 2014

when they were attempting to remove the KKK Founder, Nathaniel Bedford Forrest from schools in the South, you cautioned against that saying schools named for Washington and Jefferson would need to be renamed.

when the VA legislature adjourned last MLK day in honor of Stonewall Jackson, you essentially said, "oh yeah, Robert Byrd".

when I posted about White Privilege, you jumped in to say that Obama got elected because he was black.

in another thread, you talked about how blacks are overrepresented as NBA coaches.

you even branch into opposing discussion of "male privilege":

i don't know which is the better example of BS, your posts or what you actually think but know you can't say here.

i'm betting the latter, it's so damned obvious.

you post from a reactionary, conservative positions on civil rights issues. it's not a one off, it's constant, and it is why when you started defending Margaret Thatcher (well, you've defended her before), lots of people felt it all made sense in context.

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

168. you are completely right, now the OP is trying to bait you into getting a hidden post- this is

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 05:51 PM

Jan 2014

nothing more than a fucked up game of semantics to them. They can't even acknowledge the vast majority of DUers who called them on this bullshit poll. Not worth engaging.

Number23

(24,544 posts)

196. "This entire thread is incredibly offensive." As is 99% of the shit that comes from the OP

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:42 PM

Jan 2014

And I'm damn tired of pretending otherwise.

cinnabonbon

(860 posts)

246. No kidding.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4142300

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:25 PM

Jan 2014

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

174. The only "useful strategy" for combating racism is to openly acknowledge its existence, period.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #155)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:02 PM

Jan 2014

Tiptoeing around the issue merely allows people to say "Not my problem!" and go back to sleep.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)

201. So we recognize the obvious.

Reply to nomorenomore08 (Reply #174)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:15 AM

Jan 2014

Once we all acknowledge racism is real, it's over. Then we can all fire up a big bowl of Weedies and chillax.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

207. Nope, but like AA the first step is admitting we have a problem.

Reply to FrodosPet (Reply #201)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:30 AM

Jan 2014

Without that nothing else will change.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

175. You are kicking ass on this thread! I salute you.

Reply to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #150)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:04 PM

Jan 2014

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)

229. Actually ...

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:11 PM

Jan 2014

posting FBI racial crime statistics, with comments like "as long as blacks commit more murders than whites, attention must be called to it", doesn't annoy THIS Black man because yes, Black on Black crime is an issue and it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

However, when they are posted to excuse/distract from crime committed by white folks, that's a different matter.

Discussions of white privilege are more like the former than the latter.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

259. Nye doesn't want to talk about "white privilege" he wants to talk about "black privilege", look:

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:12 PM

Jan 2014

Nye Bevan (13,988 posts)
12. If Barack Obama had been born white, would he have still become president?

Who knows?

Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Lifelong One This message was self-deleted by its author.

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)

5. Reminded by whom?

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:25 AM

Jan 2014

snooper2

(30,151 posts)

7. most white people don't spend their time on random internet forums

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:29 AM

Jan 2014

actually...

most ALL people don't spend their time on random intertubes forums LOL..

The question you are asking is to about .0005% of the population. FYI

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

9. 1500 active DUers? (=0.0005% * 300,000,000)

Reply to snooper2 (Reply #7)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:32 AM

Jan 2014

Not inconceivable but possibly on the low side. It would explain why Skinner and Elad are not yet IPO centamillionaires.

snooper2

(30,151 posts)

11. two years ago Skinner responded to me advising

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:34 AM

Jan 2014

They have about 5-10K unique posters a day FYI

\
Also, I was talking about the whole intertubes--- math works

Recursion

(56,582 posts)

8. It's usually a good idea to, yes (nt)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:31 AM

Jan 2014

democratisphere

(17,235 posts)

(5,169 posts)

203. I don't have to surrender any privledge right?

Reply to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #149)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:27 AM

Jan 2014

From what I am reading, all we have to acknowledge it, and all is good?

Or do we have to keep repeating the same thing over and over? My grandma did that with Alzheimer disease ("Are these your cats? They are pretty!" "Yes, Grandma" "Are these your cats? They are pretty!"...).

After a while, it drains you, and all you can do is glaze over and tune out. Sorry, but that's where this conversation is going on DU.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)

81. Impressive.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:12 AM

Jan 2014

You kept your cool in the face of extreme and unwarranted hostility. Well done.

-Laelth

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

77. When white people deny or dismiss or down play racism they need to be smacked with

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:01 AM

Jan 2014

the lecture.

When white people say unintentionally racist things, they need the lecture to be educated.

CANDO

(2,068 posts)

113. I haven't seen where anyone on here(this thread) has....

Reply to morningfog (Reply #77)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:10 PM

Jan 2014

"denied, dismissed, or down played racism". The person you've been hounding and perhaps bullying hasn't done either of the 3 things you've suggested. Or maybe you have reading comprehension issues? I'm tending to agree that these threads as well as the ever more popular gender war threads are tearing apart DU. Attack away at me now because I'm a racist to even dare to challenge you.

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

115. The poster has a long history on DU.

Reply to CANDO (Reply #113)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:12 PM

Jan 2014

There is no bullying here, but there is someone desperately wanting to claim victimhood.

I have no reason to think you are a racist. I do think you are naive to the OP's tendency to proudly skirt the line and goad people as well as his posting history on race issues.

RobinA

(9,891 posts)

198. Are You Under

Reply to morningfog (Reply #77)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:55 PM

Jan 2014

the impression that being lectured to
is likely to result in a change of attitude? I think that is the point of the OP. It may feel good to be all self-righteous, but it's not the best way to change hearts and minds.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)

202. I fail to see the problem

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:17 AM

Jan 2014

I'm white and have been all my life. I have no problem discussing white privilege. I know interrogating privilege is essential to dismantling racism. You seem to want to pretend you are above it all, that racism has nothing to do with you. That is simply false. As white Americans, we were ALL raised with racist ideas. Confronting them is essential. Here you are essentially insisting that people of color have no right to raise issues that make you comfortable. That is part of the problem. If people of color, like feminists, are not able to raise issues that concern them without being told they are inciting wars or sowing "division" that means the only acceptable discussion is framed by a white male view of the world. That notion is both racist and sexist, and it serves to perpetuate inequality.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,233 posts)

65. Then they don't understand that just by mere virtue of being born with white skin....

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 04:58 AM

Jan 2014

in this society, is "privelege".

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)

296. I have struggled with ALL of those things as a white woman.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 12:53 AM

Jan 2014

And recently too. But you don't speak for me. I understand that as suck as things have been in my life, the added obstacle of trying to do my life as not white would be even more of a struggle.

Posts like yours make DU suck.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

298. I'm not claiming that every white DUer objects to being lectured to about their privilege.

Reply to Starry Messenger (Reply #296)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 01:01 AM

Jan 2014

Clearly, you do not. My point is more that there are enough DUers who do take exception to this so that the "privilege lecture" threads tend to descend into unproductive bickering.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)

299. And inevitably it is white DUers who feel "lectured to" who object.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #298)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 01:05 AM

Jan 2014

And at least half of the people who voted in your poll that they hate those threads are republicans. This place is full of moles.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

305. Ah, the old "DU is overrun by trolls/moles/Republicans" theory.

Reply to Starry Messenger (Reply #299)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:24 AM

Jan 2014

An easy way to dismiss any poll result or prevailing opinion here that you don't like.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)

15. In theory a large enough dose of option 2 should eliminate the need for option 1

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:44 AM

Jan 2014

dunno how well that actually works in practice.

Are we talking DU or the general population? I would think most people here are already aware of it.

Skip Intro

(19,768 posts)

21. Well, you know how arrogant those whites are.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:53 AM

Jan 2014

:|

Seriously. I'm white. I'm male. And I've been scraping bottom for four years since the company I used to work for went under. Nobody has tripped over themselves to hire me because I'm a white male. The mortgage company didn't say, "oh, you're white - we won't foreclose on your house then." I don't get free gas when I'm out of money to pay for it because I'm white or male.

What is my privilege?

And should I feel some kind of shame for being white? For being male?

Iggo

(47,552 posts)

158. Therefore, white privilege does not exist

Reply to Skip Intro (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:48 PM

Jan 2014

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

176. Have you been profiled or harassed by cops because of your skin color?

Reply to Skip Intro (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:11 PM

Jan 2014

Have you been denied a job or loan because of your skin color?

Are people of your race, through no individual fault of their own, synonymous with "thug" and "criminal" in many people's minds?

If the answer to all these is "no" then you do have some relative privilege, even if your personal circumstances suck (and I feel for you there, believe me).

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

288. actually, you did Skip Intro, you did

Reply to Skip Intro (Reply #286)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:08 PM

Jan 2014

from the OP you were referring to:

While talking on the phone to his friend Rachel Jaentel, Trayvon Martin apparently called George Zimmerman, the man who followed him in a vehicle, exited it with a gun, and pursued him against police instructions, a “creepy ass cracker.”

Skip Intro (18,934 posts)

29. Yes, it is a racial slur and that is how it is used today. n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3148106

stop calling me what you are.

Skip Intro

(19,768 posts)

291. Sad to see you implode like this, CreekDog.

Reply to CreekDog (Reply #288)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:15 PM

Jan 2014

Well, kinda.

You flat out called Trayvon "a racist."

You can say you didn't until you're out of breath...but you did.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

292. you must have mixed me up with someone who thinks like you

Reply to Skip Intro (Reply #291)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:21 PM

Jan 2014

nope, never said it, never posted it, never thought it.

nope.

like i've offered many times, feel free to post a poll to ask fellow DUers if they think i did or didn't say what you've accused me of.

go ahead. you keep demurring on that. are you afraid that nobody believes that i actually said that? must be.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

293. oh and Ron Paul!

Reply to Skip Intro (Reply #291)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:29 PM

Jan 2014

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002133609#post64
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002133609#post67

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)

(19,768 posts)

25. +100. n/t

Reply to CFLDem (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:57 AM

Jan 2014

quinnox

(20,600 posts)

26. I usually trash those threads about the topic immediately

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 01:59 AM

Jan 2014

because they are almost always posted in bad faith by the same sub-group of duers *cough* who seem to think they have to educate everyone on their off the wall philosophies, and is usually just an attempt to shame people they disagree with, or make white people feel guilty for being white, which is not something I'm interested in.

(46,192 posts)

273. like the tone of your screen name honoring a gun, rather than Eleanor Roosevelt

Reply to Eleanors38 (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 04:51 PM

Jan 2014

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)

295. Ba-da-BOOM! Tshhh...

Reply to CreekDog (Reply #273)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 12:40 AM

Jan 2014

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)

159. Me too.

Reply to quinnox (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:50 PM

Jan 2014

And your assessment is dead on.

SomethingFishy

(4,876 posts)

161. Bingo...

Reply to quinnox (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:01 PM

Jan 2014

I can only imagine where we would be if people, instead of running around telling everyone how they aren't feeling guilty enough about race, privilege and feminism, actually tried to work together to solve the issues confronting us ALL.

The one thing that pops into my head every time I visit DU is.. "I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY". Yet there are posters here who want to make enemies out of allies. I just don't get it.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

177. "...make white people feel guilty for being white." And we have *liberals* saying things like this?

Reply to quinnox (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:16 PM

Jan 2014

That kind of reactionary bullshit has no place here. Say whatever you want, I don't care.

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)

263. Fuck! That's something that fucking Newt Gingrich would say!! When conservatives call liberals

Reply to nomorenomore08 (Reply #177)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:28 PM

Jan 2014

racists, believe me, I sometimes see why.

Number23

(24,544 posts)

301. And notice the high fives that followed. And from the most predictable of places too.

Reply to nomorenomore08 (Reply #177)

Thu Jan 9, 2014, 01:57 AM

Jan 2014

No surprises there. NONE.

Skip Intro

(19,768 posts)

283. +100. n/t

Reply to quinnox (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 07:41 PM

Jan 2014

Deep13

(39,154 posts)

31. It's not obvious. Frankly, I had little idea...

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:13 AM

Jan 2014

...until I got involved with criminal justice.

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

35. The way you worded the poll suggests the question of whether white privilege exists is up for debate

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:18 AM

Jan 2014

Which should elicit a reminder of the realities of white privilege.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)

37. I guess it depends on the white person

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:21 AM

Jan 2014

I already know how privileged I am, but reading these posts doesn't bother me in the least. Having some modicum of self-confidence, I assume those posts are for people who don't get it.

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

41. That is it. There are some who need to be reminded, or initially educated.

Reply to Nevernose (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:29 AM

Jan 2014

If they make stupid or stupid comments in ignorance of, or in spite of, their privilege, they need to be called out on it. If it is clearly willful ignorance, or denial, they should be more regularly and more stridently reminded. And, their offensiveness is compounded when they take offense at the idea of white privilege.

(11,936 posts)

40. When its necessary to make a point about certain issues, then yes.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:29 AM

Jan 2014

It depends on the context. But when debating someone, typically of the conservative brand, on and issue where they are making some argument against affirmative action where needed or putting down black folks as being "poor entitlement moochers", then hell yea, I will point out very quickly how much better white people have it mostly better than everybody else.

I wouldn't just like, suggest that we need daily reminders of it. But sometimes, its a valid part of the argument.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)

42. White privilege getting the same treatment as male privilege.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:30 AM

Jan 2014

All the same players, all the same miserable, ignorant arguments that it's just to counterproductive to speak about these truths!...

Next we will see that they want it relegated to some place they don't have to see it. ie, they will want a rule that it can't be posted about in GD.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

52. A perfect illustration of the us versus "them" mindset that I don't think is especially productive.

Reply to boston bean (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:45 AM

Jan 2014

"those" players..... "they" will want it relegated..... "they" will want a rule.....

We are all supposed to be on the same side on these issues! That is why I think it's worth considering a less divisive approach.

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

80. Bullshit.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #52)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:08 AM

Jan 2014

Absolute bullshit.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

178. I have no problem with "us" versus "them" if by "them" you mean MRA's, racism-deniers, and other

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #52)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:21 PM

Jan 2014

assorted reactionaries. Or the minority of DU'ers who buy into those people's arguments.

(46,192 posts)

(13,324 posts)

185. We all have varying levels of overall "privilege" due to our individual characteristics.

Reply to DemLife (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:29 PM

Jan 2014

Race, gender, social class, disability/ability, and even physical attractiveness as you stated. But just because this issue is complex and difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it - on the contrary, that only makes it a more important discussion topic.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)

57. I'm sorry, and I'm usually more polite than this, but this poll sucks.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:53 AM

Jan 2014

Big time.

Why not come out and just say, do we really have to talk about white privilege and stuff? I mean my ancestors didn't even own slaves, and I was poor growing up... (this last part is sarcasm, just in case)

Have a good rest of the weekend Nye Bevan.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

58. You too, and thanks for posting (nt)

Reply to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 02:54 AM

Jan 2014

DemLife

(33 posts)

59. You're too polite

Reply to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 03:02 AM

Jan 2014

Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)

275. if that's the goal, then this thread was in service of it

Reply to Warren DeMontague (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 04:54 PM

Jan 2014

and i don't have any doubt that was the goal.

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)

62. To be truthful, although there are *usually* good intentions in mind.....

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 03:16 AM

Jan 2014

.....The sad truth is, it doesn't always do any good. The biggest problem, really, is messaging. For example, the term "white privilege", at least as it was originally coined(though it is, sadly, now regularly abused, at least in some circles.), was a contronym, as it were: using "privilege" to actually describe the lack of social privileges that People of Color enjoy in comparison to "white" folks in this country; also, it can be argued that inn in pre-Mandela era South Africa, it took on a more literal meaning there because whites were not the majority and actually did enjoy privileges above the norm, so However, though, this is also one of the problems that the (mostly American) creators of the term never did address; i.e. that "whiteness" happens to be the "norm", as it were, in not just the U.S., but most of the rest of the West as well.

And herein lies the problem: when most people think of privilege, they think of enjoying life above the norm; like, for example, a preppy kid from Yale or Harvard or the son of an Alabama business owner would indeed have more advantages in life than a middle-class Italian-American professional from Los Angeles or a Jewish factory worker in Cleveland. They don't think of the norm itself.....

And class happens to play a major role as well, one that's at least just as important, or maybe even more so these days, than race. And unfortunately, all too often, for all the talk of intersectionality, class still doesn't quite get brought up as much, at least not in certain circles anyway.

If we want to beat the problems that face us all, we have to try to focus on all problems, including race, but everything else as well. Just my two cents, so take it as you will.

(41,205 posts)

66. I 'passed' ...

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:04 AM

Jan 2014

because I think the second is intrinsically much more important than the first, but may not be fully achievable without the first.

I'm white, by the way.

ETA: I fully agree that it's no use concentrating ONLY on race issues and not addressing class/economic issues. But that doesn't mean that racism, implicit as well as explicit, doesn't exist.

I think that the British phrase 'institutional racism' might be better in many cases than 'white privilege' as not every white person benefits from the 'privilege'. Whatever one calls it, it does need to be addressed.

DLevine

(1,788 posts)

68. Yes, so long as there are white people on a Democratic website

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:11 AM

Jan 2014

who become very defensive and irritable when faced with the fact that there is white privilege, we need to talk about white privilege. Even if you're a poor white person like me, you benefit from white privilege. You should think about why this bothers you so much, because it really is just a fact of life in America.

seaglass

(8,171 posts)

73. +1

Reply to DLevine (Reply #68)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 07:46 AM

Jan 2014

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

76. There are racist posters on DU, so I agree that it is necessary.

Reply to DLevine (Reply #68)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 07:58 AM

Jan 2014

intaglio

(8,170 posts)

(7,410 posts)

(47,209 posts)

103. it's obvious from the pushback and lack of recs that everyone knows what you were saying when

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:45 PM

Jan 2014

you called it "privilege". And brought up black crime. WHUT?!?!
Cute little game, and most DUers see right through it.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

109. Do you agree with the two thirds of DUers who voted "No" in the poll? (nt)

Reply to bettyellen (Reply #103)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:03 PM

Jan 2014

(25,026 posts)

218. What the hell are you going on about Beyoncé for? I thought the quote was germane to what I wanted

Reply to bettyellen (Reply #191)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:16 AM

Jan 2014

to discuss. What is your problem with it exactly?

treestar

(82,383 posts)

(18,115 posts)

121. The disgraceful racial bias is easy to acknowledge. It is blatant.

Reply to Nye Bevan (Reply #117)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:22 PM

Jan 2014

As is much institutional racism. The harder and more important step is the one you refuse to take. That is, the racism is so deep and prevalent and there are many who benefit from the deep racism of our society. YOU are one of them. Until you have the courage to admit that you are benefiting because others are being repressed, YOU are part of the problem.

And you clearly need reminding of that fact. Good luck, I hope you can learn to be honest with yourself.

ProgressSaves

(123 posts)

104. Like anything, it's possible to discuss issues without being militant about it.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:47 PM

Jan 2014

Plenty of intellectual people have productive conversations about race without being offensive.

If one can't convey their thoughts on these issues appropriately, then it's not productive.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)

106. "I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 05:47 PM

Jan 2014

Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I’m with the blacks, because we’re white trash. We’re going across the field.... They’re singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, ‘I tell you what: These doggone white people’—not a word!... Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues.” - Phil Robertson

It may be productive, some obviously are clueless about the subject.

WatermelonRat

(340 posts)

112. The concept is valid, but misunderstanding and misuse of the word is rife

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:09 PM

Jan 2014

While it's an important aspect of a comprehensive academic understanding of racism, I question if its value to laypeople is great enough to warrant the amount of prominence it holds in these debates, especially given the controversy it inevitably sparks. It seems like a distraction to me, really. The problem is that minorities still suffer from racism, not that white people do not experience significant racism.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)

114. Come, come, don't overlook the entertainment value.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:10 PM

Jan 2014

It's not all about productivity.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)

116. The same could be said of a number of other broadbrush...

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:13 PM

Jan 2014

... painting used to lecture one particular demographic or another in pursuit of an agenda.

I find it mostly counterproductive for those who use this destructive tactic.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)

118. It's a mix - there are some here who deny white privilege

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:15 PM

Jan 2014

and there are some who don't fully understand what it is.

On the other hand some who would explain it take it too far as well.

Bryant

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)

119. No.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:18 PM

Jan 2014

It's better to come up with ways to make everyone equal instead of telling white people (or males, or whoever) that they're privileged. It's more productive, I think, to talk about ways on we can fix the system.

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)

120. I think discussion is good. if you don't want to hear it you can trash the thread or don't read it.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:18 PM

Jan 2014

SharpshooterTom

(33 posts)

122. The white population is declining

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:49 PM

Jan 2014

The white population is declining anyway in America, I suspect we'll all be mix raced quite shortly and then hopefully they'll be no racial hierarchy.

Men Without Waves

(6 posts)

123. convert a meritocracy buff to a meritocracy critic instead

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:09 PM

Jan 2014

Last edited Sat Feb 1, 2014, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

It depends on how ignorant the person is you're addressing. If real ignorant, it might take the kind of savy King and Mandela advocated. If you think we don't need conversions out of the ranks of austerity freaks (including the poor ones), think again. Dwelling on the old hegemony pattern might be mentally denying a really big dust bowl headed for anglos and previous Afro-American achievers...which few of us really tried to analyze til it started hang'n round close to home.

Who's the goat and who's the scaper is relative; transposing scapegoat status to the poor as opposed to minorities is an established fact in modern "meritocracies." Check out the anti-austerity demonstrations in Europe. ACORN supporters were aware of this. As long as Americans of whatever race want to BE the TV stereotypes, and are only concerned with getting the stuff these "models" they put in front of our noses get, there will remain IMO the archetypal human sacrifce factor in play behind the marginalization of whatever human demographic. Look at the mindset Powell defaulted to, and his son. If you want the right to support Koch bros politics, I say join the secessionists, cause the nation's supposed to be one of PEOPLE, not corporations. Citizens United was unconstitutional and every bill passed via big corporate money gone to PR should IMO be rescended once there's an amendment.

IMO what stayed the same amidst human phenomena on Earth for a long time was the psychological/societal "need" for scapegoats. There has been change, but change hasn't taken over the whole ball game. Like I say, the goat/scapegoat roles are relative in modern "meritocracies," but they're still around. The relativeness is supposed to indicate some kind of progress, but it's no kind of definition of progress. It's not the progress toward ending poverty that King advocated.

If you wanna prove Euro privilege to yourself, read "Open Veins of Latin America." It'll blow your mind as much as "The Butler."

If American citizens don't examine meritocracy together...and a little revolutionary anthropology together...yeah, we'll for sure arrive in that dust bowl that won't hit Germany and China so bad...all together. http://www.iep.utm.edu/girard/

But then you have the significant separation of N vs S hemisphereic wind currents (Fukishima). Yes, this happens naturally.

My white vote counts? Why did I have to create a ruckus in Nov complaining my touch screen was registering a Pub when I was touching a Dem? Meritocracy.

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)

124. I think it is important to remind people . . .

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:23 PM

Jan 2014

. . . that terms like 'privilege' are, in fact, relative terms, and to remind people of the importance of looking at issues, to the extent possible, through the lens of others as well as through their own.

Shoulders of Giants

(370 posts)

125. White priveledge effects different people at different levels

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:29 PM

Jan 2014

For example, a son or daughter of a white couple with master's degrees will experience much more privilege than a white person born in a trailer to a drug addict with no father around. I know people from both backgrounds, and I can see that in those cases, class defines them more than race. True there are differences in everything, and even the person from the trailer park may experience priveledge from time to time. However, they will not feel like it. The stigma of their class status and upbringing may bite much more. I could see someone from a situation like that getting frustrated with someone claiming they are privileged. I think white privilege is one of many elements that can define someone's life. It is good for people to know it and recognize it. But it also doesn't mean all white people are living life in "easy mode."

gollygee

(22,336 posts)

129. There is absolutely class privilege too

Reply to Shoulders of Giants (Reply #125)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:01 PM

Jan 2014

and it's huge. To really see white privilege, you have to compare people of the same socio-economic class. So someone who is poor and white to someone who is poor and not white. OR someone who is wealthy and white to someone who is wealthy and not white. People who are poor and white have a much easier time finding a job and a place to live than people who are poor and not white, though these days it's still difficult. It's probably more difficult to see in hard economic times too because the lack of class privilege can feel so overwhelming. But white privilege is still very real and still really effects people.

If you compare a wealthy person of color to a poor white person, you aren't looking at just the issue of white privilege. You're comparing one person who has white privilege but lacks class privilege, to another person who lacks white privilege but has class privilege. To only look at white privilege, you have to eliminate class as a factor, so you need to look at people with the same general wealth/class background, and then you should be able to see it clearly.

left coaster

(1,093 posts)

126. I'm sure you meant 'white males', right? nt

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:42 PM

Jan 2014

Response to left coaster (Reply #126)

gollygee This message was self-deleted by its author.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)

130. There are more white families living below the poverty level

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:07 PM

Jan 2014

than black families.

I think they are just more hidden away - especially in rural areas.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)

131. Smaller percentage though

Reply to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #130)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:12 PM

Jan 2014

There are more white families of all income levels so there can be more white families below the poverty level and there can still be a much higher percentage of people of color below the poverty level.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

leftyladyfrommo

(18,868 posts)

132. Let's face it. We have too many people of all persuasions

Reply to gollygee (Reply #131)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:14 PM

Jan 2014

living in poverty.

It's a huge problem in this country.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)

133. Yes

Reply to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #132)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:15 PM

Jan 2014

but that's not what this thread is about. We can know there is poverty and that it's a huge problem in every community, and still talk about race and racism.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)

154. There are a lot of low income white families in urban areas.

Reply to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #130)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:30 PM

Jan 2014

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:14 PM - Edit history (2)

However, if you were to believe the stereotypes, urban poverty is a problem only for people of color.
That right there is one of the ways white privilege disadvantages whites because the stereotype renders low income white urban dwellers as either invisible or anomalies (in that as white people they have no excuse for being poor.)

It also serves to reinforce peculiar notions like people of color are poor because "those people" are just (fill in the insulting blank), that when one sees people of color in urban areas one can assumes they're in poverty until proven otherwise (and the exact opposite is true for whites, namely one assumes whites aren't poor as a default.)

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)

135. As long as state justices like Edith Jones tells us, "African Americans and Hispanics are predispose

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:21 PM

Jan 2014

As long as state justices like Edith Jones tells us, "African Americans and Hispanics are predisposed towards violence and crime..." I would hazard that pointing out the collective privileged from whence those perceptions are rooted is an absolute good, and any hurt feelings are far and few between... up to and including those whose righteous rage is part of their daily diet.

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

137. the OP dog whistled the same sentiment be introducing the concept of "black crime"…..*jaw dropped*

Reply to LanternWaste (Reply #135)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 01:36 PM

Jan 2014

unfucking believable reading this Palinesque crap here. Unfucking real.

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)

142. I'm inclined to believe you...

Reply to bettyellen (Reply #137)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 02:06 PM

Jan 2014

I'm usually willing to give a person the benefit of a doubt, and not being very good with DU names makes that easier than it already is. But once in while, I look at the poster's recent history and in this particular case, some rather curious points-of-view became very obvious. So I'm inclined to believe you...

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

(20,176 posts)

170. This seems like a push poll. n/t

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 06:14 PM

Jan 2014

Boudica the Lyoness

(2,899 posts)

186. Eddie Murphy exposed all this years ago.

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 07:31 PM

Jan 2014

http://www.snotr.com/video/422/Eddie_Murphy_goes_undercover

(53,866 posts)

(9,002 posts)

225. Haven't white people suffered enough?

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:50 PM

Jan 2014

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

228. Now THIS is exactly the kind of thoughtful, helpful and productive approach

Reply to Capt. Obvious (Reply #225)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:00 PM

Jan 2014

that would eliminate racism in VERY short order if more people adopted it. We need more of this type of intelligent, succinct and incisive post on DU.

Thank you.

libodem

(19,288 posts)

230. White People suck

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:34 PM

Jan 2014

... Joking. We are all part of the 99% and the labor class is kicked around in all kinds of ways. All working people need to stick together in solidarity.
Black and white. And all shades and tints in between.

Pagan blessings on us all.

polichick

(37,152 posts)

232. It's essential when confronted with white privilege assholery...

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:52 PM

Jan 2014

which happens rather a lot these days.

Rex

(65,616 posts)

237. It is always a good idea to remind people when they have it better than