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Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:39 PM Jan 2014

Greenwald: 4 points about the 1971 FBI break-in

http://utdocuments.blogspot.com.br/2014/01/4-points-about-1971-fbi-break-in.html?m=1

The New York Times this morning has an extraordinary 13-minute video from a team of reporters including the independent journalist Jonathan Franklin, and an accompanying article by Mark Mazzetti, about the heroic anti-war activists who broke into an FBI field office in 1971 and took all of the documents they could get their hands on, and then sent those documents to newspapers, including the New York Times and Washington Post.

Some of those documents exposed J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO program, aimed at quashing internal political dissent through surveillance, infiltration and other tactics. Those revelations ultimately led to the creation of the Church Committee in the mid-1970s and various reforms. The background on the Church Committee's COINTELPRO findings and the "burglary" operation which exposed it is here.

With the statute of limitations elapsed on their "crimes", ones the FBI could never solve, the courageous perpetrators have now unveiled themselves. The NYT story is based on a new book by Post reporter Betsy Medsger and the forthcoming documentary 1971 (of which my journalistic partner, Laura Poitras, is an Exective Producer). There are four crucial points to note:
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Greenwald: 4 points about the 1971 FBI break-in (Original Post) Luminous Animal Jan 2014 OP
wait for it.... Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #1
Recommended. Autumn Jan 2014 #2
Run away and live to fight another day. WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2014 #17
Excellent post. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #53
You're only a criminal when you reveal State Crimes Against the People Demeter Jan 2014 #73
'labeled criminals by an UNJUST SOCIETY are in fact it's most noble actors'. He has nailed sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #74
Yes he did. Autumn Jan 2014 #75
I agree! Rockyj Jan 2014 #76
So is Greenwald ever going to get back to publishing documents? Blue_Tires Jan 2014 #3
Relax Titonwan Jan 2014 #19
Based on the snail's pace Blue_Tires Jan 2014 #26
You need to read more....because the info is being revealed in numerous KoKo Jan 2014 #33
Stupendous summation, KoKo! Titonwan Jan 2014 #52
Gotta disagree Titonwan Jan 2014 #35
The "hiring a bunch of temps" was being facetious Blue_Tires Jan 2014 #59
K & R malaise Jan 2014 #4
And make no mistake about it, the creation of the Church Committee led to the NSA spying on two U.S. Uncle Joe Jan 2014 #5
COINTELPRO ties in with Dallas and Nov. 22, 1963... Octafish Jan 2014 #69
Four points: ProSense Jan 2014 #6
Why on Earth would he come back to the US MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #8
We do, but that would be the USA, Progressive dog Jan 2014 #11
Our country doesn't torture? Hissyspit Jan 2014 #15
No, the USA doesn't. Progressive dog Jan 2014 #58
"Why on earth" keep asking for clemency or a pardon? ProSense Jan 2014 #12
That's not even remotely an honest argument. Hissyspit Jan 2014 #16
? ProSense Jan 2014 #18
+1 harun Jan 2014 #47
+1 a whole bunch.......nt Enthusiast Jan 2014 #55
According to wikipedia mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #10
Another one ate up with jealousy. Titonwan Jan 2014 #20
Another ProSense Jan 2014 #21
Your credibility is shot Titonwan Jan 2014 #37
Wait ProSense Jan 2014 #38
You bet she's deranged. Titonwan Jan 2014 #43
Seems like ProSense Jan 2014 #45
Not the ones you fantasize about. Titonwan Jan 2014 #50
From the ProSense Jan 2014 #63
yes I see it now that you mention it. N/t wildbilln864 Jan 2014 #82
Something is obviously at play. She hopes to get attention by attacking someone who has sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #78
Sure wish I could 'fan' you Titonwan Jan 2014 #83
basically sibel brought up 3 points questionseverything Jan 2014 #71
RE: Snowden, statue of limitations... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #25
If Cointelpro was illegal, why is the NSA surveillance in the US being done today legal? JDPriestly Jan 2014 #28
Wait ProSense Jan 2014 #30
Nope Titonwan Jan 2014 #44
COINTELPRO JDPriestly Jan 2014 #48
Thank you! +1..............nt Enthusiast Jan 2014 #56
Ellsberg most certainly "inserted" himself in the story. Before the publication of the Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #34
So ProSense Jan 2014 #36
And yet Daniel Ellsberg loves him some Edward Snowden! Titonwan Jan 2014 #39
And ProSense Jan 2014 #42
Stupid? Titonwan Jan 2014 #46
"Yes, I do love me some Ed- just like Dan does! " ProSense Jan 2014 #60
So what? Yes. Both became vocal advocates for their causes. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #49
Bravissimo! Titonwan Jan 2014 #51
Hey, he's free to stay in Russia. ProSense Jan 2014 #62
Explain 'inserted himself into the story'. Thank you ... sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #79
Read post number 2. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #54
Whoa! Rockyj Jan 2014 #77
K & R !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #7
The second of Greenwald's 4 points: enough Jan 2014 #9
minnesota during the republican convention madrchsod Jan 2014 #24
I did a search on "anticipatory prosecutions"... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #31
It could be ANYONE that embarrasses the Government Titonwan Jan 2014 #40
Recommend jsr Jan 2014 #13
K&R nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #14
K&R 99Forever Jan 2014 #22
thanks for the history lesson glen madrchsod Jan 2014 #23
His name is Glenn and there are quite a few people alive now who weren't alive then, Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #32
Dear lordy baby jeebus thank you n/t Titonwan Jan 2014 #41
BIG K&R...For all the Activists agains the Vietnam War...this is more KoKo Jan 2014 #27
This...#1 madfloridian Jan 2014 #29
This post deserves hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Jan 2014 #57
He's exactly right n2doc Jan 2014 #61
Thanks Luminous Animal Titonwan Jan 2014 #64
Thanks for the post locks Jan 2014 #65
Actually I think they did learn from the Vietnam era. Unfortunately since their goals are not sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #81
There's a documentary on Hulu about this right now. Le Taz Hot Jan 2014 #66
This is really good. Thanks for the link. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #67
Thanks! Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #68
K&R Solly Mack Jan 2014 #70
Two part interview on Democracy Now. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #72
Thank you. I'm enjoying this thread. Lots of good info. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #80
Thanks, L.A. n/t Titonwan Jan 2014 #84

Autumn

(45,064 posts)
2. Recommended.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:49 PM
Jan 2014

"Note, too, that these activists didn't turn themselves in and plead to be put in prison by the U.S. Government for decades, but instead purposely did everything possible to avoid arrest. Only the most irrational among us would claim that doing this somehow diluted their bravery or status as noble whistleblowers.

Here again we find another example of that vital though oft-overlooked principle: often, those labeled "criminals" by an unjust society are in fact its most noble actors."

That's fucking awesome

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
73. You're only a criminal when you reveal State Crimes Against the People
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 06:29 PM
Jan 2014

Otherwise, you're one of the Gang.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
74. 'labeled criminals by an UNJUST SOCIETY are in fact it's most noble actors'. He has nailed
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 06:35 PM
Jan 2014

it right there. And the only people who are screaming about 'but he broke the law', mostly the likes of Rep. Peter (we count the votes) King and his right wing ilk, have a lot to scream about. They are complicit in the crimes exposed so we expect them to try everything they can to undermine the courageous people who uncover their dark deeds against this country.

Rockyj

(538 posts)
76. I agree!
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 06:55 PM
Jan 2014

Its been so sad witnessing so many of my Liberal friends rip Edward Snowden's intentions & character apart! Even radio host Stephanie Miller bought in to the character assassination of Snowden.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
3. So is Greenwald ever going to get back to publishing documents?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:56 PM
Jan 2014

he's been doing everything but as of late....

Titonwan

(785 posts)
19. Relax
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:58 PM
Jan 2014

When documents require vetting, it takes time. Beside that, Glenn's probably coordinating three locations for new website (SanFran, D.C. & NYC) and doing it remotely from Rio.
Personally, I think it's pure genius to dole this out incrementally- the propaganda press can't merely dump it all on a friday to be forgotten next week. The press is forced to cover it or be scooped by the others and I'm sure the 'powers that be' are having the screaming me-mee's over this embarrassing situation.
It's not joy I have- witnessing this country having a nervous breakdown- but I don't have any pity since I've seen our leaders fuck us over for the last 35 or so years.
Things are going to come to a head soon and I don't foresee any good times soon.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
26. Based on the snail's pace
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:57 PM
Jan 2014

I'm guessing the vetting is being done by one or two people in an office? Does he need to hire more researchers, temps, whatever? It's one thing to do it "incrementally", it's another thing to slow it to an absolute crawl -- Just because you're satisfied being spoon-fed *one* drip of the faucet every few weeks doesn't mean everyone else is... People told me to be patient last summer; but I've only read a marginal amount of new, real information since then (and on a specifically narrow topic, to boot)...At this rate I'll be collecting social security before the rest of it comes out...

There are also several big-name global players who have hardly (or never) been mentioned in the releases, even though theoretically their names should be all over hundreds of thousands of pages based on what's been released so far...Not to mention what should be a much, much wider topical scope of NSA wrongdoing and how it is connected to U.S. foreign policy/military action...Which unfortunately is giving me a sneaking suspicion that Greenwald is intentionally holding back or protecting some institution or something...

Greenwald is clearly playing an angle here with what information gets disseminated to whom and when; which on the surface is not necessarily a bad thing if you're a believer of the end justifying the means (of course the bottom line is always what that 'end' is)...My only wish is that he'd at least be upfront in that the people's right to know takes a distant backseat to whatever 'gameplan' he's in the process of executing for the present moment...

I do agree that things are coming to a head soon -- But I don't believe it will have anything to do with the NSA when it does...

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
33. You need to read more....because the info is being revealed in numerous
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:52 PM
Jan 2014

Newspapers throughout the world as each country who has been affected has their own media (who has access to the documents) reporting.

It's in international news and Glenn posts two or three times a week in different venues plus the videos of his speaking at the Tech Conference and elsewhere. Frankly, it's so much that he's hard to keep up with how much is coming from his efforts in writing and appearing and the revelations.

It's being orchestrated perfectly so that the drip, drip and follow up gives time for people to absorb..yet, there's so much that even careful watchers like me can hardly keep up.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
52. Stupendous summation, KoKo!
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:53 AM
Jan 2014

These smart boys & girls (can't forget Laura Poitras) know exactly what they're doing. They keenly understand how mainstream corporo/gov owned media tactics work and are countering it.
Could not have said it better than you just succinctly and elegantly did.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
35. Gotta disagree
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:15 PM
Jan 2014

I bet it's a lot more complicated than you understand. Glenn's a lawyer and seeks council from others in the field on what can be and more importantly what should be released. And in what order. This isn't a game of tactics but of long term strategy. I think people have to be woken up slowly or the cognitive dissonance would widespread. And it wouldn't take the corporo-government media much effort at all to label it all a 'conspiracy'. *
As far as Mr. Greenwald hiring a fleet of people poring through this information sounds about as ludicrous as the situation that enabled all of this to occur in the first place- having private companies managing ultra secret government work (e.g. Booz-Allen). In other words- cray cray. Glenn's only letting very trusted people any where near this blockbusting information. Can't blame him one whit.


*One nutty blogger I used to admire believes in lots of 'theories' regarding Ed Snowden and Glenn Greenwald- Sibel Edmonds.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
59. The "hiring a bunch of temps" was being facetious
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 09:35 AM
Jan 2014

But if you don't think there was an army of researchers/vetters/fact checkers dedicated to this when he was still at the Guardian, then you don't know how newspapers operate...And I haven't heard the first real reason on why something *shouldn't* be released, legal counsel or not (I also question the advice of any legal counsel that would compel Greenwald to redact names on released documents, especially if those documents are prima facie evidence of major crimes...)

But time will tell and we'll see what's what at the end of the day...

Uncle Joe

(58,355 posts)
5. And make no mistake about it, the creation of the Church Committee led to the NSA spying on two U.S.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:01 PM
Jan 2014

Senators on that committee, Democrat Frank Church and Republican Howard Baker among other notable Americans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

Committee members[edit]Majority (Democratic) Minority (Republican)

Frank Church, Chairman, Idaho
Philip Hart, Michigan
Walter Mondale, Minnesota
Walter Huddleston, Kentucky
Robert Morgan, North Carolina
Gary Hart, Colorado
John Tower, Vice Chairman, Texas
Howard Baker, Tennessee
Barry Goldwater, Arizona
Charles Mathias, Maryland
Richard Schweiker, Pennsylvania





http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB441/

Washington, D.C., September 25, 2013 – During the height of the Vietnam War protest movements in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the National Security Agency tapped the overseas communications of selected prominent Americans, most of whom were critics of the war, according to a recently declassified NSA history. For years those names on the NSA's watch list were secret, but thanks to the decision of an interagency panel, in response to an appeal by the National Security Archive, the NSA has released them for the first time. The names of the NSA's targets are eye-popping. Civil rights leaders Dr. Martin Luther King and Whitney Young were on the watch list, as were the boxer Muhammad Ali, New York Times journalist Tom Wicker, and veteran Washington Post humor columnist Art Buchwald. Also startling is that the NSA was tasked with monitoring the overseas telephone calls and cable traffic of two prominent members of Congress, Senators Frank Church (D-Idaho) and Howard Baker (R-Tennessee).



Of course this would be an authoritarian's moist dream come true.

Thanks for the thread, Luminous Animal.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
69. COINTELPRO ties in with Dallas and Nov. 22, 1963...
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 02:25 PM
Jan 2014

FBI was doing its COINTELPRO thing on one Lee Harvey Oswald:



The JFK connection: Why COINTELPRO still matters

Jefferson Morley
JFKfacts.org, Jan. 7, 2014

EXCERPT...

Remember that COINTELPRO is short for “Counterintelligence Program.”

Remember that the Counterintelligence Staff, headed by James Angleton, was the component of the CIA that tracked Lee Harvey Oswald closely from October 1959 to November 1963.

As historian David Kaiser revealed in his deeply researched book “The Road to Dallas,” COINTELPRO targeted the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee for disruption and discrediting in the summer of 1963. At the time Lee Harvey Oswald was founding his own chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans — over the written objections of the FPCC’s leadership.

As Bill Simpich documents in his revelatory and important ebook, “State Secret,” the FBI and the CIA’s counterintelligence staff worked together on a program to discredit the FPCC 1963 throughout the fall of 1963.

Here’s the CIA’s Sept. 16, 1963 memo to the FBI about the operation to discredit the FPCC “in foreign countries.”



http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=377132

The author of the memo, John Tilton, was a supervisor of George Joannides, the Miami-based undercover officer whose paid assets in the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) publicized and denounced Oswald’s pro-Castro activities in New Orleans in August 1963.

Eleven days after Tilton wrote his memo, a man identifying himself as Lee Harvey Oswald appeared at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City applying for a visa to travel to Cuba. He gave his self-made FPCC membership card as part of his visa application. Officials in the Cuban Embassy were suspicious of Oswald and rejected his application.

After JFK was killed, Joannides’s assets in the Cuban Student Directorate published the first JFK conspiracy theory linking Oswald to Castro. The group cited Oswald’s FPCC activities in New Orleans as evidence.

After Oswald was killed in police custody, the White House and the FBI moved to convince the public Oswald was the sole assassin.

At the CIA, Angleton killed John Whitten’s efforts to investigate Oswald’s Cuban contacts.

The wishes of the CIA and FBI came true. The FPCC disbanded on December 27, 1963, its name forever tainted by the linkage to the accused assassin.

As Simpich notes correctly, “Counterintelligence is the hidden heart of the story…”

And we first learned about COINTELPRO thanks to the people who came forward today.

CONTINUED...

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/news/the-jfk-connection-why-cointelpro-still-matters/



Thanks, Uncle Joe!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
6. Four points:
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:04 PM
Jan 2014

1) COINTELPRO was an illegal operation.

2) These individuals didn't insert themselves into the story, overshadowing the objective of exposing the operation.

3) Ellsberg didn't flee the country and didn't try to become the story.

4) Greenwald states: "Note, too, that these activists didn't turn themselves in and plead to be put in prison by the U.S. Government for decades, but instead purposely did everything possible to avoid arrest."

It's possible for Snowden to remain in Russia until the statute of limitations runs out. The alternative is to return to the U.S. and face the consequences.

It seems that Greenwald is suggesting that isn't an option.

Senator Sanders comments on Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
58. No, the USA doesn't.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 09:05 AM
Jan 2014

You are confusing my country with a third world dictatorship. You are confusing President Obama with G.W. Bush. The torture stopped, the torture memos were disowned, the USA does not torture.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
18. ?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:40 PM
Jan 2014

"That's not even remotely an honest argument."

I take that to mean you didn't agree with the "argument."

Titonwan

(785 posts)
20. Another one ate up with jealousy.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:14 PM
Jan 2014

I see a few like this on all blogs I read (red, purple or blue) and I've come to believe these smug posters have probably debated Glenn in his comment sections (at various sites) and had their dumb asses handed to them.
Glenn's a (shocka!) real Constitutional lawyer (and don't play one as president) and this petty vindictiveness over his growing fame would be amusing if it wasn't so dismally sad.
Ben Franklin didn't sail to England and stand trial for his whistle blowing. I guess poets and writers who defect from other secret authoritarian governments should go back and face the consequences there, too? (And I know where you're gonna go with that but what you and me see Amerika as- is certain to be quite different)

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
21. Another
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jan 2014

"Another one ate up with jealousy. I see a few like this on all blogs I read (red, purple or blue) and I've come to believe these smug posters have probably debated Glenn in his comment sections (at various sites) and had their dumb asses handed to them."

...Snowden fan trying to sound righteous. "Smug" sounds like projection. Maybe reading too many "red' blogs causes confusion.

Glenn Greenwald, NSA Documents & Checkbook Journalism - BFP Roundtable #02
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024228191

Senator Sanders comments on Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

Titonwan

(785 posts)
37. Your credibility is shot
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:21 PM
Jan 2014

if you think you can link me to that deranged woman's blog. (But I do invite others to go to it and bath in the seething and hissing that emits from Sibel Edmond's beak). Now I know why you think the way You do!
And as far as my man Bernie- he can have this middle of the road opinion. That's fine- still love the hell outta him. But he might get more radical as time (and more revelations) goes by!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
38. Wait
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:26 PM
Jan 2014

"Your credibility is shot if you think you can link me to that deranged woman's blog"

...she's "deranged"? http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023309559

"And as far as my man Bernie- he can have this middle of the road opinion. That's fine- still love the hell outta him. But he might get more radical as time (and more revelations) goes by! "

Well, at least a "middle of the road opinion" doesn't earn your "man Bernie" the label "deranged."

Also, I wouldn't say "your credibility is shot," it's simply what "credibility?

Titonwan

(785 posts)
43. You bet she's deranged.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:42 PM
Jan 2014

Professional jealousy is vicious and will drive some over the edge, I'm afraid. Oh, don't get me wrong, I've read her for years, struggling along trying to get the truth out (in her opinion) but now she's just apoplectic about Glenn's rising star and you can simply read it in every article she's spits out. Old divas are hard to look at.
Another cray-cray is Bob 'will suck a prez's dick if he's a Democrat' Cesca is another bitter and wretched wannabee writer who loves attacking any thing Glenn™.
Digby, Matt Taibbi, Jeremy Scahill and a host of other intrepid journalists greatly admire Glenn's work (long before the Snowden files).
Guess, c'mon! Who do you think I'm behind?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
45. Seems like
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jan 2014
You bet she's deranged.
Professional jealousy is vicious and will drive some over the edge, I'm afraid. Oh, don't get me wrong, I've read her for years, struggling along trying to get the truth out (in her opinion) but now she's just apoplectic about Glenn's rising star and you can simply read it in every article she's spits out. Old divas are hard to look at.
Another cray-cray is Bob 'will suck a prez's dick if he's a Democrat' Cesca is another bitter and wretched wannabee writer who loves attacking any thing Glenn™.

...some issues are in play. LOL!

Titonwan

(785 posts)
50. Not the ones you fantasize about.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:31 AM
Jan 2014

You really have to wonder when people, such as yourself, who want to focus on the messenger and not the message.
You wouldn't know jack, unless this broke, and when the next revelations come out- I'm sure you'll claim to have known that too.
Any one else seeing this? (Can't blame if you're not).

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
63. From the
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 10:10 AM
Jan 2014

"You really have to wonder when people, such as yourself, who want to focus on the messenger and not the message."

...the person who said: "Yes, I do love me some Ed- just like Dan does! "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024295004#post46

"You wouldn't know jack, unless this broke, and when the next revelations come out- I'm sure you'll claim to have known that too."

Speak for yourself. I didn't need Snowden, hero, to know what the hell was going on.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
78. Something is obviously at play. She hopes to get attention by attacking someone who has
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 12:26 AM
Jan 2014

earned his reputation as a real journalist. Nothing strange about it. It happens to all real journalists when they show up the sycophants by demonstrating what journalism really looks like. The hangers on who can't attention by doing something worthwhile, become the screamers desperately trying to grab the coat tails of those who earned the respect they have, by showing how 'edgy' they are.

questionseverything

(9,653 posts)
71. basically sibel brought up 3 points
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 02:38 PM
Jan 2014

i just watched that boiling frog video....and have not researched it or decided yet but

1.he is doing it for money.....well those of us fighting for justice have learned we can not get the message out w/o money

2.he has censored other stories before.......the states secrets example she gave and the reason behind it (gov't not wanting Americans mentioned only muslims) sounds pretty believable to me but sibel said she was censored herself when she wrote the piece for vanity fair on election theft so she should understand that to get anything out there into the mainstream we have to go along with corporate censors

3. and this is the big one...if greenwalds new boss (the paypal guy) does have big connections to booz Hamilton.....that is dangerous and needs further examination

//////////////////////////

reACTIONary

(5,770 posts)
25. RE: Snowden, statue of limitations...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:45 PM
Jan 2014

It may not be possible for Snowden to remain in Russia until the statue of limitations runs out and then return with impunity. My understanding is that there are ways to keep a criminal investigation active so that the statue of limitations does not expire - and I think that is especially true if there is a known suspect who has fled the jurisdiction.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
28. If Cointelpro was illegal, why is the NSA surveillance in the US being done today legal?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:01 PM
Jan 2014

FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[10] including communist and socialist organizations; organizations and individuals associated with the Civil Rights Movement, including Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and the Congress of Racial Equality and other civil rights organizations; black nationalist groups; the American Indian Movement; a broad range of organizations labeled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society and the Weathermen; almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, as well as individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; the National Lawyers Guild; organizations and individuals associated with the women's rights movement; nationalist groups such as those seeking independence for Puerto Rico, United Ireland, and Cuban exile movements including Orlando Bosch's Cuban Power and the Cuban Nationalist Movement; and additional notable Americans —even Albert Einstein, who was a socialist and a member of several civil rights groups, came under FBI surveillance during the years just before COINTELPRO's official inauguration.[11] The remaining 15% of COINTELPRO resources were expended to marginalize and subvert white hate groups, including the Ku Klux Klan and the National States' Rights Party.[12]

FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover issued directives governing COINTELPRO, ordering FBI agents to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" the activities of these movements and their leaders.[13][14] Under Hoover, the agent in charge of COINTELPRO was William C. Sullivan.[15] Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, although himself the target of FBI surveillance[citation needed], personally authorized some of these programs.[16]

. . . .
The FBI improperly opened investigations of American activist groups, even though they were planning nothing more than peaceful civil disobedience, according to a report by the inspector general (IG) of the U.S. Department of Justice. The review by the inspector general was launched in response to complaints by civil liberties groups and members of Congress. The FBI improperly monitored groups including the Thomas Merton Center, a Pittsburgh-based peace group, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), and Greenpeace USA, an environmental activism organization. Also, activists affiliated with Greenpeace were improperly put on a terrorist watch list, even though they were planning no violence or illegal acitivities. The IG report found the "troubling" FBI practices between 2001 and 2006. In some cases, the FBI conducted investigations of people affiliated with activist groups for "factually weak" reasons. Also, the FBI extended investigations of some of the groups "without adequate basis" and improperly kept information about activist groups in its files. The IG report also found that FBI Director Robert Mueller III provided inaccurate congressional testimony about one of the investigations, but this inaccuracy may have been due to his relying on what FBI officials told him.[71]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

The current NSA program is secret, and therefore we do not know who they are targeting. Again, I would like to know whether liberal thinkers, liberal people are included in the leadership of the NSA beyond those President Obama personally picked.

The NSA program has the potential to continue activities similar to those of COINTELPRO.

Some surveillance is probably needed for our security. But the people overseeing the surveillance should be from all political persuasions and should have complete access to anything the surveillance system does and should know exactly who or what organizations are being placed under surveillance. Further, any member of the group overseeing the surveillance should be free to go to the public when any question arises as to political surveillance. I fear that there may be a great deal of political surveillance going on today.

Now, you can reassure me all you want. You can call me a conspiracy-theorist all you want.

The fact is that COINTELPRO targeted those with political ideas that differed from the leadership of COINTELPRO and elected leadership in the country. They destroyed the freedom of people who disagreed with them in the slightest.

Why in heavens name would they spy on Art Buchwald?

There is no justification for placing the American people under widespread surveillance. It violates our Constitution. The secrecy surrounding this program exists, ad Thomas Drake explained because those who manage it from day to day know very well that if the American people really understood the program, it would be clearly and without any doubt ended.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
30. Wait
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:09 PM
Jan 2014

"If Cointelpro was illegal, why is the NSA surveillance in the US being done today legal? <...>The current NSA program is secret, and therefore we do not know who they are targeting."

...are you arguing that "COINTELPRO" wasn't "Illegal" or are you saying the NSA program, which is legal, is "illegal" based on something you don't know? All this does is show that Snowden's revelations aren't in the same league. Guess his "mission accomplished" was premature, huh?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
48. COINTELPRO
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:23 AM
Jan 2014

was illegal because it violated our constitutional rights.

The NSA surveillance does the same thing. It violates our constitutional rights. From what I have learned about the NSA surveillance, it is just as illegal as COINTELPRO and for the same reason -- because it violates our Constitution and its guarantees of human rights for all American. Its ultimate purpose is to silence dissent. The only reason that people think it is legal is that they don't really understand what it is doing. That's my best guess.

And it is only a guess because the program is secret.

You can assume that the NSA surveillance is harmless and legal. But you can't prove it. Two courts have found it illegal and one has found it legal. But neither we nor the courts know the full extent of the program.

So my guess is as good as anyone else's.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
34. Ellsberg most certainly "inserted" himself in the story. Before the publication of the
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:04 PM
Jan 2014

Pentagon Papers was complete, he was interviewed by Walter Kronkite on CBS News, and came out as a vehement anti-war proponent. He was interviewed and profiled by the NY Times numerous times and gave speeches and held fundraisers.

You totally missed the point of #4. Greenwald is specifically addressing those who advise Snowden "to face the music" when likely they wouldn't have offered similar advice to the COINTELPRO 8.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
36. So
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:21 PM
Jan 2014

"Ellsberg most certainly 'inserted' himself in the story"

...you're admitting that Snowden inserted himself into the story? Did Ellsberg do a "Christmas message."

Ellsberg took a completely different path than Snowden.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
39. And yet Daniel Ellsberg loves him some Edward Snowden!
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:27 PM
Jan 2014

Now, you've stooped so low as to be jealous that Edward got national attention for a fuckin' Christmas message? You, my man, are reaching.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
42. And
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:34 PM
Jan 2014

"And yet Daniel Ellsberg loves him some Edward Snowden!"

...do you love you "some Edward Snowden"?

"Now, you've stooped so low as to be jealous that Edward got national attention for a fuckin' Christmas message?"

What is with the "jealous" meme? Here let me fix that: Edward got national attention for a fuckin' stupid Christmas message.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
49. So what? Yes. Both became vocal advocates for their causes.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:27 AM
Jan 2014

Ellsberg went on an anti-war campaign getting himself arrested through the Reagan years. Snowden is on an anti-surveillance campaign.

Every whistle-blower takes a different path. There are no cookie-cutter rules. There is no guidebook. There is no hallowe'en costume that makes one say, "Aha! Now that is a whistleblower!"

Ellsberg may have "faced the music" but the music he faced was a lilt. Snowden faces a military marching band with a regiment of sousaphones.

Your protestations just get weaker and weaker swirling down the toilet bowl in ever decreasing circles.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
51. Bravissimo!
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:36 AM
Jan 2014
"There is no hallowe'en costume that makes one say, "Aha! Now that is a whistleblower!""
Now that's a costume I'd pay good money for!
Excellent observation, btw.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
62. Hey, he's free to stay in Russia.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 10:07 AM
Jan 2014

From there, no one can force him to "face the music."

"Your protestations just get weaker and weaker swirling down the toilet bowl in ever decreasing circles."

I'm LMAO. Some have reduced the anti-domestic surveillance push to trying to create a hero out of a guy stuck in Russia.

I mean, he's Paul Revere and Ellsberg.

You know why this is perfect:

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

For "educating the people," he gets a chance to not "have to spend his entire remaining life abroad," but you know, he has no plan on coming back to "face the music."

So where does that leave him and his fans: Begging for clemency and trying to justify why he should stay in Russia.

It's all about Snowden, hero.



Rockyj

(538 posts)
77. Whoa!
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 07:15 PM
Jan 2014

1) The NSA is illegal because its collecting meta data on American citizens without probable cause.
2)The CORPORATE MEDIA purposely made it a story about Snowden in order to discredit him, a well known tactic that you all bought in to!
3) Times are different we don't know what Ellsberg would have done it the same way today with our police state and the so called "Patriot" Act.
4) Don't understand why Snowden should be required to face any consequences, he's a hero! And as a result, hopefully, my children and grandchildren will be able to live in a free & democratic country instead of a Orwellian dystopia.

enough

(13,258 posts)
9. The second of Greenwald's 4 points:
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jan 2014

2) The crux of COINTELPRO - targeting citizens for their disfavored political views and trying to turn them into criminals through infiltration, entrapment and the like - is alive and well today in the United States. Those tactics are no longer called COINTELPRO; they are called "anticipatory prosecutions" and FBI entrapment. The targets are usually American Muslims but also a wide range of political activists. See here for how vibrant these COINTELPRO-like tactics remain today.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
24. minnesota during the republican convention
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:34 PM
Jan 2014

a year or so later a group in chicago. if i remember correctly they were infiltrated by the fbi`s agent provocateurs....

reACTIONary

(5,770 posts)
31. I did a search on "anticipatory prosecutions"...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:27 PM
Jan 2014

... and found this article by Glenn Greenwald: The FBI's anticipatory prosecution of Muslims to criminalize speech

In it he claims that US-born Hamid Hayat, who was sentenced to 24 years in prison for allegedly attending a terrorist training camp when he was 19, is a victim of this tactic.

He quotes this description of the pressure put on Hayat by Khan, the FBI informant:

"Hayat traveled with his family to Pakistan in April 2003. Two of the recorded conversations took place when he was there. Like the earlier conversations, they covered a wide range of topics. On one occasion, Khan scolded Hayat for being lazy and not going to a training camp. In response, Hayat protested that the camp was closed during hot weather and that had the camp been open, he 'would have been there.' On another occasion, Khan relayed to Hayat a conversation in which Hayat's father explained that '[Hayat wi]ll enter the Madrassah, and, God Willing, he [will] go for training!' Hayat responded to Khan: 'Um-hmm. . . . No problem, absolutely.'"


Now, Khan is clearly not only encouraging Hayat to engage in an activity that is blatantly illegal under American law, he is engaging in an illegal activity himself (terrorist recruitment). If Hayat had simply picked up the phone and ratted Khan out to the FBI he would have been free, clear, off the hook, totally out of the woods. They would have moved on to someone who actually was predisposed towards and motivated to commit the crime. Indeed, Greenwald tells us that "targeted mosque members themselves have reported the informant to the FBI" on many occasions.

It seems to me that Hayat got what was coming to him, for a crime that he did indeed commit.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
40. It could be ANYONE that embarrasses the Government
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:29 PM
Jan 2014

or more importantly- one of their Corporate bosses.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
23. thanks for the history lesson glen
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:30 PM
Jan 2014

anyone who was active in the anti-war movement during those years knew what the fuck was going on. we all knew that there were informants or people we could`t trust. we knew that we were being filmed , photographed ,or listening to the click. these people did two things..they exposed what was going on to the public and confirmed what we had a hunch about..the fbi was running deep surveillance on the anti-war movement.

i personally had two encounters with the fbi. i was surprised about what they knew and what they were looking for. i was extremely lucky that the city police chief vouched for me. the second encounter was the local fbi agent made a phone call to my friend about an upcoming a drug raid on a small college.seems a hashish dealer was the son of a diplomat. they were warned and just one person was arrested. yes lots of deals were struck during those years and they are today.
it`s the cost of doing business.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
32. His name is Glenn and there are quite a few people alive now who weren't alive then,
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:46 PM
Jan 2014

read Greenwald's columns, and know little to nothing about COINTELPRO or the theft.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
27. BIG K&R...For all the Activists agains the Vietnam War...this is more
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:58 PM
Jan 2014

Vindication to prove how they spied on Peace Activists back then. That these Activists have Come Forward NOW can only help Snowden and Other Whistleblowers Cases about how One's Duty as an American Citizen is to come Forward and Do what One Can when our Government Tips Over into tactics that our ancestors fought against during the Revolution where we broke away from English Repression of our Colonies.

Generations seeing the Statue of Liberty as their Beacon of Hope from the terrible repression they were escaping from..had, and have, a duty to try to take back America from those who would lead us into the very kind of policies of personal freedom restrictions and political repression that American Immigrants sought refuge and relief from with every wave of new immigration.

And...we should never forget how they worked against the Civil Rights Movement ..spying on Dr. King and the Female Right to Vote Movement in the early 20th Century. They spy and spy and one has to keep on top of them. WE PAY THEM WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS...to SPY on US and to Send Military Equipment to other countries that we SPY on Leaders of?

This is not what we were taught as children...by those good folks who taught us to THINK....

madfloridian

(88,117 posts)
29. This...#1
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jan 2014
(1) Just as is true of Daniel Ellsberg today, these activists will be widely hailed as heroic, noble, courageous, etc. That's because it's incredibly easy to praise people who challenge governments of the distant past, and much harder to do so for those who challenge those who wield actual power today.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
64. Thanks Luminous Animal
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jan 2014

For the whiners about Ed not coming back to face 'justice'--

"The activists who stole FBI documents exposing widespread, illegal domestic surveillance in 1971 say Edward Snowden did the right thing in fleeing the country instead of awaiting punishment for leaking sensitive NSA files."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/07/fbi-burglars-snowden_n_4557226.html

Can't blame Mr. Snowden one bit.

locks

(2,012 posts)
65. Thanks for the post
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 01:20 PM
Jan 2014

During this time I was in Paris with an interfaith delegation observing the Vietnam Peace Talks and listening to US and North and South Korean leaders We found out from these documents in the NYTimes the illegal and immoral actions of Hoover who would stop at nothing to control the massive protests taking place all over the US. Many peaceful protesters landed in jail; MLKing was vilified for speaking out against the war, and no hawks were ever prosecuted for carrying out this demonic war and the deaths of millions.
Instead of learning from this time it seems the government has extended and increased its unconstitutional surveillance and harassment of peaceful citizens.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
81. Actually I think they did learn from the Vietnam era. Unfortunately since their goals are not
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 12:38 AM
Jan 2014

honorable, they learned how to try to avoid mistakes they made back then leading in the end, to an end to their wars for a while. They learned, 'never have a draft again' because a draft means EVERYONE is going to get involved.

They learned to crack down EARLY and with massive force as soon as people begin to take to the streets, see Occupy Wall St.

They learned that in order to get their wars going again they would have to engage in massive amounts of 'patriotic' propaganda and to USE tragedies such as 9/11 to silence anyone who dared to disagree with them.

Apparently they never went away, the criminals from back then. Cheney and Rumsfeld eg are relics from the Nixon Administration among others.

Had the rule of law been applied after the Iran Contra affair and Watergate this country would be very different today. What WE learned was that when you don't properly prosecute real traitors, they will return again and again to continue their criminal activities.

And once again they got off the hook AFTER we learned for sure that Bush/Cheney lied this country into war. So they are still here, still controlling things and will until one day the country will have had enough.

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