In a world where science works folks want to sound scientific

[cthulu2016]

Science, being our most notable success story, has a powerful reputation.

This has resulted, over the last century, in people of faith being embarrassed to talk about faith, because faith sounds flawed in the context of science.

"I believe some things with all my heart for which I have no evidence beyond my feeling/conviction that they are true."

There was nothing particularly controversial in that statement throughout most of human existence. It is almost the definition of faith.

From a scientific perspective, however, the statement sounds bad.

So people start hedging, trying to have things both ways. "How dare you say there is no rational basis for my faith?"

Dude... if there was a rational basis it wouldn't be faith. That's not a slam, it is a definition.

And if a person has faith then they should not pridefully claim understanding of the subjects of that faith because faith is NOT understanding.

Mysteries are called mysteries for a reason.

Yes, it sounds bad to hear, "Your belief in X is irrational." That is because "irrational" is a pejoritive term in our (post-enlightment) world.

But it is irrational by definition. How we LOAD The word irrational, what that word connotes, is another matter.

[upaloopa]

1. Why can't we just leave each other alone if they aren't hurting anyone?

You can have a lot more good personal interaction if you don't dwell on idological differences all the time.
We are so damned devided in this country and all we do here is look for more issues to fight over.
I think it is part of our de-evolution

[gcomeau]

2. Because of the "if they aren't hurting anyone" part usually not applying. -eom

[upaloopa]

3. We. I think that is an excuse and not true

[gcomeau]

4. Whether you think it's true...

...applies only to whether you should be making an issue of it.

If I think it's true, and for good damn reason, then according to your own logic I'm justified in saying something about it.

[upaloopa]

5. It never ceases to amaze me that those who

think they need to teach the rest of us can only see the world as black or white. The world is mostly gray my friend.

[gcomeau]

7. You know what never ceases to amaze me?

The ability of people to respond to posts with totally unrelated generic observations.

Nothing I said had the first thing to do with seeing the world in black an white.

[haele]

8. The problem comes from when people's beliefs dictate legal actions.

There is no problem with people who believe in things that have no proof to them. The problem occurs when those people attempt to legislate or to coerce the actions of others based on their personal justification of that belief.

I believe in what I believe in. My beliefs work for me for the most part, and are not too outrageous when it comes to a common law that represents and protects everyone, no matter what they believe, and supposedly does not give one particular belief or "world view" preference over another.

But even then - I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way about my beliefs as I do. I don't expect even my husband to follow my beliefs, nor would I try to coerce his personal choices and actions to fit my beliefs. He is who he is, and who he is is compatable with my beliefs. But he is still his own person, just as the rest of my family and everyone I love and care for - or don't care for - are who they are. I can't see out of their eyes, and they can't see out of mine.

Because of that, Black and White needs to exist in personal and legal boundaries. Everything else, including personal beliefs, are grey, and so long as the grey - or any other color or mix of colors - must be freely accepted, or otherwise by necessity shouldn't bleed over those boundaries. So long as black and white remain black and white where it needs to be, it's all fine for everyone.

So when someone tells me they have the answer to my problems if I'd just see things "their way", it's a bit difficult for me to be silent if "their way" - that makes them comfortable at my expense, is affecting my legal rights and personal choices.

Haele

[Drew2510]

6. "I believe some things with all my heart for which I have no evidence beyond my feeling/conviction."

Isn't this the very essence and meaning of "faith?"