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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPope Francis calls abortion 'horrific' in toughest remark to date
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-francis-calls-abortion-horrific-in-toughest-remark-to-date-1.2494277The pope made his toughest remarks to date on abortion in his yearly address to diplomats accredited to the Vatican, a speech known as his "State of the World" address.
"It is horrific even to think that there are children, victims of abortion, who will never see the light of day," he said in a section of the speech about the rights of children around the world.
Abortion, he said, was part of a "throwaway culture" that had enveloped many parts of the world.
"Unfortunately, what is thrown away is not only food and dispensable objects, but often human beings themselves, who are discarded as unnecessary," he said.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss - an old, unmarried, man telling women what they should and shouldn't do with their bodies.
Sid
cali
(114,904 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)How divisive is an issue that has me disagreeing with you and agreeing with Sid? This completely transparent effort to normalize this latest enabler of evil will not be good for DU.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)the Republican Party. I agree with Sid. Which I never do.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2014, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)
As long as there are threads genuflecting at the altar of Pope Photo-Op, I'll post threads that are critical of him and the international crime syndicate that he heads up.
Sid
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I don't want to be part of someone getting banned unless they are doing something really abusive.
But yes - if you want others to play by the rules you should play by them yourself.
Bryant
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Archae
(46,363 posts)As is, outside of some token gestures and rhetoric, the Pope is doing nothing at all to stop child molesters, and those who cover up for them.
Cardinal Law is still a Cardinal.
Archbishop Finn is still an Archbishop.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)With Scalia and Kagan fawning at their feet.
Terrorist thugs
rug
(82,333 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
rug
(82,333 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)no matter how many posts we see each day saying how great this guy is.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)that's gotta count for something.
Sid
snooper2
(30,151 posts)papal branded condoms
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)MineralMan
(146,341 posts)Not for me!
LuvNewcastle
(16,862 posts)but it won't. That makes me doubt their sincerity when it comes to gay rights and women's rights. Apparently they can ignore those issues because the Pope talks about the evils of capitalism. I agree with his views on economics, but gay rights and women's rights are just as important as that is, and they can't be ignored because someone's in the thrall of a new holy man who talks about helping the poor.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Very little peeps on the pro-killing/torturing of gays policy of the Nigerian Cardinal - that thread sank like a stone.
SamKnause
(13,112 posts)Demonizing birth control for women is horrific.
Mothers watching their starving children dying is horrific.
Denying birth control to women and forcing them to bring children into a world where they will starve is horrific.
War is horrific.
Homelessness is horrific.
Poverty is horrific.
Female genetaila mutalation is horrific.
Rape being used as a tool of war is horrific.
Abortion does not make my list of horrific things.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Abortion AND contraception are moral and positive choices that liberates women, saves lives, and protect families.
Nice list, btw...
SamKnause
(13,112 posts)Thanks for the addition.
I don't know how I left out the most obvious one, protecting child abusers.
Thanks for the compliment as well.
Best to you and yours.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)... all except the first (and third, but it's basically the same point) ARE NOT horrific. Please show me the quote?
SamKnause
(13,112 posts)It is not a quote.
It is my list of things I find horrific.
ananda
(28,890 posts)And that's too bad.
polichick
(37,152 posts)A top-down institution such as the pope should be obsolete by now.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The opposition to equality for gay people I expected, but I really thought folks would stand up for reproductive choice instead of adopting Francis' nuttery. Anyone who promotes this guy and claims to be pro choice or pro gay is full of themselves and of shit.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Yes, that has been shocking and a huge disappointment. Even more shocking is how many women defend this misogynist bigot.
Johonny
(20,927 posts)safe, legal, rare has been the party platform how long now? I doubt Hillary will run with any other message. If the Pope wants to actually lower the need for abortions then he will find liberals and not conservatives are the ones willing to take the first step with sex education, better career opportunities for woman, contraception, family planning etc...
If Pope hates abortion then the Pope should hate the rethug party that drives the need for them ever higher.
I never understand why so many media writers assume the opposite of Conservatives prohibition on abortion is somehow that liberals want to have lots and lots of them.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)What a guy.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)...or the death penalty...
...or war...
...or starving poor people to help some rich assholes...
The thought process the pope is using isn't "Fuck women!" but "Don't kill people!"
The Bible is pretty black and white on the topic of killing people, regardless of what certain groups of Protestants think. Liberal pro-choice Catholics merely disagree with the official stance on what constitutes something you can "kill" versus a "medical condition."
Christians are supposed to follow that 10 Commandments thing, which the Catholic version of the Bible says "thou shalt not kill," as opposed to "thou shalt not murder, unless you feel like it, it involves minorities..." apparently listed in other Bibles.
That's the problem with me: I can recognize why different groups of people have different beliefs than me. I understand where they come from. Frankly, I respect Catholics who are against the whole death thing all the time a hell of a lot more than some redneck who lynches black people and executes prisoners but whines about how evil abortion is.
DISCLAIMER (because even though I said above my beliefs are different, my words will be taken as an affirmation of support): I feel abortion isn't for me -- as a man, I feel it may be an unnecessary procedure -- but I'm not going to damn anyone for it -- and I oppose probing, violent videos, heartbeat hearing or other requirements. I realize, even if I opposed it, it's going to happen. I'd rather have it done safely by a trained professional than via an Internet article with a coat hanger (I read and saw The Cider House Rules early on in my life).
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)which death is the ascribed punishment right after it says 'don't kill' and the God of that book calls for massive death by war to enemies of his side. How is that 'black and white'? One is supposed to kill one's bratty kid, one's neighbor for sewing the wrong crop, gay people, adulterous women, people who are of another faith. The list of stoning offenses in the OT is long, long, long. 10 Commandments, OT.
I assume you are against equality for gay people but disagree with the Bible that we should be killed?
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)And when was the last time the pope said to kill gay people?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The Old Testament, home of the 10 Commandments, lists dozens of capital offenses and is filled with God ordering brutal war and mass killing in spite of the Commandment. So to claim there is a very clear 'no killing' thing being taught is not accurate, nor is it accurate to claim the Church has avoided killing it's enemies. They burned people to death, among other things. So that 'black and white' no killing thing is not so black and white, and as an excuse for opposing choice it is shaky indeed.
That's what I said, while I did not say what you claimed, at all. So let's call it a draw and move on. I should not have been rude to you either.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Until then, your pope worship shows how fucked up your priorities are.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)out of public policy.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I wish they would STFU about abortion, since none of them can experience what one is like. They just continually embarrass my gender with their ignorant words.
Drale
(7,932 posts)He's done and said some good things but things in the Catholic Church are not going to turn overnight. He's a step in the right direction not a leap.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Does he mention redistributing wealth? Justice? Democracy?
Or is he just another old man who tells people what they should and shouldn't do?
http://67.228.115.45/showthread.php?p=9118971
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)I'm not sure, tho. Why don't you send him a note and ask him?
What does Pope Photo-Op think about JFK nuttery and crop circles, octafish?
Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Why don't you like it when people point out hypocrisy?
Is that what you were trying to do?
You were seriously try to equate what a magician / entertainer has to say, with a pronouncement from the fucking Pope?
Oh, octafish. You've outdone yourself this time. This has gone way, way beyond wildly entertaining and into epic territory.
Edit: not really sure what linking to a post about Henry Gordon has to do with whatever you're trying to say.
Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)It's interesting to discover how many people who post on DU also were posting on Amazing Randi.
The common denominator: Zero tolerance for others' opinions that disagree, whether the subject is religion or the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
If you were open minded, a democratic attitude I might add, I wouldn't point this out. Perhaps you should write a letter to the Amazing Randi about this.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Like when telling somebody to shut up, at least one person doesn't like it. It's funny that way.
PS: The emoticons are so you.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)That would make sense, seeing how you two know and say the same things so often.
A coincidence, probably.
Is there something you want me to ask him since you are obviously too scared to?
Really, why are you afraid of Randi, Octafish?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Anyone who's read my journals on DU3 or DU2 can see that. Besides, were I some kind of a chicken hearted lily livered turd, I wouldn't go after the BFEE -- the War Party and its minions and hypocrites in the national security state -- or wonder about things that invite ridicule from the unknowing and the unaware, as well as from the devious and the vindictive, such as UFOs or crop circles, or other interesting and unexplained phenomena.
Even though they and their lackeys have access to the passwords, among other things, I've written about them. What's interesting, when considering the question of cowardice, is seeing that you never post anything critical of the warmongers and banksters of the BFEE on any thread I've started on DU. Nor do any turn up using the GOOGLE site search tool. Maybe not criticizing the warmongers and banksters of the BFEE is the smart thing to do in your book. That's not brave in mine.
I'm sure the BFEE is shaking in their boots knowing you post all their secrets here on DU.
For that matter, I'm sure the aliens are equally afraid of you since you are exposing the mysterious world of crop circles.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I'll light a candle for you.
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)ellie
(6,929 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)so I guess that's an improvement.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)What is more, he is unrealistic about the earth's capacity to feed the population we would have if all fetus's made it to live.
God does not will all fetus's to live. The percentage of pregnancies that end in miscarriages proves that.
I wonder whether the Pope thinks that every married woman should mourn every menstrual cycle in which no child is conceived.
The Pope is completely out of touch on population issues.
The truth is that until the 1920s, many, many people even in Europe went to bed very hungry every night. The earth can only tolerate so many human beings. Apparently God wills it so. It is human, scientific efforts that have enabled us to feed as many of God's children on earth as we do.
If the Pope wants to continue to encourage overpopulation, he should fund a lot of research that concerns feeding all the hungry of the earth and providing for their other needs.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)I mean, sure he's been focusing on poverty and social justice, and that's welcomed.
The recent popes have tended to forget that part if their theology.
So it's not like he CHANGED the foundations of the church in doing that. Still, it's good to see. The church has plenty of influence around the world.
But I don't think we should be too surprised when this pope sounds like other popes on other topics.
I mean, he is the pope.
rug
(82,333 posts)I highlighted the offending paragraph for you, Sid.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2848/full_text_pope_francis_new_years_address_to_vatican_diplomats.aspx#.UtcoG02A05t
Your Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is now a long-established tradition that at the beginning of each new year the Pope meets the Diplomatic Corps accredited to the Holy See to offer his greetings and good wishes, and to share some reflections close to his heart as a pastor concerned for the joys and sufferings of humanity. Todays meeting, therefore, is a source of great joy. It allows me to extend to you and your families, and to the civil authorities and the peoples whom you represent, my heartfelt best wishes for a new year of blessings and peace. Before all else, I thank your Dean, Jean-Claude Michel, who has spoken in your name of the affection and esteem which binds your nations to the Apostolic See. I am happy to see you here in such great numbers, after having met you for the first time just a few days after my election. In the meantime, many new Ambassadors have taken up their duties and I welcome them once again. Among those who have left us, I cannot fail to mention the late Ambassador Alejandro Valladares Lanza, for many years the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps, whom the Lord called to himself several months ago.
The year just ended was particularly eventful, not only in the life of the Church but also in the context of the relations which the Holy See maintains with states and international organizations. I recall in particular the establishment of diplomatic relations with South Sudan, the signing of basic or specific accords with Cape Verde, Hungary, and Chad, and the ratification of the accord with Equatorial Guinea signed in 2012. On the regional level too, the presence of the Holy See has expanded, both in Central America, where it became an Extra-Regional Observer to the Sistema de la Integración Centroamericana, and in Africa, with its accreditation as the first Permanent Observer to the Economic Community of West African States. In my Message for the World Day of Peace, dedicated to fraternity as the foundation and pathway to peace, I observed that fraternity is generally first learned within the family
,(14) for the family by its vocation
is meant to spread its love to the world around it(15) and to contribute to the growth of that spirit of service and sharing which builds peace.(16) This is the message of the Crib, where we see the Holy Family, not alone and isolated from the world, but surrounded by shepherds and the Magi, that is by an open community in which there is room for everyone, poor and rich alike, those near and those afar. In this way we can appreciate the insistence of my beloved predecessor Benedict XVI that the language of the family is a language of peace.(17)
Sadly, this is often not the case, as the number of broken and troubled families is on the rise, not simply because of the weakening sense of belonging so typical of todays world, but also because of the adverse conditions in which many families are forced to live, even to the point where they lack basic means of subsistence. There is a need for suitable policies aimed at supporting, assisting, and strengthening the family! It also happens that the elderly are looked upon as a burden, while young people lack clear prospects for their lives. Yet the elderly and the young are the hope of humanity. The elderly bring with them wisdom born of experience; the young open us to the future and prevent us from becoming self-absorbed.(18) It is prudent to keep the elderly from being ostracized from the life of society, so as to preserve the living memory of each people. It is likewise important to invest in the young through suitable initiatives which can help them to find employment and establish homes. We must not stifle their enthusiasm! I vividly recall my experience at the Twenty-Eighth World Youth Day in Rio de Janeiro. I met so many happy young people! What great hope and expectation is present in their eyes and in their prayers! What a great thirst for life and a desire for openness to others! Being closed and isolated always makes for a stifling, heavy atmosphere which sooner or later ends up creating sadness and oppression. What is needed instead is a shared commitment to favouring a culture of encounter, for only those able to reach out to others are capable of bearing fruit, creating bonds of communion, radiating joy and being peacemakers.
The scenes of destruction and death which we have witnessed in the past year confirm all this if ever we needed such confirmation. How much pain and desperation are caused by self-centredness which gradually takes the form of envy, selfishness, competition and the thirst for power and money! At times it seems that these realities are destined to have the upper hand. Christmas, on the other hand, inspires in us Christians the certainty that the final, definitive word belongs to the Prince of Peace, who changes swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks (cf. Is 2:4), transforming selfishness into self-giving and revenge into forgiveness. It is with this confidence that I wish to look to the year ahead. I continue to be hopeful that the conflict in Syria will finally come to an end. Concern for that beloved people, and a desire to avert the worsening of violence, moved me last September to call for a day of fasting and prayer. Through you I heartily thank all those in your countries public authorities and people of good will who joined in this initiative. What is presently needed is a renewed political will to end the conflict. In this regard, I express my hope that the Geneva 2 Conference, to be held on 22 January, will mark the beginning of the desired peace process. At the same time, full respect for humanitarian law remains essential. It is unacceptable that unarmed civilians, especially children, become targets. I also encourage all parties to promote and ensure in every way possible the provision of urgently-needed aid to much of the population, without overlooking the praiseworthy effort of those countries especially Lebanon and Jordan which have generously welcomed to their territory numerous refugees from Syria.
Remaining in the Middle East, I note with concern the tensions affecting the region in various ways. I am particularly concerned by the ongoing political problems in Lebanon, where a climate of renewed cooperation between the different components of civil society and the political powers is essential for avoiding the further hostilities which would undermine the stability of the country. I think too of Egypt, with its need to regain social harmony, and Iraq, which struggles to attain the peace and stability for which it hopes. At the same time, I note with satisfaction the significant progress made in the dialogue between Iran and the Group of 5+1 on the nuclear issue. Everywhere, the way to resolve open questions must be that of diplomacy and dialogue. This is the royal road already indicated with utter clarity by Pope Benedict XV when he urged the leaders of the European nations to make the moral force of law prevail over the material force of arms in order to end that needless carnage(19) which was the First World War, whose centenary occurs this year. What is needed is courage to go beyond the surface of the conflict(20) and to consider others in their deepest dignity, so that unity will prevail over conflict and it will be possible to build communion amid disagreement.(2)1 In this regard, the resumption of peace talks between Israelis and Palestinians is a positive sign, and I express my hope that both parties will resolve, with the support of the international community, to take courageous decisions aimed at finding a just and lasting solution to a conflict which urgently needs to end. I myself intend to make a pilgrimage of peace to the Holy Land in the course of this year. The exodus of Christians from the Middle East and North Africa continues to be a source of concern. They want to continue to be a part of the social, political, and cultural life of countries which they helped to build, and they desire to contribute to the common good of societies where they wish to be fully accepted as agents of peace and reconciliation.
In other parts of Africa as well, Christians are called to give witness to Gods love and mercy. We must never cease to do good, even when it is difficult and demanding, and when we endure acts of intolerance if not genuine persecution. In vast areas of Nigeria violence persists, and much innocent blood continues to be spilt. I think above all of the Central African Republic, where much suffering has been caused as a result of the countrys tensions, which have frequently led to devastation and death. As I assure you of my prayers for the victims and the many refugees, forced to live in dire poverty, I express my hope that the concern of the international community will help to bring an end to violence, a return to the rule of law and guaranteed access to humanitarian aid, also in the remotest parts of the country. For her part, the Catholic Church will continue to assure her presence and cooperation, working generously to help people in every possible way and, above all, to rebuild a climate of reconciliation and of peace among all groups in society. Reconciliation and peace are likewise fundamental priorities in other parts of Africa. I think in particular of Mali, where we nonetheless note the promising restoration of the countrys democratic structures, and of South Sudan, where, on the contrary, political instability has lately led to many deaths and a new humanitarian crisis. The Holy See is also closely following events in Asia, where the Church desires to share the joys and hopes of all the peoples of that vast and noble continent. On this, the fiftieth anniversary of diplomatic relations with the Republic of Korea, I wish to implore from God the gift of reconciliation on the peninsula, and I trust that, for the good of all the Korean people, the interested parties will tirelessly seek out points of agreement and possible solutions. Asia, in fact, has a long history of peaceful coexistence between its different civil, ethnic and religious groups. Such reciprocal respect needs to be encouraged, especially given certain troubling signs that it is weakening, particularly where growing attitudes of prejudice, for allegedly religious reasons, are tending to deprive Christians of their liberties and to jeopardize civil coexistence. The Holy See looks, instead, with lively hope to the signs of openness coming from countries of great religious and cultural traditions, with whom it wishes to cooperate in the pursuit of the common good.
Still vivid in my memory is the brief visit I made to Lampedusa last July, to pray for the numerous victims of the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean. Sadly, there is a general indifference in the face of these tragedies, which is a dramatic sign of the loss of that sense of responsibility for our brothers and sisters,(22) on which every civil society is based. On that occasion I was also able to observe the hospitality and dedication shown by so many people. It is my hope that the Italian people, whom I regard with affection, not least for the common roots which unite us, will renew their praiseworthy commitment of solidarity towards the weakest and most vulnerable, and, with generous and coordinated efforts by citizens and institutions, overcome present difficulties and regain their long-standing climate of constructive social creativity. Finally, I wish to mention another threat to peace, which arises from the greedy exploitation of environmental resources. Even if nature is at our disposition,(23) all too often we do not respect it or consider it a gracious gift which we must care for and set at the service of our brothers and sisters, including future generations.(24) Here too what is crucial is responsibility on the part of all in pursuing, in a spirit of fraternity, policies respectful of this earth which is our common home. I recall a popular saying: God always forgives, we sometimes forgive, but when nature creation is mistreated, she never forgives! We have also witnessed the devastating effects of several recent natural disasters. In particular, I would mention once more the numerous victims and the great devastation caused in the Philippines and other countries of Southeast Asia as a result of typhoon Haiyan.
Your Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen, Pope Paul VI noted that peace is not simply the absence of warfare, based on a precarious balance of power; it is fashioned by efforts directed day after day towards the establishment of an order willed by God, with a more perfect justice among men and women.(25) This is the spirit which guides the Churchs activity throughout the world, carried out by priests, missionaries and lay faithful who with great dedication give freely of themselves, not least in a variety of educational, healthcare and social welfare institutions, in service to the poor, the sick, orphans and all those in need of help and comfort. On the basis of this loving attentiveness (26) the Church cooperates with all institutions concerned for the good of individuals and communities.
At the beginning of this new year, then, I assure you once more of the readiness of the Holy See, and of the Secretariat of State in particular, to cooperate with your countries in fostering those bonds of fraternity which are a reflection of Gods love and the basis of concord and peace. Upon you, your families and the peoples you represent, may the Lords blessings descend in abundance. Thank you.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
rug
(82,333 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
StarlightGold
(365 posts)whatever he wants.
When the smoke clears...the WOMAN has the final say. And THAT'S the real issue...people like him have NO control over that, and it drives them bat-shit.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)just to be clear.
Sid