"Funny" and "offensive" are orthogonal concepts, and people on both sides of the line don't get that

[Donald Ian Rankin]

Two arguments I see advanced far too often:

"I find this joke funny, therefor it is not offensive".
"I find this joke offensive, therefor it is not funny".

Neither "funny" not "offensive" is an objective property inherent in something. They're both just descriptors of responses things provoke: if other people are laughing at something then, *by definition*, it is funny, and if they're taking offense at it then, *by definition*, it is offensive.

Sensible arguments would go.

"I wish you would refrain from telling jokes like this, because even though other people find them funny, they offend me".
"I think it is reasonable to tell jokes like this because, even though some people find them offensive, others find them funny".

The moment that you claim that an offensive joke "isn't funny", you're putting yourself in the wrong; even presenting "I don't find this funny" as though it's a meaningful criticism of something lots of other people find funny is missing the point. Conversely, "this isn't offensive, some people just don't have the right senses of humour" is, again, ipse facto wrong: if people take offense at something that's what "offensive" means, and there's no moral obligation to find any particular sort of joke funny.

The first step to a meaningful and potentially fruitful argument about offensive humour is to recognise that "funny" and "offensive" are orthogonal axes, and that in both cases people saying "yes it is" trump those saying "no it isn't".

*Then* you can get on to arguing about whether it's worth making some people laugh is worth offending others, secure in the knowledge that you're not talking at cross purposes.


(Addendum: the only comedian I've ever found both genuinely funny and genuinely offensive to me was Benny Hill)

[Shrike47]

1. 'Your joke, while funny, is offensive.'

[Egalitarian Thug]

2. OTOH, some people are just assholes. n/t

[ananda]

3. That's true.

There are some jokes I find both funny and offensive.

[Niceguy1]

4. I think two

Things are important

Tailoring your humor to the environment...work, home or with the bros.

And just accepting the fact that humor is an individual thing. .and people have different tastes and just because you dont like it doesn't mean the people who do are horrible human beings.

[quinnox]

5. And some folk are just too uptight, who lack a sense of humor to begin with

and act as if everyone has to be just as humorless and self-righteous as they are, wagging a finger -

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. Conversely, some people don't care enough about upsetting others.

I'm trying not to take a specific stance on where the lines regarding things that some people find funny but offend others should be in this thread (I have views, but I think that airing them would be counterproductive).

[Heidi]

11. And very often, the "humor" says more about the person delivering it

than it says about the "butt" of the joke. In this thread, I'm waiting for the term "politically incorrect" to pop up. It almost always seems to appear as a defense for bigoted "humor."

Good morning, quinnox!

[quinnox]

13. Mornin'

When it comes to humor, as a post above said, its a very individual thing. And there is always going to be someone who objects or finds offensive even the most innocuous joke.

[ProfessorGAC]

6. Generally Agree

The only problem i have with your well reasoned post is this:

"even presenting "I don't find this funny" as though it's a meaningful criticism of something lots of other people find funny is missing the point"

With this i can't agree. Something that simply doesn't strike one as funny can elicit this statement and it's completely legitimate. I'd suggest that it's universal. There is some form of humor that just doesn't strike every single person as humorous.

So, although i agree with you in principle, i think you went too far with that statement. I think it is a meaningful criticism, and misses the point not at all.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

12. The problem is that it's used as a code-phrase.

If "I don't find this funny" were taken literally, it would be a very weak claim indeed. I don't find the Mona Lisa funny, but that doesn't mean I have anything against it.

But, far too often, when people say it they're using it as a code for "and I think that people who do are Wrong and Bad".

Because it's used that way so often, if you genuinely only mean "I don't find this funny", I think you need to explicitly clarify it as "I, personally, don't find this funny, but I can see that other people do". Otherwise, I think there's a significant risk that people will assume you're using it as a code, and with some justification.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. We Clearly Read That Statement Differently

I don't read as much into it as you do.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. They are not independent properties.

offensive and funny *might* be independent in some cases, but they are more frequently interdependent, "X is funny because it is offensive", for example.

[bemildred]

9. What does orthogonal mean? How many sides is an orthogon? nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. "Having to do with the testicles of a priest of the Greek or Russian Churches".

Which are often both funny and offensive, especially if visible at inopportune moments.

[Igel]

15. Orthogonal just means "at 90 degree angle".

Vectors in math can be orthogonal. At right angles. Unit vectors are by definition orthogonal to each other. Even if you have 10 of them (you get a 10-dimensional space).

Same for two lines in geometry. They can be orthogonal. We used to say "normal", as well. And in physics you still have a normal force and in geometric optics a line that is called the "normal" (both of which are at right angles to the surface).

There's also "perpendicular." But most often I find myself saying "at right angles" because even after taking geometry a lot of people don't know what "perpendicular" means.

Ortho- right.
I assume -gon has to do with 'angle'.

[Igel]

16. I'd say the "I don't find that funny" is a matter of emphasis. No more.

And the emphasis varies by context. In some contexts, and with the right intonation, it's contrastive--saying that the speaker doesn't find it funny while others do. In other cases it's merely factual, without implying any kind of focus.

Note that the way you talk about this has to be more more precise than you allow for. "Funniness", like offense, isn't intrinsic. There's nothing intrinsic about words that make them offensive; we're conditioned to react to certain words, we're vigilant or hypervigilant in attributing a specific meaning to the speaker, but there's no need for the speaker to share our conditioning.

However, using "it is funny" attributes "funny" to the thing itself, while leaving out the person doing the attributing. Just as "it is 70 degrees in this room" does. It lends it the air of intrinsicness. It's a way of shutting off debate: objecting to "it's funny" is harder than objecting to "I find this funny." One can be denied without being anomalous: "I find this funny but you don't" is utterly reasonable. "It's funny but it isn't funny" is either nonsense or, if we want to insist on coherence has to have some other meaning read into it (perhaps "I find this funny but I know others don't" or "I find this funny but know others will judge me for it&quot .

The imposition of your views on others is more evident with "it's offensive." When the person offended gets to define the intrinsic nature of the term, language has been subverted and is being used as an instrument of social oppression. This is most often done by those who object to language being used to oppress, at least when others do so.

"I find this funny" is neutral, if said in a non-contrastive tone. Just as "I find this offensive" should be--but is less neutral because of the demands of courtsey.

Note that there are different kinds of "offense." Somebody that gets offended at the use of the word "fuck" will still laugh. You can quote obscene language without the taint of the language rubbing off on it. It's second-hand speech and even in "good" settings it can be uttered by just about anybody. Racial and increasingly gender epithets cannot be quoted. If you quote the word it's pretty much as bad in most cases as hurling the epithet yourself. Context doesn't matter--the only thing that matters is the acceptability of the person using the word. If you're the right person--maybe the right ethnicity, maybe your non-racist/non-"genderist" bona fides are well established--then it's okay. It's not language that's offensive; it's attitude. In general, there's no way to use racial epithets that way that is both offensive and humorous, just as sarcasm is lost on the sarcasm's target.