Though it's scary to agree with this Pope so often...this one isn't his quote...

[Triana]

Last edited Mon Jan 20, 2014, 11:31 AM - Edit history (2)

EDIT: Since I posted this (came from Twitter), DUers have discovered that this quote actually came from an Oberlin College Newspaper, NOT the Pope. Though this Pope has made many statements about inequality, labor and poverty that I agree with (and that does scare me since I'm not religious or Catholic), he evidently did NOT make this quote.

See this link: http://www.oberlinreview.org/article/increased-interest-labor-politics-necessary/ and this link: http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/11/pope-francis-capitalism-statement

[freshwest]

1. WTG, Francis! And so very true... n/t

[Ohio Joe]

2. The daily pope talk thread

If only he would do something besides talk.

[Luminous Animal]

6. If only his audience would do something (besides demeaning women) besides listen.

[Egalitarian Thug]

60. +1

I'm still waiting for some reason to respect this one.

So far, all I see a much more smooth talking shepherd and the same nodding flock being herded into the same chute.

All sheep share a common destiny.

[efhmc]

107. Talk is cheap and without meaning if there is no action. Just the idea that

the RCC see women as nothing except underpinning to men and/or producers of more men makes me unable to see anything positive about it or its leader.

[delrem]

10. You don't think talk supporting trade unions is needed?

You don't think explaining the *necessity* of trade unions, aiming to turn the current almost totally anti-union messaging around, is necessary before successful action? You don't think making such explanations be *heard* is extremely difficult in the current political/economic climate? Do you think the *Pope* of all people ought to be responsible for a renaissance of the trade union movement in NA, and for initiating a trade union movement in countries like China where the idea is even closer to non-existent?

Do you ever wonder why notions like "Free Trade" are so successful, when notions like "Fair Trade" are close to non-existent? Do you think that notions like "Fair Trade" and a Trade Union movement can possibly be actualized without mass support, which depends on mass understanding the issues?

[Ohio Joe]

18. I think listening to the pope is like listening to the pauls...

They say shit for their own ends... They say crap that sounds good but their actions or in-actions say a whole other story.

[Drahthaardogs]

68. he just fired the whole Vatican Bank

Has removed a priest in germany who squandered millions. He has done a lot more in 8 short months.

[Ohio Joe]

72. oh... He is working hard to protect the vaticans money... How nice...

Women? LGBT? Pedophile priests?

Not so much there, huh?

[Drahthaardogs]

77. Silly, you really think he CAN change the Magisterium don't you?

You have no IDEA what you are talking about. You think the pope speaks ex-cathedra 24/7. You proclaim he can change Sacred Doctrine. You do not understand the Catholic Church and are too intellectually lazy to actually go out and learn what the Pope can and cannot do. Instead you rail at him for things not in his control. It is like yelling at Obama for not passing a budget.'

[Ohio Joe]

80. Strawman much?

" You think the pope speaks ex-cathedra 24/7. You proclaim he can change Sacred Doctrine"

Non-sense, I never said any such thing but... Hey, go ahead and build up your strawman, they are easy to knock down.

"Instead you rail at him for things not in his control."

He could not have appointed a woman a cardinal?
He can't hand over pedophile priests and all the church knows about them instead of continuing the practice of protecting them?
He can't interprate doctrine to allow the LGBT community to not be considered evil?

[Drahthaardogs]

83. That is EXACTLY what you said, No Strawman here

except yours (which you are too ignorant of the church to even know are wrong). Your contention was that since the Pope is infallible, he can change whatever he wants whenever he wants, especially (per you), Sacred Doctrine and Tradition ..i.e., the Magisterium.

In fact, here are your words (which are completely made up nonsense) below:

" Popes don't write the laws" ... heh, that is silly. The pope is not the unquestioned leader of his church? He is not infallible in matters of doctrine?"


You are wrong, have been wrong, and are trying desperately to deflect, re-direct, and re-write. Sorry the black and white shows your ignorance on this subject. You give cite an article that describes the Church's infallibility, instead of ex-cathedra, which is the proper term for Papal infallibility. The think the Pope can change the Magisterium at will.

We are done. You want me to defend a Catholic position that does not exist. You want to blame a Pope for not doing that which he does not have the power to do. I refuse to tilt-windmills sir. You state that he believes gays are evil. These are NOT Church positions and I am not entertaining your silliness any longer. If you actually educate yourself and want to have an intelligent conversation about the ills of the Church and what could be done to promote change, look me up. If you want to sit here and argue your own lies and misconceptions, find someone else.

[Ohio Joe]

87. So you will stick with putting words in my mouth and claim the pope is helpless

Poor pope, almost makes one feel sorry for him

[Drahthaardogs]

94. No, I will stick with direct quoting your words

to expose your lack of knowledge on the subject.

[Ohio Joe]

95. repeating what is not true does not make it so...

Where did I say any of this:

"You think the pope speaks ex-cathedra 24/7"

oh... Never.

"You proclaim he can change Sacred Doctrine"

oh... Never.

Don't let reality stop you though, keep on protecting the pope just like he protects pedophile priests.

[pangaia]

84. How can he appoint a woman cardinal?

[Ohio Joe]

89. By the same method he appoints a man

There is nothing that says a woman cannot be a cardinal.... they just never do it.

[Drahthaardogs]

111. Paragraph 1577 of the Catechismn states

1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination." The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.


Can we all please agree you have no idea what you are talking about now please?

[Ohio Joe]

112. If being a cardinal was the same as being ordained, you might have something... But you don't

http://www.uscatholic.org/blog/201305/could-pope-francis-appoint-women-cardinals-27291

It seems people who actually know things, unlike you who just blindly follows, say a woman can be a cardinal... At least theoretically... We all know the church will never allow women to be equal to men.

[Drahthaardogs]

124. Wrong again! So-called "Lay Cardinals" were abolished by Canon Law 351 around 1920

Which require orders.

Keep googling shit though. At least you are learning.

[Ohio Joe]

132. yes... The experts are lying...

And a random pope supporter is right

[Scootaloo]

134. So just out of curiosity, who would you see appointed?

Surely someone so interested has a list of candidates.

[Ohio Joe]

142. Who would I pick?

Nobody... I'd send everyone home and tell them to stop believing in fairy tales and start thinking for themselves.

[Scootaloo]

155. So you don't actually care who is and is not a cardinal?

[Ohio Joe]

158. oh... I care very much

Homophobes, misogynists and pedophiles are definitely off the list of people who should be.

[Scootaloo]

159. You'll have to excuse my puzzlement

You just said that you have no recommendations for such a position and instead would recommend they all go home and stop playing pretend with fairy tales. Fair enough. I take that this means you regard the whole affair as being of pretty great unimportance.

Yet here you are, arguing constantly - apparently ignorantly as well though I confess, I'm not at all brushed up on Catholic doctrine myself - as if having a woman cardinal were of supreme, paramount importance of the highest order to you.

it's just a little strange. You're so adamant about it, then you don't care, then you're adamant again.

[Ohio Joe]

160. Let me try to explain...

"You just said that you have no recommendations for such a position and instead would recommend they all go home and stop playing pretend with fairy tales. Fair enough. I take that this means you regard the whole affair as being of pretty great unimportance."

I am an atheist. I regard religion as a waste of personal time and pox on society. That said, I don't deny that millions will follow anything said by the pope no matter how stupid. So as it will cause people to think and act, it does matter.

"Yet here you are, arguing constantly - apparently ignorantly as well though I confess, I'm not at all brushed up on Catholic doctrine myself"

Ignorant? I give a cite for everything I've claimed, I don't see that from the other side... In fact, I don't see anything being cited.

"as if having a woman cardinal were of supreme, paramount importance of the highest order to you."

Supreme importance... No. It would have been an action that would have shown this pope to be serious about bringing the church out of it's misogynistic ways instead of just more talk.

Every day we get the pope of the day thread that tries to justify why this guy is suddenly making the church a liberal organization that we should all be celebrating. The pope and his church are misogynistic, homophobic and continue to protect pedophile from prosecution. I see no reason they should get any good words from any liberals.

[Scootaloo]

163. I think you're misconstruing rhe intent of these threads

it's not that Frankie is making the church a liberal organization. it's that he's making it a more liberal organization. That is news, and it is worthy of at least some gof-clapping. Especially when one takes a look through the chiurch's history. This guy's maybe not up to snuff to run the socialist party in Sweden or anything, but for a Pope, he's pretty radical in how he's going about all of this.

of course he's still got his boneheads positions. But he's being significantly less so than his predecessors, and is dragging the rest of the church along with him.

Think of it this way. You support the president, right? Ypu're a Democrat? Well, he didn't "evolve" his stance on gay rights until shortly prior to election season. He thinks having the NSA riffle through your computer is necessary for state security, and that yet more free trade agreements with a slave-holding nation across the pacific is in the interest of Americans - do I need to mention the weddings blown up by hte flying murder-bots?

I see the president not as a pinnacle of liberal thought and achievement - he's not. I regard him as a solid step in the right direction. I regard Pope Frankie in much the same way - I'm not expecting miracles (hah, hah, hah) but any positive movement is STILL positive movement.

I'm an atheist - though I see religion less of a "pox," and more of a magnificent waste of human energy and thought. And frankly I could care less what goes on under those magical hats priest-types wear. But hey, i'm still willing to extend credit for effort.

I don't think that appointing a woman cardina,, simply o point at her and say "HAY YALL LOOKEE A FEMALE CARDINAL!" would actually do any good, change anything, or even demonstrate something. It'd just be tokenism. Now, female priests, there's something worth looking for.

[Ohio Joe]

166. To a certain degree, I get that...

Then I think... There are other right wing people, and I believe his positions overall make him pretty right wing, who hold a few positions that would be agreed with here yet posts praising them every day would not be acceptable. Can you imagine how long someone would last if they posted a 'Paul post of the day'?

I understand that believers are going to be allowed here (hell, we have at least one 'pro-life' poster I've seen) and it appears that anything pope related is allowed in GD... I see no reason his shitty positions should not be pointed out as long as there is going to be a 'pope thread of the day' that is trying to portray him as someone to be supported... And if these posts were to just point out the church is getting better, they would not be here every day, and people would not make excuses for the offensive positions.

[Drahthaardogs]

140. Canon Law 351 for your reading enlightment

Can. 351 §1 Those to be promoted Cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of priesthood and are truly outstanding in doctrine, virtue, piety and prudence in practical matters; those who are not already Bishops must receive episcopal consecration.

[Ohio Joe]

141. The pope can't change canon law?

Funny... I thought he could...

Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Do you realize what you are protecting when you spew such non-sense?

[Drahthaardogs]

151. Not as it pertains to the Magesterium.

Only smsll procederal changes are allowed. Hence your previous argument.

[Ohio Joe]

153. Strange... That is not what it says... I cited it

Can you cite?

[Drahthaardogs]

161. You missed the word "ordinary power"...

The Magesterium is termed “SOLEMN” or “EXTRAORDINARY".

This is why arguing with you is a waste of time. You do not know or understand what you are talking about.

[Ohio Joe]

162. So you can't give a cite...

I'm shocked

[Drahthaardogs]

164. Why? I give you Canon law and you say it is not true. It is hilarious.

You want a cite on the infallibility of the Magesterium? Really?

Enjoy.
Canon 750
1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.
2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church



I guess you never heard of Catholic Councils huh?

[Ohio Joe]

165. No silly...

Where is the part that says 'only men can be cardinals' can't be changed by the pope? Having trouble finding that?

Tell me... Why did the Vatican's chief spokesman say a woman cardinal was "Theologically and theoretically, it is possible"?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/vatican-dismisses-reports-of-women-cardinals-1.1582486

Is he just stupid?

[Drahthaardogs]

167. Okay, two things going on here.

First, understand what the Magesterium is. That is sacred tradition and sacred law. There ARE some Canon laws that a Pope could change, but not all. Those pertaining to the Magesterium, he cannot.

Anyway, two things going on here

Could the current Canon law requiring cardinals be ordained priests ignored or changed by the Pope? Yes, probably so, especially since there is historical precedent of them NOT all being ordained. Although uncommon, it is was not unheard.

However, the second point, could a woman be a Cardinal? Probably not as this is most likely Sacred Tradition. See below:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that only men can receive holy orders because Jesus chose men as his apostles and the "apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry." Blessed John Paul II wrote in 1994 that this teaching is definitive and not open to debate among Catholics.

So, we know at least priests being male IS considered Sacred Tradition, thus of the Magesterium, thus No, the Pope could NOT ordain a woman a priest, even if he wanted to. This is why the meme repeated over and over here about Francis NOT ordaining women is a mute point. He CANNOT do it. He lacks the authority.

Now, could he make a woman a Cardinal? Maybe. But that is open for at least some argument, and before it could happen, Canon Law 351 would have to be changed THEN Pope Francis would have to break with tradition AND it would have to be ruled that male Cardinals are NOT sacred tradition.

Does that makes sense? That is why I keep saying if you do not understand the terms it is hard to fully understand what is going on.

Just like the use of the word "ordinary". Ordinary has real significant meaning in Catholicism. Ordinary Time vs. Advent or Easter, etc.

[Beartracks]

135. This. +1 n/t

[anti partisan]

16. Talk is kinda what a Pope does

Popes don't write the laws.

[Ohio Joe]

21. " Popes don't write the laws" ... heh, that is silly

The pope is not the unquestioned leader of his church? He is not infallible in matters of doctrine?

[anti partisan]

25. On issues like labor and trade, the Catholic Church can only do so much

I'm not even a Catholic, but this is undeniable.

[Ohio Joe]

71. It is not his stance on labor or trade I have an issue with

He should clean his own house as well though... Perhaps stop hiding pedophile priests? Maybe stop treating women as second class citizens? Dare I say... Stop condemning the LGBT community as evil?

[Drahthaardogs]

69. no and no

You talk nonsense. Read a little and learn what ex cathedra means.

[Ohio Joe]

70. Of course it is correct... Excuses can't work

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

[Drahthaardogs]

74. You do not even know what ex-cathedra means

So quit throwing the "infallible" line around. In the entire existence of Popes there have been TWO, yes TWO instances of a pope speaking ex-cathedra. Both were based on Doctrine.


Thanks for playing though.

[Ohio Joe]

76. So your contention is that because it is rare, he cannot do it?

Fascinating.

[Drahthaardogs]

79. No, my contention is

you have no freakingidea what you are talking about, but that does not seem to stop you from posting about a subject you know little to nothing about.

[Ohio Joe]

81. Non-sense

You just keep making up what you think I'm saying so you can claim it's not true.... Talk about no freaking idea.

[TxDemChem]

28. I agree. I like his attitude, but is also like to see

some action to follow his words. He is personable though.

[imthevicar]

121. One Step At a Time.

He Just cleaned out the Vatican Bank BOD.

[AleksS]

3. It's interesting to see that in so many places outside the USA

It's interesting to see that in so many places outside the USA, Unions and the Catholic Church are hand-in-hand. (To be fair it may not be everywhere else, just the places I'm familiar with.)

We were visiting Poland a few years ago, and there was a HUGE Union rally on the steps of the monastary that houses the Black Madonna of Czestochowa.

Solidarity signs flew right alongside religious banners and icons.

It was interesting to see how political lines and alliances are drawn differently in countries where the church lumped its anti-gay/anti-abortion message with its help-the-poor message, contrasted with the US where it lumped its anti-gay/anti-abortion with pro-capitalism/pro-corporation politics. I wonder if it's a Protestant country vs. Catholic country issue. Does anyone know how political alliances fall in European protestant countries?

[Beartracks]

33. Sorry, can't answer your question. But just have another thought...

... The pro-union stance fits nicely with the Catholic church's teachings on social justice. It is strange how here in the US the focus has drifted so much onto, ahem, other issues, that much of the social justice aspects of the faith are ignored by the MSM and Catholic opinion leaders (as opposed to rank-and-file Catholics).

==============

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

128. Which is why I am so encouraged to have a Pope who is pointing out the error of those ways.

I was raised Catholic, but do not subscribe. However, when I need to attend a Catholic service to avoid disappointing my father, I find it quite a bit less objectionable now due to the new Pope speaking out in support of some social and economic justice.

[OldEurope]

106. There are huge differences in European countries.

In Poland the unions and the church fought together against the soviet regime, and the ties got even closer when John Paul II came.

Here in Germany there is a completely different situation. The big churches (both Roman Catholic and Lutherans) make a claim that the usual worker rights (they are strong here in comparison to the US) do not apply to the employees of the churches. E.g. the Catholic Kindergarden can fire a nurse for getting divorced and having a civil marriage after that. Or for beeing a lesbian. No other employer could do this without a huge outcry, but the churches got even confirmation from the highest courts. Also, the churches often refused to pay the wages the unions negotiated for other than church-owned institutions. So the unions in Germany really do not at all like the churches.
In France and Italy it was always a conservatives against socialists (communists) thing, as far as I can say. However, in Italy I always felt that people could be both: socialist and Catholic. But I may be wrong.

[stg81]

4. "Unions are the bulwark against economic and political totalitarianism."

-J. Paul Getty, How to be Rich

[Luminous Animal]

5. On the other hand, women should sit in the back of the bus.

I could never raise my daughter with a philosophy that denies her own agency. I could never raise her to respect it.

Similar to Rand Paul and his defense of the 4th Amendment... Okay, that is cool but I won't support him or respect him the political institution that he represents.

[delrem]

13. No they shouldn't. And that is another issue. nt

[Luminous Animal]

14. Of course. Sit in the back of the bus.

[delrem]

17. I said "no, they shouldn't". Why do you falsify???

[Luminous Animal]

19. It is always "another issue" when it comes to women's rights.

If the institution of the Catholic Church discriminated against African Americans... barred them from being priests... there is not one person on this board that would say, "That is another issue." Not one.

[delrem]

22. I will not discuss issues with someone who reads "no" and quotes it as "yes".

Such a person crossed a blatantly obvious line.

Bye.

[Luminous Animal]

23. "And that is another issue". As if you didn't write that.

"And that is another issue."


DISMISSED!

[delrem]

24. It was you who willfully lied about what I said. DISMISSED! nt

[Luminous Animal]

26. So. What are your opinions about the Catholic Church and women?

[delrem]

30. I said DISMISSED. nt

[Luminous Animal]

39. Indeed!

[Demo_Chris]

31. One might hope, but I suspect you are wrong...

Many here would be perfectly fine with it. They would excuse it in a second. They have no real problem with the Church's positions on women and gays, and they don't really care that the Church unleashed ten thousand plus child rapists onto American children or that they continue to shelter and defend these monsters. The Roman Catholics could force blacks to sit in the back of the church and people here would say "Oh that's wrong, but..." and they'd be off to the races talking about this charismatic Pope's latest speech.

[Live and Learn]

37. Enough of the hyperbole. Many here? Seriously?

I sure haven't seen that here. In fact, I am certain that the majority 'here' would support complete equal rights for all.

What many don't like is the attempt to hijack threads by bringing up issues that have very little or nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[840high]

137. +10

[TekGryphon]

41. You're full of it.

If you think "many here" are perfectly fine with the Church's position on women and gays, specifically in relation to historic misogyny and homophobia, then start naming names and showing quotes so the mods can deal with it.

[TekGryphon]

43. Stop shitting on the poor with your elitism.

Thanks.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Stop shitting on poor women who have slim to little access to reproductive autonomy due to the

Catholic Church and other fundies.

[TekGryphon]

51. This thread is about unions and their benefit to the poor working class.

Your desire to shit on the poor because the Pope didn't give you a pony is admirable, but would be better suited in another thread.

I asked you to name me ONE leader of any organization or country who is 100% perfect on every progressive issue.

Until you can provide us with a name, I'm going to continue calling you out for your anti-poor, anti-union disruption.

[Live and Learn]

57. +1 nt

[A Simple Game]

88. You forgot anti-Catholic.

It seems obvious to me and I'm an ex-Catholic and agnostic.

Seems many don't realize the majority of poor are women and children and this pope is actually trying to help the poor. What, if anything, are the anti-pope posters doing to help the poor?

Only a fool would think you can turn around an institution the size of the Catholic church in a year.

This pope is moving in the right direction on many issues, he needs to be applauded.

[totodeinhere]

102. Taking a strong stand against the church's ant-gay and ant-abortion policies

doesn't have to be "anti-poor, anti-union disruption." After all many of the victims of the church's regressive social policies are themselves poor. It is very possible to be anti-bigotry and for the rights of the poor at the same time.

[Doctor_J]

7. How long until a Limbecile takes a shot at the Pope?

definitely a breath of fresh air

[Thinkingabout]

8. Working for unions is not an easy job, it is a forever fight, to give of time and effort

And I worked in a very established union of which the earlier members had completed the hard tasks.
We worked for job security but it was lost later. We worked to get better wages, health insurance and working conditions. You have to be dedicated, ready to vote for the people who are going to vote for your values and not for a single issue and to hell with the rest. We had Democrats in Congress and state houses and we reminded them we counted on their help.

[pa28]

9. Never thought I would see the day when I would cheer for a pope.

Life is full of surprises.

[defacto7]

12. Hell, my dad used to say that.

Is this supposed to be original? I know the discussion is usually about comparing former popes to the new pope but this is not new information. Why is it supposed to sound so revolutionary? Well, I suppose it is revolutionary considering what the Vatican has promoted for so long, but it's nothing new for most of us; it's actually pretty basic.

[W T F]

15. I've never been a big fan of organized religion, but I gotta say that I love this Pope.

He brings the "Christ" back into Christianity.

[840high]

138. This Pope gives me great hope.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Unions are equal to management under the law....

Unlike non-union where the the relationship can range from living under a tyrant to total ownership where they can dictate how you live outside of work and can fire you on a whim.

[sabrina 1]

27. Good for him. I hope all those Republican Catholics here who are so anti-Union are

listening. NOW they have to contend with people like me asking them WHY are you going against your faith and your Church? In the past, they never had to worry about that. THIS pope is slamming them on almost all their favorite issues.

[elzenmahn]

29. As a South American native...

...he's seen the Friedmanist experiment with his own eyes and through the eyes of his fellow Catholics on that continent. He's seen the suffering, the depravity, and the end-game of this line of economic "thought".

He knows of what he speaks. And I applaud him for speaking out on this issue.

[Vashta Nerada]

32. Yeah, what did he say about abortion last week?

[rpannier]

34. And that has what to do with this issue?

The issue is economic justice and pro-union.

I don't understand people who won't take advantage of the support we're getting from the man with the largest megaphone on this planet when he is taking our side.
The all or nothing approach is baffling.
Like any other human being on the planet, support him/her/them when you agree and disagree when they're wrong.

[Vashta Nerada]

38. It's all talk.

He's playing every one of you.

[rpannier]

50. Ahhh... the person with the crystal ball

Please give us the lotto winners since you know so much

[Vashta Nerada]

53. Yeah, it's going to take more than a cute little internet quote for me to like pope frank.

Just last week, he said:

Pope Francis has issued his strongest condemnation yet of abortion, calling it a "horrific" symptom of a "throwaway culture" that placed too little value on human life.

"It is horrific even to think that there are children, victims of abortion, who will never see the light of day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25723422

[840high]

139. Frankly, I don't care if you

like him or not.

[Vashta Nerada]

143. Good for you.

This exchange has nothing to do with you.

[Luminous Animal]

40. Um.... because the powerful institution that he represents fucks over half the population?

Crazy that that matters.

[TekGryphon]

46. Point to one leader who is 100% perfect on every progressive issue, please.

We'll all wait while you do so, but please do so and stop shitting on the poor with your anti-union disruption in this thread.

[Luminous Animal]

52. He's so dreamy! So what if he heads a powerful institution that denies women their own agency.

As have all social justice movements.

All of them.

[TekGryphon]

55. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry Pope Francis didn't give you a pony.

If it makes you feel better I could assure you that there's several women's rights advocates I'm irritated with because they don't support green energy as aggressively as they should.

Oh wait, that would be a lie. I don't get irritated by that, because I'm not a lunatic zealot who hates all progress except for that on my most important issue.

[Niceguy1]

62. [phone]

Sanest post on this thread

[skepticscott]

110. It's one thing to not be an active champion of EVERY issue

that is important to progressives. No one could manage that. It is quite another to actively fight against those principals, and to hold ANTI-progressive ideals as sacred doctrine. That's what this pope and the RCC do in the case of women's equality, abortion, contraception and same-sex marriage (among others).

Do you get the difference? And do you get that equality for all is not a "pony"?

[TekGryphon]

115. No, I don't get it.

This Pope has been FAR more progressive on the equality of both women and gays. His first action as Pope was to wash the feet of women, something that's never been done before. He's then argued strongly for allowing women into the church to break up the male dominated culture.

When you degenerate the actions this Pope because he's not fixing all the world's problems overnight it makes you look like a brat demanding a pony at best, and a blind zealot at worst.

[theHandpuppet]

122. "This Pope has been FAR more progressive on the equality of both women and gays"

Prove it.

[TekGryphon]

126. Sure.

http://bit.ly/1e8iTVm

And another one you might find useful:

http://bit.ly/1e8iXVf

[theHandpuppet]

133. Just in case anyone is tempted to click on the second link

This is the message you will receive: "How to use Google and not make yourself look like an idiot"

IOW, you ain't got squat. Later!

[PeaceNikki]

136. diddly squat, to be precise.

unreal.

[TekGryphon]

145. Hardly diddly squat.

But speaking of diddly squat, I'm curious what YOU'VE done in your life to advance gay rights.

Since attempting to steer the world's largest organization towards one that respects homosexuals and stops persecuting them with unjust laws isn't enough for you - you must have done a lot.

Care to share with us?

Or are you just another pathetic zealot, angry over the Pope because he'll do more good for gay rights around the world in one speech than you could ever dream of doing in a hundred lifetimes.

[PeaceNikki]

146. Sure. Post your full name and mailing address then hold your breath while I mail you my resume.

[TekGryphon]

147. In other words...

"diddly squat, to be precise."

Sorry, PeaceNikki. The reality is you're not just useless to the gay rights, women's rights, and unionization movements - you're a liability.

By shitting on anyone and everyone in a position of power who works towards promoting progress within and around their respective organizations - you hurt the progressive movement.

We would be far better off without zealots like you.

[PeaceNikki]

149. You really need to back the fuck off, chief.

[theHandpuppet]

152. You still haven't answered even the first question.

That progress on gay and women's rights that you claim. Prove it. Stop dancing around the issues. Show us your proof. Then we'll really have something to debate. And if I were you, your proof had better be darn good because I can more than match you. Bet on it.

That you should question anyone's qualifications as a progressive is beyond irony.

[skepticscott]

123. Good grief, you really don't get it, do you?

Washing a woman's feet makes him a champion of total equality for women in the Catholic Church? Seriously? Please tell us you're not serious. And wow…he wants to allow women into the church? Astounding. Ground-breaking. Monumental.

And did you read a word I said. Not FIXING problems is a totally different thing from fighting AGAINST the problems being fixed. Everyone else got that…why didn't you?

And just so we're clear, a "pony" is something wildly extravagant, that you have no real right to expect. If you're putting equality for gays and women in that category, WTF are you doing on a progressive website?

[TekGryphon]

125. I'm sorry.

I truly am that you didn't get your pony. This Pope has done MORE for women's equality than any other Pope and put him further towards equality than any conservative leader you'd care to name.

Does that make him "perfect"? No. Does that make him a "champion of total equality for women in the Catholic Church"? No. Does that mean he's going to give you a fucking pony? NO.

It means he's a HUGE improvement over the last Pope and any other Pope he had and, as such, we should be celebrating the progress that the church is making, not attacking him every chance we get and making ourselves out to be zealots who oppose any progress unless its perfect progress.

[skepticscott]

127. What progress?

Give us a list of the substantial changes in church doctrine, practice or policy that have taken place under this pope. Warm-fuzzy talk and staged photo ops for PR purposes are not "progress", they're just manipulation of the gullible.

Show us REAL progress. Now.

[TekGryphon]

130. First show me what you've done.

I can provide link after link to Pope Francis's statements on women's equality that go a long way towards heightening the public's awareness on the issue and changing perceptions, but that's not good enough for you. You demand revolution.

But first...

Show me some accomplishments you've made on women's equality beyond talking.

[skepticscott]

131. And so begins the dodging and backpedaling..what a shock

You claimed: we should be celebrating the progress that the church is making. I call bullshit. Back up your claim and show us that there has been real progress. Talk is not progress, not when the church still has the same bigoted, sexist, homophobic policies as before. The world doesn't need a lecture from the RCC about gay and women's rights.

Don't try to weasel your way out by trying to make this thread about me. It's not. No bogus claims have been made about me that need substantiating. It's the pope and his wonderful "progress" that are being touted here.

Prove it. Further attempts to make this about me will be taken as an acknowledgement that you don't have squat.

Tick tock.

[skepticscott]

156. I think we can consider it settled

that you don't have one fucking shred of evidence to back up your horseshit claim.

And I will continue to remind people of what a bigoted, sexist, homophobe this pope is. Cope.

[theHandpuppet]

150. You ought to get out more

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/latest-pope-francis-women

[PeaceNikki]

129. thank you

Amen

[randome]

86. I'd be willing to bet you have previously said you agree with some things Rand Paul says.

Why not give credit where credit is due to the Pope, as well? Neither is perfect.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[rpannier]

48. ummmm

much of the world actually cares what he says and listens
that's what matters

[NYC Liberal]

92. You apparently think women's rights aren't tied to economic justice.

They are. VERY much so. And Francis opposes women's rights.

[TekGryphon]

45. Go make a thread shitting on the poor.

If you hate unions so much that you'd shit up a thread about the leader of the world's largest organization coming out in unabashed support of it - then go make a thread about it.

Until then, stop shitting on the poor in this thread.

[Vashta Nerada]

54. Nice strawman there.

I don't do strawmen.

[Live and Learn]

58. Sure you do. You did it above. nt

[woo me with science]

35. Excellent. It's funny how all the persistent defenders of corporate predatory policy

Last edited Mon Jan 20, 2014, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

are trying very hard to pretend that they wouldn't have attacked this message no matter whom it came from.

The Pope has a tremendous bully pulpit, and this message desperately needs to be heard.

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. knr

[Phlem]

42. He's just a man and as with all humans,

he has faults. I don't agree with every thing he stands for but still, he's bringing something to the fore that affects a lot of people around the globe, something that has run amuk and is headed towards a cliff dragging all of us along with it.

I can't stand against better lives for over all.

I think he can be swayed to be OK with LGBT issues as well.

But right now, I mean right fucking now, we're on our way to a global 3rd world. Try getting some political face time then.



-p

[Cha]

47. Wow! Now we have to advise

The Pope to Be Safe! Amazing.. thanks Triana~

[Humanist_Activist]

56. Seems like this quote isn't from him but Oberlin, a college newspaper, I think...

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/11/pope-francis-capitalism-statement

[theHandpuppet]

64. Good catch

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a correction to the OP, however.

[Triana]

90. It's been corrected.

I had gone to bed. Woke up and saw this and changed the OP.

Unlike Republicans, I'm not interested in misleading people with fallacy.

The graphic was on my twitter feed. The Pope being very against income inequality and supportive of the poor, labor, unions, it seemed apt that he might say something like this. Further investigation reveals he did not make this particular quote. I'm happy to have that additional info and it shows how UNgullible DUer's are. Too bad more of the voting public isn't so attentive.

I've also shared the Oberlin vs Pope quotes article with the person who tweeted the image on my timeline.

So there. This is DU. Not the RNC. Thus, if I post something that is incorrect, I have no problem correcting it. Or, deleting it.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Falsehoods and exaggerations are the meat of too many of the Pope posts

His anti choice, anti gay words are real, folks like to pretend he did not say them and instead said all manner of things he has not said.
I understand you did this in error, but error seems to define the Francis promotions and it gets old, tired and hurtful because he is anti gay and against contraception and I for one am not in support of those, his actual words and actual deeds.

[theHandpuppet]

108. Thanks.

The correction was appreciated.

[Egalitarian Thug]

59. Is it the fundamental delusion that causes all of you to ignore the fact that he

hasn't actually done anything? He talks, that's it. He is not a President or a Prime Minister, he's the motherfucking Pope!

Of all the powerful people in the world, only he and the handful of remaining literal monarchs have the power to make it happen by merely directing to be.

There is no Catholic Congress with the power to override. There are no 'V' Street lobby firms in Vatican City.

[eShirl]

61. Pope, Pope! Rah, rah, rah!

Francis, Francis, zip boom bah!

[BelgianMadCow]

63. Truth is truth no matter who carries it

why couldn't the church wake up too?

[Enthusiast]

65. It's a fact. K&R.

[TBF]

66. "A decent and humane society is impossible under capitalism" -

he got that part correct at least.

[Kingofalldems]

67. Great stuff.

[Recursion]

73. Malachy said this is the last Pope

At this rate, I don't doubt it :/

[theHandpuppet]

75. The quote in the OP is from the Oberlin College student newspaper

http://www.oberlinreview.org/article/increased-interest-labor-politics-necessary/

I agree with the author but just thought it should be attributed to the proper source... of course, unless the Oberlin paper is guilty of plagiarism.

Edited to add: Date on the Oberlin article was October of 2010.

[DetlefK]

78. Remember how John Paul II was credited with reviving the Catholic Church?

He started initiatives to carry the sermon to the youth, like international church-days for teenagers.

I have a feeling that Pope Francis will be remembered as one of the more influential popes as well, given that he switched the Catholic Church's approach from dogma to spirit.

If this pope lives long enough, we might even see the groundwork for a modernization of the Catholic Church being laid.

[shenmue]

82. Good for him

It's true.

[jsr]

85. A true statement, regardless

[Bluenorthwest]

91. Funny how many of the Fancis Superstar posts are untrue or exaggerated

This is false. And yet his boosters believed it. Pitiful.

[Vashta Nerada]

96. Yep.

Slapped on a cute little quote about income equality and attributed it to Pope frank and everyone fell in love with it without checking the facts.

Sad.

[NYC Liberal]

97. Funny how the Francis fans didn't show up in the thread about Ratz defrocking 400 priests

You can bet that if it'd been Francis who threw out all those priests, we'd have seen multiple threads lavishing praise on him for it.

But since it kind of kills the meme that Francis is so ~different~ than the other popes (despite him holding exactly the same positions on major issues), we didn't hear much.

[Vashta Nerada]

98. Of course not.

But, according to the Frank lovers, Ratz was a Nazi.

[NYC Liberal]

99. I don't like either of them. They're BOTH anti-gay, anti-women bigots.

But the attempt to paint Francis as something ~new~ and ~different~, as NOT being a bigot, is nauseating. At least people here recognize Benedict for what he was.

Just look at the fact that more people showed up to praise him in the thread about him driving an old car than they did to condemn him for calling abortion "horrific" last week.

[Vashta Nerada]

100. People almost remained quiet about Francis's opposition to abortion last week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014696038

But hey, a DUers in this very thread asked me to start a thread shitting on poor people because I asked what Pope Francis said about abortion last week.

[NYC Liberal]

101. Joe Lieberman is way more liberal on the issues than Francis is, but

one is despised here and the other loved. Quite interesting what a few good photo-ops can do.

[PeaceNikki]

105. amen.

[SidDithers]

103. This thread is awesome...

100+ recs and Papal adoration, for something Pope Photo-Op didn't even say.



Sid

[Triana]

104. And....

...the scolding commentary which essentially means:

1. You cannot agree with anything the Pope says or believes if you also disagree with other things he says or believes. (ie: you cannot agree with his stance on income inequality and unfettered capitalism while strongly disagreeing with his stance on abortion or contraception or gays) - you must practice black or white thinking only!

2. You shouldn't post anything about the Pope whether you agree with it or not because we don't like him because of his stance on abortion, contraception and gays. Shame on you! We hate Pope adoration threads! (whether the quote attributed to him is something he actually said, or not or something we agree with or not - we hate Pope! Do not post about Pope!).

[Bluenorthwest]

113. Falsehoods and exaggerations are the meat of too many of the Pope posts

His anti choice, anti gay words are real, folks like to pretend he did not say them and instead said all manner of things he has not said.
I understand you did this in error, but error seems to define the Francis promotions and it gets old, tired and hurtful because he is anti gay and against contraception and I for one am not in support of those, his actual words and actual deeds.
The promotion of anti gay and anti choice figures on DU should be done with great care if you feel compelled to support such views. Understand it is insulting to other DUers.
If I said about you what he says about me and my family, you'd break a finger alerting. Do unto others.

[Triana]

118. I don't "support such views"

Sorry you are hurt by my agreement with other views of his though (those he DID express).

As far as the incorrectly attributed quote, it was an honest mistake and I made changes as soon as I learned of it. It wasn't done out of malice against you or anyone else.

I'm sorry that's not enough for you.

[Bluenorthwest]

154. All I'm saying is that folks who insist on promoting an anti gay and anti choice

figure in a political forum might want to consider for half a moment what their promotions communicate to others. Because I don't think they get it.

[Humanist_Activist]

116. I find it amusing that the other day you had a post slamming forced birthers, and another one...

praising a forced birther, the irony is thick.

[Triana]

117. See my comment re: black and white thinking.

Derp.

[Humanist_Activist]

119. So what? I agree with many libertarians on many civil liberty issues, doesn't mean I post...

OPs praising any of them, because I disagree, strongly, on pretty much all economic issues with them.

I also wouldn't label such people as "good" because of their beliefs about the poor, the welfare state, etc. I suck it up and will work with them in Marriage Equality, abolishing the war on drugs, etc. but that's it, they are to be tolerated, not celebrated.

[Triana]

120. What YOU do is your business. What *I* do is mine.

I've been here since 2001. My quite progressive stances on most issues are well-known. And there's another one too and that is that no one controls MY behavior but ME and that you (and everyone else) should stop trying to do what it is my job.

I've seen many a post here from other DUers praising individual comments from those they don't normally think too well of ie: conservatives and the like when said DUers agree with them. It doesn't happen a lot, and it's important to note that the COMMENT is being praised - not necessarily the person or his beliefs in other areas.

So what?

You don't control me, that's what.

If YOU don't post such things then fine. That's YOU. It's not ME.

[Humanist_Activist]

157. I see a lot of people giving this Pope uncritical praise for comments that are, quite frankly...

standard fair for the last 3 Popes or so, look up Catholic Distributism, not to mention Pope Ratzy's quotes on capitalism, he certainly didn't praise it either.

But what people hate about Pope Ratzy's they give Pope Bergy a pass on because his previous actions don't matter, but Ratzinger's past, that mattered a whole lot.

Give me a fucking break. People need to be consistent, or admit they are being selective.

[skepticscott]

109. Gee, what a shock

Credulous DUers wanting to attribute every good thought in the world to this guy, whether he actually said it or not. But why? He is anti-women, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-contraception, protective of child rapists, and very, very far from being anything like a true progressive.

[pnwmom]

114. Pope Francis: "Today we also have to say 'thou shalt not' to an economy of exclusion

and inequality. Such an economy kills."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/pope-francis-holds-capitalism-to-account-29908368.html


UNFETTERED global capitalism has met its match at last. Ever since Bishop Bergoglio picked St Francis of Assisi to be his guiding inspiration in leading a "church for the poor", all his actions have been in the same direction.

Liberation Theology is taking over the Vatican a quarter of a century after John-Paul II systematically sought to stamp out the "singular heresy" in the radical parishes and dioceses of Latin America, a task carried out with dutiful efficiency by Cardinal Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The "preferential option for the poor" is back. The doctrine that so inflamed controversy in the Seventies and 1980, famously wedded to Nicaragua's Sandinista cause, now has a papal imprimatur. It is close to becoming official doctrine for the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics under "Evangelii Gaudium", the Pope's first apostolic exhortation. This will have consequences.

"While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by the happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies that defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and fin-ancial speculation," Pope Francis says.

[LukeFL]

148. I am religious, catholic and very proud

Of him.