Wow, we just got a delivery of LP gas, which we use to heat with.

[Jackpine Radical]

I talked to the delivery guy a little bit. He told me that the current delivered price is $3.95/gallon. He only filled the tank to 70% instead of the usual 80%. We are very fortunate that I have an annual pre-pay contract that I paid for last summer, so our price is only $1.39/gallon, but the people who are going to be hurting the worst are those who couldn't afford to pre-pay, & who are eking out their subsistence month by month. A typical month's supply of 200 gallons is costing them almost $800!

Most LP gas is used for heat in rural homes that are beyond the reach of pipelines. With all the Goddam fracking going on in this country, the big shots are still gouging the hell out of the poor.

LP is not the same thing as natural gas, but it can be extracted from it, as well as produced in the crude oil refining process.

[Fumesucker]

1. Yes, someone else posted a couple of days ago that LP had almost unbelievably shot up in price

[RC]

2. And don't forget the flaring that is still going on.

It is cheaper to burn it off than to sell it.

[Ikonoklast]

15. That is not true. There are valid reasons to flare gas.

If it was cheaper to flare than sell, no gas would be sold.

[Agony]

19. like what?

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/10/17/2801111/natural-gas-flaring-lawsuit/

"Nearly 30 percent of natural gas drilled in North Dakota is intentionally burned off, or flared, resulting in an approximately $1 billion loss, and releasing greenhouse gases equivalent to nearly one million new cars on the road."

[RC]

21. They flare it because it is cheaper than collecting it and building a pipeline.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. You know they dump gasoline too just to reduce supply and keep prices up.

[RC]

31. No they don't, Stop being silly.

But they still are flaring in the Bakken oil fields in North Dakota.

Gas Flaring as Seen from Space
http://www.ceres.org/industry-initiatives/oil-and-gas/gas-flares-from-space

In North Dakota, Flames of Wasted Natural Gas Light the Prairie
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/business/energy-environment/in-north-dakota-wasted-natural-gas-flickers-against-the-sky.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Flaring of gas in North Dakota oil fields draws litigation, scrutiny
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/energy/20131112-flaring-of-gas-in-north-dakota-oil-fields-draws-litigation-scrutiny.ece

Bakken Shale Flaring Burns Nearly One-Third Of Natural Gas Drilled, New Study Finds
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/bakken-shale-flaring_n_3669649.html

And there is much more.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. During the Bush Years they were dumping gas to jack up the prices.

[former9thward]

47. Link to that?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. I'll dig for some later. There were articles on DU back then too.

[Ikonoklast]

64. If there is no pipeline connection to those wellheads, gas gets flared off.

It would be prohibitively expensive to build temporary natgas storage facilities for each wellhead until the pipeline hookup is ready

The resulting costs involved would push the price of that reclaimed gas out of sight.


Gas gets flared until the pipelines being built are connected to the wellheads, the pipeline build-out is seriously lagging behind production in the Bakken because of the shorter working season to accomplish pipeline installation.

The producers would gladly have that gas in a pipeline instead of flaring it, but there is no practical economic way of dealing with it other than flaring it off until the needed pipeline infrastructure is in place.


In the Utica and Marcellus gas fields in SE Ohio, drillers have slowed down their schedule until the main and lateral pipeline construction is finished, around the end of next year.


They are not doing it to keep prices high. If they wanted to keep prices high, they wouldn't be drilling the wells in the first place.

Prices recently spiked due to commodity speculators. Look at natgas futures trading on the NYMEX.

[RC]

66. Untill a little over 3 years ago, I was living in North Dakota.

I lived there for 45 years. Flaring was a major problem for people living in and around the oil fields. Both from the noise and from the light at night. The oil companies did not want to save and pipe the gas because it was expensive to do so. The had to be forced by law to do it. And even then they dragged, are dragging their feet.
Too much available gas would have lowered the market price for them. They even said so at one point. So they flare, waste it.

[TexasTowelie]

3. I saw someone else post a price of $5.25/gallon on DU last night

which was nearly triple the summertime price. There will definitely be less discretionary income this spring and summer.

[YarnAddict]

4. Pretty serious situation

I read on FB this a.m. that prices are going as high as $6.95/gallon in central Wisconsin due to the shortage, that they are rationing, and that there is as much as a 14-day wait for a fill. With temps as low as they are projected to be, this is a serious situation.

[MuseRider]

5. Price of Propane in Kansas

yesterday was over $5.00/gallon. Not too many years ago I paid under a dollar a gallon.

[spanone]

6. gouging, the american way.

[YarnAddict]

7. This message is from Lincoln County

Everyone, From the Director of Emergency Management, Lincoln County: If you are not already aware of the situation, there is a shortage of liquid propane gas (LP) in Wisconsin and nine other states in our region. Due to the shortage, prices have increased to triple what they were a month ago. A survey of local distributers today shows the price of LP at between $4.85 and $6.10 PER GALLON. Along with this, distributors are rationing amounts with each delivery between 100 and 200 gallons. If you call today to get a delivery you can expect to wait between 7 to 14 days for the delivery. With the cold temperatures expected this next week it is in everyone's best interest to check your tank often and call to get on a delivery schedule when your tank reaches 30%. DO NOT wait until you are almost out and expect to get quick delivery. Some parts of northern Wisconsin have had small delivery companies run out of LP and are not able to get a supply for a week or more. A couple small companies have closed their doors. Most all supply companies in the area and other areas of Wisconsin are only delivering to their own customers. They are refusing to take on new customers at this time as they are in a rationing situation. It is time to look at your usage of LP and consider rationing your supply. Turn down your thermostat, close off vents to rooms that do not need heat, and consider alternatives for heating your residences. Restrict or stop using LP in areas that are not essential to life safety. If you unable to get a supply of LP and are close to running out, consider plans to stay with someone who has heat, reduce your temperature as low as you can to conserve what LP you have, and make plans to drain water lines if need be. The weather forecast for the next thirty days is for temperatures to average 10 degrees below normal. The start of next week is to be extremely cold so prepare NOW. The forecast for this shortage is projecting there may not be relief until sometime near the end of February. Wisconsin Emergency Management will be providing information on how to prepare your home for a loss of heat. That information will be forwarded as it becomes available. It will also be available on the READY WISCONSIN website. Other information will also be available on that site. If people are in need of assistance, they may contact the Sheriff's Office dispatch center (715-536-6272) for referral information. When using alternate sources of heat, please remember to be safe in how you use those devices and take precautions to protect yourself from fire and carbon monoxide issues. Stay safe.~Lincoln County Sheriff's Office

[enough]

9. Ominous. (nt)

[seveneyes]

8. Why are the feds allowing this gouging?

Instead of coming down hard on the citizen with a hundred dollar income tax issue, why not hound these criminals screwing the citizens with their propane overcharging? This really hurts the average people.

[durablend]

24. Simple

Team blue is being paid off while team red is A-OK with it (especially if it's something they can beat team blue over the heads with come November)

[seveneyes]

27. Yes, I believe payoffs run deep into the system

It's up to we the voter to make more noise and get honest people working for us, not just for themselves.

[longship]

10. I just bought my third 150 gal delivery of heating oil this season.

@$3.60 per gallon.

Winter came early this year. We've had a lot of snow (but not as much as people just S of me). But the cold is what costs. Heat is expensive. Thank goodness my home is well insulated and my ancient oil furnace is fairly efficient, in its own creaky ways.

Stay warm DUers.

[Auntie Bush]

29. I just got oil for $4.09 which was for two weeks worth. I hate to think what the next

2 weeks will cost. I also use some electric heat in hope of saving oil and dollars. Damn, my electric bill was $260.00. It's costing me around $900 per mo. to heat my house. ((
I had been wishing I had propane heat but, after your post...I don't anymore. It's just TOO expensive for anyone to heat their homes today by any method. I just might have to move in with one of my kids for a couple months. I really don't want to do that!

[Lint Head]

11. Fossil fuels are so 19th century. They need to go away.

[Champion Jack]

12. Nationalize the Oil and Gas companies

[LuvNewcastle]

61. Yes. It should have been done years ago.

[Worried senior]

13. We live about 60

miles north of Green Bay, quite a few of the suppliers here are out of propane and some businesses are closing early and I'm sure will be shutting down until they can get a new supply at a much higher price.

We have natural even here in the country where we live but that is going up too, the last utility bill was a shock but sure the next one will be worse.

I'm sure there is more to this than they are telling us but they are very sure there is no gouging going on, don't believe it.

Walker see's himself as a hero because he lifted the trucking restrictions and will have a commission or whatever on Monday to look into this.

I feel very sorry for those that cannot afford it, this is not a real wealthy area and I'm sure there are many that are really hurting.

[randr]

14. We are sitting on a glut of natural gas

The capitalist principle of supply and demand is no longer in effect. The greed of the uber wealthy takes advantage of the more needy by manipulation of prices when people need the gas the most.
I say we BBQ the 85 wealthiest and split the spoils.

[freebrew]

16. +1000 nt

[LittleGirl]

17. I don't know how those people sleep

at night. If I had money like that, I couldn't give it away fast enough! Especially for heat, food and a roof over their heads.
damn it.

[Auntie Bush]

30. I feel the same way.

[seveneyes]

18. I say we get the damn feds to do their jobs

Price gouging is a crime with our elected leaders in the back pockets of the fuel executives. I have call all my useless reps. Everyone needs to start making some noise.

[BlueStreak]

28. Capitalism only works under a certain set of conditions

1) There is genuine competition in every industry

2) Consumers have access to information about the competition

3) Consumers have the freedom to switch between suppliers to find the best deal for them

4) Sellers are accountable for the FULL TRUE COST of their operation, including things like the roads/infrastructure, impact on the environment, increased heath costs as a result of their products of the manufacturing process.

We have NONE of those conditions in any of the 10 biggest industries in our country now. We have nothing like legitimate capitalism. What we have is fascism where the government and the largest corporations team up to jamb everybody else.

[riqster]

35. ^^^THIS^^^

[Aerows]

46. What happens, too is this

Everybody gets hit with high prices, it affects everyone's wallet, and the government picks up some of the tab (if they are willing to do so). The issue is, a blind man could have seen this shortage coming. Now mind you, I'm not in the oil and gas business, but in about 20 minutes of internet research it is abundantly clear that if it wasn't planned, it sure wasn't stopped, either. Check the links I posted later in this. Forbes was saying get ready for $8 natural gas a little as last year. Since they will be cutting back on yet ANOTHER pipeline, I would imagine next year it will be even worse.

They rake in record profits, consumers get hit with record prices and the taxpayers have to take on the rest.

[BlueStreak]

50. Definitely. It is all rigged. It is not a free market

Capitalism only works in free markets. Where do we have NAY free markets today?

All these billions of dollars flowing into the political system are there for one and only one purpose: to ELIMINATE free markets, and to rig markets to benefit those making the contributions.

Every major industry. Pharma. Banking. Health insurance (which is still about 90% rigged even with the establishment of exchanges), airlines, telecom (big time), defense systems, real estate, retailing (just look at Wal*Mart and Amazon), oil production and other precious commodities.

Tell me what industries ARE open and competitive? The movie industry? Maybe. The automobile industry? Maybe. That's about it. And that is only 5% of our economy. Capitalism is not a viable economic system when 95% of the economic activity is rigged.

[Aerows]

51. Maybe restaurants and tourism?

Food? Even that though is pretty rigged with agricultural subsidies.

[BlueStreak]

58. And re: restaurants

That industry isn't the oligopoly that most economic sectors have become. But compared to 40 years ago, it really is dominated by a few large companies (Darden, MacD, Yum, etc.) We do have the option to cook for ourselves. But of course, the food we buy is given all sorts of subsidies that reward Monsanto, ADM, and the other really vast corporations.

But compared to industries like Telecom, the restaurant industry looks like Adam Smith's paradise.

[kestrel91316]

33. [phone] 000

[Aerows]

44. Well, it isn't like it would take a genius to see this coming

They cut back on storage and pipelines carrying the gas, and they knew all of this long before winter got here. If they didn't, the harvest that required 3 to 4 times the amount of propane than it did last year would have been a clue, too.

I have two articles explaining the situation, including one from Forbes predicting $8 natural gas. Since yet another company is reversing their pipelines this year, next winter should be even more fun!

[ErikJ]

20. Fracking is great! Just wait until were paying $4 a gallon for CLEAN tap water!

[Jackpine Radical]

22. I hope nothing I wrote was taken as a justification for fracking.

We need a whole new approach to energy in this country, but in the meantime fracking, justified as a "cheap-energy" solution, doesn't seem to be much of a solution at all, and meanwhile the poor freeze.

Living where we do, our choices for heating at present are fossil fuels (fuel oil or LP), or maybe an outdoor wood furnace. Wood furnaces are quite inefficient and polluting, and at my age of 69 I'm not about to start logging to feed one of those damned things.

[ErikJ]

26. Or you could move to a warmer climate. THe South needs more Dems.

But lots of times you have to pay even more for AC. THe ideal is a place like the highlands of Latin America, such as in Mexico, Costa Rica, Columbia or Ecuador where NEITHER furnaces or AC are necessary! Springlike weather year round. And cost of living is about 5 times less as well. I've heard you can live comfortably on $800 a month.

[madville]

37. I'm in Florida

I don't think I could take the cold climates.

Everything in my 1200 sq ft house is electric, the bill runs about $100-160 a month, peaking in the summertime with AC use. I keep the heat on 65 in the winter and the AC on 78 in the summer so I try to keep usage down somewhat.

[durablend]

23. You have to believe

They're going to use this as another excuse why Keystone HAS to be built (even though that won't do a damn thing about prices).

[Aerows]

42. I don't doubt it a bit

Take a look at the article from Forbes I linked near the bottom. They were predicting $8 natural gas. Next year will be even worse because the people carrying the natural gas will be reversing even more of the lines up to Canada to carry distillates.

[DesertFlower]

32. holy moly. i live in phoenix. my

house is all electric including the well and septic.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. do you pay the entire year up front?

[Jackpine Radical]

36. Yes. I bought 1,000 gallons in the summer @ $1.39.

We have done the same for many years. Of course the prepay price varies from year to year, and we have seldom if ever gone through the entire amount. This year, despite the cold, I think we'll be OK. We just put $4500 into insulation & I did a fair amount of sealing-up of air leaks in the basement. The main part of our house was built in about 1905--an old red brick farmhouse.

[druidity33]

59. It's all about insulation...

I have a 1200 sf home with double wall blown cellulose. I swear i can heat my home with my oven if i need to. We spend about a third to half of what our neighbors do on heat. Of course the house is so tight we have humidity/dryness issues. Radiant floor poored concrete slab and PV plus solar hot water have helped with utility cost, but siting the house due south and letting the eaves and windows take advantage of (or remove) the solar gain is what helps most. Still there are days i would love a woodstove...

Stay Warm!

[madrchsod]

39. if my memory serves me during the oil crisis of the early 70`s....

i was paying around 2.50 to 3.00 per gallon.


when the lowest temp in alaska is -2 and the lowest temp in wisconsin is -25 or so, i think we have a problem.

[RebelOne]

45. If my memory is correct, during the oil crisis of the early '70s,

I was paying $1.25 a gallon for gas for my car and I thought that was high. I was living in South Florida at the time and didn't need gas for heating the house.

[Liberal_in_LA]

40. interesting. kick

[Aerows]

41. $8 Natural Gas, right on schedule

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardfinger/2012/10/14/8-natural-gas-were-right-on-schedule/

Look at the date on the article and the explanation. Granted, the huge amount of propane used for the giant corn crop didn't help, but still, makes you wonder, doesn't it? Oh, not to mention one company had reversed their pipes to carry distillates to Canada, and NEXT year, an even bigger one is going to reverse theirs to carry something other than natural gas. I can't find the article now, but i'll link it when I do

[Aerows]

43. Here's the article I was looking for

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/24/us-energy-propane-shortage-idUSBREA0N0AB20140124

It's not just the cold or the high usage during harvest season to dry the crops, part of it is that they have stopped using certain key pipeline to transport the gas. Trucks are filling directly from the pipelines, but there are fewer pipelines and a lot less storage. Not necessarily engineered, but not exactly unexpected, either.

[davidpdx]

48. My car here in South Korea runs on LP

(We refer to it as LPG). Right now it's running about 1103 won per liter which runs about $3.86 a gallon (pretty close to the current price there). The price has been pretty stable since I bought my car four years ago only going up about 40 cents a gallon. Thankfully I don't drive very much at all.

You got an awesome deal on the prepay. Hopefully it lasts you the whole winter.

[Aerows]

49. South Korea

has pretty strict price controls, though, don't they?

[davidpdx]

57. Could be

I don't keep up with the news on a regular basis as the English language papers aren't very good. I know regular gas is well over $6 a gallon.

[MindMover]

52. Venezuela pricing and soon enough, Feds jump in and regulate ...

all within 2 weeks .... welcome to the roller coaster ride from hell ...

[IADEMO2004]

53. Wisconsin Residential Propane prices 1992-2014 Graph

At the link check box for Residential Propane and then click Graph at the top of the same column.


http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_SWI_w.htm

[KoKo]

54. I feel for you..truly. Is there price manipulation going on..do you think?

But...I'm here shivering in my Southern house heated by some kind of crap "Apollo Heat System" that uses water from water heater to go under our crawl space to heat our house.

I was used to regular Gas Heat when we moved here from N.J...but, here it's "Heat Pumps" or what we got with our house which is "Apollo Water Heat" which when the Temps did below around 45 Degrees we freeze.

This Winter for the Cold duration is very unusual here...so it's only January we usually have to drag our Northeast clothes out...but, this has been a Looooong stretch since December so was dragging stuff out I'd trunked since we lived in Connecticut...because the New Jersey stuff wasn't warm enough.

Good thing I didn't get rid of the Heavy Duty Winter Woolies (for sentimental reasons ...thinking we might move back there someday...and I'm frugal.

But, sheesh....motheaten wool socks and some old LL Bean Parka's are not looking so "With It" but, at least we are keeping warm with our electric cook stove turned on and the door open.

What a Winter! I can't imagine what the rest of you all are going through in the MidWest...

Plus...we are seeing nothing but Grey Skies week after week...which I associate with my days in New England. It's not like anything I've ever seen since we moved South. (in my wildest CT times....I think it might be an "experiment." ...but, then I realize it's the change of the Jet Stream due to the Arctic Melting changing the wind currents/jet stream...and I figure...it's what we will have to live with.

I hate to think of of Heating Bill and Water usage since our system is just off the hot water heater. And those who just can't afford to pay and live in rural areas...with different problems.

TOUGH TIMES...in this unusual Winter for us all.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. I think the Maine gov website said avg price here is 3.25, and that it's up

fifty cents from this time last year.

We are very grateful that we got the pellet stove this fall, as it has cut down on our propane use somewhat. Last winter we spent almost $400 a month for heat, hot water, and cooking combined, and the last bill we got in early December was the same amount for 2 months. Not sure what we have spent on pellets as we buy a little at a time. But cost wise it feels different because we pay as we go instead of getting bigger bills all at once.

Still, a bit worried about the next propane fill since the stove was out of commission for a couple of weeks, so we relied on the furnace and space heaters.

[ProfessorGAC]

60. This Doesn't Make A Lot Of Sense

LP is secondary product of natural gas. It's separated from the methane so that the pipeline product is highly pure methane.

If natural gas prices are going down, it's hard to grasp how the price goes up on LP this much unless there is willful manipulation.
GAC

[madokie]

62. Thats why we switched to an all electric

home using wood pellets and this winter adding a high efficiency mini split heat pump to the mix
Winter of 91-92 bought our first wood pellet stove, paid $1100 for it. It paid for itself in three winters over the cost of propane. This winter I'm here to brag on our new mini split heat pump/air conditioner (SEER of 19.2) that is working wonders. It uses not much more electric to operate than the pellet stove does and keeps the house toasty warm. Our total electric bill is 80 to 90 bucks a month this winter. Hot water, cooking and most of our heat. I've burned 12 bags of pellets so far with the 13th one in the stove now.
This has been a really cold winter here too. Lots of below 20 degrees days and nights with several below 5 degrees. If you own your own home I encourage you to check into a new high effieciency heat pump and wood pellet or corn stove, either is much cheaper than propane. They pay for themselves pretty durn quick.

The last time I put a pencil to it we've saved well over $7000 dollars since we bought our first pellet stove and that includes the three stoves we've bought during that time. Not because they wear out but because we wanted to upgrade to newer features and more modern looks etc.

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. I wouldn't mind a ductless AC in the summer, as much for the humidity as the heat. Right now, though

it's the last thing on my mind. LOL

What sq footage is your pellet stove rated for? Ours is supposed to be for 2000 and we have a great blower on it, but even with doorway fans I wouldn't say it warms the ends of the house so much as keeps it warm enough to stop the furnace coming on, which is fine. Maybe 55-60 depending on which room you are in. I do still use the furnace to heat up the bedrooms before we turn in for the night, though, and sometimes in the mornings, although we're using space heaters more for that. Hate to waste all that propane just to warm up rooms people will be leaving for the day.

[L0oniX]

65. Be happy you are not living on an indian reservation in a trailer.

[MindMover]

67. Was in a cabin for 3 years on the Res ...