This kind of thing just PISSES ME OFF. Women writers "of a certain age" should just hide it.

[nolabear]

I read this in the NYT Review of Books yesterday and I wanted to scream. Not only the idea, which I think has support, but her stupid, STUPID suggestion for a solution. This is the kind of shit we have to put up with. If you're young, you "get" to be objectified, and if not, you should be a willing participant in your own disappearance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/books/review/writer-of-a-certain-age.html?ref=review&_r=0

[supernova]

1. Well, being in the demographic

she is describing, I didn't take that away from her piece at all.

I'm a writer and a female "of a certain age."

I think her piece, for the most part, is just describing what we all know to be true. That fact itself is infuriating enough. You are noticeable if you are young and nubile, whether female actor or writer. If you are older you are invisible. That's certainly the cultural trope.

What do you do to change that? One way is more of us saying, yes! Yes, I am 50-ish, 60-ish, or whatever age you happen to be. That's what this age looks like ON ME!

I have to say, I'm considering self publishing. Not because I'm not worthy, but because I don't want any barriers in place to produce what I know I can produce. We all know that not everything worth reading, worth finding its audience gets published with an agent and backed by lots of marketing $$ from a major publishing house. In fact, very few do.

I'll top that. I would be willing to bet that the last celebrity tell all du jour ghost-written "autobiography" was at the expense of backing some scribbler out there who would have written the next Outlander or Game of Thrones, or even Cannery Row.

[nolabear]

5. That's my point. She doesn't advocate being loud and proud, but hiding your age.

It IS all too true. Lots of things are all too true. We should talk, because we've got a lot in common.

[supernova]

15. I really didn't get that

from what she writes here. Remember how old she is. She started in the late 60s. That means for the preponderance of her youth and young adulthood, authors didn't put pictures of themselves on their books. Walk into any used book store or antique book store and how many books and dusty tomes include a picture of the author? Not many. It was all about the writing and the ideas, not what the author looked like, either pretty or plain, young or old.

She's not advocating hiding, IMO, so much as lamenting that we writers have to have a physical "image" at all.

[mainer]

17. And from what I've seen, she really doesn't hide her age

She still goes on book tour.

Male authors also hide their ages. Some of their author photos are over a decade old!

[LWolf]

55. Being in the demographic she is describing, and not a writer,

I can say what we all know to be true for all women, writers or not, fictional characters or real women: you are noticeable if you are young and nubile; if you are older you are invisible.

That fact drove my life when I WAS young and nubile, spurring some extreme efforts to be unnoticeable because I wanted to leave sexual harassment and abuse behind. Being older brought freedom. I could be a person with other people, instead of an object. Of course, it also cost me a marriage.

Many of my favorite female authors through the decades of my life have been older (at least at some point) and not always head-turning beautiful. Or maybe they were, and I just didn't "meet" them on the pages of their work when they were younger. I never cared. As I age, I mourn their passing greatly, knowing the loss of their future work.

That publishers want female protagonists to be young and nubile is understandable; our culture doesn't value women with miles of age and experience. I knew when my last husband left me after 11 years for a yes, younger woman, that I was going to be alone for the rest of my life. I was beyond the "use by" date, and I wasn't willing to advertise and work and compete with the rest of the discarded older women for the dwindling number of men who would have them. While there are drawbacks, the freedom to not be "on the market" as an unpaired woman is liberating, to say the least. I wouldn't change my last 13 years of independence.

Writing is just one profession in which age discrimination and sexism plays out.

[nolabear]

6. I...I...

[supernova]

16. Not helpful

[CFLDem]

28. What?

Who doesn't like eating fresh out of the oven chocolate chip cookies while petting a purring cat?

🐆🐈🍪 🍪🐈🐅
🐈🐈🐅🐈🐆🐅🐈🐈🐈🐆🐅

[bettyellen]

33. bullshit, that's what. rude, sexist…..you should delete that.

[CFLDem]

34. I see.

Not cat or dessert people. How about puppies and fresh veggies instead?


🐩🐩🐕🐕🐶🍓🍇🍉🍎

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. How about a nice cuppa STFU when Adult Women are talking. Listen and Learn. Show some respect.

You have the audacity to enter this thread with that pity pat crap? Really?

[CFLDem]

36. Oh I get it.

why didn't you just say so.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. Really the next couple of years are going to be ALL ABOUT WOMEN on the

political spectrum. Watch and See.

Sorry, MEN ... your turn to ride in the backseat for a while and swap recipes or sports scores.

[CFLDem]

38. Ok. I'll try not to strain my eyes.

BTW I'm pro Hillary/Warren so don't even think about it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. if you are what you say you are then ACT like it. When actions and words do not match there

is a Lie being spread and Deceiving is taking place. n'est-ce pas?

[CFLDem]

40. Just because I'm for something

doesn't mean I can't have a little fun.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. Go play with boys if you want to have fun. I am ever so gently trying to explain to you

what the next two years on DU3 are going to be. Get used to it.

[CFLDem]

42. Girl power!

[davidn3600]

48. And I suppose the world will be all different with Hillary as prez because she's a woman, right?

America will be peaceful and loving. No more violence or racism or poverty. We have a woman as our head of state! Just like every other country with a female head of state changed the world!

Don't kid yourself...nothing will change. Americans will notice no difference at all. Especially since Hillary is a Washington insider and favors the 1%.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. Please, kind Sir - Do Not put words in my mouth. Nothing you said had anything at all to do with

what I posted.

[frwrfpos]

32. that was rude as shit

Wtf?

[mainer]

3. Like Supernova, I didn't interpret it that way either

She's just saying, "this is what one has to do to be successful in this youth-obsessed market." More a practical piece than anything else.

Some men hide their gender to write romance fiction. Some women hide their gender to write action thrillers. And older writers (male or female) might have to hide their age to write teen fiction. Luckily, writers can get away with it because, absent the author photo, no one really knows what the writer looks like.

[mainer]

4. p.s., Weldon's been writing since 1967

So she knows what it's like to grow old in the business. I met her once and she seemed very sweet.

One of my favorite books of hers was "Confessions of a She-Devil." Hilarious!

[nolabear]

8. I have nothing against her or her work. But this?

No.

[nolabear]

7. I am absolutely gobsmacked by the responses so far.

Who would tell an African American or a gay person or anyone else (except probably the overweight) in this day and age to just hide who you are so people can continue to discriminate against people like you?

Unbelievable.

[mainer]

9. I once did precisely that -- hidden my identity

to maximize my sales. In a racist country, sometimes it's what you do to get your foot in the door.

[redqueen]

11. I'm sure not. Not one eensy weensy wittle bit.

Can you guess why?

[redqueen]

10. That's just the way it is, nolabear. Just accept it.

You don't have to like the truth but it's not her fault it's true.

Gender rules all. Men can't write romance. Women aren't supposed to get old and if they do they can fuck the fuck off. She didn't write the rules, why are you mad at her?

What do you expect her to do? Speak out against these bullshit 'rules'? Call them out for the idiotic, archaic, patriarchal dipshittery they are? Actually try to change things?

[mainer]

12. Sure, she's free to call 'em out

And an old guy is free to market himself as an erotic romance novelist.

The question is, who is going to actually make a living as a writer, and who is going to be forced to stick to the day job? You make choices, and some people see how the deck is stacked, and decide how best to become successful.

I have this conversation with writers all the time. I know quite a few male authors who write under initials, so people don't know they're men. Even JK Rowling wrote under initials, to disguise the fact she's female and avoid scaring off boy readers.

Once you're successful, you can come out as yourself. But to get a platform, sometimes it makes sense to achieve success first.

[lapislzi]

13. I found the article insulting.

I am a writer in my 50s. To suggest that avenues such as sexuality and adventure are now closed off to me is...well, insulting. These things are not the sole purview of the young and so-called "beautiful." I will NOT go gently into that good night, hanging my head on my crepey neck. Fuck that. I'm having more fun now than I ever had in my life. If my bulging hips bother you...well, that's your problem.

[mainer]

14. And are you as best-selling as Fay Weldon?

Is writing your sole source of income?

[lapislzi]

22. How is that even relevant?

Because Ms Weldon is a best-selling novelist, her opinion is more valid?

To answer your (insulting) question: I write for a living. I don't have Ms. Weldon's sales figures available (nor do I care), but my books have sold close to a million copies.

Next question?

[mainer]

24. people who are successful in this business...

would know and understand what Ms. Weldon's talking about.

I don't know of a single best-selling author (and I know dozens of them) who wouldn't sympathize with Ms. Weldon.

And to better define "bestselling," I am talking about writers who've sold at least ten million copies. That term "bestselling" can have a lot of different definitions.

btw, NO ONE is saying that you're being cut off from any topic for your novels. No one is saying you can't write hot teen vampire novels. All Ms. Weldon is saying is that, to hit your peak in the market, it sometimes makes sense for a writer not to parade around shouting their age.

(speaking as someone in her 60s)

[mainer]

18. It's a problem with public figures in general

Actors struggle to stay young-looking, to get the roles they want. Singers get facelifts. Politicians dye their hair. Why attack Fay Weldon when you should be attacking every movie star who's ever had an eye-lift, every female senator who covers her gray?

[siligut]

19. Fay Weldon was one of my favorite writers when we were both young and sexy

I don't get a chance to read much fiction these days. I would characterize her as practical in a magical way. Her work empowers women, at least what she wrote in the 80s did. Here is Tina Fey and Amy Poehler at the 71st Golden Globes Awards to commiserate with, the first minute and a half is filled with jokes about older women in the media.

[nolabear]

20. I give up. I just plain give up.

[siligut]

25. Well, shit was it something I said?

Was my post the proverbial straw?

[mainer]

26. We're not supposed to be talking about the realities of staying employed

because we're supposed to be pointing to our 60-year-old faces and yelling "Hire THIS! Hire THIS!"

Anything else is just, well, acceding to ageism.

[siligut]

29. Of course ageism is irritating as hell

And as far as I can tell, the USA is the worst regarding ageism toward women. But reality is what it is.

[mainer]

21. As tough as it is for novelists, it's far worse for screenwriters

I once had a script conference in L.A. where no one in the room looked over 30. Screenwriters I know are always telling me how tough it is to get a gig once you're past 50, and how many of them desperately try to disguise their ages. Should they be condemned for trying to stay employed?

[CBGLuthier]

23. I think it is a good comment on the whole youth trend

Always enjoyed Fay Weldon.

I noticed recently they were trying to reboot Murder She Wrote with a 42 year-old actress. I imagine the next Spiderman will actually be a thirteen year-old.

[SheilaT]

27. It seems to me as a reader

that quite a few writers hide (if you want to call it that) behind a pen name, or a glamor photo, or a photo that is decades old.

Personally, when I'm reading I just want a good read, and there are far too few of them out there mainly because the writers are being pushed to write strictly to formula, especially in this country.

[Warpy]

30. No kidding, there are authors I've read for many years

who still have the youthful photo on the cover. Very few book tours come to this city (odd since we have the highest number of writers per capita and plenty of indie bookstores) so we never get the chance to see what they really look like. Once in a blue moon a publisher will allow an author to show her gray hair but only if she's been dolled up like a Glamor Shot, otherwise.

There have been a few books out there recently with vibrant middle aged characters and rather flat young ones, "The Help" and "Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood" come to mind. Otherwise, it's a wasteland out there for any of us over 40 who want to read stories about ourselves as well as authors who want their real photos on the back cover.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. Be Loud and Be Proud.

[mainer]

43. Here's what happened to a writer I know

He wrote a terrific novel, told from a woman's point of view. Publisher said they'd buy it, but they wanted it marketed under a gender-neutral name with initials, to hide the fact he's a guy. Publisher said it would sell much better, because the voice is so feminine, it would find its market mostly among women readers, and a man's name on the cover might make female readers shy away.

So here's your personal thought experiment of the day. What if you were that writer, and publisher says: "We'll pay you a million bucks if you hide the fact you're a man under a gender-neutral name? But if you refuse to go along, we don't want to publish you." Would you take the million bucks and get published? Or refuse, and not get published at all?

This writer took the million bucks, the book became a bestseller, he got a Hollywood deal, and guess what? On book tour, of course, it became obvious he was a man and shebang! It generated even more publicity, because the "disguise" became part of the publicity push.

That's one case where NOT being loud and proud at the very beginning worked in his favor.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. By all means argue for the status quo if you so choose. You just gave the perfect

example of how it hurts all of us to keep playing into these gender stereotypes.

Now That The Man has a public voice I hope he is using it to help break down the very barriers he encountered.

Good for him that he made the deal but, have you ever asked him how he felt that day?

If he is/was honest I bet maybe, just maybe, he felt like he sold a tiny piece of his soul.

And, I don't doubt that he thought it was worth it. A million dollars is a lot of money for a piece of soul.

[mainer]

49. He feels great about it.

And they've bought his second book.

Using initials is "Selling a piece of your soul"? Isn't that what JK Rowling did? Isn't that what a lot of authors do, male and female?

How on earth can you all blame the author, when the problem is THE BUYING PUBLIC, meaning YOU. If books about older characters were continual bestsellers, don't you think publishers would respond by publishing tons of them? If older authors didn't feel discriminated against, don't you think they'd be thrilled to reveal their real selves?

CONSUMERS are the problem. The authors are only trying to make a living.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. At least, YOU finally admit that There Is A Problem. Thank you. As for this blame of which you

speak - I have not read the books mentioned and have known since a young child that Initials, Ghostwriters, Anonymous and Pseudonyms exist.

How about we educate Consumers?

I never mentioned the word Blame.

Actually, gender of author is not really a concern nor, top priority of mine when choosing a book to read.

[mainer]

54. People bashing Fay Weldon isn't blame?

Who's condemning authors for "selling their souls", as if THEY are the ones at fault?

All I've done in this entire thread is defend the authors in a market that works against us as we age. While you and others accuse the poor authors of being the problem.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. What you are doing is defending authors who continue to work within the patriarchal construct

Who, rather than, tear down walls are (perhaps unintentionally for survival's sake) reinforcing and strengthening the very walls that are separating us.

A lot of Right Wing women work against themselves. They have bought into the a benevolent patriarchy. We see it for what it is and try to educate why and how it is not good for either gender. This woman is no different. She is feeding the patriarchy. We are calling it out explaining why she is victim. I am NOT blaming her. I am calling it out for education.

[mainer]

59. Yes, I am defending authors. Men who write as women. Women who write as men.

Men who use decades-old author photos. Blacks who write as whites, whites who write as blacks. Authors who use pen names to disguise the fact they're Turkish, or because their Polish names are too hard to spell, or because no one would believe that a writer with a Vietnamese name could possibly write a cowboy novel.

I defend artists who work for their livelihoods, and who are forced to deal with the society in which they find themselves.

I will not tear them down for the choices they make and call them tools of the sexist/racist/ageist regime. They are my colleagues, I respect their choices even if I don't always agree with them, and I won't judge them until I have walked in their shoes.

[Brigid]

45. I have two ideas for novels I would like to write.

One is about a female historical figure who has never been written about as far as I know. The other topic has been written about; but that novel got somewhat mixed reviews, so I may try my hand at it anyway. Once I've finished, maybe I'll try self-publishing through Amazon or something. If it doesn't do well, so be it. I won't hide who I am. Barbara Kingsolver seems to do OK, and the photo on the cover of her novel "The Lacuna" looks just fine. She looks like a well-groomed woman of her age. I just never thought anything of it when I saw an author's photo. It just never occurred to me that my age (55) would be considered a problem.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. What in that makes you think she says women of that age 'should just hide it'?

You seem to be outraged at your personal interpretation of what she wrote. I can't see anything there saying "hide your age if you're over ...". She's just saying "people buy fewer books that are about older women".

[MadrasT]

47. After reading this thread

I am struggling to comprehend that anyone in the world would care how old an author is, what they look like, or if they have boy bits or girl bits.

People actually care?

I only care of the words on the page are compelling. I would have thought all this business did not matter one bit in the world of writing.

What a fucked up thing we have going on here.

What a weird world.

[mainer]

50. I don't care how old they are, either.

In fact, if a book's an historical novel, I'm more likely to want some lines on that author's face, just to assure me that he/she has the experience to know what they're doing.

But CONSUMERS drive the market, and if they refuse to buy a book about old characters, that book is toast.

[mainer]

51. I'm amazed how you're attacking THE VICTIM

Unleashing your anger on an older woman who's trying to make a living. You're pinning the blame on her, when the fault lies in society and the reading public. Do you similarly blame minorities for trying to blend in with whites? It's all THEIR FAULT for perpetuating racism?

Sheesh. Make the old lady the problem, that's what you're doing.

[HappyMe]

57. I think it's up to the individual author.

A lot of men and women use their initials and last name, others have a pen name that is not gender specific.

If I don't want my picture or real name on my book, then that's the way I want it. Reveal your age or sex or don't. It doesn't matter to me.

[treestar]

58. Makes no sense to me

Who cares what an author looks like? I'm going to read boring shit because the author looks good? Skip good stuff because the author doesn't? This is absurd.

[mainer]

60. Average published author pay: $5,000- 10,000

No wonder many of them do whatever they can to make it in the business -- even use initials in their name, horrors!

According to data from a new survey from Digital Book World and Writer’s Digest, the median income range for self-published authors is under $5,000 and nearly 20% of self-published authors report deriving no income from their writing.

By comparison, authors published by traditional publishers had a median income range of $5,000 to $9,999 and “hybrid authors” (those who both self-publish and publish with established publishers) had a median income range of $15,000 to $19,999.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremygreenfield/2013/12/09/how-much-money-do-self-published-authors-make/