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[Name removed]

[msongs]

1. he oughta get new friends, I dont know any gay men who act like this nt

[pnwmom]

2. I did. It was common at one time, and painful to me as a young female. Hopefully

gay men today don't do that -- it was an artifact of the times.

It wasn't something I could really avoid since it was my father and his friends calling women b*s and witches, etc. It's been ten years, but I also used to go on a site for adult children of gays, and at that time people were still talking about it as a problem. Young men also complained about their mother's friends saying derogatory things about men in their presence. It's difficult when a young kid or teen feels he has to stand up for his entire gender -- that he's surrounded by women who are inclined to dislike him because he's the wrong sex.

ON EDIT: I just read the whole article. He's given some examples from the more recent past. For example, the humor on Will and Grace -- a show that always bothered me, for the kind of thing he's talking about. Just because a man is gay doesn't mean it's okay to say misogynistic things. It doesn't make nasty comments "all in good fun."

"Mizrahi is one example. On Will & Grace, you could create an entire drinking game around the number of times Jack recoils at the mention of female sexuality or says something about Grace's body; it's meant to be winky and fun, but ends up sounding like a broken misogynistic record."

[theHandpuppet]

10. I did as well

I hope times have changed.

[HappyMe]

7. I don't either.

I have and have had oodles of gay men for friends - none of that ever went on.

[pnwmom]

11. Did the humor on Will and Grace ever bother you?

""Mizrahi is one example. On Will & Grace, you could create an entire drinking game around the number of times Jack recoils at the mention of female sexuality or says something about Grace's body; it's meant to be winky and fun, but ends up sounding like a broken misogynistic record."

Or is it okay when it's gay guys doing it?

[HappyMe]

12. I love Will and Grace.

I don't tend to look around for stuff to piss me off though.

[pnwmom]

14. Oh, yeah, that must be my problem.

I just wanted to be offended, and wanted to hear snarky anti-female comments growing up. And I didn't have any sense of humor -- just couldn't take the joke.

[HappyMe]

17. What do you want from me?

You asked if I was offended by Will and Grace. I am not.


I'm not going to pretend to be outraged, and fling my gay friends under the bus for the sake of 'getting along' on a damn message board.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. And for that...

[bettyellen]

44. first you say you have never seen it, then that you have on TV… but it didn't bug you.

which one is actually true?

[dbackjon]

37. Is that really misogynistic?

I don't think so.

[pnwmom]

73. Growing up around that kind of "humor" it felt that way to me.

I didn't know the word misogynistic then, but it was wounding.

[pnwmom]

3. Thanks for the article. It gave me a lot to think about. Imagine being a teen

and the men acting like this are your father and his friends.

All people who are going to have children should consider how their attitudes about the opposite sex are going to affect them -- and change their behavior accordingly. It's not okay to disrespect a whole gender whether you're gay or straight.

[Agschmid]

4. Hmmm...

Kind of a confusing comment. I mean misogyny exists all around us... gay male parents or not?

I may just not be understanding.

[pnwmom]

13. It was a confusing thing to grow up with. Very mixed messages.

My dad thought of himself as this very progressive person, but would make all these snarky comments about women and their bodies. And call them witches and bitches, but with a big smile on his face, like it was all in good humor and we (his daughters) were supposed to laugh, too.

Usually when straight guys are misogynists, they're not pretending to be open-minded, pro-women, progressives.

[Agschmid]

5. Good read.

I will tell you as a gay man I found some parts of this article frustrating to read since the people who I spend my time with don't do this.

Sort of has that "give everyone a bad name" thing going on.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Personally, I thought most of it was crap.

It drew wild conclusions and relied on its own arsenal of stereotypes. While there are certainly sexist gay men, there are plenty of women who treat gay men like accessories, fondle us, and use us like a stereotype. I avoid those people (from both perspectives).

[Agschmid]

8. Agree...

Sometimes crap can be a good read so you know what the hell others are thinking... Even when they have clearly lost it.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Explains my "love" of reading Nazi (and neo-Nazi) material.

You are quite correct, sometimes "crap" is necessary to read otherwise you are only seeing one side.

Good to see you!

[Aerows]

19. Not to mention

There are plenty of wonderful people that are women that would never do that, which are our friends and family. Who acts like that in your circle that tries to make people into that? Like I said, trying to cram everyone into a sexist/homophobic stew pot to make soup out of what are fresh individuals.

I guess if they turn the heat up, it might get there, but most refuse to get shoved into a single category.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. You hit the head on the nail.

In all honesty, I think some of this may be because the GLBT community is evolving. Back in the day, not too long ago, we didn't really have "allies". Anyone who stood up for GLBT people just had to be one. Nowadays, allies, real ones, not just the straight people who don't cringe when they hear "gay", are more common. Gay bars didn't like non-gay people in the bar because it was supposed to be a safe space for GLBT people. Much of that is different now. People aren't worried about being seeing in gay clubs, at pride marches, or going over to a gay person's house. So, some of the stereotypical behaviors (fear of women's parts, saying nasty things about women/men (for lesbians)), which were reinforced by the media and history, are starting to become archaic. Women who treat gay men like accessories are becoming fewer and fewer, as are gay men that utilize anti-female actions.

[Aerows]

38. I think you are right, too

that the community as a whole is evolving, I just don't like judging individual, thinking people as a whole as though we don't have our share of bad apples and that we all agree with said bad apples. Most of us don't, some of us do, but the point is, we are also individuals with the same flaws, missteps and oddities as every other individual on the planet. Judging all of us because a few of us suck isn't right.

[Aerows]

15. Yep. As a gay female with many gay male friends

It offended the crap out of me. Friends are your friends. Before I ever came out I had some nice gay male friends, and I never treated them like that, nor they, me. This is some sort of attempt to make a pot of divisive soup out of stereotype stock.

Not happening.

[pnwmom]

18. Not happening? I hope you're right.

But ten years ago, when I spent a lot of time on a site for adult children of gay people, it was still happening. It was a common concern. I tried to talk about it here years ago and ran into a brick wall of denial.

[Aerows]

20. You are straight, though, correct? n/t

[pnwmom]

21. Yes. And my father and his friends were gay. And they seemed to think

that being gay gave them a pass on misogynistic humor and comments that wouldn't have been okay with a straight man. (Though my father wasn't even out when I was a teen so I had no idea where he was coming from.)

[Aerows]

22. So you are saying that in your experience

with one subset of the population that gay men are more misogynistic than straight men?

That confuses me a little bit, because it strikes me as anecdotal rather than a general trend. As you can imagine, I know quite a few gay men, being a lesbian myself, and I also know a lot of straight women that are friends with gay men.

I don't like this characterization, because it is too general. Maybe I'm too optimistic, or just have better friends.

[pnwmom]

23. Not more misogynistic.

There are misogynistic straight men, too -- but they're not pretending to be progressive, usually. My dad would act as if he was so pro-women, so into empowering -- and yet would say these snarky, sexist, objectifying things.

If my husband acted that way toward my daughter . . . never mind. He wouldn't -- not in a million years. He just accepts her and values her for the person she is, without having any negative attitudes about her gender.

Again, straight men can be jerks about women, too. But they don't usually pretend to be progressive. They're just jerks.

[Aerows]

25. So you are saying

that gay men pretend to be progressive? And straight men don't pretend to be progressive?

I'm still confused.

Is it better for straight men to pretend to be progressive instead of gay men? Since all gay men have the same progressive attitudes, and straight men pretend to have them...

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying here.

I'm attempting to get over the idea that all gay men are progressive, have progressive attitudes and aren't people as flawed and weird as straight people.

[pnwmom]

27. I'm saying that there is a subset of gay men

who give very mixed messages. They genuinely think they like women and so they can behave badly toward women -- that they get a pass with negative humor because they are gay. The writer of the OP is saying, no -- that when a gay man behaves this way it is just as wrong as when a straight man behaves this way.

Maybe you should read the whole article in the OP. He does a better job of explaining this than I can.

[Aerows]

29. Oh, I read it

I'm just interested in what you seem to have read, and gotten out of it, at this point.

[bettyellen]

59. I think it's always been a small subset of jerks and it is getting smaller all the time.

in my field, 80%+ of men are gay. Over fifteen years, I would say 3-4 out of about 30-40 were very rude, openly talking about women and how very very gross they were. Our jobs involve touching women, staring at their entire body- including boobs, butts, crotches and often seeing them in varying states of dress. One used to constantly fake being nauseated by our model, even though he considered her a friend. She was always pretty hurt by that, but felt she had to endure the jibes.

Another used to just go on and on loudly and frequently about womens' genitals so a good dozen people would hear him. Our boss, who was otherwise great, thought he was funny and he got bolder and louder, insulting coworkers in the office directly. A lot of women were bothered, but he was a bully who had big bosses in his pocket. We were concerned someone higher up would hear our boss's tacit acceptance of it, and it would damage her more than it would him if it became an HR issue. At some point it got too loud, and very nasty and personal, and he was told to knock it off. He was very angry about having to control himself, I had to laugh at how fucking miserable it made him for the rest of his tenure there. He now was loudly complaining about how oppressed he was, LOL.

In short, I think this kind of think is a lot less common than it used to be, but like every kind of rude, nasty behavior you may find little pockets of it where it is almost the norm. The only reason people put up with it was this guy was a "teacher's pet" type, and standing up to him would, politically speaking, be a big career mistake.

[pnwmom]

62. Thank you. Unfortunately, the outliers can have a bigger impact than they should.

And the guys who are very extreme can make other men think not-so-extreme comments on women's bodies are relatively okay (even when they're not).

Fortunately, I agree with you that all of this seems to be less common than it used to be, and I'm hopeful that this trend is continuing.

[Scootaloo]

68. When you have to go "So you're saying..." odds are the person isn't saying that at all

If you're perplexed, phrase it as a question, "are you saying...?" or the more neutral "what do you mean by...?"

[Aerows]

70. Good point, Scoot

I could have phrased that better. I will keep that in mind in the future. I really should have said "Are you saying" instead of attempting to put words in the mouth of someone (which I didn't realize until you pointed it out).

[theHandpuppet]

46. Treating gay men as accessories

What really bugs the hell out of me is that we see it so much on the tube. It's an objectification of gay men, IMO. Could be a discussion unto itself.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Someone actually posted something to that effect in the LGBT group awhile back.

I can honestly say as a bartender at gay bar, I hated bachelorette parties! It was like we were on display and there for their amusement. And what few lesbians we had in the bar, cleared out like their asses were on fire. Some of our gay male patrons would hit the bricks too when those parties came around.

Like I said to Aerows, I feel the gay community as a whole is evolving to fit into the new world being created, but there are still many things to overcome. My partner and I went to fill up our tanks with gas ($2.17 for 20 gallons! Yea rewards programs!!), and as he walked away to his car, I said, "Drive Safely. I love you!" I cringed! I thought, "Oh FUCK! Did I just get us on some homophobes stalking list?!" I waited to make sure he got in the car...just in case. Chances are nothing would happen, or the worst thing would be someone yelling "faggots!", but I still get overly paranoid, especially in small towns.

The gay man as an accessory was actually a topic on the TV show "Sean Saves the World," where Sean had to "act" like a "queeny fag" in order to get the attention of the woman in charge of the prom for his daughter's school. Sure, it is a comedy, and it was funny watching him reprise his "Jack" character, but it is a reality for many gay men. It is the idea we will be "tolerated" as long as we conform to certain stereotypes.

[theHandpuppet]

60. Is it because the "accessory" is a "safe" gay male?

I ask this in context of television, mostly. It seems to be the primary image of gay men that the public is permitted to see... even promoted. It's rather like the opposite of how women are allowed to appear on TV -- they have to appear dangerous, sexy. It's the flip side to the coin, i.e., objectification of "the other" fashioned to appeal to straight males or at the least, not appear threatening.

[pnwmom]

76. Yes -- in the TV world, gay men have to be demonstrated to not be a threat to straight men.

Maybe that's part of why the writers often give them those put-down lines.

Look how the gay character treats women! And he gets away with it! He obviously can't really like them . . .

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. I just mentioned this downthread... The very worst offender lately is Tori Spelling.

[pnwmom]

75. Yes. This is another side to the same kind of thing. n/t

[pnwmom]

16. I don't think the author was at all suggesting that all or even most gay men do this.

But it does exist. Scarlet Johansson gets groped in public by a gay man -- while receiving a major award -- and we're all supposed to laugh?

So this gay writer speaks out on her behalf, and for other women like her. Good for him.

[Aerows]

28. I wish we had a subtle

"fucked up shit going on in this thread" button that only gay people would recognize.

Forgot

[xchrom]

30. oh that button has been pushed -- and the noise it set off was god awful. nt

[Aerows]

32. I just happened to be in the vicinity of it

and my ears are still ringing.

[pnwmom]

31. We could also use

a "lot of denial going on" button.

For those who think it is possible that gay men, just like straight men, can treat women in an objectifying manner, and that they shouldn't get a free pass when they do.

[Aerows]

35. Free Pass

[pnwmom]

63. I made it abundantly clear that I was talking about a certain group

and that a certain group of straight men do the same thing, but even that is just too much for a denialist to bear.

[theHandpuppet]

39. Let me extrapolate a bit on my earlier post

Like I had said, in my younger years I did have many experiences like the ones you describe. When I was young and first socializing the scene, the kind of language used by some gay men towards women was just terrible. As bad or worse than anything I encountered years later working in an almost all-male environs in a rough, blue collar job where demeaning women was a favorite pastime.
In the 70's I was still making my way in the LGBT community, having come from a rural area and feeling totally lost. I was so insecure at that time that from fear of being ostracized I didn't speak up when I should have and I was way too desperate to rock the boat. Have to admit it did have a profound affect on me though, both the vulgar, demeaning language (the likes of which I honestly had never before encountered) and the fact that I didn't speak up when I should have. I rue that to this day.
I hope and believe times have changed. My partner and I are homebodies living once again in a rural area so I can't really say that I am a proper judge on to what degree that still goes on. I do know that the GBT men I have encountered here on DU are incredibly supportive and progressive. We've all changed over the years, individually and as a culture, men and women, straight and LGBT.

[pnwmom]

69. Thank you very much for your honesty. I grew up in the period you are describing

and my dad came out in the early 80's, after I was an adult. That's when I began to put the puzzle pieces together about all the mixed messages I'd been getting from my "feminist" father who would say hurtful things about girls and women.

For example, a straight father of that era might not have wanted his daughter to wear a mini-skirt. My dad would have had zero problem with that, except he didn't think my legs were perfect enough. So when I wore one (not as short as my sister's, but short for me) he simply told me my legs looked like a truck-drivers' -- and that was the end of the skirt for me. I was very tall and actually very thin (20 or 30 pounds below the norms on the charts) but I had no idea because my father wanted me to have a model's long legged proportions and he didn't care for muscular thighs. (Our family watched Miss Universe and Miss America, and based on that experience, I grew up thinking men cared about how women's ankles looked!)

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. Women treat women in an objectifying manner. Just because some do, doesn't mean all do.

This article was a lesson in applying stereotypes.

[pnwmom]

72. The article didn't say that all gay men do this. The writer is only pointing out

that when it is done, it isn't okay because the person objectifying women is gay.

Why is it okay for the Will and Grace gay characters to make snarky comments about Grace's body? Just because the other female so-called friend might, too? It's not nice or cute when any of them do it, IMO.

[Egnever]

33. interesting article

The comment section was interesting reading as well. Thanks for posting it.

[Warpy]

34. Pre Stonewall, the female friend was very useful at office parties

and to throw parents who were paying the college tab off the scent. I know because I was that female friend. They also descended en masse a few times just to take me out to dinner, I have to think they appreciated my big mouth because they sure didn't have any use for my body, something I found refreshing.

After Stonewall, the services were no longer particularly necessary. Office parties could be attended stag or with one's lover if the place was sane. Mom and Dad knew, so there was little difficulty there if they hadn't cut contact off.

So I ended up with friendships. There has always been an alliance between intelligent women and gay men, we have so much in common outside the bedroom. Gay men might no longer share our oppression as they once did, so some of the alliance is a little frayed as they've gotten male entitlement for the first time. However, it's still there.

It's going to take more than macho posturing to destroy it completely.

At the party in the article, I'd have smacked him back. Just a love tap.

[redqueen]

36. This article reminded me of one I'd seen on facebook.

I did a search and it was just over a year ago:
http://www.wbez.org/blogs/nico-lang/2013-01/gay-male-misogyny-goes-viral-college-humor-and-war-women%E2%80%99s-bodies-104791

[Nolimit]

40. He gave this as an example.

[Jesus Malverde]

41. One thing to remember

There's no singular gay male culture

Those that fail to acknowledge the diversity of a group (only defined by it's sexual orientation) are themselves blinded by stereotypes.

To anyone just coming out of the closet and hoping to get his bearings in the gay male community, the attitude towards women is simple:

To assume that those that come out, then adopt a particular outlook shows the cliche's this author promotes and lives.

This is vile "analysis", built on a foundation of stereotypes.

[William769]

42. You are absolutely correct.

But the subliminal message here is clear, just look at who posted what in this thread. Utterly disgusting (but I guess they want the wars of 2012 here again).

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Ooops, you did it again....

I really need to find a good "snickering" smiley!

+1

[William769]

52. Will this do?

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Love it!!!

Consider it stolen!

[redqueen]

51. Who is "they" and what did they post?

I can only see less than half the thread due to ignores, not sure if you're talking about my post or someone else's.

I thought the link I posted was relevant.

[theHandpuppet]

43. Yes, this kind of discussion must arise from personal, first-hand experiences

And each person's life experiences and perspectives are going to be unique. Otherwise, as you said, there's a real danger of stereotyping.

[joeybee12]

50. I loved the term ...sub-culture...makes us gays sound even

more sinister...I didn't realize how evil we were and how much we should be hated! How did I NOT know that?

[redqueen]

54. What? 'Sub culture' is just a sociological term.

Cosplayers, goths, hip hop fans, gamers... its just a culture within the larger culture.

[joeybee12]

56. And the words "dirty secrets" are benign, too, I suppose

[redqueen]

57. Obviously that refers to the misogyny. As in a bad thing.

A bad thing that doesn't get talked about / called out that often - a dirty secret.

[closeupready]

45. Straight men are more misogynistic than gay men, IMO.

Just because they engage in sexual intercourse with women doesn't let them off the hook.

Alternatively, straight men are certainly no less misogynistic than gay men, in general.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Your post is totally confusing.

But then, I'm bad at math.

[Fumesucker]

67. -1

[Warren DeMontague]

71. *

√ -1

[Bucky]

65. There's a wide variety of stupid, crass, and mean out there. It's not demographically limited.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. The writer writes about stereotype and not friendship - that's not a friendship.

Just like Tori Spelling collecting a group of "gay boys" (her words) because she loves the for their gossip(stereotype) and fashion sense (stereotype), it isn't the norm.

I have several male (note I said male-not gay male) friends. None of them ever objectify me or other women... they simply wouldn't be my friend then.

[BainsBane]

61. This was alerted on

and survived 0-6. I posted this in HOF a couple of days ago but changed the title because I knew some would be furious that anyone dared to write or post such a thing. The fact is no group of people is immune from misogyny or any other kind of bigotry. A gay man can be sexist, a white woman can be racist, and an African American can be homophobic. When we exist in a culture that privileges some over others, all of us absorb messages that elevate wealth, whiteness, maleness, and heterosexuality over other identities. The question is whether we choose to examine those messages and confront them, or deny them as part of an effort to maintain our own privilege above others. Some of the worst verbal expressions of bigotry are on the internet, so why not use the web to challenge some of those ideas?

[Bucky]

64. I had a friend once refer to me as his "fag stag".

I suggested he try to term "friend" instead. He took the hint, cause the Buckaroo don't hang out with no idiots.

[dsc]

74. news flash people who are permitted to behave badly, behave badly

The writer of this piece has friends who behave badly and who he evidently lets behave badly and then he is shocked when they behave badly. If he doesn't want the men he hangs with to treat women like that, then he should tell them in no uncertain terms to knock it off and if they don't he should stop being in their lives. I am trying to imagine if such a piece had been written about any other subset of men, say Jewish or Muslim or Hispanic or African American just how long it would last. I am guessing not very long. The fact is this man posted a piece about bad gay men behaving badly. He witnessed much of the behavior and did nothing effective to stop it. And somehow this is the fault of all gay men.

[uppityperson]

77. wtf is "THE" gay male subculture? And there are asshole in every group. Do not stereotype and group

every gay and into one subculture. Seriously, wtf?

"ism"s exist all over but seriously, wtf is "the gay male subculture" of which you hit and run post of?