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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums2 inches of snow is nothing. Atlanta should be ashamed
This may be difficult for many of you to comprehend, but 2" of snow QUICKLY turned into 1" of solid ice. THAT is what the problem was yesterday and continuing into today and probably into tomorrow. Many rural areas HAVE NO SNOW CLEARING EQUIPMENT. The first car down the road clears the path.
Atlanta has 24 sand trucks and 40 snow plows. That is a sub-station in many northern cities. In Atlanta, IT IS WHAT THE CITY HAS!
The problem is that when the snow fell, it melted and was condensed by the large number of cars/trucks on the road. The gridlock resulted from no one being able to navigate on solid ICE! It was like trying to run an obstacle course on a hockey rink.
Stop making fun of Atlanta. ANY of you, given driving on solid ice, would have fared no better.
Check out the pictures, www.ajc.com, and tell me where the snow is on the roads. All I see is ice.
I don't live there, but I used to. I have family there. I was up all night worried sick until they were all home.
Knock off the "Atlanta should be prepared" BS. They were, and are, as prepared as any SOUTHERN city can be.
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mnhtnbb
(31,386 posts)
AllTooEasy
(1,260 posts)bashing the Governor of NJ(Christie) for not being prepared for a hurricane...which the media never did.
mnhtnbb
(31,386 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)At my eye appointment today two rethugs were doing their usual "Obama should be impeached" and when the news story about the snow in Atlanta came on they were all about how the south could not be expected to be prepared for this kind of weather ...until a picture of the Mayor was shown. By the end of the story they also wanted the Mayor to be impeached. It's hate is getting so obscene I hate to be in closed places with other people.
TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)The Mayor kept insisting that he was not responsible for the interstates and highways on wnich cars were abandoned. That seemed to slow Mika down a little bit. But they were ready to draw blood....
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Until Tuesday morning. A few were closed, others were set for "Early Release" after receiving the storm warning dated that morning, 3:39am. I am thinking the school districts were all acting with the same information.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts).... We don't even bother to plow most roads around here. 2" is not dangerous as long as no freezing rain is involved, and even the smallest of driving precautions are taken.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I agree that driving on ice is no joke, but packed snow isn't a big deal.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)All the news stores just mention the snow. I'm surprised none of the stories I'd read mentioned ice. That would change the calculus some.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)
Abq_Sarah
(2,883 posts)This is typical.
When snow falls in the afternoon when it's at or above freezing in areas like Atlanta, it doesn't take long for the commuters to turn that snow into slush or water. There isn't enough time for the water to burn off before the temps drop below freezing because the traffic isn't moving fast enough. What you end up with are streets that have become sheets of ice. Tractor Trailer rigs (professional drivers) start jackknifing on the interstates and cars are all over the road. If the roads had just been snowpacked, the results of that measly 2" would have been a lot different.
I've lived all over the country, including Atlanta and the Rocky mountains and I'd take a 6" snowfall over black ice any day of the week.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but here, south of Atlanta on the Gulf Coast we had freezing rain - hard little balls of ice that compacted to form more ice, and it is in a layer of about 2 inches. It isn't snow - it's ice.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Those of us in central eastern NC got a couple inches of freezing rain then a little dabble of snow on top. It makes the snow itself slippery, unless just snow, which isn't all that big of a deal to drive on. Ice is a big huge deal to drive on. I would bet that driving on ice is dangerous for anyone no matter where they are from.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but when you step on it, it's slippery as hell. I stepped into a pile of this "snow" in the backyard, and it isn't snow. It shatters in a big sheet.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)It is wet snow on top and snow freezing underneath and the entire thing is sitting on top of a thick layer of ice.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Stay safe and warm, my friend. We are in for another cold one.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)35 tomorrow and mostly sunny. That sun will melt the top layer of snow away, then tomorrow night, it goes back down to 13 and it will refreeze. Friday it will be 53 daytime and 24 night time. It is going to be 69 degrees on Sunday though and it was 69 degrees the day before we got all this freezing rain, sleet, and then a light dusting of snow.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)on the Gulf Coast. It hovered at about 32 in full sunlight. That's as high as it got here, and the beach is 5 minutes away. It never did melt all of the ice. There are still patches of it standing everywhere. If we don't get any precipitation, hopefully the sun will get rid of this mess.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Just because it isn't clear in appearance doesn't make it not ice and just as slick. Even ice skating rinks have "white" ice. Drive over 2 inches of snow once then it may refreeze into ice but at least it's lumpy ice from the tire tracks that gives you a little traction. Drive over it continuously and the lumps from tire tracks are erased, so when it refreezes it's a sheet of white ice. The only difference between white ice (that's the most common from snow and what we generally call "ice"
and black ice is that black ice you can't tell by looking at it whether it's ice or just wet pavement... and what makes it so dangerous is that it looks deceptively like wet pavement rather than CLEAR ice (that's why it's called "black" - because it's CLEAR thin ice so that you can see the black pavement beneath it).
I don't know why anyone is arguing that white ice isn't ice but snow. Compacted snow BECOMES ice and just as slick as clear ice just as the frost build up in your freezer IS ice and acts like ice even though it's white. Clear ice can even be less slick than white compacted snow ice as long as it's lumpy so you get some traction.
Right now all that Atlanta can do other than hope for weather warm enough to melt it without refreezing is to dump cinders or sand all over it to give some traction. Either that or a ton of salt to melt it and keep it from refreezing.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Some areas got freezing rain first then a light dusting of snow later in the night. That's what my area here in NC got. There is a thick layer of ice under a light dusting of snow. It's not even much snow. It's mostly ice. That's how it is in the south. Our temperatures make it so that we usually get more ice than snow. I guess you just have to live here and know what our temperatures are light from day to night. For the record, it was 69 degrees in my hometown day before yesterday. We got about 4 inches of snow on top of a couple inches of ice. The ice layer makes the snow layer slippery. I've driven in plain snow. That's not a big deal. Ice is what we usually end up with underneath a light dusting of snow. That's why we close schools and all that stuff.
proReality
(1,628 posts)when it first hits the pavement. It begins to chill the road surface, freezes and turns into a crystallized layer. At times all you see is ice, but if the snow keeps coming down there is a layer of slick ice beneath a small amount of snow. It's dangerous and can't be driven on the same way it can in the north.
That's hard for northerners to understand till they've experienced it. I know because I'm a transplanted northerner--and the first time I laughingly drove over a half inch of snow turned out to be the last lesson I needed on the subject.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It looks like snow, but when you step on it, it shatters in a sheet.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I would not even have gone out in the Atlanta area, whereas in the North I drove all the time on snow and I do know how to do it and it doesn't frighten me.
But those warm roads combined with quite low air temps are a killer, because you get a layer of ice and then often a thin layer of fluffy snow on top, and you have no traction. It's like a water slide - esp. if you get about a half or 3/4 of an inch of fluffy snow on top of the ice layer, which wads up in everybody's tires and then they just careen all over. In normal snow you have some traction, but in those conditions you have none.
And it's true that many area residents aren't used to driving on snow, but if you grabbed a bunch of midwesterners and put them on the roads in those conditions you would have a similar result.
Once, and only once, I got caught out in the NE, and it was a freak October snowstorm with similar conditions. The weather forecast wasn't accurate, the ground was warm and the snow fell very thickly, and there were cars and trucks all over in a truly unique havoc. Cop cars were sliding out, trucks were sliding out and many people gave up and just pulled over. Then because there were leaves on the trees branches and trees started to fall, and words cannot describe the dangerous mess.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)for corroborating.
The uninformed are those who think winter storm conditions in the south are the same as in the north. Very different.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The difference is that we have this weather routinely in the winter, so we have enough plows to remove the snow and plenty of cinders and salt to dump on it it melt it so it has a chance to dry out leaving a clean pavement. But the basic conditions are the same exact thing up here as anywhere else... we just normally have the means to deal with it since this is common weather up here during the winter.
I've lived here my whole life. Only an idiot walks or drives on anything that "appears" as nothing but snow or wet pavement on a road or sidewalk. Growing up here you learn when you're a little kid that that which looks like nothing but snow may land you painfully on your back. Yet we still have our share of dipshits on the roads here even though they grew up here and know damn well that white or wet looking crap on the road may or may not be ice that might land them on their butt or fling their car into a tree. Transplanted folk I can understand not knowing what they're dealing with but not anyone that's spent even one snowfall here never mind their whole life, yet we still got 'em.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...it turns into a substance meteorologists call water. This water refreezes, and turns treacherous.
Atlanta as a city may have been woefully underprepared, and our drivers relative amateurs when it comes to navigating snow and ice, but let's acknowledge that it also has a bit of an added challenge not intuitive to northerners.
I spent five hours Tuesday on a fourteen-mile trip home. Traffic headed out of Atlanta going my way proceeded fairly well, for the most part (cross streets were nightmares, but my tires didn't slip or slide at all), but the sparse inbound traffic? Cars stuck near the bottom of hills along the whole route. I was luckier than many, and I suspect it's because the melted snow didn't have much chance to freeze again in the heavier outbound traffic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)It never snows. Ask us about hurricanes? We know how to prepare. Ask us about ice storms? *clueless looks*.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)and to only expect a "light dusting"
And they use sand, not salt.
there are just a few sand trucks, mostly for the metro city area.
Alabama has 4 cities,has the same problem.
The rest of the state is rural, and we do not have sand trucks around here.
Sadly, 5 people died across the state.
We got all day ice pellets, in below 30 temps, then snow flurries in even colder temps, which turned our whole county into a block of ice.
everything closed down, which I think is the smartest way to deal with it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)have had all that craziness on the highway.
This is something that highway/department of transportation types in the warmer climates need to learn--I'll bet their counterparts in the north would be happy to teach them a lesson or two. I think the folks in northern Maine have that down best of all--they can do an awful lot for not too much money, and they almost never miss a beat.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)The rural area I grew up in had miles and miles of roads that go any which way in wooded areas and a lot of people don't even live anywhere close to town. 30 minutes by car just to get to a grocery store. People are always building new pockets of communities in the middle of no where and people don't know where all of them are. When you get to town everything is so spread out that it was hard to navigate in it too well. Communities are NOT laid out like how northerners live. Usually there are huge land masses between each town. Up north where I live the towns run together like one huge town that never ends.
I can walk to a grocery store up here, and to several restaurants. Because of that, I consider that to mean that I live in a city, even though other people that live here don't. People down south have acres upon acres of land with little houses dug in for privacy while northerners can look at each other's TVs by looking left or right in their own homes.
Not to mention how perfectly flat the north seems to be up here. Where I used to live, everywhere were hills and the roads twisted and turned all around. Up north everything seems to be organized by blocks and everyone knows where everything is, more or less. It just ain't that way down south. (Atlanta isn't too far from where I lived.)
The problem in Atlanta was that they didn't think that snow would hit them and they didn't advise people to stay home. That's pretty much that.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)The I-95 corridor is heavily populated, but move away and communities spread out. Eventually it gets very rural in upper New England.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It is a city with highways.
they don't need to do it all, they just need to do the major roads. No reason to strand cars on the interstate!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Salting and sanding don't help in this situation. The ground is too warm, so too much of the snow melts for sand/salt to handle it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You don't think we've had crazy temperature fluctuations in the northeast this year? And in past years? It's been insane. The pre-treaters prevent the ice from bonding to the pavement, irrespective of temperature.
Pre-treat those roads. The southern cities need to keep this shit on hand, and get busy well ahead of a storm. VA has it figured out, they need to get the spirit even further south. I'd take this as a "lesson learned."
jeff47
(26,549 posts)We're talking about lots more than sheets of ice. More like solid 2" block over every single square foot of road.
And again, the melt means you wash away the salt, and still get ice.
Ground is less responsive than air. A couple 60 degree days will not thaw the ground.
Btw, I recently moved from upstate NY. I assure you I'm extremely familiar with snow, driving in it, ice caused by it. Lake effect snow is extremely impressive.
And Northerners "needed" to build to withstand hurricanes before Sandy. Clearly we should be chewing them out for not doing so.
VA regularly gets snow. GA does not. This event will not repeat for many years. It's dumb to spend a ton of money for the equipment to handle such a rare situation. The proper way for Atlanta to handle this was to close the schools and have people hunker down for a few days.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The chemicals find their way into the roadbed, and they form a barrier between the road and the ice. The ice does not freeze, you see.
And you don't need "special" equipment. No one is using their farming equipment at this time of year--a lot of that can be converted, easily, to do the job of broadcasting both wet and dry pretreaters, if they want to contract out some of that work. Most DOTs have trucks that can broadcast liquids, like water or oil, to tamp down dust, and these can be converted to broadcast a liquid pre-treater that will keep the ice from binding to the road. Dump trucks can be used to gradually spread sand and dirt or dry pre-treatment mixes --the large "dirt dump" is useful on areas where there is a lot of buildup and the pretreaters didn't get there in time. It can be done. It just takes a bit of will.
There is a protocol that must be followed IF a city wants to keep operating--it's that simple. The southern communities have a choice, and it IS a choice: they can make the decision to tell everyone to go home ahead of the storm, and shelter in place until the weather event passes (and I will emphasize, as you noted, that there is nothing wrong with that--it might be more economical at the end of the day), or, if they want to keep everything up and running, they need to get the spirit and learn how to compensate for a weather event like this. It seems to me like they didn't do enough of anything--they just kinda hoped for the best, and it don't work that way....
Even if they decided to take the "cheap route," and tell everyone to stay home, they need to keep interstates open and paths to hospitals. They should learn how to pretreat their roads and to maintain them in storm conditions, even if they are only doing this for a bare minimum of thoroughfares.
I have to challenge your assertion that northerners do not know how to build to withstand hurricanes. The "northeaster" is a common storm up this way--we blow them off like they're nuttin'. And we've had our share of hurricanes down the years which inform our building practices. My family has a little joint on the Cape, hand built by an ancestor, that has been there for nearly a hundred years--and hurricane after hurricane has passed over it because it's built small and sturdy. Sure, some cheap ass fools may not build to suit conditions, wanting the McMansion, crossing their fingers, paying out the ass for insurance or hoping for the best, but plenty of buildings that are a century or two old still stand in the northeast with no issues.
If you're looking at the mid-Atlantic freak show on the (corrupt) New Jersey shore, and in Far Rockaway and expecting to find some equivalence to similar weather events in the south, your argument is just not supported.
I think, if you look at hurricane damage in the northeast compared to the south (Andrew, anyone? Charleston, SC? Helloooo--KATRINA?) that the south has seen WAY much more damage over the decades--hell, the centuries (Galveston, e.g.) on that score. They hold the record for expense when it comes to weather damage. And that's just hurricanes--never mind tornados. Why isn't everyone living in an earthen cave in the tornado corridor, I have to wonder?
VA was not always well prepared for winter events; their schooling came just a few decades ago--I remember, a few months after coming from overseas to DC in the Clinton years, I got a welcome three days off work for such a small amount of snow it was laughable. The news was blaring that the seat of government was (gasp) SHUT DOWN!!!!!! I had a front wheel drive compact car at the time, and after I shovelled out, I went out to the "video store" and the grocery store to buy snacks and beverages (why waste an opportunity for a house party?) and then I went and got some firewood in case the heat went out. I passed idiots--and there's no other way to describe them, they were idiots--in ditches and up against phone poles in their fancy four wheel drive vehicles, who believed that because they had "four wheel drive" that the laws of phsyics didn't apply. They learned a lot of lessons from that event.
The south is just going to have to learn a few lessons, too. Tell folks to stay home. Or pretreat those roads. Or both. Watch the weather reports like hawks. Err on the side of caution. Tell people to slow down and drive ahead of themselves--it's as simple as that. More severe weather, of the type that I remember as a kid, is back in style, it would appear.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)Our freeways were pretreated.
Our schools were closed. People stayed home.
I.think the storm was meant to come more towards our way.
Houston missed a big one.
Houston had just had freezing rain on Friday, we were ready.
We have lots of streets that could not have been pretreated. We are a big city.
Our neighborhoods would have been locked down due to ice.
Atlanta could have been Houston.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)No. The chemicals form a coating on top of the surface of the road. The snow falls on the road, and melts. That dissolves the salt into the water. Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than regular water, so instead of freezing on the surface it can run off.
And run off is the problem here.
If too much snow melts, it washes away the salt water and you're left with nice, clear, freeze-at-32 water. Just like you can't use salt on the road if the storm is rain-that-changes-to-snow. The rain washes away the salt before it can prevent freezing.
Really. Snowplows are standard equipment on trucks now?
And a laundry list of things that can be converted to spread salt doesn't make those conversions magically free. Paying for that conversion, and waiting the days for it to happen, means that you've spent a large pile of money for equipment that's ready just after the ice has melted.
In Atlanta's case, the weather report was off by a few hours. They were supposed to get a light dusting after rush hour.
The mayor acted on the situation, but the suburb, county and state officials did not. They gambled and lost. But since Atlanta's the famous part, they'll be able to blame it on the black guy (Atlanta's mayor is African-American).
Still doesn't fix it when the salt washes off the road.
The point of bringing up hurricanes is there's a calculated cost-benefit analysis when dealing with natural disasters. California homes are built to withstand very, very strong earthquakes. Missouri homes are not, because strong earthquakes are very rare - yet Missouri had the strongest earthquake ever recorded in the lower 48.
Why? It costs 3 metric fuckloads more money to build the house "California-style" (We actually had trouble getting the concrete to flow properly into the foundation forms because there's so much steel). With earthquakes so rare in Missouri, it's much cheaper to just let the buildings collapse once every 5000 years.
Similarly, you don't have the level of hurricane straps and anti-flooding features in the Northeast that you have in the Southeast because hurricanes are rarer.
Roofs in the North are built to hold up much heavier loads that roofs in the South - the Northerners have to worry about snow load, the Southerners don't.
This kind of snow event in the South is rare enough that there is no need to invest in the equipment, maintenance, personnel and training to handle it. It's much, much cheaper for everyone just to shut down the city for 3 days every few decades. Including all the businesses that have to shut down because of it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Equipment doesn't have to be modified,it just has to be cleaned. This is not all that difficult..it just requires a learning curve.
This is likely to happen more frequently in future.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)In some areas, it was up to 8 inches thick. It fell as ice pellets, not snow, and there are no resources for pre-treating. The salt and sand were used up very quickly on bridges and overpasses, with no effect whatsoever.
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MADem
(135,425 posts)A "dusting." They'd tell ya to "slow down and watch for icy patches" but that would be that. I don't have a four wheel drive, I have a five speed standard shift subcompact that is almost 30 years old. It's as much knowing how to drive in slippery conditions as anything else. I drove that car from northern Maine to MA in a raging blizzard--took me awhile, but it's all a matter of respecting Mother Nature.
You have to pretreat those roads BEFORE the snow falls, not while, not after. Ice will not bind to the road if you pretreat, it will require much lower temperatures to freeze, and the action of the wheels of the vehicles upon the pavement will keep it moving around. You'll never get the "ice rink" effect, but you absolutely HAVE to pretreat. Sand added in the areas where water is likely to pool puts enough grit on the road to maintain traction.
It's why the DoT has to watch the weather and err on the side of caution. It's also why they should have a warehouse full of enough pretreating chemicals -- they are shelf stable, so no worries--to treat all the major roads and emergency routes so that they can survive at least one medium to large storm, even if they only get an event like this every three years or less. Either that, or they should simply be prepared to tell people to stay home and lock down their communities when stuff like this happens.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)It was solid ice, and it was in a volume that occurs once in 3 decades, not years. Had it fallen in the form of snow, it would have probably been at least 2 feet deep. The county and state services do not have the equipment or manpower to deal with this sort of storm, so it isn't just a matter of having enough salt and chemicals for pre-treating. ALL of the city, county and local state road crews were busy 24 hours a day cutting and removing fallen trees, for days afterward. It didn't shut the area down completely (except for highway 75, which was closed for 3 days because of jack-knifed trucks), but it made for very slow going for quite some time.
A number of northerners were stunned at the spectacle, and some of them remarked that they would never again criticize the driving ability of southerners. A winter storm up north, is not the same as one down south, as those who have experienced both, understand.
I was pleasantly surprised by the performance of my Impala LTZ, with its front-drive, traction control and anti-lock brakes, which got me everywhere I needed to go, but those with rear-wheel drive were, for the most part, stuck at home or had to ride with someone else.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This IS done in the northeast without "specialized" equipment, as I have said.
Oil roads are a fixture in the south--you use the spreaders that you use to broadcast oil. You can use water broadcasters that are used to clean roads. You can use fertilizer broadcasters for the dry stuff. You can take a dump truck, fill it chock-a-block full of dry pretreater, and angle it gradually so that as you drive, the stuff dumps out the back (this is a typical double-use of equipment up this way).
The idea that anyone would need "special" equipment to mitigate this storm is just not true.
Northerners were stunned more likely because they've never thought about the work of the highway departments to pre-treat the roads. It's just such a routine thing that no one appreciates it, no one notices it, no one even sees it or thinks about it. I have a friend in the business, who is a contractor -- not a public employee, a "plus up" for the Big Storms-- so I am probably more aware of it than the average person. Typically, roads are pretreated when most people are in their beds and highways are relatively clear of traffic.
I have experienced northern and southern storms, and the south CAN do better. It's not rocket science--it's just a little bit of advanced planning and extra work, and that extra work has to be done before, during and after the storm. The communities in the south should have a rainy day (or snowy day) fund to pay for a storm or two each year, and roll the money over if they don't spend it.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)It isn't just a matter of planning and extra work. More equipment like dump trucks and fertilizer broadcasters would also be needed for widespread use for severe winter storm preparation. Road work is done periodically and in limited areas. Preparing miles and miles of roads and bridges, over a widespread area, in a short period of time, would clearly require a LOT more equipment, which isn't politically feasible, because it would be considered wasteful by the taxpayers, as these storms occur very rarely.
I can't 'compete' with you right now, because I'm off to work.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If they have shortfalls, they can contract with farmers who aren't using their equipment in the winter months. They can also contract with --dare I say--building contractors, who have this sort of stuff on hand as a matter of routine (and who won't be using it during a snowstorm). Landscapers also have dump trucks up the ying yang. You can even use a garbage truck in a pinch to do this kind of work. It's a simple matter of putting out the word and letting people know--they'll get more people willing to make a nice payday than they'll ever use.
It's lack of creativity, and a lack of motivation, and a lack of planning-- not lack of material, that is at issue here.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)I do this for a living in NE. That Magnesium is powerful stuff. I have seen it melt 5 inches of solid ice pack. It's liquid form can be strayed up to 2 days in advance. It bonds to the road and prevents the ice from adhering to the pavement. As to not having salt on hand. There are numerous products including the Calcium, Magnesium, and Hop's brine that can be sprayed on the sand and it then has a dual purpose ice melt and road grip. A state of emergency should have been called so schools were closed, and employers are mandated to let employees go. Staggering departure times should have been used as well.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Otherwise, you wouldn't need the pre-emptive claim, followed by a dismissive post. 
In Maine, 2" of snow is a dusting. But we have studded snow tires, and lots of practice driving in snow.
And ice is taken very seriously, with the roads pre-plowed, salted and sanded in advance and right through the storm.
They had ice, not snow. It fell as snow, melted on the warm ground and then froze into ice. The roads weren't pre-salted and pre-sanded. All it took was a jack-knifed truck, or a couple stuck cars, and everybody behind them was trapped.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)As I said, it struck me as odd. Like you, I'm pretty used to snow (though we don't get so much that we need studded tires), so it struck me as odd that such a small amount would cause such pandemonium.
BTW, I haven't been going around making fun of Georgians. Whatever the circumstances, it sounds like they had a rough go of it.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)So I've lived in freezing rain zones and inside the snow belt.
I'll take the snow (and the snow belt) over ice any day of the week. There is simply not a damn thing you can do on ice without chains. But you can't leave chains on for the winter on the off chance of a freak storm.
And when you get on those large highways with the semis, all it takes is for one of them to jacknife, and everything becomes a logjammed clusterfuck.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Here in Washington, most paved roads are beveled at something like a 7-degree angle. Not steep enough to feel while driving, but enough that water - including snowmelt - runs off.
In the south, roads are flat, smooth paving. So two inches of snow churned to slush by tires and exhaust doesn't slough off the road. It stays there, and re-freezes.And gets packed down by the tires.
Further, the road placement in the south is generally pretty bad - Atlanta's an exceptional case of this. It seems that it was designed to create traffic jams, even away from city centers.
As for precautions, that's easy enough when it's something you have to deal with fairly regularly. But when the deep south gets even this much snow, it triggers more of an "oh shit what the hell?" response. sort of like a flash flood in Tuscon would cause. Plus the problem that even people who do have their head on straight have to deal with people who don't, in conditions that create an even worsesituation.
If your locale is anything like mine, you also have response infrastructure in place - sanders, plows, graters, and on the traveler's side, regular access to chains and studs for the tires. That is rather more limited in the south.
It's not a one-size-fits-all situation.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)What fell kind of looks like snow, but it's really little hard balls of ice that fell on the ground, compacted, and formed sheets of "snow-looking" ice. It's like a bunch of hail that formed into layers.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That clogs up our roads, too. It doesn't havethe decency to melt without salt being involved.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I tried to take the trash out, and needn't have bothered. The garbage trucks aren't dumb enough to come out in this mess. It's slick as snot, even on grass, and it appears to be lovely, soft snow. It isn't. You step on it and your foot just causes a break that spreads out like glass, even on the lawn. It's thick, too.
paleotn
(17,912 posts).... Nasty stuff, sleet. We're well acquainted with it here in western NC.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Then it dropped into the upper teens, low twenties. And has stayed that way.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)It looked like there was 3 inches of snow on the ground, but really it was ice.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)most of the Atlanta metro area that's hardest-hit by this? Thirty years ago it was open countryside, farms and fields and orchards. In the decades since say the early '90's, there have been hundreds of subdivisions built. Back in the '90's you could drive in the then-relatively-rural outer counties and see subdivision after subdivision of new-built houses, all identical, standing empty and waiting for buyers. At this point in the '90's? Metro Atlanta was the fastest growing human settlement in history, in terms of acreage being used for housing expansion. But the infrastructure didn't keep up. The development is concentrated along the Interstates. Hundreds of thousands of people commute into Atlanta every day for work. Some areas have such a concentration of commuter suburbs that they create effective choke points because of the volume of traffic joining the highways or queuing to get off.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Good points.
I am reading a very good book about this phenom, and Atlanta is mentioned often as the way NOT to go.
"Happy City" by Charles Montgomery
http://www.amazon.com/Happy-City-Transforming-Through-Design/dp/0374168237
What is considered the happiest city on earth? Improbably, it just might be Bogotá, Colombia, where drug lords ruled, bicycles now roll, and pedestrians stroll in a city with a mayor committed to transforming his town’s image and its people’s lives. What’s the secret to his success? Not surprisingly, restricting traffic plays a huge part in Bogotá’s livability, but banning cars isn’t the be-all and end-all to urban bliss. As Montgomery illustrates through vibrant discussions of the physics, physiology, and psychology of urban, suburban, and exurban dwellers, multiple factors must coalesce before a city, large or small, can achieve perfection. All of which may become terribly muddled as climate change and resource depletion stress urban centers to an untenable tipping point. Touting extensive research tempered by anecdotal examples, Montgomery enumerates the mistakes made not only by the people who plan and govern cities but also by the people who live in them, and he offers cautious reassurance that it’s not too late to turn things around for all cities. --Carol Haggas
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)and also lived in Denver. I know something about snow and ice and driving. Here is what happened. The school children and the businesses closed at the same exact time. Everyone was in gridlock and it froze. My daughter has a beetle and I put her on a road that I knew. She inched along until she got to a gas station I knew at 11:00 PM. She started at 12:30 pm. She was safe. I nursed her there on telling how to navigate ice.
The only thing that actually works in ice are chains. No one and I mean no one can really handle ice. So you should really shut up before you know what happened.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)The snow immediately turns into ice. The ground temp in Atlanta was warm enough to melt the snow, which immediately refroze. Then some more snow fell on the ice, and at that point it's literally a skating rink, with a layer of ice and in many places a layer of snow on top of the ice. The light fluffy snow packs into the car tires and the cars literally toboggan around.
Only salting the roads first can deal with the problem, and Atlanta just doesn't have the equipment to do that properly and probably would only use it once or twice in 20 years if it did, which makes it prohibitively expensive. The highs were in the 50s and 40s for the three days preceding the storm.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The "water sprayer" type trucks that they use; you can even use fertilizer spreaders. They have all sorts of different treatment protocols; I think what those guys need to do is find ways to use existing equipment to do these jobs in emergency situations, not try to buy specialty equipment that they won't use. They also have to figure out which roads are "must treat." Anything enroute to a hospital or police station; main roads, etc., needs some love. Neighborhoods may just have to wait to thaw out.
They also need to resign themselves to shutting down for a few days--they just don't have the capability to get every road down to bare pavement like states accustomed to this kind of thing can.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)that 2 inches of ice and snow is simply a small weather event that happens several times every winter to the states due east of Georgia. A few weeks ago my entire area woke up to several inches of solid ice covering everything. My town handled the problem with a few ford trucks towing spreaders filled with salt, sand and melt. No problems, everyone drove carefully and schools were opened late.
No one knew it was coming. It was supposed to be a dusting of snow. It's unbelievable to me that a state that even has the possibility of a snow storm, isn't prepared for one event. There's no shelf life for salt and sand.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I must say, though, that we're pikers next to NH, ME and VT, who rely to a greater extent on the ski-tourist dollar.
The DoTs of the southern states really should send a few reps up north to "watch and learn." It can't hurt and it will prevent debacles (and deaths) like what happened in this last event.
I have a couple of cousins south of HOT-lanta...they were SLEDDING the other day (idiots had a flexible flyer sled in their household goods, it was hung on the wall as a "work of ahhhhhhht"...bet they never thought they'd use it!). Wonder if they brought their ice skates and cross country skis, too?
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)But Atlanta proper wasn't forecast to get what it got until the wee hours of the morning, so they had people out when they shouldn't have been, in part because they don't have enough experience with this weather to know that you have to get up at 5 AM to make the decision on the schools.
And you are right that there is no way for them to cope with road clearance like a state that's used to this type of weather, although I have seen once an equivalent type of situation in a freak early snow in the NE, with warm temps, warm ground, a missed forecast and then rapidly dropping temps combined with heavy snow. Fortunately it was a weekend, so they didn't have the kids and all the regular traffic to contend with, but roads became impossible to navigate and the situation became very dangerous very rapidly. Because of the bad forecast they had to get the drivers and the trucks out on the roads to treat them, and there was about an 8 hour delay to normal response. If it had been a weekday I suspect there would have been a similar situation, because once the roads are blocked with vehicles that can't be moved, it impedes road treatment!
Atlanta does get some snow, but this was an atypical situation for several reasons, not least of which was that the roads were very warm and trace snow only was forecast. Had the evening forecast been correct, the havoc wouldn't have happened. If the roads hadn't been as warm, it wouldn't have glazed like that. If the air temps hadn't dropped so hard so fast, it would have melted and then the snow would have compacted with the underlying layer to give some traction. When I was living, working and commuting in the NE I've waited many times to let a little more snow fall for better driving conditions! It is very rare to get road conditions like they got in this week in Atlanta and other parts south anywhere at any time. Thankfully.
We've seen recently the pictures posted on DU of major pileups in areas like PA and Indiana, etc. It can happen anywhere if the roads aren't pretreated.
Sgent
(5,857 posts)the temps are often in the upper 20's or low 30's, so you have wet snow or even freezing rain. Atlanta doesn't get snow like northern cities, it gets ice.
I lived in IN and grew up in north Mississippi. Driving on 2-4 in of ice in MS was much worse than anything in IN.
jsr
(7,712 posts)It's not the snow that's the problem. It's freakin' ICE.
Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)nt
840high
(17,196 posts)Phentex
(16,334 posts)but yes. I agree. Large, HUGE numbers of cars on the roads.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Freezes, like driving on a hockey rink. It doesn't happen very often but being prepared means to stay home.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and no one has any idea how to drive in this mess, either.
phylny
(8,380 posts)I reached the hills in my neighborhood. I know how to drive in snow - I've lived in NY, NJ, PA, IN, and IL - but this was cold, icy snow - less than an inch and I had no traction whatsoever.
I need either 4-wheel drive or snow tires. Even then, it would have been challenging.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)you need a manual shift.
Veruca Salt
(921 posts)When it's iced and hasn't yet been salted and sanded... that's why I kept a set of tire chains in the trunk in case of emergencies. Bought them after sliding down a hill during an ice storm in MA where I and a number of other drivers got stuck until the sand truck came round. Then we all followed him up the hill.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)I said that in another post. I have a set of chains but it is for 14" wheels. I do need a new set for 15".
phylny
(8,380 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)that formed a 2" layer. It's slick as snot, and not like "snow". I stepped into the grass in my backyard, and it broke into a large pane of ice. Not snow.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)except once every few decades. I'm further south than Atlanta, and it's a freaking mess here.
AlinPA
(15,071 posts)vehicle had a hard time going a short distance to a store and the driver is a Midwesterner accustomed to driving in winter weather.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)else. We buy enough provisions to get us through to when we CAN drive out for stuff. That's not too hard to understand. We had a stock of food for this week that inlcuded dinners for every night, some stove, some oven. And a freezer with all kinds of stuff. We stocked up our canned goods. I had a crock pot, a pot on the stove dish and a couple of frozen entrees on hand. Works out really well...
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)That 30 inch storm sure kept me parked for two days.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)miss any meals, we were just suffering from Cabin Fever!
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)government offices, encouraged businesses to do same, etc. They didn't.
This happens periodically (I can remember 7 or 8 times in the last 50 years, plus deeper snows without ice and traffic snarls), and every dang time they say they've learned something from it.
Every time, the weather map shows cold temps, snow supposedly heading south of Atlanta, and it drifts north and everyone is caught because they went to work, school, in the morning.
Nowadays, where people can work from home, there is no excuse for this.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)Atlanta and the northern suburbs were only forecasted for 1" of snow. It changed quickly into something more, too late to keep people home.
Look at it this way, had Atlanta shut down, kept everyone home, and nothing happened, they'd be a laughing stock. Now, they're only mocked because they "weren't prepared".
The company I work for has an explicit policy that working from home is not allowed unless with manager approval. Kinda hard to get that on the day of the disaster.
ablamj
(333 posts)not everyone can afford a day off without pay
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)But, most of the folks who got caught were leaving early, so obviously businesses closed down. They could have done it a few hours earlier.
Abq_Sarah
(2,883 posts)When it became apparent that it wasn't going to be just a few flurries. Within an hour of the start of the snow, most people were trying to get home or to schools to pick up their kids.
Remember, the bulk of the storm was predicted to pass to the south of Atlanta and by the time the meteorologists realized the storm had shifted, people were already at work, kids were already at school.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)if this happened here in SoCal. Lawd have mercy!
Berlin Expat
(950 posts)San Diego, hell, it'd be like the end of the world.
I lived in the NW for 20 years, and we usually get some snow, but in the Portland, OR area, freezing rain and black ice are not unusual things. It's a pain in the butt when it happens, and when it did, I stayed home.
Heh.......now I live near the border of Poland, where winter isn't winter until you've had at least one meter [3 ft.] of snow.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)is a disaster.
redwitch
(14,944 posts)I wish the city had decided to err on the side of caution and declare state of emergency BEFORE anything fell. It wouldn't have hurt to keep the kids home and off the roads just in case.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)if icing is in the forecast and everybody except those who absolutely are essential and are driving in safety equipped vehicles should be allowed.
If there is a HINT of ice I stay home (I am retired)...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and we had a sheet of pure ice in the backyard this morning that was 2" thick. On the Gulf Coast! It "looks" like snow, but it isn't When you step on it, even when it is on the grass, it's slippery, hard and breaks into sheets. I discovered this attempting to take the trash out at 5:00am. I shouldn't have even bothered because the garbage trucks weren't dumb enough to go out on the roads.
At a glance, though, it looks like fluffy white snow, but in reality, small little balls of ice fell, so it's like a layer of hail all over the place that compacted.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but hopefully by the weekend.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)it's no worth it, really!
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Ours did not.
I don't blame them, since it has been freezing cold the entire day, and the town is lcked down,
but there is a part of me which remembers the old mailman adage
"thru sleet and snow and hail..." or however it goes.
Garbage didn't come, either. I don't blame them.
Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)It looked like snow, but was pure ice. I can relate to your experience taking out the garbage. I nearly busted my ass just walking out to check the mail...what a headache! We were shut-down for almost a week. The temperature wouldn't get above freezing and it stayed that way for days.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)is say there's 2 inches of snow forecast - leave your cars at home. 
Arkana
(24,347 posts)
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)No way prepared for any snow or ice....and drivers less so. I'm from Northern Illinois where we had winters and spent several years in little rock...where 4 inch snowfall would shut the city down for a week for good reason
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Out temperatures down here in the south fluctuate so much between above freezing and below freezing that we end up with a thick layer of ice under a light dusting of snow. Just snow would be no big deal, but that's not how it is for us when we do get snow. We end up with ice with a little snow on top. To those who ridicule us: Drive on ice and then come back and tell us we should be able to do it without problems. And no, hell no, we cannot afford to buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to clear ice for a weather event that may or may not happen once a year or even once every few years. Don't be ridiculous. Come down here and negotiate our "snow" then tell us how easy it is. It's freaking ice under a light layer of snow. That's what it is. Drive on that.
For the record, in my area of NC, this is the first snow we've had in 3 years. Not even so much as a light sprinkle of snow had fallen here before last night in 3 years. Sometimes, it is longer between snow/sleet/freezing rain/ice weather events.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 29, 2014, 08:37 PM - Edit history (1)
Armageddon!!!
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)He used to call and tell me about them closing schools for rain for the same reason. They would have long spells without any, and a very thin layer of oil would build up on the roads, and then when it rained it was slick as all get out.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Driving on ice is horrible anywhere.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We're slip sliding all over the road this week in Anchorage, due to abnormally high temperatures turning our roads into the ice capades. I should take a picture of my street and post it. I've seen about five accidents in the last couple of days. I just don't know how to post a picture from my iPad.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)different reason. You are having abnormally high temps, we are having abnormally low temps. We didn't get snow. We got precipitation at an abnormally low temperature, and it came down as ice balls, not snow. It then melted a bit because a few days ago it was in the 60's, coagulated, and formed a slippery frozen mess all over the place. My lawn is crunchy. It looks like it has fluffy snow on it, but it is some sort of weird, slippery shell of ice that shatters, and is about 2" thick.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)Nobody should make (too much) fun of the people, but the leaders deserve some ridicule and criticism.
The leaders in Atlanta area promised to be prepared for this. Should Atlanta be prepared for a foot of snow? Hell no. But Atlanta gets 2-3 inches of snow pretty frequently, and their leaders repeatedly promise to be ready the next time it hits. There were major failures in the planning before this event, and even though Nathan Deal threw the entire field of meteorology under the bus for this, it needs to be said that Georgia was unprepared on a governmental level. Traffic control was non-existent, schools and businesses were in session when they shouldn't have been, and the roads weren't treated at all.
Georgia doesn't need a million snow plows and a mountain of salt, but they do need to have enough to respond to occasional snow. Preparedness is important: it's why you have tornado shelters, smoke detectors, and yes, snow plows and salt.
Georgia also needs to spend some money and pave their roads. It's hell to drive through.
Tim4319
(3,077 posts)They were given a fair amount of warning. Governor Deal and Kasim Reed were on tv saying they did not have enough warning. There have been times where there were threats of inclimate weather and in no time schools were closed. But the governor and mayor were all on television throwing the National Weather Service under the bus.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)If they'd gone on television and said "Hey, in the South we don't usually get snow so we don't always know how to prepare. Sorry and hopefully we'll do better next time." then maybe I could live with it.
Instead the Governor blamed the National Weather Service, who had actually issued a Winter Storm Warning before the event anyway. It's amazing how quickly the entire weather community turned on him too, I've seen a lot of meteorologists blasting him in several venues today.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)I hope one of his opponents uses these clips in their ads. This is a big black eye for him!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If you are equipped for it.
It would be irresponsible for Atlanta to invest in the removal/sanding/deicing equipment necessary to shrug off that storm as if business as usual. Given the entire region is experiencing the same, there are no nearby resources to borrow from either.
So you wait it out. Stay off the roads. No shame in that.
We're much more likely to get it here in Seattle, and we are better equipped for it, and it STILL knocks us on our asses sometimes, generally speaking. A few people like me can get around in it, but most cannot. Again, no shame in it. Our biggest shitstorm was about 7 days in duration in the last 20 years. That's nothing. stay home. You don't spend millions preparing for a 7 day temporary condition that hits once every 20+ years.
Buy some chains/equipment for emergency services, and be done with it. Those can sit around for 2+ decades waiting for use, no problem.
We have better shit to spend money on.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)esp. if you have rear wheel drive, no snow tires, no chains...
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)People were trapped in dangerous situations ... whether one thinks they should have been equipped is irrelevant. People found themselves in dangerous and untenable situations.
My heart goes out to them.
Papagoose
(428 posts)It took me eight hours to get home from work yesterday - my usual trip is 39 miles at 45 minutes. With detours, I drove 108 miles on solid ice. I saw pretty snow on the roadside, but what I was driving on was sheer ice. I know how to drive in winter, and what I faced yesterday was some of the most difficult driving I've seen in my life.
We don't have the infrastructure in place here to deal with this, and I don't blame my government for that. It would be foolish to maintain a fleet of plows and salt trucks that might be used once or twice a year.
What I do take exception to is the dismissal of every school, government agency and business in the metro area at the same time. THAT is what caused the massive gridlock. I also take exception to our Governor going on TV and saying that this storm was unexpected and blaming the National Weather Service.
By the way...I am already hearing plenty of people here seriously blaming the President. But of course, he's to blame for everything bad that has ever happened.
840high
(17,196 posts)Papagoose
(428 posts)He is still quite insistent that the National Weather Service didn't predict this storm correctly, which is false.
I do feel the slightest twinge of sympathy for him (and other pols) though - if they had preemptively shut everything down yesterday morning, there wouldn't have been as much traffic, the major roads would have been treated - crisis averted. But then the prognosticators would have claimed the shutdown was for nothing.
In the end, it's nature - we can't beat it. We can just try to learn from it to try to avoid catastrophe in the future. We we? Probably not.
mc51tc
(219 posts)just a few years ago. It took days just to get the ice off the roof at Cowboy Stadium. Ice is bad anywhere. Snow is a different story all together. Ice is a headache in Chicago, Minneapolis/St. Paul and New York. So, Atlanta is no different to ice than anywhere else.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)"ANY of you, given driving on solid ice, would have fared no better. "
Swing and a miss, we do have some bad drivers up here, but in general we know how to drive on ice and keep our cars in shape to drive on snow and ice. The ground here is so cold that car exhaust will freeze on it and produce ice. Ground temps in GA above freezing so any ice made by people spinning their tires is melting as it forms.
Yes, shit happens, but they were not prepared for shit that can, does, and did happen. We get storms that actually will close roads as normal vehicles can not traverse the depth of the snow. I have never in my life heard of school children here having to spend the night on a school bus.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)our streets up here are solid ice from about the first of November until the end of April. They're clear and dry now, though, as this year is anything BUT normal.
I won't give the people in the south too much of a hard time, though. It's all what you're used to.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You are very correct, it's what you are used to. But given the Jet Stream disturbances of recent years, they better get themselves used to having spells of cold weather.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Here we don't know what to expect from year to year anymore. This winter is completely unlike last year, even down to what birds are at my bird feeder. I think everybody's going to have to be prepared for just about anything going forward.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)watching the news today and seeing how teachers/national guard/police all stepped up to get those kids safe places for the night made me kind of proud of them....even the ones stuck on roads were getting water and blankets delivered
here in Illinois the schools watch the forecast and call it early...this year we have used up our snowdays and we are on....act of God days...which means summer vacation will come a little later! but better safe than sorry
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Which skills would you use?
The gridlock was not caused by the ice on the roads.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)If the traffic was merely totally screwed up and the weather had no effect, then I have even less sympathy as they are not prepared for normal traffic.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Roads totally drivable. But with so many cars, people blocked intersections and ramps backed up. That's what gridlock is.
Later, with the roads jammed, the slush turned to ice. Then the fun started for people already on the roads.
Yes, be irritated by the lack of traffic planning. But don't claim you can drive any better in gridlock.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)We don't seem to run into traffic issues where school children can't get home and have to spend the night of their buses.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Just don't be fooled into thinking your inclement weather driving skills matter in gridlock.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Fukinsmol, MN, you have no conception of gridlock. Just like folks here in the south are puzzled by fucking cold ice storms that come down in the middle of the day.
Situations vary.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)I drive 56 miles per day across the 19th ranked most congested metro in North America. Atlanta is ranked 24th. I guess when you live in Bumfukistan, GA, you just don't have a clue how to drive in any conditions.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)congestion and rush hour are not gridlock.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)We somehow manage not to totally fuck over our traffic system, even in weather magnitudes of order worse, in a city rated more congested. You blame your traffic problems on whatever you want, we don't have school children sleeping on buses overnight.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)but you keep trying to say your skills have something to do with it. They do not. Why does it bother you to admit that?
I could not be more thrilled that you never have to experience gridlock. It's a shame it happened here the way it did regardless of the blame.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)I wouldn't be so smug. My commute can vary between 40 minutes and three hours depending on the weather. Never had to sleep in my car though.
End result, you had kids sleeping on buses, we don't. Either your drivers suck or ours don't, depending on where you want to draw the baseline.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)that's not really something to be proud of.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Phentex
(16,334 posts)skills for driving in ice and snow had nothing to do with what happened here.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)The cars didn't just "poof" onto the highways. The traffic system of Atlanta failed. Blame it on whatever the heck you want, but it happened. We don't have helicopters searching for stranded motorists, we don't have kids sleeping on buses, we don't have to bring food and water in humvees to people still in their cars.
Piss, whine, moan all you want, but it happened. I wasn't there, I don't know who or what fucked up. But the traffic system there failed. Bottom line. You can't change that.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)Thank you. All I wanted for was for you to understand. I see now you've got it.
I do appreciate your patience. 
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Your traffic system fucked up. The problem was not "GRIDLOCK!!!" The problem was either your system is so bad or your driver's are so bad (or the one you refuse to believe, the weather was so bad) or a combination of all of them placed the system in gridlock. Gridlock is a description of the state of failure, it is not a cause of the failure.
Blame whatever is appropriate, but the fuck up is not explained by "ZOMG, GRIDLOCK!!"
Phentex
(16,334 posts)I am surprised you are so invested. I really thought you had it for a sec.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)McCoy: He's dead, Jim.
Kirk: how did he die?
McCoy: He's dead, Jim.
Kirk: Why did he die?
McCoy: He's dead, Jim.
Gridlock is a dead traffic system. It is not how or why it died. Prior to death, things were going bad and progressed to failure. You are so laser focused on it being failed that you appear to be absolutely blind to how and why it happened. And you seem to be trying to say that absolutely nothing is to blame and no one should question it.
You seem equally invested, but it really seems you can't formulate the simple questions of how and why.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)It reincarnates.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Throw out a non sequitur.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)I applaud your tenacity and freedom from blaming anyone for your current state. I'm glad I could relieve some of the tedium of being stranded tens of feet from help. I hope that food and water reaches you soon.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)I'm from new Jersey.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Feel free to post "GRIDLOCK!!!!" again, I'm going to bed.
I have to drive across Minneapolis for about the 14,000th time in the morning. Supposed to get a couple inches of snow overnight, hope I can make it to work in less than a day. Probably should pack some extra emergency supplies in case everyone tries to drive at once...
Phentex
(16,334 posts)And warm.
Paladin
(28,255 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Atlanta's traffic system failed under conditions that Minneapolis faces every week during winter. That is a fact and no amount of whining about how it wasn't anyone's fault and no one should be blamed is going to change that. I don't know what went wrong, but when you have people abandoning cars ON the highway, something failed horribly.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Atlanta gets two inches of snow and panics. We get two inches of snow and call it "just another day".
Our roads are also solid ice and our temperatures are below freezing.
Boo. Hoo.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)We had about 4 inches on Saturday and they didn't even plow until it was completely over. People just don't know how to drive in it if they haven't lived in it.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)I lived half of my life in Toledo, Ohio, and half of my life in Atlanta (where I live now).
You clowns have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
840high
(17,196 posts)
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)You must live outside the metro because the roads where I am in the metro are not solid ice. There's some black ice concerns at intersections and on ramps & bridges and patches of ice here and there but my commute has not been on solid sheets of ice.
Did you seen the films from Atlanta? You could have played hockey on the interstate.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I'm in St. Cloud and the roads are pure ice. They have been that way for weeks.
I have 
for Atlanta.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)your claim of roads being "pure ice" don't jibe with what family that lives in that area says.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)"family that lives in area"
Yeah. I'm sure.
Quit stalking me, btw.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I reply to many people here. Don't flatter yourself. btw
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)and I know those people who claim, "we drive on ice 6 months of the year" are full of shit. Yes, there's snow, and packed snow and icy sections nearly all winter long, and times of slush and melt and refreeze but a mass of fresh ice everywhere all at once is a whole 'nother ballgame. I know because our city had a significant freezing rain event this year that shut down the city for a few hours. They were begging people to stay off the roads on the radio. They were just lucky it happened at 8pm on a Saturday night instead of 5pm on a Friday. Even so, there was gridlock from people returning from shopping and sliding backwards down hills. The city stopped bus service and deployed every single piece of sanding and salting equipment they had. Within a few hours things were better, but that's only because of the sheer volume of equipment the city has to deal with it. So people who are laughing have no idea what freshly formed ice on every inch of road in the entire area is like and just like to make fun of others to make themselves feel superior.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Warm ground in the South means the snow melts when it hits the ground. The slush then re-freezes into ice. There's too much melt for sanding/salting to prevent it.
Meanwhile, your snow falls and mostly remains snow.
I've lived through lake-effect snow in upstate NY, and a couple inches of snow in the south. It's much easier to drive through 2 feet of lake effect snow than to drive through 2 inches of Southern snow.
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)How much money does Minnesota spend on earthquake preparations, hurricane preparations, and 110+ heat wave preparations?
If any earthquake hits your town and the city shuts down, will you be prepared to take similar heat from San Franciscans? 'Cause you will look pretty damn stupid to them.
Erose999
(5,624 posts)Meanwhile, the south can handle 8 straight weeks of triple digit temperatures and near 100% humidity. Could you handle that?
And this weekend while y'all are out shoveling your driveways or whatever I'll be out in shorts playing disc golf because it'll be back to 60+ degrees again.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Big whoop.
People die here being stuck in vehicles at subzero temps.
mc51tc
(219 posts)The high forecast for by this Sunday is 63 degrees F. However, Minneapolis`s high is forecast to be a sweltering 11 degrees F. I`ll take Atlanta or Southern areas anytime during the winter; not so much in July and August though!
840high
(17,196 posts)patio is pure ice.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)in Vermont. I had to learn to break in all conditions. It's not an innate skill that's for sure, plus it helps to have the right tires.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Phentex
(16,334 posts)Are there special skills for that? The gridlock was not caused by ice on the roads. The ice came later.
840high
(17,196 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)I actually live in Atlanta. I know.
I live in the western suburbs of Chicago so I'm used to driving in bad weather. I have a cousin who is from here but now lives in Texas. When her and her boyfriend (from TX) used to visit, she wouldn't let him drive during the winter months. They're simply not used to the road conditions.
Erose999
(5,624 posts)doughnuts in an empty big box parking lot and learn how to turn out of a skid, how to gear down and use engine braking (manual transmission) instead of slamming on the brakes. Being able to practice in those situations without panicking is the key.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)I live in LA and am afraid to drive in the rain...
dorkulon
(5,116 posts)You guys just have no practice. It's nothing to be ashamed about, but after a few years you do get better at it.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)The ice came after the gridlock.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Phentex
(16,334 posts)It's very pertinent to the situation that happened here yesterday.
But instead people want to talk about their superior driving skills which could not be used yesterday until after it was too late.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Besides demonstrating that it wasn't the ice people couldn't drive in but the snow?
There seems to be an attempt to say that the weather conditions in places like Atlanta are unprecedented. That no body of drivers, even those from other colder, northern states, could handle it, when clearly that is not the case.
It's okay to say that people in Atlanta don't know how to drive in snowy, icy conditions. That's not a slight on them as human beings. It's stating an actuality.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)powers that be had a plan in place for the traffic.
Let's say you and I go to a restaurant. I eat the ribs and you eat the pulled pork. You get really sick later and suspect you had food poisoning. How about if I keep telling you that I never get food poisoning when I eat pork. How would that have anything to do with your food poisoning? The fact is, I did not eat pork - YOU did.
In the Atlanta situation, it would be more accurate to say that you live in a place where people don't panic at the thought of snow. Therefore, where you live people would not all leave at the same time to try and get home.
As for this:
There seems to be an attempt to say that the weather conditions in places like Atlanta are unprecedented. That no body of drivers, even those from other colder, northern states, could handle it, when clearly that is not the case.
I am not attempting to say that at all.
As for this:
It's okay to say that people in Atlanta don't know how to drive in snowy, icy conditions. That's not a slight on them as human beings. It's stating an actuality.
I agree with that.
dorkulon
(5,116 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)The Interstate Hwys are cleared by state hwy dept.
On that fact, we can all agree!
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)n/t
jeff47
(26,549 posts)In the North, the ground is colder, so that 2" of snow remains mostly snow.
In the South, the ground is much warmer, so that 2" of snow immediately turns to slush. Which then freezes into solid ice.
The snow clearing equipment is necessary to get the slush off the road before it freezes.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)And yet we deal with it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Should Californians mock the people upset by earthquakes caused by fracking?
Soundman
(297 posts)A few years? Ago. The mockery was over the top by many.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)we got hit with 2-½ feet in June and we didn't seem to have that problem, nor did it turn into Beyond Thunderdome.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Those poor kids have to spend a second night in their schools. The mayor should have closed schools the day of the storm and kept kids at home. They could have also closed the major highways.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)As an Arizonan, I certainly could not pull it off. But my friend did it wonderfully. Everything is a controlled slide.
So, yes, it is possible to drive on icy roads. Not that I would expect everyone to know how to do so.
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)I've lived in Minnesota most my life (less a few years when my dad was transferred to Buffalo, NY). No one can drive on ice - getting to where you're going when the roads are as icy as the ones in Atlanta have been is mainly a matter of you knowing better than trying to drive faster than a few miles an hour, not having some idiot riding your bumper - and a whole lot of luck.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)And you threw in "luck" at the end to not make your latter statements completely contradict the former.
It is true that you can drive on iced over roads. You have to drive slowly and know how to slide and brake without losing control. Which is not something I would expect Atlantans to know.
I don't agree with mocking them for not knowing but I also don't agree with trying to turn the weather conditions there into some sort of cinematic impossibility.
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)All the expirience in the world won't help if the car behind you can't t stop.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Would you like to try a third time?
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)Your skills may help you control your car (though even the best drivers make bone-headed mistakes) but nothing but luck can save you from being rear ended or sideswiped by a car whose driver has lost control.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)
The Walking Dead v. Atlanta
Thirties Child
(543 posts)My niece spent 16 hours driving on surface streets, finally took refuge in a church, left work at noon yesterday, got home around four p.m. today. She had to cross the Chattahoochee to get home, the bridges were iced over, no way to cross into Cobb County. My daughter, on the other hand, had a straight shot north, no rivers to cross, no overpasses to cross. She remembered Snow Jam 82, left work at 12:45, got home in 45 minutes.
If driving on ice is difficult, driving on ice on a hill is impossible. Critics may not realize just how hilly Atlanta is. The ridges run northeast-southwest, and most of the major roads seem to follow the ridges instead of cutting across them. Animal trails>native pathways>farm roads>major thoroughfares? It can be hard to get from here to there in the best of times.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)who laugh at us "freaking out" over a little bit of snow.
Then they hit black ice and wreck. They stop laughing after that.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)is that the ground here is warm.
When the first few flakes fall, they melt. When temps drop or more snow falls, that water from the first few flakes form a layer of ice underneath that thin layer of snow.
For Northern reference, it's always a "wet" snow rather than a "dry" snow.
When people in the North are dealing with inches or even feet of snow, they are only dealing with snow.
When people in the South are dealing with fractions of an inch of snow - it's not snow. It's ice.
I love dealing with Transplanted Yankees who laugh at us native southerners who freak out at a "little" snow - because they will be the ones stranded. I try to warn them, but always "know better" until they don't.
It's not the snow - it's the ice hidden by the snow. And often it comes out of nowhere. I was going along fine, and then suddenly started sliding. No warning. The road looked fine. The only warning I had was the cars I saw sliding in front of me.
But you guys just keep on making fun of us..... until you come down here.
IL Lib
(190 posts)we are familiar with driving on ice in the Chicago area as well. It's understandable those who live in the south wouldn't be used to it. I joke around with a friend who lives in Texas about it. No harm meant. She even jokes about how everything is shut down due to a slight dusting.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)I live in DFW and it's horrible driving here when things get iced over. I lived on Long Island before and I drove out in a huge snow storms out there, it was just easier to do for several reasons. But here in Texas we're often times driving directly on solid ice without a layer of snow for traction. It also tends to melt and then refreeze over the days, which causes this very difficult to drive on cobblestone ice. Add on to the fact we have less sand/salt trucks and it's just a mess. We also have sooo many steep and tall flyovers here that become giant popsicles that end up being mostly unusable. I had to drive in that stuff back in December, and I'm glad most the place shutdown because having the normal traffic in those conditions would have been a nightmare.
IL Lib
(190 posts)Who said ice? Speaking on her experiences living in Tennessee and Texas.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)
Have you been in MN in the last few weeks? The roads are pure ice.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)Right?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)It is a very different thing.
There will always be people who make fun of others, which is a real shame.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Seriously?
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)The Ocean is always above freezing. So when we get Nor'Easters a lot of times it starts out as rain or very wet snow that freezes under the snow. What you experienced is not anything new or different. Now how your elected officials let you down is another story.
BTW I lived in Southern VA for 5 years and experienced Southern Snow as well. Slow down, do not stop rolling and never ever use your brakes. Down shift and use the engine as a brake. It does only work if you are on the road alone or all the other people are using the same driving technique. If not, everybody will get stranded.
OnionPatch
(6,169 posts)Born and raised in the north, I've driven in the snow most of my life but one of the worst conditions I was ever in was on I-10 on a road trip, passing through Houston, TX during a freak snowstorm. It was only an inch or less but slippery as all hell. It was probably similar conditions to what Atlanta has now.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I live in Ohio. Here we experience about every kind of hazardous winter driving condition imaginable. It is never pleasant and it costs lives every Winter.
I have never enjoyed driving in bad conditions. It does help when you have frequent inclement weather so you develop a skill set and driving strategy necessary to avoid accidents. That said, I have completely spun out and did a 360º spin on several occasions. Many Northern drivers have ended up stranded in a road side ditch even though they drive in the stuff all the time. No one is immune.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)when we have weather that pretty much shuts down the city. We might have more ice/snow clearing stuff here than Atlanta, but it's still not as much as the cities who have hundreds of those things. And driving on solid ice is no joke and very dangerous. There is a big difference between driving on that and snow. I had to drive on our icy roads to work for about almost a week, and that was horrible. I'm glad many people stayed home, because that would have increased the chances of those people hitting me.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I'm glad it happened over the weekend. Some schools were shut down from Friday through Tuesday. I've lived here my whole life and have never seen anything like that.
I'm fortunate that I live very close to my work and my commute requires no interstates, bridges or overpasses.
Soundman
(297 posts)Living in central onio we get it all. The stuff aerows talks about is pretty common here. Usually we get it from a rain on top of snow and it creates a sheet of ice. Any way, sleet, freezing rain and refrozen snow on roads is not that big of a deal. What is a big deal (and what it sounds like they got to me) is black ice. No one driving a conventional automobile is going anywhere on black ice period. For me it is by far the scariest of all road conditions, second only to flooding. I have watched many a car slide off into a ditch mearly trying get moving in a forward direction. And the experience of hitting the brakes and them having zero effect is an experience you really don't want. Luckily we are usually prepared for it and only experience small patches.
My family have all migrated to coon rapids and I spent a winter at my sisters sometime in the early 90s. Was one of the worst January's they ever had according to the weather reports. The snow on her driveway exeeded the throwing ability of her two stage snow blower and I had to shovel for most of January. I don't think the side roads ever did become snow or ice free. It was slow moving but easy to get around in the cities. Any refreezing ice from snow is usually not a big deal as it isn't all that smooth and is more like hard muddy ruts than ice.
Stay safe my southern friends.
dawg
(10,624 posts)People not familiar with the area sometimes do not realize how huge Atlanta has become. The relatively small population of the central city is very deceptive. The Atlanta metropolitan area is vast and it is the national poster-child for sprawl.
The twin towers in the picture above are around 12 miles from the center of downtown, and residential suburbs stretch twenty or more miles further north.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)They should be more like us obviously superior folks in the more northern section of the United States. Or as I like to call it, the "Proper Zone". You see we all drive on sheer ice, packed 30 to 40 feet deep, uphill, both ways, from mid August to late June, on summer tires, with no tread, in magical cities that somehow have a population higher than our entire state, with nothing but the most deft and skilled drivers.
We are so much better then they are. We would never have people stranded in cars for 20+ hours. Please ignore news stories that state otherwise, it's a right-wing conspiracy and stuff.
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)you probably want to avoid the Star Tribune's article about the number of spin outs and accidents in the Twin Cities metro during this morning's commute.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Inconvenient truth.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)But that's just a typical Thursday in Minnesota, right?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)the population, and reduce the miles of road by 11% and see how they would fare.
Also reduce the number of snow removal vehicles from 1 per 32 lane miles to 1 per 187 lane miles.
I doubt there would be much laughing and smugness.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)during snow storms. Sure, it would take awhile to get home during my commute 10-12 years ago, but it wasn't horrible. Now....with just a couple inches of ice or snow, for some reason our whole city shuts down as well.
I'm not sure if it's just cheap city/county governments who are trying to save resources or if people are getting to be worse drivers, but it's really strange, the marked downgrade in ice/snow traveling here in the midwest over the past 10 years.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)I am really shocked it is that many. They are probably n really good shape. They just don't have much need for snowplows in Georgia.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)which was 10.
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)ice is a given almost every fucking day of the months-long winters, including on our driveways and front yards, and we deal with this shit ALL. FUCKING. WINTER. LONG, including driving in it. And the state is mostly rural where we deal with unplowed and icy rural roads ALL. THE. FUCKING. TIME. So, no, it isn't that hard for millions of Americans like us to comprehend how snow turns to ice, and how bad it can be, at ALL. It is our life for many months out of the year. We are all just shaking our heads here at the weeping and wailing and wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.
And the same was and is true for my home state of Ohio, where I lived in a lake-effect-snow-and-ice area (a Great Lake, at that). Try driving back and forth to work every day on a couple of city bridges over the lake that were always iced up and where you were afraid you were going to slide right off into the damned lake.
Some perspective and getting-a-grip is called for here.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)but there was always SNOW on the ground for grip. I drove very slowly mind you, but solid inch thick ice is a different animal.
I also don't believe you have the sheer amount of traffic Atlanta does, hundreds of thousands of cars/trucks, all hitting the road at the same time, all compressing what little snow there was into ice.
Next time Atlanta is going to get a big ice/snow storm, come on down. You could probably make fortune showing us how to drive, turn and stop on nothing but ice.
Some perspective indeed.