Let's be honest about what's really happened in the past 5-7 years here...

[Triana]

[daleanime]

1. Kick....

[yuiyoshida]

55. Kick!

[Kelvin Mace]

2. If we are going to be honest

then we have to discuss the part where Obama refuses to prosecute the Banksters, which tells them it is "business as usual"

I am all for going after BushCo for everything from fraud to war crimes, sadly, the Obama administration isn't interested.

[yeoman6987]

3. Because Bush was President

President Obama is part of the 44 member club that will not go after each other. That is the way it is. Like it or not, you nor I will change that even with all the complaining in the World. Knowing that and actually agree with President Obama on leaving Bush out of the mess, I do think that Cheney and Rumsfeld should be procecuted. Why can't President Obama at least go after those two?

[niyad]

8. why should der chimpenfuhrer be left of of the mess? he, cheney, rummy, rice--the whole stinking

lot of them should have been prosecuted for everything that could be thrown at them. do you remember the sign on truman's desk--"the buck stops here".

[StevePaulson]

11. Can't Go After Bush

Could you imagine the Republicans prosecuting Obama for Benghazi, IRS, and saying you could keep you policy. Democrats would be prosecuting war criminals, and Republicans would prosecute Democrats for being Democrats.

Can't go after presidents.

If they suck, impeach them.

Not like the Democrats had enough balls to impeach Reagan, or Bush 2. Even if their crimes were a slam dunk.

Democrats are pussies and Republicans are monsters.

Welcome to Amerika.

http://www.RepublicansAreADisease.com

Republicans Are A Disease

[Kelvin Mace]

14. There is NOTHING to stop Obama from going after

Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Yu, Powell, et al.

He can leave Little George alone. Veeps, cabinet members and staffers are NOT part of the 44 Club.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. I like this scenario: A CIA black-windowed van goes around Washington,

picks up Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and the whole slimy team of masterminds of the Iraq invastion and the Guantanamo prison camp, takes them to a secret airport, and loads them on a plane that somehow ends up landing in The Hague.

[progressoid]

23. Actually there are a lot of things stopping him.

Namely the dozens of Democrats that supported and/or enabled the Bush administration.

It would be hypocritical (also self-incriminating) for a lot of people in our party to start pointing fingers at club 43.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. War crimes are war crimes

no matter who commits them.

People can make arguments about pragmatism, but they can't then claim the moral high ground and mortal offense when others point out the immorality of the Obama administration. "Our side isn't as bad as they are" is not really an ethically defensible position.

[progressoid]

34. Sure.

And I'm not defending them.

Just saying I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for action. It ain't gonna happen.

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Sadly,

you are correct.

[dionysus]

49. on top of that, i think it's also what the penalties for war crimes and treason are.

typically, life imprisonment or death. I don't think they want to touch it for that reason alone.

[Agnosticsherbet]

28. Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Yu, Powell, et al. were acting on orders from and policies set by Bush.

What would they do, call Bush “an unindicted co-conspirator”? Any evidence that nails the Vice President, the SecDef, Secretary of State. or anyone else in the circle of the Cabal would damn Bush. They could go after six heads of the hydra. They have to go after the ass they grow out of.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. The excuse offered was that going after the previous president

would set a bad precedent. Fine, then go after all the rest.

Instead, Obama gave a pass to war crimes, and at some point in the future the United States will be called to account. As U.S. power wanes, rising power will remember.

[Agnosticsherbet]

40. To go after them, you must have evidence that is provable in court.

You can't just go after the Vice President and Bushes closest appointed advisors and Pretend the President wasn't in the office and that group formed a conspiracy to run a shadow government that Bush had no say in. The idea of just going after Bush's top guys and leave him out of it doesn't make legal sense. You would have to break Bush's claim of Executive Privilege, and to do that you have to go after Bush.

The notion of going after the top appointees and the Vice President would break against the wall of executive privilege. No other President will break that wall and drastically cut his or her own power. The US Congress could try, but the Republicans in charge now have no interest in attack a former Republican President.

The Kucinich/Wexler impeachment in 2008 contained 35 articles. It went no where. Almost six years after the fact, there is even less political will to escalate the current political war between Republicans and Democrats.

In 2004, Charlie Rangel introduced impeachment articles against Rumsfeld. Again, nothing came of this at the time. In the run up to the midterms of 2006, Rangel and others called for investigations. they never happened after Democrats took over.

Deciding to go after the Bush administration at this time when the Country is still dragging itself out of a recession against the weight of the Republican anchor wrapped around our collective necks would be seen and reported as a blatant political hack job to call when Democrats should be concentrating on rebuilding the economy. Those on the left that would raise up and cheer would be drasticly outnumbered by those in the political center who have trouble remembering what happened two years ago.

We need to concentrate on the midterm and elect democrats who will enact policies that are slightly more friendly to the masses. If Republicans hold onto the House and take the Senate, it will not be pretty. Anything that can be done about BushCo will be done in the international courts, not in the US of A.

If we are going to do anything, we need to go after the hole group, not just the underlings.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. You can't get evidence if no one conducts an investigation

There is more than ample evidence to warrant a full blown criminal investigation, not just in this country, but at The Hague.

It does not matter how many Democrats are elected, the U.S. government is NEVER going to prosecute any politicians (or their appointees) for war crimes. That was made clear by the fact that Henry Kissinger still walks the streets.

I am simply getting a bit fed up with people (not poking at you) trying to tell me how morally superior one side is over the other. The truth is that when push comes to shove, both sides are willing to torture/commit murder and/or look the other way while torture/murder is committed.

[yeoman6987]

51. The Hague?

The United States have absolutely nothing to do with The Hague. That would be even a bigger waste of time.

[Kelvin Mace]

57. The U.S. does not subject itself to ANY authority

which could hold it genuinely accountable.

[stillcool]

46. the Iraqi's should go after..

The US government for everything it's got. They are the victims. Maybe the government should reveal everything it's done for the last 50 years or so? Bring the empire to it's knees.

[nxylas]

31. What makes you think they won't do all that stuff anyway?

It's like when Harry Reid invoked the "nuclear option" and everyone was soooo worried that Republicans would use it when they came to power, as if they'd hesitate for a moment to change the filibuster rules themselves if they thought it would be in their interest to do so.

[Triana]

36. You NAILED it right here...

"Democrats are pussies and Republicans are monsters.

Welcome to Amerika."

BINGO!

[Egalitarian Thug]

41. Conservatism is a disease, but refusing to do your job because of fear of retaliation is both

negligent and craven. Besides, doesn't the fact that they ran a 7 year long investigation into real estate fraud and ended up impeaching over a blow job indicate that they are going to go after any Democratic President for any, or no reason?

There are reasons for giving these criminals a pass and it has nothing to do with fear of obstruction.

[Kelvin Mace]

13. As long as they play the game

they have no moral/ethical cover for their failures.

[WonderGrunion]

43. Well actually ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024434322

[kairos12]

4. That is the rethug manifesto. Drive the rental car, wreck it, and toss

the keys to Obama and say fix it while closing all the mechanic shops. Rethugs. I hate them all.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. So, are the Republicans also responsible for TPP?

Or the XL pipeline? Or the war on cannabis users/growers/retailers? Or Arne Duncan? Or appointing numerous Republicans in cabinet positions?

Sorry, but "OccupyDemocrats" just makes me laugh. Stealing the "Occupy" nomenclature for reasons of partisan politics -- something OWS is adamantly against.

[Triana]

19. Yes. They are.

That of course does not mean Democrats are not.

[cui bono]

25. Agreed.

And again turning real policy issues into a simplistic team sport.

That's not going to help get anything worthwhile accomplished, it just plays into the petty fighting amongst the people that TPTB want in order to continue amassing their wealth and power.

[Iliyah]

6. K & R

Another site I can go to, thanks Triana!

[woo me with science]

7. Ignoring the role of corporate Democrats in the rape of this country

is fundamentally dishonest.

Occupy is not a partisan movement. They recognize that the corporate money cancer is in both parties.

[StevePaulson]

12. Yep - Get The Money Out

Make taking money from the Koch Brothers political death.

[Triana]

21. I think the Koch Bros are treasonous and ought to be stopped. n/t

[mstinamotorcity2]

26. Personally I like the old Democratic plan.

We put in the Sweat Equity and the repugs spend a bunch of money and we still WIN!!! By out Registering and getting more people out to the polls. With every group they go against they dis enfranchise themselves. It is our opportunity to bring our message of Income Inequality and Government is for the People who believe Government should truly work in the benefit of the people they are elected to serve in part and as a whole. Why anyone would vote to elect a person that tells them Government is bad is beyond me. If its so bad why are they in it. To confuse the voter with rhetoric while they rob the Country and the Middle Class blind of its resources while placating the 1%. 2014 is here Lets Go to Work!!!! Fired Up, Ready To Go

[bvar22]

44. Did you see how FAST the Democratic Party Leadership RAN from ACORN...

..the minute a Republican Blogger posted a scam video?

....but circle the wagons to protect an International Laughing Stick and LIAR like General Clapper?
Hell YES, The Party Leadership will use ALL the dry powder to protect Establishment Republican Assholes like HIM.

ACORN was worth saving.
Clapper..... not so much.

[mstinamotorcity2]

58. Some lessons are

hard learned.

[Marr]

53. +1

[Enthusiast]

9. You forgot two unnecessary wars of choice that drove up the deficit

and huge tax breaks for the wealthy that did the same.

[treestar]

10. And they cut embassy funding

and then blame the President because of Benghazi (assuming more money would have been the deciding factor in cutting off the attack - typical Republicans. Everything is about $$).

[merrily]

16. If we are going to claim honesty, let's really be honest

and not one-sided propagandists.

[rhett o rick]

17. Blaming Republicans is just what ThePowersToBe want us to do. How utterly naive.

TPTB even went so far as to make the Republican politicians into the Clown Party so it would be real easy to concentrate our hatred on them. While we watch and cheer as the Clown Car implodes, the corporate Democrats are picking our pocket.

The working class is all but destroyed and the middle class is right behind. Simply electing Democrats isnt enough, we much elect non-corporate progressive Democrats.

[Skidmore]

20. I'm confused by those backflips and spins you are doing in your routine there.

I thought the Corporate Rs and the Corporate Ds are one and the same, but it appears I have misunderstood because the Corporate Rs are in a clown car with a bomb attached to it or something and the Corporate Ds apparently have developed vast powers to manipulate the universe. I don't know exactly who any of these people/clowns are anymore because it appears they are a large amorphus group that sometimes can be fit in some configuration on a Venn diagram and other times not so much.

[rhett o rick]

22. Let me simplify it for you. Dont concentrate on defeating Republians. It's also important to

defeat corporate Democrats.

[Armstead]

29. You described the problem yourself

" I don't know exactly who any of these people/clowns are anymore because it appears they are a large amorphus group that sometimes can be fit in some configuration on a Venn diagram and other times not so much."

Exactly. They are amorphous. If you put many of the economic policies of people like Bill Clinton and President Obama on a chart a,ong with the policies of the GOP, it'd be hard to tell the difference on many of them. Not all -- but many, and often the most important ones.

"Free market" globalism, deregulation of Wall St. and Big Business and Big Media, privatization of public services......Too often not a whole lot of difference.

[Skidmore]

30. Humanity is amorphous with people drifting in and out of

alliances and opposition with one another. I think that the alignment of ideas sometimes are accidental and a byproduct of cultural drift. That not everything is a huge Orwellian conspiracy birthed in the bowels of some secret dark temple. Granted, there are some nefariously minded power grubbers like the Kochs and the Bushes who are willing to buy people to carry do the legwork for them. We've had enough individuals from the fringes who have sent out both positive and negative ripples of greater magnitude than those with the most money.

[rhett o rick]

50. Please simplify your point. nm

[uponit7771]

48. Ummmmm....no

[Jesus Malverde]

18. I can't believe those republicans pulled one over on us.. those fiends..nt

[Autumn]

24. Let's be honest. Obama was all for bailing out those bankers

with trillions of dollars with no strings attached. Then turning around and putting some of them in charge. He also made the deal to allow the wealthy to keep the tax breaks of bush's that were due to expire that really helped eat up the surplus . Yeah the fucking pukes have blocked every effort to create jobs. I hate hypocrisy, republican or otherwise.

[MisterP]

35. I got BOGlisted for saying that he doesn't hate Wall Street

that's the problem with echo chambers: if anyone pokes their head outside of one everyone looks at them funny

it's the same way actual biologists and historians are actually quite ill-equipped to handle creationists or people who don't cite anything written after 1910: all the former can do is reiterate everything they've worked on all their lives, and the latter just have to wail "but Jeeeessus/Hypaaatia" and the whole thing starts over again

[Phlem]

27. Oh My.

-p

[Cha]

37. Thank You, Triana!

[libodem]

38. Proud to K&R

[blkmusclmachine]

45. CAN'T WE FIND THE BIPARTISAN MIDDLE????????

[Drew Richards]

47. Evidence you say? Oh no. no I'm sorry, didn't you hear, all the white house emails from the Bush

Era were wiped and the drives destroyed ya know... It was that darn wild cat BBS mail server it was so unstable we had to get rid of it in the last few months of his presidency....sorry...

[liberal_at_heart]

52. true but we must also be honest about what has been happening for the past 30 years.

Every since Reagan we have been living with his Trickle Down economics and the democrats have done nothing to try and change it.

[Triana]

54. Agreed. n/t

[Corruption Inc]

56. OK, #3 and #5 are the only honest ones.

You asked for honesty.