Billionaire Sam Zell: "The 1% work harder."

[Are_grits_groceries]

When the going gets tough, the rich dudes stick together. Or at least rich dude Sam Zell did in an interview with Bloomberg TV Wednesday.

The billionaire chairman of Equity Group Investments backed up fellow rich guy Tom Perkins, who set off a firestorm when he recently compared the "progressive war on the 1 percent" to Nazi anti-Semitism in a letter to the Wall Street Journal. (He later apologized for using the word "Kristallnacht" but defended the overall "message.&quot

"I guess my feeling is that he’s right," Zell said when asked by Bloomberg's Betty Liu how he felt about Perkins' stance. "The 1 percent are being pummeled because it’s politically convenient to do so." Zell then said the problem is that all non-rich are just jealous that they don't have the same work ethic that the country's wealthiest do.

"The problem is that the world and this country should not talk about envy of the 1 percent. It should talk about emulating the 1 percent," he said. "The 1 percent work harder. The 1 percent are much bigger factors in all forms of our society."
<snip>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/05/sam-zell-1-percent_n_4733196.html

Paging Madame DeFarge. Paging Madame DeFarge.

[Scuba]

1. Delusional, dishonest, or both???

[yeoman6987]

56. It is comparing apples to oranges

I can guarantee that he does not work just a 40-hour week. He is probably in the 80-hour plus hours a week and then with computer and cell phone at home, he is probably constantly "working". However, I definitely don't think you can compare what he does which is a ton of stress to what a guy working on ditches or something.

[laundry_queen]

90. He's probably a lot like my 'businessman' ex

spends 3 hours at lunch with other businessmen, drinking beer and watching sports and calls it 'working' because, well, one of those businessmen might cut a deal with him sometime in the future. Is on the computer checking his email, calls it 'working', answers his phone 3 times a night, calls it 'working'. Goes and stays in a luxury hotel for a few days, wining and dining clients for a few hours one evening....but enjoys himself the rest of the trip...calls it 'working'. It's really, really NOT the same thing as actually 'working'. Really. But they seem to think it is working 'harder' somehow. It's not.

[Egalitarian Thug]

115. You know absolutely nothing about that world.

When you count every waking moment as "being at work", it's easy to claim how hard it is. Playing a round is "work", having lunch is "work", commuting from home to office in a helicopter is "work", sitting in the back of a limo while talking on the phone is "work".

Whatever a parasite chooses to define as work is work, so of course they all "work" very hard, or at least spend all of their time doing it.

[Enthusiast]

147. +1 a shit load!

[durablend]

2. A*holes stick together

Anyone seen that guillotine lately? Not sure where I left it....

[hobbit709]

4. Yep. It needs a good dusting and oiling.

[hobbit709]

3. He's partially right on this point.

"The 1 percent are much bigger factors in all forms of our society." Yep, they are a big factor in how the 99% are getting the shaft.

[tridim]

5. Please proceed asshole.

[Are_grits_groceries]

69. Wait? Are you talking to me? nt

[tridim]

80. LOL no.

I'm calling that filthy rich 1%'er an asshole, because he is.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

146. I once had a post hidden for what you did. Lol

Now I clarify.

[badtoworse]

6. There's a lot more to it than that.

The 1% is above my pay grade, but do I know a lot of people who are in the top 5% or so. There are a number of things that they are typically better than average at doing:
1.) They really do have a high work ethic; they do work hard and are respected for their integrity.
2.) They worked hard in school and majored in things for which there is substantial need.
3.) They are disciplined, prudent investors / savers.
4.) They maintain a network of business connections throughout their career.
5.) They have a plan.
6.) They are smart.

Yeah, I know some rich dirtbags and I know some smart people who've been unlucky, but they are exceptions. I believe that people who do the above have an excellent chance at being successful (and well off). Getting hung up with envy will accomplish nothing but preventing you from achieving your own goals.

[UncleMuscles]

9. 7. They inherited wealth

8. Their parents' social class ensure a web of connections that opens doors your average schlub would never dream of having. Connections that can proffer well-timed and well-placed loans, assistance, investment, equity, capital, etc.
9. They don't have the working class work ethic of trading time for wages.
10. They make money from money and things like land, inside information, golf course conversations, and fucking many, many people.

[JaneyVee]

14. Well said.

[badtoworse]

15. None of those things apply to the rich people I know. - nt

[AnneD]

36. I have worked in many exclusive places ....

for well heeled people. For every one earnest well to do that I encounter, I encountered at least 3 trust fund babies and at least one that I am certain they obtained their money though criminal means.

[deutsey]

28. Yes, socialization is very different for working class people and wealthy people

I'm from the working class (working poor at times), but I also went to college. It was while attending the large state university I went to that I first experienced this difference between me and my mostly middle class and upper middle class classmates.

Later I went to a more exclusive university for graduate school and I really saw the ingrained social differences between those from wealthier backgrounds and someone like me from a working class background.

It's followed me into the work world as well, where I just don't fit easily in the corporate culture of upper management and identify more with people doing the grunt work.

[dhill926]

57. my experience as well...

except I went to a small private college, where the issue was probably more pronounced...

[Hekate]

84. Yep. I was public school all the way until grad school in my 40s...

I went to a private graduate institute and got my MA/PhD, and would not trade my educational experience for anything.

BUT, socially it was my first immersion experience among a class of people who had had money from birth. Lots of money. I cannot even begin to tell you how badly I did not understand their language. I felt unbelievably stupid.

There was only one woman who talked about "class" with me, and for the first 2 years I didn't want to believe her because it rattled my assumptions so much. She saw it very starkly -- she came from a family far poorer than mine (I was the oldest of 4 in a blue collar family; she was the 5th of 16).

And most of my colleagues in grad school were lovely people. I thought I got it -- after all, in my city you don't volunteer for any of a number of social justice issues without eventually rubbing elbows with some extremely well-off people, and I had nothing against them and their art collections.

It was the immersion experience that opened my eyes, just like you. It's another culture, another language, another world, and very different socialization from birth.

[joeglow3]

38. Statistically, those are small numbers

In the media, we see the pieces of crap who did nothing but win the birthing lottery and assume they make up a much larger pool than they do. I read that around 80% of wealthy people are first generation rich.

The majority millionaires actually got the money by consistently investing in the market over a period spanning decades.

My wife and I are doing well and I don't feel sorry about it. Looking at his list an how I believe it applies to me:

1. I consider myself a hard worker. We had an exceptionally busy March-October this last year due to a major acquisition and I worked my ass off, averaging over 75 hours a week. One week, I worked 127 out of 168 hours.
2. I busted my ass in college and got a masters in Accounting.
3. As I said above, I started out at less that $100 month, 14 years ago, but have always consistently paid myself first before ANY bills and have increased the savings rate with every possibility.
4. I constantly have lunches with ex-workers and belong to multiple professional organizations
5. I consider myself as having a plan
6. I would like to think I am smart
7. I am the son of a union drywaller who remembers points in our life when my parents struggled to put food on the table.

Now, one thing I WOULD add to his list: their parents most likely stayed married. A recently saw a study that said the single greatest predictor of a child's lifetime success was the marital status of their parents.

[badtoworse]

45. Your experience is exactly what I was I was talking about...

...and my experience is very similar to yours.

The parents staying married is an excellent addition to the list. Mine did and they gave me an upbringing that I credit for the success I've enjoyed.

BTW, my father sold life insurance. He was an orphan at age 8 and started life with literally nothing; my mother emigrated from what was Jugoslavia when she was 7. We weren't rich but I don't remember food ever being a problem.

[wryter2000]

106. An honest question

I've never understood "pay yourself first" unless you have left over money after paying for the basic necessity. If you only have enough money to pay the rent, do you pay yourself rather than the landlord?

This is not a snarky question. This is something I've never understood.

[joeglow3]

110. I have found that situation is not as common as you may think.

Sure, if you are living in the shittiest, cheapest place and driving a bike to your job and have nothing else, then you can't "pay yourself."

I am a 36 year old professional who makes $125,000 in Omaha Nebraska. Guess when I got my first cell phone.

Last year. However, I know PLENTY of people making a LOT less than me who have had them. My wife and I bought our first new TV a few years ago. Before that, we had hand-me-downs and old tube televisions we bought second hand. Second hand stores have refused to accept these tvs for years because no one will buy them because they want flat screen tv's now. I have owned 3 american made cars (bought 3 years old to maximize price and remaining life) that I drive into the ground.

My wife and I bought a 30+ year old house when everyone we knew were building new houses. As our income improved, we stayed in our house for almost 15 years, before into a 50 year old house (for 187,500), when these same friends were building 300-500k houses.

Essentially, one should try to live as far below their means as possible for the first couple decades of their life. As Dave Ramsey would say: "live like no other so you can live like no other."

Clearly, this does not apply to everyone, but I honestly have met few people could not cut SOME costs somewhere in their life (eating out, fast food, cell phones, cigarettes, alcohol, etc.).

[wryter2000]

112. Thank you for your honest answer

It is possible not to have enough money to meet your basic needs. I've been in that position. I didn't live in a shitty place, and I don't intend to, but it wasn't luxurious, either. Just okay. I wondered at the time how I was supposed to save under those circumstances. Truly, it would have been impossible.

I am saving now because my circumstances have changed.

[joeglow3]

122. At a minimum, I am disgusted with people I have worked with

These are people who, barring some catastrophic emergency in their life, should be able to easily save for retirement. However, they would much rather put 3% to their 401(k) and mortgage themselves up to their eyeballs. THEN, lets lease some expensive as hell cars so we look great and then put a cruise or two on their credit cards.

THESE are the people who will reach their 60's and complain they have no money for retirement. THEY are the drain on society because they had every means to save for retirement and chose to blow their money instead.

[wryter2000]

125. I can't disagree with you there

[Bandit]

58. Like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama??

Both multi millionaires..

[alp227]

72. they didn't come from wealthy families. GW Bush did. nt

[Bandit]

75. I know, I was making a point about his use of such a wide brush.

[Shrike47]

83. The top 5 percenters I'm related to didn't inherit squat. They work really hard, all the time.

But I agree there are a fair number of trust fund babies that just lucked out but think highly of themselves.

[SammyWinstonJack]

99. ...

[Egalitarian Thug]

116. BINGO! The number one predictor of "financial success" is being born to money, period.

All the rest is a Horatio Alger fantasy propelled to keep the proles chasing that carrot.

[joeglow3]

138. Care to back that up?

Almost 80% of millionaires are first generation rich.

[Are_grits_groceries]

10. Seriously?

Some of the hardest working people I know have college degrees and such. They don't get very far and NOT because they are dumb or whatever.

1-A lot of people in all levels of society have high work ethics. They are also respected and they have integrity. These are not solely characteristics of the rich.

2-People work hard in school and do the best they can. They may not have money for college. Many of them do put a priority on education for their Kids.

3-Some people don't earn enough to save and invest through no fault of their own.

4-Many make as many connections as they can. They may not be in the upper echelons of business, but they try. How do you expect people to make meaningful connections in business when those they need to connect with don't even give two hoots about them?

5-Why do you assume only the rich have a plan? Anybody can make a plan to make a lot of money and never come close. They make plans, but apparently not ones you approve of.

6-So you assume those who aren't rich aren't smart? This is specious and insulting.

No! Everybody doesn't have a good chance to be well off. Think again.

[smokey nj]

11. Well said!

[badtoworse]

12. You lose nothing by doing the things I mentioned...

and as far as being smart goes, I know smart people who aren't rich, but I don't know any rich people that aren't smart.

[Are_grits_groceries]

13. Seriously II?

You are overrating rich people.

[Rex]

17. It seems to be a theme in other threads with that one.

I know some rich people that are dumber than dirt, they inherited their money and are in the process of making horrible business decisions.

[joeglow3]

86. Statistically, that is a small number

The vast majority of millionaires are first generation rich.

[Rex]

88. Yeah I know some of them to, a few are still rich.

Most made horrible business decisions. Easy come easy go I guess.

[badtoworse]

18. I'm speaking from my own personal experience

[Are_grits_groceries]

20. Which seems to be very limited. nt

[UncleMuscles]

51. unbelievably limited

[UncleMuscles]

50. "I don't know any rich people that aren't smart"

that has to be the funniest thing I've read all month.

[badtoworse]

52. I'm talking about people that I personally know well

Not people you see or hear about in the media

[UncleMuscles]

53. what do you mean by "rich?"

[badtoworse]

54. Net worth at least $2 million

[hfojvt]

67. and what does he/she mean by 'smart'

Were they all straight A students? National merit commended (or better)? National honor society members?

Or is there some other measurement?

One thing is, somebody at say the 90th percentile on a test is pretty smart, but, at the same time, they are not THAT smart. Not as smart as the 98th percentile.

[anneboleyn]

134. My husband and I earned Ph.D.s from Ivy League institutions and NONE of the candidates came

from the type of background badtoworse seems to know so well.

[haele]

77. Most people I know who have done well have done so with some sort of social subsidy.

Either with help or investment of time, effort and/or money by a better off friend or family member, or with help from the government (Loans, GI Bills, Grants)

They were lucky enough to be able to leverage that support or subsidy into a better position from which they could compete for the ability take advantage of opportunities. Most people succeed through subjective methods - competition for attention, being somewhere at the right time, lucky choices - rather than through an specific objective plan - i.e. - There is no one who can ever say to him/her self:
"I will work hard and graduate Valedictorian at my high school, get my Masters in Finance with a 4.0 from Yale at the age of 25 on scholarships while working assistant and intern jobs to pay the rest of my student bills, immediately get picked for an assistant VP job in Business Leases at Bank of America, become a VP by the age of 30 - all while investing exactly half my paycheck into these stocks and funds that will enable me to be worth $2 million by the time I'm 32.
I will find, attract, and marry a hot, intelligent, spouse, pay cash for a big, comfortable house in the Hudson Valley, have three good natured, smart children spaced exactly 3 years apart who will go to Ivy League schools I can pay for (and they will become successful professionals themselves), and I will continue to work hard in my career of Finance at a few select major firms on the executive level until I can retire at the age of 52 - when my youngest graduates Brown - and then me and my still-hot spouse start our dream to travel and I will become a best-selling travel author..."

Sure, there are people who have that life. A hundred or so, maybe even a thousand born any particular year out of the million or so of their contemporaries. The reality is, the Master's Degree will have half of it paid for by subsidised student loans, you end up needing to spend most of your salary on bills and "networking" events that cost butt-loads of money to impress your bosses and other people you need to impress (so no $2million by 32), your spouse may or may not be "that into you" after the first glow of love wears off, your kids are brats, not as smart as you thought, or accident prone, the house is a money pit, and you end up a burn-out at 60, quit for your health, and now work part time as a college adjunct - because that 32 year old Finance Major from State made you look stupid before the COO of the bank you ended up taking the position of District Manager at, and what would have been your next job after the umpteenth corporate re-organization in the past 10 years went to her (for reasons also including the fact that they could pay her less).

So for most of us, life happens, and no matter how hard we try or plan to live a successful life, we ain't' going to end up so well off. Because, while we think we are making the smartest choices for our situation, the old saying goes - "If you want to hear God laugh, make a plan for success"...

Haele

[choie]

66. Really? How about GW Bush?

Or do you consider him smart because he was smart enough to be born into a rich family of thieves?

[wickerwoman]

97. Strongly suggest you watch "The Queen of Versailles"

And you also need to account for rock stars, sports stars, actors and supermodels. Not all of them are idiots, but you certainly don't need a genius level IQ to lounge around in a bikini and cash fat checks.

Ozzy Osbourne is worth $140 million for starters. Bo Derek can barely form a coherent sentence but is worth $50 million. Then you have the Kardashians, Paris Hilton, Ivanka Trump etc.

Lots of people get rich through blind luck or hard work + luck. Lots of people are talented and work hard and aren't so lucky.

There isn't one quality (or even six) that defines the 1% and explains their success.

But I think what makes the orginial quote so ridiculous is that many 1%ers don't have jobs at all. Maybe one or two people in the family work hard but then everyone else just leeches off them.

[badtoworse]

103. Let's be realistic. Becoming part of the 1% is unlikely to happen to any of us

You do need to be born rich, be exceptionally talented in business sports or entertainment, just plain lucky or some combination thereof. On the other hand, being in the 5% is not an unrealistic goal and that puts you pretty well off. The things on my list are traits in the people that I've personally seen do it.

[wickerwoman]

126. I'm not going to argue

that working hard and choosing the right major, etc, are all good things and likely to lead to a more comfortable life than not working hard, etc.

But the point of this thread is the claim by a 1%er that everyone in that category works harder than everyone not in the category and therefore deserves that success more than people who don't have as much. And that is obviously and demonstrably not true. I suspect it's not true in the majority of cases even.

[anneboleyn]

135. You seem to know a lot of millionaires who fit a certain profile.

[haele]

70. And the final point for success is in the nature of hierarchy, which is how humans socialize.

There is only one position at the top, and a few positions on the way to the top in every social structure. Everyone else is just average.

No matter how hard they work, how smart they are, or how personable they are - 75% of the population will never be able to be "rich" or "powerful" because there are so few positions available to be rich or powerful. There is only one CEO. There are only so many positions on the BoD. There are only so many primary investors or owners. There are only so many businesses that will rise to the top of their market and be successful. Except for the few at the "top", all the others will be considered average, and have to live off whatever is left over from the top.
That is the nature of human societies. No matter if the society is a dictatorship, monarchy, meritocracy, or cooperative, there will always be a hierarchy that will determine those who will be "leaders" and who will be the followers, workers, dependents, etc...

Even if they are smarter, sacrifice more, work harder, or have better ideas than a person who is above them on the socio-economic ladder due to birth, charisma, or just "being in the right place at the right time" the 75% of the human population will never get to the point that they are in a leadership position.

So the 1% like the "billionaire" in the OP - and frankly, the 5% below them who think the same way are self-delusional. They may have worked hard, sacrificed, did all the other "right things" that the various simplistic "Get Rich" playbooks out there suggest, but what it really comes down to is that they lucked into their 1% position over other people who worked just as (if not more) hard and played ethically (or not) by the same "rules".

As for the Rich Dad/Poor Dad or Married Parents/Single Parent syndrome - the other side of the 1%'s argument to pretend the poor don't work so hard and they deserve more success?
Rich Dad has the network of friends and professionals, can afford to buy a support system and invest in the resources for success that he can leverage and pass down to his kids. Poor Dad is too busy trying to survive; to keep his head above water, pay the bills and keep food on the table. Married or Single - likewise, the only benefit is the initial economic push. Again; LUCK! Not Hard Work. Not More Deserving.
In my experience, when it comes to gaging how successful a child will be, parenting doesn't really matter other than as a means for the child to quickly gain a foothold to success - they both tend to tell their kids the same things, and when they can, the good parents, rich or poor, attempt to be an active, positive part of their kids lives. The only difference is that the Rich Parent (or succession of "parents&quot can start the kid economically off on second base, whether or not they are actually involved in the raising of that child.

Haele

[laundry_queen]

92. Ugh, thank YOU! That first list was especially condescending. nt

[Starry Messenger]

21. We know very different rich people.

[JaneyVee]

22. Sorry, your list is NOT typical of the 1%, quite the opposite actually.

The rich people I know actively avoid hard work like the plague. And the only people with envy are them being envious of single mothers collecting welfare to feed their child.

[KansDem]

46. "The rich people I know actively avoid hard work like the plague."

Reminds of an exchange between the Howells during episode 3 of the 1st season of "Gilligan's Island": "Voodoo Something to Me"

Everyone on the island is working for the good of the community, even the Howells --

Lovey: Thurston, what on earth is that on your forehead?
Thurston: (wipes his brow) It looks like water. I wonder where it came from.
Lovey: Thurston, I know what it is. I used to see if on our gardener. It's perspiration.
Thurston: It is? What can I put it in? I've got to send it to Dad. He'd be fascinated.

[Ikonoklast]

29. Did George Bush work hard?

[badtoworse]

31. I don't know. Do you have an informed opinion?

[KansDem]

40. Well, here he is "working hard" after learning of the second WTC attack

President of the United States and Commander in Chief of its armed forces sitting on his butt and doing nothing after being told his friends and business partners killed over 3,000 Americans.

[kairos12]

114. The one percent and their trust blunderer off-spring are ruining the nation.

[hfojvt]

55. well he said it himself

as my old signature line for email quoted him

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
George W Bush, accidentally telling the truth


When Bush was on vacation, again, in August 2001, I said at work "Well, since everything he does or tries to do seems to be evil, the more time he takes off, the better. Hell George, take the next three years off."

[Ikonoklast]

136. "Prezidentin is hard work!"

- G. W. Bush, during his debate with Democratic candidate Sen. John Kerry.

[JHB]

35. The top 5% minus the 1% is about $160K to $250K

That range is generally professionals and successful business people.

That's a very different level than the multimillionaires and billionaires funding and driving the politics on economic issues. In the 160-250K range you do depend on your daily work for the most part.

Not so for those up past the economic stratosphere, who could stop making any more money and still provide well for their families -- sometimes for several generations.

It's that blurring of the divisions at the high end that is part of the problem.

[hfojvt]

64. still, do they really work any harder?

or THAT much harder?

The school superintendent here makes $180,000 a year. A school janitor makes $18,000 a year. Okay, supie has a tough job maybe, with some stress and whatnot, but do they really work TEN times harder than the janitor? Or are they sitting in a comfortable office talking on the phone and reading email while the janitor is outside shovelling off the roof?

I moved over 4,000 pounds of snow - by hand, on Wednesday, which was supposed to be my day off. School had a snow day, and this now is their 3rd one. Supie gets paid $690 for an 8 hour day. How much work has Supie done on those three days off, where he/she got paid over $2,000?

It's really quite insulting to say of somebody making $200,000 a year that "they work hard" as if people who make much, much less do NOT work hard.

[JHB]

78. Is that really where the fight is, politically? Especially nationally?

Or is it the system that reinforces the view that increases expectations of executive compensation and undervalues lower-level work like the janitors?

It's the super-wealthy who are pushing the policies that increase concentration and undercut the ability of everyone else to push back. The entire neoliberal/Reaganomics push has depended on getting the Supies of the country to think they're in the same boat as billionaires on a lot of issues. But the Supies aren't the ones funding and driving the likes of ALEC, pushing laws that make it harder for the janitor to get pay raises.

Remember the arguments over raising taxes on the wealthy? "Is $250,000/year 'rich'?" Why stop on that one number? I like to point out that if you adjust the 1955 tax brackets for inflation two thirds of them kicked in above $250K, and nearly half kicked in above $500K. The top rate affected income above 3.3 million. Even leaving out what the rates were back then, it clearly put extreme wealth in a different category than Supie and his somewhat better off lawyer and doctor friends.

Divide and conquer cuts both ways. If you want to get this country off the Reagy-train, then splitting those 1-5%ers from the billionaires works in our favor. It doesn't hurt to remind them that their savings and investments are the next juicy snack for Wall Street to suck upward.

[hfojvt]

93. I think it IS where the fight is politically

Why do social security benefits need to be cut?

Because politically we cannot raise the cap. Why not? Is it because of the 1%? Or is it because of the 4%?

I think it is because of the 4%.

Who gets more of the national income? The 1%? or the 19%?

In 2006 by IRS estimates, the top 1% got 22.1%, the top 9%* got 25.3% and the top 24%* got 46.1%

Sure, in 1979 the top rate kicked in at $300,000 and that is the same as $960,000 today. But those making over $30,000 a year in 1979 (about the same as $100,000 today) were also paying higher rates. They also got great gains from both the Reagan and the Bush tax cuts (although I still wish I had data from pre-1980) http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/169

But I do have SOME numbers. The 9%'s share of the pie has also grown since 1980.http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937994


*When I say top 9% or top 24% what I mean is "the top 25% without the top 1%" or "the top 10% without the top 1%"


And the reason there is no fight against the top 19% is because THEY own the Democratic Party.

Republicans represent the top 5%
Democrats represent the next 15%

Neither of the SOBs represent the bottom 80%.

The reason I want to peel Supie away from the bottom 80% is because, first of all, they are NOT part of the bottom 80%. And secondly when a politician these days says "middle class tax cut" and includes Supie in the "middle class" what they really mean is that people like Supie are gonna get most of the benefits.

It's just another, kinder gentler version of trickle down. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4085402

[riderinthestorm]

142. K & R for this post nt

[joeglow3]

91. "hard" is a poor choice of words

A big part of it comes down to basic supply and demand. Personally, I am a CPA and make pretty good money. However, to get here, I had to get good grades (about a 3.85 GPA) and a masters degree. Then, I had to study for and pass one of the more difficult exams out there (16 hour exam with a pass rate below 50%). All of this just to get a job. All this for a profession with a shit ton of jobs. Understandably, the pool of applicants is relatively small compared to the number of jobs (big reason why accounting always comes up as one of the most in demand professions). Frankly, I have 14 years of solid reviews and am pretty darn good at my job. That allows me to move up and get even more money.

Now, a good friend of mine made the decision to end his education at high school and has never approached a job as a career, bouncing from job to job. 17 years later and he works for the trash service making decent, but not great money. As cruel as it sounds, there are tens of thousands of people qualified for his job. Thus, he is not going to make as much as an accountant.

Now, there will always be anecdotal examples of the incompetent supervisor, but that is the exception. If we could get more people to make the sacrifices today for the benefits of the future, we would see the supply/demand gap closing at different professions and wages becoming more aligned. Until that day, the law of supply and demand will rule.

[hfojvt]

95. and I blew it by NOT majoring in accounting

yes, I know.

My mom told me once "I think you could do accounting".

I said back to her. "Mom, I KNOW I can do accounting. Because I have not only done accounting, I have actually written computer programs that did accounting."

Yes, that was my first job out of college.

I think a big part of it comes down from these guilds which set up these barriers to justify the high salaries of members of the guild. You majored in accounting. I majored in math and got my MA in economics.

And that apparently qualifies me only to shovel snow. I'd gladly take $10,000 a year LESS if I could work in finance. In a New York fucking second.

Oh, and my supervisor? She was a high school drop out.

The guy who just retired from the $90,000 a year job as head of the finance department? He only has a BA in economics.

The great part about being on the "good job train" (as I call it) is that it "qualifies" you to move from seat to seat on the train. Whereas those other people trying to climb on? Well, they just don't have the experience that I do. That's why they don't DESERVE the high paying job that I have.

[laundry_queen]

102. You are overlooking something

You are lucky enough to be smart enough to pass those exams.

I'm no dummy - I've had my IQ tested (very high, not genius high, but very high), I have a 3.911 GPA (3 more courses to graduate my Bcom) and I did a test (one of 4) to try to get my accounting designation here in Canada...failed it - I was lucky enough to get the test with the highest fail rate in YEARS. I've never failed a test before in my life, LOL (my exam advisor screwed up on the content). Sadly, because of the way the 3 accounting designations are consolidating into one, that was my last chance - I don't have another $1000 to take it again - and with my age I probably won't get my designation in the end. A big factor is that I'm a single parent. Try studying with 4 kids banging on your door.

Not everyone is cut out for those jobs you talk about. Not everyone CAN 'sacrifice' to go through school, not everyone is ABLE to do it, no matter how hard they work. They STILL deserve a decent living, enough money to pay for their kids' school and money for retirement, even if they aren't CPAs. No one is saying they should make the same as you or that you didn't or don't work hard...but screw supply and demand - everyone deserves a certain standard of living.

[joeglow3]

107. I know a lot of people who went to college and got degrees

Problem is they took the easy way out, got a "fun" degree and were smacked in the face when they realized there are not 200 new philosopher jobs in Nebraska each year to accomodate the graduates across all the local colleges. Quite a few of these people were smarter than me and had me telling them what did happen would happen.

Nobody is arguing against a basic standard of living. Eeven with the current compensation levels, we cannot find enough accountants to fill the demand. Lower the wages of accountants certainly won't change this.

[laundry_queen]

113. I never said lower the wages. Not once.

So why bring it up? BTW, I don't know anyone who got a 'fun' degree. Oh, I know one English major...that's the most 'fun' degree I've encountered around here, so I cannot relate. But yeah, those people shouldn't expect the same amount of money as an engineer or accounting major. I'm not sure where that came from though...or how it relates to what I wrote.

How about...when there's a desperate need for accountants, helping out those who want to be accountants? Our designation programs here don't WANT to help, because the people who run it are very happy about designations being an exclusive club. It means more money for them. Through the last 20 years or so they have made it progressively harder to become designated...new roadblocks every few years.

The yearly dues here are expensive, especially for someone like me. The tuition is really, really high if you go through the designation body which is why I went through a local University that has a transfer agreement. The cost of taking the tests is extreme, IMO, and I think they like to fail a high percentage because, well, they sure do make a lot of money if everyone has to take the exam 2-3 times before passing. They do everything they can to keep designations an exclusive club.

interestingly enough, some of them are pricing themselves out of the market. There are a lot more companies around here who are now looking for non-designated accountants because the designated accountants are charging too much for what they do. Many accounting majors have almost the same level of knowledge but are cheaper...they still make really good money though. That's probably the route I'll go and fill in that 'demand' for non-designated accountants.

[joeglow3]

117. I agree with making the tests harder

Accountants want to find themselves in the same sentence as Doctors and Attorneys.

[questionseverything]

79. exactly, the 160k to 250 k are not the problem

i would even extend that to 500k...they are not the ones controlling our airwaves or our congress

the problem is the trust fund babies...we need to create a higher tax bracket like at 10 mill a year, charge 2% more

and tax estates past 10 mill with a higher rate like 5% more.....the death tax is the fairest tax because the heirs have already enjoyed every privilege and headstart plus the dead do not miss it!

[JHB]

98. Why just one?

Last edited Fri Feb 7, 2014, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Ignoring the actual rates, here's a history of the number of tax brackets, also showing the number which affected (inflation-adjusted) taxable incomes above $250K and $500K. You'll notice how one of the sections is radically different from the others...




Here's an incomplete chart showing a sample of years side-by-side (again, inflation-adjusted), and even this leaves out some of the years in the early 20s and during the Depression when the top brackets reached into the tens of millions. I'm trying to find a way to make clear just how radically the tax structure was changed under Reagan (and supported by Democrats relying on big-money donors). One doesn't have to advocate for 50's level tax rates to see how the "spread" has been altered, with the low end getting some cuts and the high end getting a chain saw taken to it.

[questionseverything]

111. gotta start somewhr

xcellant graphs

shows where the real money is and you are highlighting the convo we need to be having

[JHB]

130. Yeah, they're something of a "if you can't find what you're looking for...

...make it yourself" endeavor.

[hunter]

63. Um, okay.

Personally, I don't trust anyone who's primary ambitions are wealth and power. Buy into a corrupt system and it will corrupt you.

Some human pursuits are worthy of high compensation; it takes a big ego, a powerful intellect, and quite a bit of ruthlessness to become the sort of person who can cut a tumor out of a living brain or transplant a liver. Few people like that become billionaires, but some of them would be in your 5%.

It's the people who are the expert marketers and political manipulators who become billionaires.

Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, the Koch brothers, these are predatory creatures of opportunity, the companies that made them wealthy are not centers of human innovation.

Sam Zell, fuck him. Creatures like him trap and then poison communities and corporations like spiders and then suck the wealth out.

[tenderfoot]

68. Yeah Mitt Romney, Charles and David Koch worked hard for their inheritance.

[LanternWaste]

85. Items one through six sound like a rather accurate description of Ken Lay...

Items one through six sound like a rather accurate description of Ken Lay...

(and let's try not to not confuse 'observation' with 'envy'.)

[TheFrenchRazor]

118. you mentioned what they have; here's what they don't have: a conscience. nt

[badtoworse]

120. What qualifies you to make that statement?

[TheFrenchRazor]

145. the proof is in the pudding, isn't it? nt

[notadmblnd]

128. You said the magic word, LUCK

I can guarantee you that someone gave all those hard working rich people a hand up. They all had opportunities that so many, many people could never hope to have handed to them.

They are lucky,they know the right people, they have inheritances, or trust funds, or the opportunity to gain educations.

[Incitatus]

148. Good points, but being in the top 5% is very different from being in the ownership class.

You can be in the 5% and be far from the billionaire type that goes to private Koch meetings to plot how to screw over the rest of the country to make billions more on top of the billions you already have.

[seabeckind]

7. Depends on your definition of work

I doubt if this man could keep up with most of those he looks down his nose at. Probably cry as soon as he had to sit in coach and didn't get a bag of pretzels or had to shovel his driveway and scrape his windshield before finding out the car doesn't start.

[KansDem]

41. "The billionaire chairman of Equity Group Investments ..."

In other words, he used other peoples' money, tax breaks and subsidies, and insider information to score rich deals and to enrich himself.

Yeah, that's "working hard."

[Rex]

8. Well, in all fairness, nobody said they had to be intelligent or compassionate.

Actually I would expect every single 1%er to be a complete narcissist and in a torrid love affair with money. That they failed humanity 101 is no surprise either.

NONE of the 1% works harder than a single mom with 3 jobs and 3 kids. Then again, I would not expect Sam Zell to understand what hard work is.

[City Lights]

16. What a steaming pile of bullshit.

Don't know whether to or .

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. sure they do ... harder at being sociopathic assholes.

[n2doc]

23. They sure do!

Yachtin' hard werk!

[kentuck]

24. They can't wait to get home and take a hot shower...

Last edited Thu Feb 6, 2014, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

and wash all that grease and grime and dirt off their sweaty bodies.

[rock]

25. Yes, like a big ol' turd being expelled from a fat man's asshole

when he has an equally large pilonidal cyst on his both cheeks. Now, that's working hard! He'll really enjoy the rewarding meal that is the fruition of such an exertion.

[BeyondGeography]

26. Thousands, 100s of thousands, million times harder

[eossipov]

27. ********** Urgent Action **********

Hi, I'm new here, but not to the movement it'self, I came specifically to see of you would post these two message in prominent areas where your members would be sure to see them and act upon them:

The first one is the best news we've had in a while now.
Yesterday in the late afternoon,

This Bill Introduced into the Senate YESTERDAY by Representative John Sarbanes and Senator Nancy Pelosi will effectively REVERSE CITIZENS UNITED AND RETURN THE GOVERNMENT TO THE PEOPLE
THIS BILL REMOVES MONEY FROM GOVERNMENT
Please share with everyone, Please tweet, write and fax your senators, representatives and send a letter to the editor of your towns newspaper asking them to Print this, asking people to also Tweet, Call, Fax, everyone! Including the President.
This is Monumental, and it's time to grab that bull by the horns and brand it ours!!
if you need any help with the phone call or a letter, just look me up here on chat.I should have a 'form' letter ready tomorrow. and Please , Remember to click on the link and sign this bill. If we can get a million people to sign a petition about the FCC/NSA issue, How many do you think we can get here?
Join me on UniteBlue on Twitter, or UniteBlue.org, and others. I am a firm believer of transparency and hence you will find me using this same nickname everywhere.
The Government By the People Act -- H.R. 20 -- was introduced in Congress today by John Sarbanes, Nancy Pelosi http://bit.ly/1avYYnL



I will post the second message on a new "reply" since I cannot send DM messages until I have posted 50 times, I cannot email an administrator; Please forward both my reply's to your administrators so they may locate these two notices in a proper location.

Thank you and let's keep moving forward
~elaine o.

[The Blue Flower]

37. Done

Thank you for posting.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. There are 2 threads about the act:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024450460

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024449537

[ananda]

30. They really believe this.

And it's a very insidious mindset.

[laundry_queen]

104. They do

the part that angers me the most is when they think everyone can just start up a business. There's a few 1%ers out there bellowing that idea from the rooftops. The most arrogant of them all had his mommy give him $10,000 to start up his business right out of college. Because most of us have parents who have $10,000 lying around to throw at some obscure business idea their kid has.

[treestar]

32. Maybe they should take some time off

sheesh. What kind of person would continue working so hard? The whole thing if bullshit. It's not even possible to work that hard. The hardest working people make the least money.

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. His wikipedia page

Sam Zell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Zell

He's an asswipe

[HughBeaumont]

34. A CNBC favorite . .. just like fellow shitpigs Ken Langone and Bernie Marcus.

Modern Billionaires seem to be the biggest bunch of insulting, contemptuous and downright heartless assfucks walking. Is there not a SINGLE ONE of them that's humble or grateful for their fortunes?

[Marr]

42. Our wealthy class is the most pampered, hypersensitive collection of crybabies on the planet.

They have entire television networks devoted to nothing but lionizing them and their scams. They have all of the money, and everything that goes with it.

And when the people who have nothing actually start pointing that out, these giant, wailing babies have the gall to compare themselves to the Jews of WW2 Germany.

[mstinamotorcity2]

43. The 1% are

clueless. trying to reason with Ridiculous Ignorance is beneath us!!

[unblock]

44. if you two factories too close together, just buy them and close one! don't be lazy!

poor people just walk by those factories day after day. they complain about the two factories but they don't do anything about it! how lazy of them! poor people should put the millions their parents gave them to good use!

[otohara]

47. The Children of The 1% Don't Work At All

They fly around the world - party, go to festivals, spend money, cruises, private planes, good drugs...

Fuck you Sam Zell

[riderinthestorm]

48. I'd love to see him spend just one week working two minimum wage jobs while taking mass transit

Then come back on and still say the 1% work harder.

He and his ilk have no idea what really hard work is...

[L0oniX]

49. No Mr Asshole. If we taxed you enough you'd have to produce more volume and hire more workers...

to make the same amount of money that you are used to getting for doing just about nothing.

[Earth_First]

59. The 1% wouldnt last till lunchtime in my line of work. nt

[upaloopa]

60. Man those dudes really think there shit doesn't stink.

Take a 1%er and an average guy or gal and put them in a survival mode. The 1%er would want the other to save their ass for them. Actually they would feel it is their right and the other's duty to save them.

[El_Johns]

61. His father was a successful grain broker in Poland, became a successful wholesale jewelry dealer

in the US.

Zell grew up in Highland Park IL.

The median income for a household in the city was $100,967, and the median income for a family was $117,235. Males had a median income of $83,121 versus $41,175 for females. The per capita income for the city was $55,331. About 2.3% of families and 3.8% of the population were below the poverty line, including 3.9% of those under age 18 and 3.1% of those age 65 or over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Park,_Illinois

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. He probably paid one of his flunkies to outline his "talking points".

[Orsino]

65. ...at justifying their parasitic existences." n/t

[Trillo]

71. They measure work's value by the dollars earned.

It's circular logic.

[alarimer]

73. Yeah, they work hard at shafting the rest of us.

And stealing from the government, etc.

Rich people are all dishonest grifters. They only get that way because of who they know, what family they were born into.

They have connections that allow them to circumvent the rules the rest of us have to adhere to.

[SomethingFishy]

74. The super rich don't "work" at all..

Work implies labor. You know actually doing something to earn your money. They 1% make money by having money. Very few of them are "self made".

My dad used to tell me that if I wanted to see whether or not a man "worked" for a living to look at his hands. I guarantee you Sam Zell has a fucking manicure.

[MadashellLynn]

131. My first thought

was he equates working a lot with working hard. If he spent 11 hours on an assembly line, or 6 hours on his feet asking assholes "do you want fries with that" for $7 an hour, or 12 hours bent over picking lettuce for $10 a day he might just get a clue what the world is really like for those who don't work hard like he does.

[Hekate]

76. There you have it: Poverty is a moral failing, a character flaw. All better now?

Like blaming the victims of rape and abuse (for their clothing choices or whatever), it allows those in power to believe they are righteous, and allows those without power (in this economic case, what remains of the middle class) to rest smugly assured that bad things won't happen to them because they work hard/follow the rules/don't dress like sluts/are good people whom God loves.

So when bad things DO happen to good people, it's all their own fault. See how that works?

[SMC22307]

81. Knitting needles ready! (n/t)

[Cleita]

82. On the occasions I had to work as an assistant/secretary to the CEO of

certain companies I noticed how hard they worked.

One of the attributes of a successful executive they told me was a clean desk because they knew how to delegate. I even worked for one who made me write all his correspondence and all he did was sign it. His staffers did all his work.

Otherwise I guess getting up and getting dressed in the morning was the most effort most of them did. The rest of the day was spent talking on the telephone, having "business" lunches often in a country club. Some afternoons were spent on the golf links or playing racquetball. They were driven everywhere in a town car or limo.

Their heaviest weight was the responsibility of making decisions, but actually most of the decisions were made by the boards of directors and he followed them. I know because I often had to sit through those meetings taking notes.

Yes, it's good to be king.

[SomethingFishy]

87. I had a conversation with a friend yesterday

where we were discussing bosses. Over the years we have both worked many jobs and had many bosses. We came to this conclusion. Some of the bosses were very nice, and some were complete assholes. But the one thing they all had in common, was they were all totally and utterly useless. And there was always someone taking up the slack and making them look good.

[Cleita]

89. I can't imagine anyone's eight hour day being worth hundred of thousands of

dollars in one day.

[Jesus Malverde]

94. Zell is an interesting character...

He famously unloaded his real estate portfolio right before the market tanked and switched to the totally unrelated industry buying the LATimes.

He's a 3d chess player for sure.

[Cleita]

96. Or he works on insider information.

Just something to think about.

[eossipov]

100. It is Accurate to blame those whose actions resulted in distruction.

They are being pummelled because they have used their money to corrupt even our Supreme Court, or was Citizen United not about corporations being given citizenship.

Because they specifically orchestrated the housing market (even admitted to it) to increase their profits and put millions of americans either homeless or in shelters or living with other families including Disabled Veterans which gave the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

It's time we get the money out of politics and return america to a place with pride and integrity. imho.
I never would have believed the Supreme Court would even be corruptible, that's why they have lifetime appointments. Personally, Its not that they have money, its what they do with it. And Oppression is exactly what they do with it.

"If justice is not applied equally to all people, what remains is oppression"

~elaine

[HangOnKids]

119. Indeed!

Welcome!

[liberal N proud]

101. They really believe they EARNED IT!

It is hard work worrying about all that money you made on someone else's back

[mike_c]

105. pitchforks and torches....

Oh, and one of these:

[Kurovski]

108. Yeah, well, then why are my closets still in disarray if he's workin so hard?

[HangOnKids]

132. Holy Shit I Feel You Brother

[Kurovski]

149. Hey, sister!

Happy upcoming birthday, my love.

[Nye Bevan]

109. I know people who are rich because they worked their asses off building a business.

I also know people who are rich because they inherited wealth. There isn't a general rule here.

[nyquil_man]

121. If each of us started with nothing and lived in a vacuum then, yes,

the accomplishments of the 1% would be truly impressive.

That, however, is not the case.

[Javaman]

123. if the whole world emulated the 1%, as this halfwit suggests...

it would crash and burn with in minutes of that happening.

I think he's confusing work ethic with nice things.

another rich stooge that has forgotten what it's like to be normal.

[sendero]

124. Sure the 1% work harder....

... maybe, some of them. But not 1,000,000,000 times harder, that is physically impossible.

Their wealth is dependent on controlling the playing field to their advantage, an advantage they are going to have to lose.

[lostincalifornia]

127. I saw the jerk was on Bloomberg yesterday making an ass out of himself. He started to rant about

how the ACA was far worse than anything Christie might have done.

When asked if Buffet or Gates had asked if he wanted to contribute to their cause against world poverty he said, no, and no one tells him what to do with his money.

He is a real piece of work. This is what the repuke party has become today, I got mine, and screw all of you

[Gothmog]

129. I know a number of very rich people and they are mainly lucky

Being in the right place at the right time is the key.

[anneboleyn]

133. Andrea Tantaros on Fox (regarding the 99%): "they sit around eating fried chicken"

Honestly this is how they think -- she is arguing on The Five that because of Obamacare "men" (who are not members of the 1%) will "sit around eating fried chicken." That seems very reasonable (sarcasm alert!!!) -- according to these idiots the lazy masses will all quit working and sit around eating fried chicken because they have access to affordable healthcare that isn't tied to their jobs. Whereas the 1% have such a perfect work ethic, they "work harder," are "bigger factors" (they matter more than ordinary working people?), etc.

I would love to see one of these assholes spend a month working in a West Virginia mine. We'll see what hard workers they are then...

[DemForLife]

137. watch out ...Karma's a bitch!

You rich fuckin fuck! You don't know the first thing about hard work. You have never really worked a day in your rich insulated life. Mark my words, people are tired of being shit on by the likes of people like you. The day will arrive when all the rich fucks are pissing and shitting themselves when the uprising finally happens. I just hope I'm around to see it.

[GoCubsGo]

139. Yeah. Bankrupting the Chicago Tribune is hard work.

Dug the Cubs into an even deeper hole, too. Fucker.

[Liberalynn]

140. BULL CRAP !

[Texasgal]

141. Fuck you Zell!

I work my ass of off! That's all I do is WORK!

[TheKentuckian]

143. Did you know some of our soldiers are so lazy that they qualify for food stamps?

What is up with those shiftless fucking coal minors?

Yeah, fuckbag your nurse isn't a billionaire because she is lazy.

[MisterP]

144. sooooo what he's saying is that people should be paid precisely according to how hard they work?