Closing arguments begin in Michael Dunn murder trial

[Tommy_Carcetti]

A live link:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/02/live-coverage-loud-music-murder-trial-day-4/

[alsame]

1. State closing argument starting now. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

2. Bumping yours up Tommy

[alsame]

3. I think she did a good, clear

explanation of the different charges.

[avebury]

5. What are all the charges on the table? nt

[alsame]

6. Murder 1, Murder 2 and

Manslaughter.

[MoonRiver]

7. Also 3 counts attempted 1st degree murder.

[alsame]

8. I missed that, thanks nt

[independentpiney]

4. Thanks for the heads up and link nt

[Jamastiene]

9. Hope this jury gets it right, unlike some other juries. n/t

[Sissyk]

10. The prosecutor is doing great.

She's making sense and she is relating to the jury.

[MoonRiver]

11. Yes she is

[alsame]

14. I agree. nt

[Blue_Tires]

19. Makes me wonder just why they fucked up the last case so badly...

[Sissyk]

20. I don't know, Blue_Tires,

but they did.

I think this time, the fact that Dunn shot from his car with no evidence that Jordan was outside the SUV, plus the fact he shot as the SUV was going away, and the fact that Dunn RAN FROM THE SCENE with no reason to.

Also, when narcissistic assholes can't help themselves from taking the stand, they are gonna be convicted.

[alsame]

22. IMO it was always a

half-hearted state case to cover up how badly the Sanford PD handled the shooting.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. Doing a good job IMHO.

By the way, her voice reminds me of Ellen DeGeneres.

Whereas her co-counsel, John Guy, has the exact same voice as Kevin Costner.

The things I notice when I have the screen minimized.

[alsame]

24. LOL, that's true!! nt

[Sissyk]

25. I agree about their voices.

However, I've never understood why the majority was all that over Guy. He did a piss poor job in the Zimmerman trial, and he could have done much better in the Dunn trial. He ain't all that.

[arthritisR_US]

36. I totally agree! nt

[MerryBlooms]

12. This case is so heartbreaking, it's been tough to follow and not cry.

I hope the jury comes back guilty/first degree.

[arthritisR_US]

37. If they don't then justice will have been thwarted

again

[alsame]

13. Why did the kids go back

to the gas station? I missed that part of the testimony.

[MoonRiver]

15. I think they were meeting the police there. But I'm not compeletely sure.

[alsame]

16. Ok, that makes sense. nt

[avebury]

17. The driver who had stolen a car in the past

was on probation. He was not about to do anything that would mess with that.

[alsame]

18. Thanks nt

[Boom Sound 416]

32. I thought it was because their buddy was dying

[alsame]

35. Yes, Wolfson clarified this in

her closing - they went back to the gas station to get help after they saw the shooter drive away.

[arthritisR_US]

74. To get help once Dunn left, I believe. nt

[Swede Atlanta]

21. I watched various clips of his testimony yesterday on MSNBC

It was clear he had been meticulously rehearsed. He used all the right words from the "stand your ground" law which was clearly intended to help the defense in closing arguments.

He stated all of the buzz words such as "reasonably feared for my life", etc. Those are in fact prongs in the Florida stand your ground defense.

But there are so many holes in his lying story as to make it almost laughable. Unfortunately recent jury verdicts in Florida don't give me much encouragement that this murderer will be taken off the streets for the rest of his life.

He testified he told his fiancee that he had feared for his life and that he had seen what looked like the barrel of a gun. She testified he never said any such thing to her. He didn't call 911 although in testimony he said he feared for his life from the car full of "thugs and gangsters". If he really feared for his life he would have called 911 right away. As well he left his gun in the car after they got back to the hotel. If he feared for his life, i.e. that the gangsters were going to follow him or find him, he would have had the gun with him in the hotel.

Then although not calling 911 until the next day he ordered a pizza. He claimed he ordered it to calm his fiancé's upset stomach. Hmmm....pizza is not what I would eat to calm a nervous or upset stomach.

I am hoping the jury was able to see through his lies and will finally do justice. Perhaps after that the Florida legislature will scratch their heads and balls and do something about the abomination of a defense that stand your ground represents.

[alsame]

26. He is so obviously

lying and rehearsed. I really hope this is a jury that can see through all the BS.

[MoonRiver]

28. Seriously, I don't see how they can possibly not convict him of Murder One.

If they do, it will be a case of jury nullification, IMO.

[alsame]

40. Me either. But after the

Zimmerman verdict, I can't be so confident

[MoonRiver]

44. That worries me too

but this case is a lot more straight forward.

[Sissyk]

53. Here's on the big differences in my mind.

In Zimmerman's trial, he didn't take the stand so he didn't have to undergo cross examination. The tapes they played put him in the best possible light because the cops really didn't think he was guilty of anything except self defense. Common sense would tell the jury that you are going to make inconsistent statements to some degree over that much time and interviews. We all knew he was guilty, but the Prosecutors did not prove it and the jury never heard what we heard that wasn't allowed in court.

In this case, the narcissistic asshole wasn't going to stay off the stand. They can't. They think in their minds they can convince everyone (yes, everyone) in the room that they are innocent. In reality, they are their own worst enemy because it comes across to the jury as fake, lies, and an agenda.

A good thing for Guy that Dunn took the stand, and that his co-prosecutor gave the best closing argument (probably) of her life.

[MoonRiver]

54. Yeah, that was Jodi Arias' big mistake.

Of course when somebody claims self-defense, and there is no evidence other than their blatant lies, s/he pretty much has to take the stand to "explain." Usually back fires though.

[TorchTheWitch]

64. Dunn reminded me a lot of Arias

Though not as loony. Both so narcissistic they really believe they're always the smartest person in the room, and no matter what they say and how stupid it is that they can fool anyone... they're always truly surprised at not being believed.

[MoonRiver]

67. I saw those similarities also.

Dunn will undoubtedly be blown over when he is convicted of Murder One. I really believe that is going to happen, despite the trial taking place in FL.

[Sissyk]

70. Exactly!

I think all of us that followed the JA trial "knows" narcissistic! They are soooo much alike.

[alsame]

60. This is very true. I think there's also

the possibility that he felt emboldened after Zimmerman got away with murder, so he decided to testify.

To me, his testimony was contrived, rehearsed and defied common sense. I just hope the jury heard it the same way.

[spin]

56. I feel there is an excellent chance that Dunn will be found guilty. ...

That is why his attorneys put him on the witness stand. They had little to lose if he screwed up under examination as there was so little chance that he would walk free.

In looking though the approximately 250 SYG cases complied by the Tampa Bay Times in its excellent interactive report, I can see a lot of examples that show the law needs to be better written in order to eliminate the confusion and ambiguity created by the wording.
http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

If you are hoping the the SYG law will be overturned then you will likely be very disappointed. When the state legislature meets this year there is some possibility that the law will be updated but most likely nothing will change. The SYG law is extremely popular in Florida and Republicans enjoy a strong majority of seats in both the state house and senate.

I live in Florida and have a concealed weapons permit. I support the basic concept of the law and feel that if I in a place that I have every right to be and am attacked by an individual who intends to put me in the hospital for a long stay or six feet under and has either the weapon or the overwhelming physical strength to do so, I should not be required to first retreat before I can defend myself.

The law should not encourage me to seek out a confrontation and escalate it to the point where my opponent attacks me. If I draw my weapon and my opponent flees, I should have no right to pursue and kill him as the threat to my life and health has ended. The law should also not apply if I am engaged in an illegal activity such as dealing drugs.

[MoonRiver]

68. What I still don't understand

is why self-defense wasn't adequate.

[spin]

71. While it isn't often discussed...

The main advantage of a successful SYG argument is that if there is no doubt that an individual acted appropriately in using force to stop an attack that threatened his life or health, he can be immune from both criminal prosecution and civil action.

2013 Florida Statutes

CHAPTER 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

***snip***

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
History.—s. 4, ch. 2005-27.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2013/Chapter776/All

A criminal prosecution pushed by an overzealous prosecutor or a civil action could easily bankrupt an individual who was attacked through no fault of his own and decided to fight back rather than end up in a hospital or a graveyard.

Of course it is essential that a SYG law must be properly worded or it will be abused and miscarriages of justice will occur.

[bettyellen]

62. this is what is weird about SYG- it is supposed to be used to avoid unfair trials- but you have

defendants like Zimmerman and this guy referring to it as part of their defense. In my mind, if you aren't able to avoid a trial by invoking it, it was shown not to apply- you shld not be afforded any benefit of it. But, it was included in the jury instructions for the Zimmerman juries. They were also racist and stupid, but I think that may have had an impact as well.
I don;t understand how they are allowed to even refer to it. Unless it's to say it does NOT apply.

[spin]

72. That's a solid point. I agree totally. (n/t)

[bettyellen]

86. I was shocked to see it was somehow included in the jury's instructions for Zimmerman.

I don't think that should be legal.

[kcr]

91. They were included because it's the law

That was part of SYG legislation.

[bettyellen]

92. I don't get it- if they do notget the benefit of the doubt it was SYG, why should they get

second crack at it. I knew the law sucked, but this is ridiculous.
Has anyone ever lost a SYG hearing and still had this used in jury instructions? I wonder.

[kcr]

94. They shouldn't have

THe defense lawyers convinced the judge to remove a clause based on a faulty reading of the law. THe gun nutters who claim SYG had nothing to do with the Zimmerman case are wrong.

[spin]

95. I suspected that but was unable to verify it on the net. (n/t)

[alsame]

27. Jury Composition

I posted this in yesterday's thread but will repeat here for those who missed it.

12 will be seated, 4 will be alternates

[IMG][/IMG]

[MoonRiver]

29. That was an awesome closing by this young prosecutor!

[avebury]

30. I hope it gets posted to youtube so that

I can listen to the whole thing. What I heard was very well done. Are they on recess until the defense provides their closing?

[MoonRiver]

31. Yes, they are on recess. Not sure when trial will resume.

I've got an eye appt., then errands to run so you guys fill me in when I get back!

[alsame]

33. Judge said they would have

an approximate 1 hour lunch break. So they should be back around 1 pm Eastern.

[TorchTheWitch]

66. see "croakerqueen123" on YouTube

She posts everything from live streamed trials of note...

http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123/videos

She's really fast getting them uploaded, too.

[Boom Sound 416]

34. It was perfect

[Boom Sound 416]

38. Kicking - back in session

[avebury]

39. How long does the defense get for its closing? nt

[Boom Sound 416]

41. As long as they want

And I believe prosecution gets a last word in the confines of the defense closing

[alsame]

42. It seems like the defense is

basing their entire case on a missing gun. The missing gun that Dunn never once mentioned to his fiancee

[MoonRiver]

43. Some kids have imaginary playmates.

Dunn has imaginary guns.

[MoonRiver]

45. Just heard defense concluded closing argument.

Prosecution up next.

I was not able to listen to defense. How did they do?

[Boom Sound 416]

46. I heard all but the end.

Unless I missed it, he never alluded to why Dunn never called the police.

He pointed out discrepancies in the states witnesses to a fairly good degree, but that was it.

Stayed away from fiancé for the most part

[MoonRiver]

47. Probably did the best he could with the crap case he has.

[Boom Sound 416]

48. Pretty much.

That the rub in this one

If Dunn is telling the, then he calls the cops everytime.

If not, then something is missing from his story.

[alsame]

49. He spent a lot of time trying to

raise the possibility that the boys did have a gun and they trashed it when they left the scene for 3 minutes. Cops never searched the woods, dumpsters, etc.

Also tried to prove that none of them immediately called 911 and that Jordan's position was not what was claimed (I missed some of that part so I'm not sure if he was saying Jordan was exiting the SUV or not).

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. Kevin Costn--Err, I mean John Guy on the clock. nt

[MoonRiver]

52. Guy is giving the final prosecution closing.

Wish it were Wolfson.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. I missed the initial closing for the prosecution ...

but I heard the Defense's and I'm listening to the Prosecutor's rebuttal.

From experience ... the defense's impression of its case can be determined by the number of time the defense defines "Beyond a reasonable doubt" compared to the number of times that the defense recites discrepancies in testimony.

[1StrongBlackMan]

58. The State's Rebuttal Closing ...

is good; but I fear his inflections sound melodramatic and affected.

[Boom Sound 416]

59. Yeah he's a little over the top

He walked it back yesterday.

I think we get our forks ready though. This turkey is done

[MoonRiver]

61. Judge about to give jury instructions.

Then, verdict watch!

[onecent]

63. I have wondered WHY they don't bring up the issue of waiting until the next day

to (well he didn't even call 911 THEN)...but he was obviously drunk IMO, that's the reason.

As in past trials in Florida, HIS life is over whether they find him guilty or not...but I hope they find
him guilty because it's very obvious.

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. The State did raise it in their rebuttal closing. eom.

[alsame]

69. Jury instructions done. Waiting

for word that a foreperson has been chosen, then deliberations start.

[MoonRiver]

73. Just heard there are 2 AA women on the jury.

YES!

[arthritisR_US]

75. Best news I've heard today :) nt

[alsame]

76. Per HLN, the jury just asked to see

the store surveillance tape again. (The one with the fiancee inside as the shooting occurs).

[MoonRiver]

77. Yes, and there is great debate about what that means.

Pundits seem to think the jury is looking for the pre-meditation part of Murder One.

[alsame]

78. Let's hope. nt

[arthritisR_US]

80. How does that question figure into pre-meditation? nt

[MoonRiver]

83. I think it has to do with the sequence of shots.

There were several initial shots, then a long pause before the second volley. Speculation is that this pause represents premeditation. Dunn could have stopped after the first shots, which he states were based on fear of being killed, but he didn't. So he had to think about and plan the second round of shots. Does that make sense??

[arthritisR_US]

84. Oh, ok...that makes sense, thanks! We may

get an early verdict

[MoonRiver]

85. Hoping so!

Murder One baby!

[arthritisR_US]

87. That's what I want! My daughter and I were

so horrified when GZ got away with murder.

[MoonRiver]

88. I know what you mean. My whole family was in shock.

What a miscarriage of justice.

[arthritisR_US]

89. That's exactly how we felt and we cried for his

family and the injustice. SYG is an unofficial open hunting season on minorities. Such a stupid law and I'm so hoping this is the reality check on it. It should be flushed down the toilet with the racists, jmo.

[Boom Sound 416]

90. ...

Snip


Of the 133 people who have used the “Stand Your Ground” defense, 76 were white. Forty (less than 52 percent) of these individuals were considered by a court of law as being justified in their use of deadly force without retreating, to protect their lives. Twenty-five of these 76 people were found in a court of law to be unjustified in their usage of such defense and were subsequently found guilty. Eleven cases involving whites who used the “Stand Your Ground” defense are still pending in the courts. Out of whites who used the SYG defense, less than 52 percent were found to be not guilty.


Forty-four African-Americans have used the “Stand Your Ground” defense in Florida. Of these 44 cases, it was determined by a court of law that 24 (55 percent) were justified in their use of deadly force. There were 11 African-Americans out of the 44 cases who were found guilty, while 11 cases involving the original 44 are still pending in the legal system.

In Florida, since passage and inception of the “Stand your Ground” law, less than 52 percent of the whites who used it as a defense were found to be justifiable in their actions and 55 percent of the African-Americans who used the same defense were found to be justified in their actions. African-Americans have successfully used the Stand Your Ground Law, successfully as their legal defense more than any other race (percentage wise) since its inception.


Firearms-related violent crime in Florida has dropped 33 percent in just four years, from 2007 to 2011. Coincidentally, over the same time period concealed carry permits rose a staggering 90 percent. All forms of violent crime have dropped 26 percent during this same time period.





--

[arthritisR_US]

93. I gather you are a fan of the SYG law. nt

[Boom Sound 416]

96. Fan is not the term I would use.

I thought you might like some of the data.

[arthritisR_US]

97. Indeed. nt

[alsame]

79. Jury is done for the night. Will see

video tomorrow starting at 10 am.

[Sancho]

81. I haven't been able to watch the trial...did the boys in the car testify?

All we get on the news are bits and pieces.

Down here, I'll bet he is found not guilty.

[alsame]

82. Yes, all three testified. I didn't see any

of it, but here's a link to some clips.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/witnesses-describe-shooting-of-jordan-davis/-/475880/24345994/-/138fsl8z/-/index.html