WTF is wrong with that Dunn jury?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

Last edited Fri Feb 14, 2014, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

How fucking hard could it be. The guy murdered Jordan, plain and simple. Why can't they see that?

FUCK! I bet he gets away with it!

Stupid Florida jury fucks!


Edited: I remove the word "stupid" from my title because hopefully I will have proved to be impatient and they will have convicted this racist gun-fucker Dunn of 1st Degree Murder and several counts of attempted murder. Keeping my fingers crossed that justice will be served for young Jordan who, even if he was trash-talking, didn't deserve to die for it.

[B2G]

1. And you'll think they're brilliant if they convict

I suppose a thoughtful deliberation is too much to ask for.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

4. That's my whole point!

They watched the same trial I did! So why do they need "thoughtful" deliberation? He MURDERED that boy. MURDERED him!!!

What's the hell is there to think about????

It's those goddamned people on the jury not wanting to convict a white man for killing a black kid!

[yeoman6987]

10. Oh come on

First of all they have to go through all the paperwork and they also have to read through all the charges. They have only been in the jury room yesterday morning and today. You act like it is a walk in the park. It isn't. I would rather they do the requirements that are intended. They still will come up with a guilty verdict on something.

[geek tragedy]

16. No, they were in all day yesterday and the full morning before.

They're approaching 20 hours of deliberations. Longer than Zimmermann.

[yeoman6987]

33. Longer than Zimmermann.

Yieks. I had no idea. For some reason I thought Zimmerman was like a week. Maybe it just seemed that way.

[geek tragedy]

37. longer than Zimmermann, longer than Casey Anthony.

the "scary Negro" defense is never a bad one for a white defendant in the old confederacy.

all it takes is one.

[yeoman6987]

40. Oh My God!

Well for the heart attach you just gave me, I am giving you a heart....lol.

[geek tragedy]

56. hopefully yours will be working by the end of the day, along

with the jury's brains.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

27. I just can't believe their first vote didn't settle it. I've never seen a more cut and dried public

court case. How anyone could not see that Dunn murdered that boy and not convict on 1st Degree Murder charges on the first vote just blows my mind! Paperwork doesn't take 16 hours!

[RKP5637]

92. Much as with the Zimmerman case, I ask myself what would have happened if Dunn had

not been there.

I think guys like Zimmerman and Dunn provoke situations that only existed because they were present. In short, I think they're looking for trouble, and the FL law gives them a license to kill.

IMO the law leads to incitement of violence because those wired like Zimmerman/Dunn will feel empowered to kill to defend their sense of respect, something like that.

Both, in my book, are guilty as hell!

.

[geek tragedy]

17. no, they'll have grasped the obvious if they convict on murder.

it should not take 20 hours to grasp the obvious

[former9thward]

66. Mr. Expert, How many murder juries have you served on?

[geek tragedy]

67. and that has what to do with what? any non-white supremacist can look at the facts

here and take about 15 seconds of reflection to conclude that Dunn is not only a racist gun-humper, but a murderer.

[former9thward]

72. That simple minded answer shows why you would never serve on a jury.

Thank goodness.

[geek tragedy]

73. You don't see this as an obvious case of guilt?

Oh wait, Dunn's one of your fellow gun lovers. Of course not.

[former9thward]

76. As a lawyer I know not to follow cases over the internet.

And for those posters who think they have watched the trial on tv that is a total joke. They haven't seen even half of what goes on. The pre-trial motions, depositions, conferences with judge, etc. I also don't know the facts. And neither do you. I don't know what defenses the judge has not allowed to be presented or what witnesses have not been allowed to testify.

But who cares about any of that? Let's just have a Roman circus where the crowd gives and up or down to life or death.

If this was a slam dunk case it would have never gotten to trial.

[geek tragedy]

79. translation: you don't think Dunn is guilty.

And yes I do know the facts, the entire fucking trial has been televised with all facts and documents released. he emptied his gun into a car after some young black kids gave him attitude. Even as they drove away, even though he was never in any danger. And then he fled the scene, had a drink, and a pizza, and walked his dog.

The only way someone could avoid finding Dunn is a murdering sack of shit is if they think all young black men are inherently dangerous. Which is a common trait amongst gun-humpers.

[former9thward]

83. I just told you the entire trial was not televised.

Less than half was. In reality the trial starts with indictment and covers everything that happens after that. You haven't seen anything.

[geek tragedy]

94. There's overwhelming and indisputable proof of guilt

to any that are willing to open their eyes.

Boozed-up racist gun-fucker runs into black teens who give him attitude while playing rap music, he empties his gun into their vehicle despite a complete lack of any threat to him.

[pintobean]

103. Anyone could have seen everything the jurors saw.

That's what matters here. They aren't privy to anything pretrial unless it was introduced at trial.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

148. The public actually sees more evidence than the jury because some evidence gets precluded.

The jury certainly has enough evidence to convict Dunn, the protestations of gun humpers notwithstanding.

[bettyellen]

108. you have no idea how much others here know- honestly jurors miss a fuck ton all the time.

people are sort of disgusted with jurors' admitted ignorance after several well publicized trials. Like it or not, we have more info tht they do. Even written jury instructions are ignored by jurors. Jurors aren't saints or geniuses, and the system is far from perfect.

[former9thward]

126. Then lets do trials by internet mob.

That should work out well.

[WinkyDink]

132. "Mob"?

[former9thward]

136. The poster who I was replying to said ordinary jurors were idiots.

And that people following the case knew more than they did. So yeah that is mob justice. Do you defend that since you are jumping in to defend that poster?

[rustydog]

159. Ok Mr. Attorney, do y'all put words in peoples words or just you?

From opening post to your post here, I see absolutely no mention of the word idiot to describe jurors by the OP. You use the word, not the OP.


The poster is very inflammatory with his anti-gun stance and appears to be the type who would do a good old-fashioned lynching if given the chance...but the problem is, as an attorney, you took the bait!

Let the jury decide this. In their own due time.

[former9thward]

169. "Stupid Florida jury fucks"

"jurors admitted ignorance". I characterized those statements as calling the jurors idiots. What did they really mean? That they are geniuses?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

85. This ^^^^ nt

[bettyellen]

100. " If this was a slam dunk case" where would it have gone?

Lots of people have seen the defendant lie, because he has three stories. Are you pissed off no one finds any of the three stories he told credible? Or finds everyone else but him credible?

[former9thward]

130. Why would I be "pissed off" about what anyone thinks about his stories?

What a weird bizarre statement. Are you in favor of mob rule? You seem to be. And who appointed you to speak for everyone? Or did you appoint yourself...

[bettyellen]

158. "If this was a slam dunk case"- please clarify,

Where would it go, if not to court? That made no sense- please explain?

[former9thward]

167. Slam dunk cases settle.

The Defendant takes a plea -- and there is always a plea.

[840high]

128. Thank you.

[WinkyDink]

131. "a Roman circus"? Let your opinion out with that one.

[former9thward]

133. Do you favor mob rule?

[WinkyDink]

138. No. But then again, I haven't read anyone calling for it. Only YOU are characterizing opposing

views that hyperbolic way.

[former9thward]

139. I see posts attacking our juror system.

This is before any verdict has even been given. The alternative is mob justice. There is no other.

[WinkyDink]

154. You need reading comprehension. Nobody is "attacking our juror" SYSTEM.

[rustydog]

160. You are an attorney? really

[former9thward]

168. No matter what I say you will say 'Anybody can say anything on the internet.'

So why ask a question that you will attack no matter what the answer?

[BlueCaliDem]

151. No. But I don't favor "white man privilege" rule, either.

And that's exactly what's happening here. In the U.S. Lady Justice is definitely NOT blind.

Were Dunn a black man and the kid a white kid, you BET this trial would be over - two days ago, and the black man would get life in prison, perhaps even the DP.

Defending a proven flawed justice system just because you're a lawyer doesn't negate the fact that our system has been proven to be corrupt and tilted favorably and exclusively toward Whites. Stats don't lie, Mr. Lawyer, no matter how much you would wish they would.

[Bonduel]

173. Do you mean like OJ Simpson?

Not a white kid but a white person

[BlueCaliDem]

174. No. More like Trayvon Martin. eom

[thucythucy]

152. So you're saying a jury would see "pre-trial motions,

depositions, conferences with the judges, etc."? That's odd. Why would a jury see "a pre-trial motion?" How would that even be possible, since "pre-trial motions" by definition happen before the trial, presumably before the jury is even seated? Same thing with conferences with the judge. You're saying that juries get to convene in judges' chambers during conferences with attorneys?

I've attended a number of trials, criminal and civil, and I've never heard a judge run down the "pre-trial" motions for the jury, nor have I ever seen a jury invited into judicial chambers to hear a "conference" with a judge. Even in the courtroom, what I've seen is a judge ask attorneys to "approach the bench" so they can confer without the jury hearing.

If a trial is being broadcast on TV or live-streamed, it would seem to me virtual spectators would hear and see pretty much everything a jury does, with the exception of being able personally to handle physical evidence.

I thought the whole point of "pre-trial motions" was to get a ruling on whether or not certain evidence or lines of argument can be presented to a jury. Wouldn't it defeat the whole purpose of a "pre-trial" motion and ruling, to allow a jury access to the particulars?

[1StrongBlackMan]

86. Actually ...

In my experience, the simple-minded the answer, the MORE likely the person is to serve on a jury. I sought only those that could connect the dots (I laid out) without thinking too deeply. But that was years ago and never in a murder trial.

[former9thward]

90. I understand.

But if someone had given a judge, the answer the poster did to me, that judge would never allow him/her on a jury.

[1StrongBlackMan]

96. One day we can trade horror stories ...

I was amazed at whom a judge wouldn't strike, including someone who answered: "If the cop said he did it, he must have done something wrong!"

(I got real nervous, because he wasn't the 5th worst person in the pool.

[rustydog]

161. Now part of your reply makes some sense!

The potential juror must show that even with what information they may have at the moment, are they capable of viewing all evidence with an open mind?

I would believe the OP's mind was probably made up (I would be tempted to lean that way based on what I have seen) after learning the only gun involved was the defendants and the victims had no weapons in their vehicle or thrown in the immediate vicinity.

[Swede Atlanta]

82. Respectfully, it is clear you have never served on a jury in a murder case.....

I was foreman on an armed robbery and attempted murder case about 4 years ago.

If the jury takes their responsibility seriously it takes quite a bit of time to reach a verdict.

First thing is they elect a foreman and agree on a process. The next thing they must do is to read the jury instructions and make sure no one has any questions. if they do the foreman will request a clarification from the judge.

He has been charged with 1st Degree Murder and I believe the jury can consider two lesser and included charges of 2nd Degree Murder and Voluntary Manslaughter. Then he is charged with 3 counts of attempted murder.

The jury must look at the legal elements or requirements for 1st Degree Murder and determine if the facts support the charge. If not they move onto the next lesser charge. This is a lengthy process because each charge has specific elements or requirements.

If they find for any of these charges they then have to assess the murder and/or attempted murder charges against the affirmative defense of stand your ground. The defense also has several prongs that must be satisfied before the defense can nullify a finding of guilty.

Only when they have gone through all of this can they advise the judge they have reached a verdict.

The jury on the case on which I sat took 4.5 days to find the defendant guilty of armed robbery and attempted murder. We worked very long and hard to be sure we were following the judge's instructions and applying the law to the facts/evidence.

While I agree with you Dunn is guilty, he is presumed innocent until found guilty. We know our system is not perfect and we do convict and sometimes even execute innocent defendants so I would rather the jury take it's time and get it right.

[geek tragedy]

84. i work plaintiff's side, presuming innocence not my strong point

come to think of it, will have to use that line if I ever get called in for jury duty

[1StrongBlackMan]

88. +1. eom

[X_Digger]

101. Thank you for a thoughtful post and for your thoughtful service in our judicial system.

Too many people today seem to be hung up on what they see on Law and Order, expecting cases to be resolved between the 'dum-dum's.

[Eleanors38]

122. Thanks. Due process don't get no respect. nt

[Warpy]

2. I wonder what sort of instructions the judge gave them

since that's basically what got Zimmie off.

When somebody's life is in the balance, I prefer a jury that takes its time.

Unfortunately, in this case it could very well be a hung jury because one bigot won't vote to convict a white guy who murdered a black man.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

6. Let's not jump to conclusions.

Eventually, there'll be some sort of resolution: Either guilty of all the most serious charges, guilty of the lesser charges, a hung jury, or acquittal.

Just let it play out. It will.

[Warpy]

9. The word "could" indicates speculation

It was very clearly indicated. Do read a little more carefully because speculation is hardly jumping to any sort of conclusion.

[geek tragedy]

30. hung jury seems most likely--when you have an obvious case of guilt with really

long deliberations, that often means one dumbfuck juror holding out for acquittal.

See, e.g.:

http://carloz.newsvine.com/_news/2013/11/06/21337338-hung-jury-in-rape-case-due-to-one-juror-saying-victim-deserved-it

see also the infamous corona del mar rape case where it took multiple trials to get 12 people to unanimously agree that forced violation of an unconscious woman is rape.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

43. A hung jury would be bad but not a worst case scenario.

They could retry. And if there's sufficient enough outrage (which I think there would be, given the evidence), it might actually push them to retry.

There are many times where a hung jury is as good as an acquittal. For example, in the John Edwards corruption case. But in that case, there was only one jury voting guilty and all others voting to acquit, so prosecutors knew a retrial would almost certainly be a waste of time and money.

[geek tragedy]

47. worst case would be acquittal, which would necessitate a federal

occupation of Florida in order to confiscate all private firearms, as it would amount to legalizing lynching.

there would have to be a retrial in case of a hung jury, with prosecutors needing to screen any and all white racists out of the jury pool.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. Biggest mistake by the Zimmerman prosecution team:

It wasn't anything they did in the presentation of the evidence.

It was not being able to strike out Juror B37.

Even before the trial started, I read where she described the very peaceful protests about Zimmerman not being initially charged as "race riots." And I knew from the get-go she could be a problem. And she was. Within a day of the verdict, she said she was planning a book deal. Who does that?

[geek tragedy]

62. though, in fairness, if a juror consciously determines to lie their way onto a jury, tough

to catch that.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

64. Happened in a DWI manslaughter case down here.

Juror lied in jury questioning. The defendant was convicted. But it was thrown out on appeal after it was found out the juror lied. The juror was slapped with contempt charges and a 6 month jail term.

[JJChambers]

89. I am not sure about that

I have a hard time blaming one juror when it was a unanimous not guilty verdict. I blame the verdict on a combination of a crappy Florida law, a terrible prosecution, an excellent defense and an unfortunate jury.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

3. I honestly think it's a hang up on 1st Degree vs. 2nd Degree murder.

Specifically, the premeditation question.

Legally, premeditation can be formed in an instant. But to many, the word seems to imply a long, thought-out plan.

I believe he's guilty of 1st Degree Murder. But I can understand if some people might be stumbling over that particular issue.

I think if it drags on longer, they might just go with 2nd Degree. Which would still most likely put Dunn in jail for the rest of his life, so I'm okay with that.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I'm starting to think the same thing

Then there is also the attempts on three other young men.

It's not over until it's over - but I'm thinking he's getting more than a slap on the hand here.

[bravenak]

12. I hope so.

I hope they have already decided on the attempted murder, and are deciding between first and second degree.
I'm so glad there is 12 jurors instead of 6. Imagine if there were only six, which 6 would be deciding this case. Horrifying thought.

[dickthegrouch]

63. In the UK only 9 out of 12 jurors are required to agree

It takes away all jury selection issues (If you're called, you serve, unless there's a *really* good reason not to), and nullifies the occasional hold-out or compromised (corrupted) juror.

I think they're hung up on their own behavior. "If I convict him of 'this', could I be convicted of 'that' at some time in the future, since there are parallels?".

I have often had to temper my response to badness because I've experienced something similar in my life. Doesn't mean I have to agree with what's happening now, but it can make it harder for me throw the book at someone doing something similar. In my experience few are quite as introspective as me, but it only takes one on a jury to make it harder.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

149. I like unanimous verdicts in criminal trials.

BTW, in some states civil cases are decided by super majority votes.

But there's a difference between taking away your money and taking away your liberty.

[Quayblue]

51. I think this also

And I have an inkling that this jury doesn't wanna fuck it up. They are being very careful and deliberate. I'd hate to be wrong on this, I hope I'm not.. I'm a bit wound up over this to say the least.

[davidpdx]

115. I agree that the premeditation could be an issue

It looks like 2nd degree murder would be a minimum of 25 years with a firearm.

[bravenak]

5. I COMPLETELY AGREE!!

Guy shoots up a carload of kids and it takes this damn long to convict?? He says Jordan was threatening him, why the hell does he shoot at all of them while they are trying to escape??

It's murder plain and simple..

[workinclasszero]

18. Unarmed black kids playing music in a car

White assailant pulls pistol fills car full of lead and kills one of them. The perp drives off and buys pizza and the next day drives home without informing the police at anytime.

Black assailant and white victim? Perp up for the death penalty in a heartbeat.

Black victim and white assailant? Gee the jury just cant make up their minds?!

Justice in 'merica

[Cali_Democrat]

19. Well said. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. It's even a miscarriage of justice when it's black assailant and black victim

Whatever can be done to throw more black people into prison seems to be the drill south of the Mason Dixon line espececially but also all over America.

Case in point--black woman who fired her gun into the wall at black boyfriend. In her own house. Gets convicted and sent to prison. Same state as Zimmerman acquittal and this current circus.

[workinclasszero]

52. Racism is so transparent in this country

Its sickening. Yes we have a black President and first family but they have been viciously attacked from day one by racists.

The war on drugs drags on into eternity even though most Americans want to end it against pot anyway but it continues because its a main way to lock up minorities in the USA.

Gotta keep those privately run prisons supplied with young black men eh?

And then there is the murderer zimmerman walking the streets free as a bird and he can legally carry the same weapon he used to put Treyvon in the cold fucking ground.

Rich white republicans rule this country with an iron fist and racism is one of their main weapons. Divide the poor and working class by race, religion, gender, sexual preference...divide and conquer.

[Herself]

127. the more blacks and hispanic's convicted, the less voters that tend to vote Dem n/t

[Skittles]

38. I agree with this assessment

yes indeed

[uponit7771]

116. +1

[Lost_Count]

8. It's more complicated than "Fuck that fucking guy!"

... with detailed explanations as to why in multiple other threads.

Take a deep breath and go outside for a while.

[SunsetDreams]

11. I don't know..

I like when juries take their time as a rule. Taking this much time, I have to admit has me a bit nervous.
There was so much evidence in this case. Nothing but his word supported self defense.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. ...and he gave at least 3 different versions of his story. nt

[SunsetDreams]

20. yes he did..

I'm pretty sure this was premeditated. All it takes is a second to form premeditation for murder. Weren't there at least 3 bullet holes in that door on the side where Jordan Davis sat? It seems to me he wanted him dead. Not to mention all the other bullet holes, but there were at least 3 directed towards Jordan Davis. They were trying to get away and he is still shooting.

I was also disgusted with all the letters that he wrote from Jail. He clearly is racist.

[Eleanors38]

123. And I'm sure the jury had to sift through 3 layers of shit.

[LittleBlue]

13. Why not wait for the verdict

Be patient man, this is important

[Cali_Democrat]

14. It is very frustrating when you see how people view the lives African Americans as less valuable. nt

[Boom Sound 416]

26. As evidenced by?

Please don't tell me it a long jury deliberation. Please say it isn't so.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

29. Why would it have to go beyond the vote they take before they even begin deliberating? This

is my issue. That fucker murdered Jordan in cold blood and tried to murder the others in the car with him. What the fuck is the jury's problem???

[Boom Sound 416]

36. Well duh, see post 14

[Cali_Democrat]

34. One doesn't even have to look at this case or the Trayvon case

All you have to do is look at our nations drug laws to see how blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate and for a longer time than whites who commit the same offenses.

[Boom Sound 416]

39. So it's not because they are taking so long

[Cali_Democrat]

42. No. The length of deliberations in this case has nothing to do with my initial statement.

My statement was more about how Dunn and others, as well as our criminal justice system, view the lives of African Americans as less valuable.

[rustydog]

162. Blacks are disproportionately imprisoned more than whites...

White kills a black, he may do jail time, may not. Black kills a white man...he/she is going to prison for a long fucking time.
Black assault a white, jail. white assault black... jail, maybe, but for a shorter period of time.

It is evidenced by history in America.

[Boom Sound 416]

165. I hear you,

But it's more complicated than that.

[Boom Sound 416]

22. Would someone be a dear and link

The appropiate "Idiocracy" scene

[SunsetDreams]

24. huh? nt

[hrmjustin]

23. I don't know how to read a jury but there have been juries that have taken a long time that

have gotten it right. Hope for the best my friend.

[riverwalker]

25. I'm having an anxiety attack waiting

so I spent some time reading Dunn's letters...OMG....what a racist teabagging asshole. He says "the Republicans will save him."

[HappyMe]

28. I'm worried he will get away with it.

I don't know what to think about the length of time.

[pintobean]

31. Maybe if they were informed of your outrage

they could deliberate the importance of that.

[B2G]

35. Lol. +1000

[Eleanors38]

124. ...it would slow 'em down even more.

[B2G]

32. Betting we have a verdict within 2 hours nt

[Enrique]

41. how long did you deliberate?

[Cali_Democrat]

45. How does the OP have hostility toward white folks?

Oh...welcome to DU



BTW, blasting music too loudly should not be a death sentence.

[hrmjustin]

50. it is our repeat troll.

[Cali_Democrat]

54. LOL

That was fast!

[hrmjustin]

58. There are times she tries to hide it but their are other times she doesn't.

It is a game with her.

[hrmjustin]

48. Back again lg?

[smokey nj]

59. I alerted. Here are the jury results:

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Racist troll.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Feb 14, 2014, 12:34 PM, and voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Get this troll out of here
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Spot on alert. Begone troll.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: 'He didn't murder him intentionally'? On what fucking planet do you reside? Oh wait, racist fuck-wit planet...my bad....

See ya later TROLL!!!!
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Please hide so MIRT can nuke.

[hrmjustin]

61. Good alert and results. she will be back as she always is.

[The Magistrate]

49. Why Don't You Relax, Fella, Take In A Show....

[treestar]

53. Hi right winger

The "white guilt" theme only exists in the minds of right wingers. No one feels guilty for being white. That is not required to note race discrimination. Nice theory though as it seems most of your think it settles the question and thus repeat it over and over.

[uppityperson]

55. Go read a book

[treestar]

46. True this meltdown is premature

What if they convict? Meltdown deleted?

[Logical]

68. What if they don't? You still whine? nt

[treestar]

141. Was that necessary?

What was the point?

[Victor_c3]

57. I might be wrong, but it seems like the more public a case is, the more likely they get off n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

143. various verdict results in high profile cases...

Guilty Verdicts:

Drew Peterson -14 hours
Jodi Arias - 15 hours
Jerry Sandusky - 20 hours
Menendez Brothers - 4 DAYS
Scott Peterson - 7 DAYS


Not Guilty Verdicts:

O.J. Simpson - 4 hours
Casey Anthony - 10 hours, 40 minutes
George Zimmerman - 16 hours, 20 minutes


Looks to me like the longer the deliberating the more likely the verdict would be guilty, not the other way around.

[TorchTheWitch]

65. they're doing there job as they're required to

I don't know why anyone thinks that this jury is taking so long. They aren't. There are 34 pages of jury instructions and a TON of charges they have to consider as well as go through all the evidence a lot of which is technical. It's never a matter of is the defendant guilty or not, it's always is the defendant guilty and if so to which charge and why and does that comply with the legal instructions.

Technical evidence can be difficult and time consuming to go over just so that everyone on the jury even understands its meaning since jurors are lay people likely without previous technical knowledge to easily understand what the meaning of certain technical evidence even is. And let's face it, there are going to be people on any jury that may not be as intelligent as we'd like and may not grasp certain concepts as easily as others.

There was a ton of witness testimony that also needs to be gone over and evaluated, noting any discrepancies and what those discrepancies mean. There are over 200 exhibits that need to be understood and evaluated by all 12 members. And somehow they all have to come to unanimous agreement as to every charge.

I would hope that anyone here would WANT any jury in any case to do what they were sworn to do and take whatever amount of time is needed to go over all the evidence, make sure everyone understands it all, and apply it correctly to the legal instructions in order to come up with a verdict they believe is the correct one over and above their gut feelings or prejudices.

I find it really disgusting that so many people here have been trashing these jurors calling them stupid or bigots or morons when hands down they know FAR more than anyone else about this case including those of us who have watched all of the live trial coverage, and expect them to take a mere few hours to come up with a verdict. A mere few hours means they DIDN'T do their job correctly and DIDN'T take their oath seriously.

I would hope that anyone here would WANT any jury to take their oath seriously and take the time necessary to do their job correctly and thoroughly as concerns any defendant - you'd certainly want them to if YOU were in that defendant seat.

It's also very telling that the ones here screaming the loudest about the jury taking too long and that they must be bigots or stupid are also the ones that have NOT watched all the trial testimony nor know what all the evidence is or what it means nor know what all the charges are and how they legally apply.

I've also seen FAR more bigotry from people on DU toward the jury members regardless of their race than that toward the defendant himself calling them all stupid and gun loving, black people hating bigots just because they live in Florida and without knowing a single thing about a single one of them just because of being impatient for the verdict and the one they personally want regardless of the evidence and the law and without even knowing what all the evidence is or what it means or even what all the charges are. It's fucking disgraceful.

Our judicial system is already such a sham, and the very LAST thing I would ever want in ANY case is for any jury to not take their oath seriously and do their sworn duty in taking whatever amount of time they need to thoroughly process all the information they have sworn to do as I would certainly want were it me sitting in that defendant's chair. My gut feelings or prejudices don't enter into this verdict anymore than anyone else's here, and I and everyone else here are LUCKY that it isn't us that has had to be sequestered away from our lives getting a sore ass from having to sit day after day in that courtroom and all the while not being allowed to ask any questions or say a single word to anyone about anything having to do with the case. Not to mention that I and anyone else here would be furiously insulted to know that anyone that has little knowledge about the case and zero involvement in it would be saying such ugly bigoted and irrational things about us publicly.

SHAME ON YOU.

[bettyellen]

75. I am guessing it is because other famous juries- Zimmerman and Anthony actually did not understand

the charges- let alone jury instrctions. They didn;t know with Casey Anthony that they had charges of reckless something or other to consider. Not brain surgeons, that jury. And some admitted they made up their minds at opening statements- where crazy hypotheticals not allowed during the trial itself were presented. Pretty much every jury out there has those whoa dmit they are swayed more by their personal impressions- what nice, harmless people they seemed to be.
You are giving them lots of credit that previous juries just didnt deserve. We will see if one cranky sorta racist old military/ LEO type hangs this up- but we all know that is what the defense is hoping for, and needs.

[TorchTheWitch]

109. two juries out of how many cases in the state?

I guess Florida courtrooms are normally empty with no trials taking place and their jails must be either empty or non-existent. Let's judge the entire state judicial system based on a whopping two trials that frankly in both cases the prosecution did a piss poor job on and where there was scant evidence and scant if any witnesses and where hands were tied by jury instructions. The prosecution in the Zimmerman case was so terrible I'm convinced they threw the case on purpose. In the Anthony case it couldn't even be determined how the child died much less whether or not it was a homicide.

Every single case is different, and every single jury is different. The Dunn case has a boatload of evidence, independent witnesses not one of which corroborates Dunn's multiple stories as well as his own fiance (the DEFENDANT'S witness) on rebuttal show that he lied about certain vital aspects of the case. Further, unlike the Anthony and Zimmerman cases, Dunn took the stand to his own detriment where he showed that he was utterly unremorseful crying over his dog but not the kid he killed and the others he terrified and more importantly LIED in the courtroom to the jury under oath.

To chastise a jury who has not yet even rendered any verdict as being stupid and bigoted and taking too long is the very height of bigotry when they are taking that time as they are REQUIRED to do in order to do all that they are REQUIRED to do in reviewing and understanding all of the evidence and testimony and must make decisions unanimously on many charges according to the 34 pages of legal instructions as they are REQUIRED to do and until deliberations began were not permitted to ask any questions, clarify any misunderstandings or even mention anything at ALL about the case to even each other. This is NOT a long time they are taking at this point, and should be commended for actually DOING what they swore an oath to do unlike some other juries we've seen that did not and is a spit in the ocean compared to all the cases that the state tries that we have no knowledge of.

This jury holds a person's life in their hands with their decision, and they bloody well SHOULD take whatever time is necessary to come to what they tried their very best to achieve the correct verdict under the law.

"We will see if one cranky sorta racist old military/ LEO type hangs this up- but we all know that is what the defense is hoping for, and needs."

Way to get your own bigotry on there. You know this guy? You're just going to condemn this guy you know absolutely nothing about that he's a cranky old person that's a bigot and is likely to hang up the jury in a guilty verdict? Did it not occur to you that a guy with a military background knows more about firearms and their use and when it is proper to use them and when it isn't and knows what is instinctual that a person would feel and do when when is pointed at them like duck for cover instead of get out of their car and make a huge target of themselves like Dunn did? That they would not turn their back on someone right in front of them with a gun in order to open their glove compartment, get their gun out, take it out of the holster, rack the slide and then turn and fire believing that this person a scant few feet from them with a shotgun is going to just WAIT for him to do all that and allow themselves to be shot? That the person allegedly having a shotgun would actually get out of the car to shoot at him in broad daylight in front of a store busy with people coming and going and wouldn't shoot him from inside the car that had tinted windows so that he'd have a better chance of escape as well as hiding his identity? That he would not likely shoot him when there was no driver in the car to make an escape? Of all the people on the jury it's this guy that without knowing shit about him you decided is a cranky old gun lover bigot that will likely hang up the jury that knows more than the others what a person does and does NOT do instinctively when a gun is pointed at them and what they would do and would NOT do instinctively were they the person with a shotgun.

Let's not forget that it's those alleged gun happy LEO's that hammered Dunn during his interrogation about these very same issues showing him up as a liar and who knew he was full of shit and guilty of murder who were up all night working the case, took the case to the prosecutor's office, testified in court against him, but oh they must be just the only LEO's on the entire planet that are the "good" ones.

More evidence of the most ridiculously bigoted people are right here on DU pointing the bigotry finger at a jury they know jack shit about and making erroneous claims that this one in particular is a "cranky racist" that's going to be trying to hang up the jury because of prejudices your OWN bigotry assigned him with.

SHAME ON YOU, TOO.

[bettyellen]

112. LOL, I am sorry you have so much invested in this- or so much faith in juries.

Don't go popping a vein if they fuck up again. Idiots who didn't even look to see that there are lesser charges (as if Casey wasn't negligent- WTF?) to find or think peaceful protests are race riots are fucking lazy and biased and too stupid to be deciding life and death matters.
Lawyers look for "types" who will be sympathetic to the point of ignoring evidence all the fucking time, so yeah- they made sure they got a few old white men in there, in hopes they share a bit of Dunn's blatant racism. Did you not know that;s how jury selection works? That's a bit naive, and rude calling me a racist when I acknowledge that is how it works. The reverse racism thing is a RW meme, so spare me the bullshit.

[TorchTheWitch]

113. blah, blah, blah

It's the bigots here popping a vein and being so invested in condemning Florida, all Florida juries, anyone in the military or law enforcement, any white person in Florida, etc. making up bigoted and horribly insulting shit out of their OWN bigotry to condemn a jury doing exactly what they are required to do in taking the time necessary to do what they are required and before a verdict is even rendered so that you don't even know what the fuck they're thinking. It's this disgusting bigotry displayed so blatantly and even defended here that has me disgusted, but it's hardly surprising since most of the bigotry I've ever seen has been on DU.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. You are the one that decided that one juror you know nothing about at all is a cranky old racist gun loving man trying to hang the jury and excuse what Dunn did - that IS the very definition of bigotry. Look it up. I'm not the one that defined the word. You decided he was cranky because of his age - bigotry (ie: ageism). You decided he was a gun lover that believes every bullet discharged whatever the circumstances is a correct discharge - bigotry (ie: military background). You decided he was racist against black people because he's white - bigotry (ie: racism - NOT "reverse" racism - look it up). You decided he's hanging up the jury due to all the erroneous bigoted assumptions you made about a person you know nothing about other than his race, gender, and former occupation thereby using your OWN bigotry to make erroneous allegations against him to try to make him out to be a bigot. All when there isn't even a verdict yet and you have no idea on earth what is going on in that jury room concerning him or any of the other jurors. FAIL.

You seem to believe that your own bigotry concerning this man is not only humorous but either non-existent or somehow justified. It's plainly apparent from your own words, and it's disgusting, but on DU hardly surprising.

[bettyellen]

114. so, no one can coment on the racial aspect of the trial- or they are racist. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Where have I heard that before? Fox news, from fucking bigots. But do carry on....

[TorchTheWitch]

118. what racial aspect of the trial?

You weren't commenting on Dunn's racism - you accused a juror of being a racist because he's white, a gun lover that excuses all weapon discharges because he is retired ROTC, cranky because he is older and hanging up the jury deliberations trying to acquit Dunn when you know nothing at all about this man other than his race, gender and former occupation, have no clue what is going on in the deliberations room and when a verdict has not yet been rendered.

YOU - yes YOU - are the one that used your own bigotry against this man you do not know anything about to accuse him of being a bigot solely due to his race and trying to hang the jury so as not to find Dunn guilty due to his being retired military and "cranky" solely due to his age. Those were YOUR own words. YOUR own bigoted assumptions about this person. YOU said it, YOU own it. Trying to excuse it as being funny and then trying to distract what YOU said by pointing the finger at ME for being a Fox news bigoted person for no reason whatsoever and having something to do with actual racial aspects of MICHAEL DUNN and what he did is even a worse fail then your previous ones.

Go ahead and laugh some more about your OWN bigotry concerning a jury member you have no reason whatsoever to believe what you accused him of and having no idea in the world what is going on in that jury room while they deliberate the case and when no verdict has yet even been rendered while trying to deflect the bigotry YOU used against him in trying to allege he's a bigot and by making utterly stupid accusations about me and trying to excuse it as having anything whatsoever to do with the racial aspects of the actual case when you said nothing whatsoever about Dunn's racism but made racist and other bigoted accusations against a juror you know nothing at all about. Have at it. The more you try to deflect, laugh and make absurd excuses and fling more accusations the more you fail. You aren't fooling anyone.

Carry on, indeed. And even more shame on you - you earned it.

[bettyellen]

120. The fact that lawyers racially profile the jurors. And hope for racists in cases like this one. And

I actually did not pick out any particular juror- just commented on the "type" the defense lawyers would most hope for. And it;s not black Moms.

So, that was your overactive imagination going off. I'm not even reading your bullshit after you accused me for being a bigot for acknowledging what lawyers do, and talking about it like everyone else on the net. Not sure why you are totally unhinged, and don;t really care after reading that bullshit. Good fucking riddance with your accusations of racism. BYE.

[TorchTheWitch]

121. backpedaling

You absolutely DID pick out a single juror calling him a "cranky racist" and likely to be hanging up the jury due to YOUR bigoted assumptions about him. That was the WHOLE reason why I quoted that statement you made and pointed out YOUR own bigotry against him by making those accusations against him. Trying to pretend otherwise when the words are RIGHT THERE for anyone to see is absurd.

You're still trying to deflect what YOU said about this man and what YOU accused him of with YOUR own bigotry against him in attempting to claim it has anything whatsoever to do with how attorneys use race to try to get people on or off a jury. Well of COURSE they do just as they do with gender, age, occupation, intelligence, weight, single or married, whatever, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the accusations YOU made about that one particular juror. Would you like me to quote your bigoted accusatory statement concerning that one juror again? They are YOUR words that I responded to that you laughed about and are still trying to deflect using yet more accusations against ME for pointing them out. Very predictable that people who use bigotry against someone get all in a tantrum when it's pointed out to them. Like I said, YOUR words. YOUR bigoted accusations against what YOU said was a "cranky racist" that YOU accused of trying to hang the jury - a person that all you know about him is his gender, race, age and former occupation all of which you used in a BIGOTED manner to accuse him of something you have no idea he has anything at all to do with or is even happening at all and when there isn't even a fucking verdict yet.

All this bullshit (to use your own words again) is YOU trying to deflect YOUR bigotry concerning what YOU said about one single juror and what YOU accused that one single juror of with no knowledge of him other than his race, gender, age and former occupation or what is going on in deliberations.

SHAME. ON. YOU.

Shame on you for using YOUR own bigotry against a single juror and making accusations about what he's doing in deliberations you nor anyone else has any knowledge of. Shame on you for laughing about it as though bigotry in all its forms is something humorous. Shame on you for trying to deny it and deflect it as though you never said it when those words YOU used are right there for all to see. Shame on you for trying to make bigoted accusations against me for pointing out YOUR own bigotry using YOUR own words. Shame on you for trying to backpedal and ludicrously claim you didn't say what you did which is right there for all to see and which I even quoted. Shame on you for criticizing attorneys for trying to chose or keep from having chosen people of a minority race because of bigotry they ASSUME those potential jurors have when YOUR bigotry against one single juror and YOUR accusations about him and what he's doing in deliberations is even worse. And shame on you for trying to make this argument something about what attorneys do when it NEVER was but about YOUR own bigotry against one single juror that YOU are trying to flat out deny you made when what YOU said about him is right here for all to see and what I quoted from YOUR own post.

Again, SHAME. ON. YOU. - you MORE than earned it.

[bettyellen]

156. I was laughing at you, lol. Can't help it.

[840high]

134. Strong post. Thank you.

[Herself]

144. Thank you TorchTheWitch

For your sound, rational, and logical dialogue here.

What we accept as Justice for others, is the Justice we deserve ourselves.

The people that have no faith in their justice system, often don't participate in the process of elections. Even more common in my opinion, people choose based on "party preference" instead of actually learning about the candidates that are elected and that will be making appointments.

Florida has many problems to address, and it begins with each unhappy citizen taking responsibility in their community and state.

[JustAnotherGen]

147. bettyellen - I've read the exchange with Torch below . . .

And I KNOW you have a good heart. But - My husband has pointed out that Dunn has no military background - and he's (my husband) banking on the the former military man to be a stand up guy on this. Here's why -


My husband was a tactical sharp shooter in the Italian marines. It's the six pounds of pressure on every shot that has got him over a barrel. That's deliberate. And any man who has been trained to shoot his gun (his unit when he was stationed in Italy shared training with American marines and he had a LOT of interaction with American soldiers) for his country - any country - Will see that.

I don't know if I can translate his technical gun speak - he showed me with an unloaded .38 last night. And yes - he checked, double checked, and triple checked before we went outside to do this - -that pressure is deliberate and forceful. If a UN peacekeeper is applying that pressure (part of his years of service) it's because you are in serious trouble and you better be deliberate and do no harm to any civilians.

In his mind (and this may come off sexist but he was die hard) - this 'candy ass little boy' had no business having a gun in the first place, and that former military guy is going to see that six pounds of pressure.

I know we have some very pro-gun folks at DU who are probably very shamed by this man's behavior - I hope they are. But they KNOW what Giovanni is talking about.

Six pounds of pressure with my hands and wrists with him wrapping his hands around mine is very very deliberate. It's also very very calm. And very very pointed. The former military juror is going to see that.

[bettyellen]

157. I don't know the jurors' profiles in any detail-

I was pretty much referencing that Dunn's lawyers would try to get someone they saw as similar to Dunn himself. I was describing Dunn's surface qualities without knowing how or if they'd all apply to any of the jurors. Sorry if that wasn't clearer- but everyone knows lawyers do this because jurors do come with biases. Not going to waste time explaining or apologize to some idiot who calls me a bigot for acknowledging the realities here. I hope your husband's correct and it backfires. Sadly, they seem to have at least one juror believing self defense- so I think the OP was right to be concerned that at least one racist asshole is hanging them up. Sad.

[hamsterjill]

69. If you were on trial, wouldn't you want the jury to carefully consider everything?

You may not like the Defendant, hell who would! But it is an inherent part of our system of democracy that a jury be deliberate.

His rights as a defendant are part of this "democracy" that we all fight for.

Being in the jury room is a different thing than watching something on television. Knowing that your decision as a juror is going to affect not only a defendant, but the defendant's family and friends is a sobering thing to consider.

[geek tragedy]

74. If I were on trial, I would want the jury to acquit even if I were guilty. nt

[proudretiredvet]

111. I agree

If it were my child that got murdered I would want the jury to take the time to do each and every step perfectly. I want every T crossed, and every I dotted.

This murder was wrong in every since of the real world. Proving murder 1 may be a problem. I'm hoping for first degree murder but believe we will get a second degree murder conviction.

At this point in time I have to believe that they jury is trying very hard to do this right.

[raven mad]

70. I understand the frustration -

and don't have a clue about the outcome. But can I add a personal experience?

I hung a jury. Once. About 5 years ago.

I did not do it deliberately, but refused to be browbeaten because "everybody wants to go home to go to bed/take a shower/eat/fuck/whatever.

It was, without a doubt, the most difficult thing I've ever done, including giving birth.

[blueknight]

71. the BIGGEST mistake people make is,

they think we have a "justice system" we dont! we have a " legal system" BIG difference!.

[dballance]

77. Why is everybody pissed the jury is trying to take their time and come to a good decision?

Did everybody just want A show trial and then hanging?

Personally, I think the SOB is guilty as hell. But I'm not in court and I'm not on jury. I hope the length of the deliberations just means the jurors are trying to do the best they can. I'd also be willing to speculate that the Zimmerman verdict is on their minds and they want to avoid the same sort of uproar that verdict brought.

[bettyellen]

81. because we are afraid one idiot related to the rage-o-holic racist pig on trial and would aquit?

Because that has happened before. It's a perfectly valid concern.

[dballance]

87. You're correct, and it is Florida

I'm terribly afraid of an acquittal. But we do seem to be getting our rage all stoked up for no reason yet. Maybe we can focus some of that rage to call out our Congress people on unemployment and the TPP? Just my two cents about how to prioritize resources.

[bettyellen]

91. I can multi-task, you know, and discuss things on a board, same as you do, ;-)

Especially since it's a snow day!

[dballance]

95. +1

[bettyellen]

98. *waving stir-crazily from behind a pile of snow*

[MO_Moderate]

78. Takes time to examine evidence presented

than to jump to desired conclusions.

[geek tragedy]

80. safe to say 20 hours of deliberations is more than "not jumping to conclusions" nt

[MO_Moderate]

93. The hurry up and hang him posts

have been going on since before the trial even began.

A man's life is on the line, it is important to get the facts right so that the proper justice can be served. You don't do these things based on biased 'what really happened' fantasies and emotion.

[bettyellen]

99. but juries do base decisions on fantasies and emotion all the time, hence the concern here.

the amount of concern is in direct proportion to idiot jurors we have heard spew ignorant and racist shit once the trails are over.

[uponit7771]

117. Ummm no, Dunn didn't take his time trying to kill 4 teenagers he hurried up and started shooting...

...on it's face this trial should be open and shut

[MO_Moderate]

170. Doesn't matter if he had tried to kill a hundred people

all evidence should be reviewed as many times as it takes.
You do realize that rushing to a verdict can sometimes actually aid in the appeal?

[WinkyDink]

135. "A man's life is on the line." And Mr. Dunn took it. Oh, you mean HIS life? WHO FIRED THE *&^%

GUN???

[MO_Moderate]

171. WHO fired the gun isn't on trial

[Herself]

145. watch the westerns, there was usually a story line about vigilante

hang'm mobs, and one guy that started the "mob mentality"

History does seem to repeat it's self.

If you don't trust your prosecutors, do something about it.
These prosecutor's don't just walk into an office, sit down and say "this is my office now"...

Citizens have duties, just like juries.

Florida is rife with many problems. You all have plenty of work to do, just like every state in the Union!

[Herself]

146. I'm thinking many angry/fearful posters are

very worried for themselves if the verdict is not guilty.

For good reason. I believe they fear riots. The racial targeting of blacks is not just a Florida issue, it's common in the states. Human nature being what it is, there are many that fear riots, and racial retaliation.

I am concerned about it. I will admit. Long before Florida got where it now finds it's self, there were break downs. This is no accident.

Reacting emotionally plays into the hands of the real players. Pitting people against themselves instead of UNITING and removing the players from your govt seems to be a national theme.

[WinkyDink]

153. OFGS. We don't "fear riots." We fear there is NO JUSTICE in Florida. Posting isn't "reacting

emotionally."

[Herself]

155. I fear there is no justice, and I also fear the reaction to the continual

acquittal's of SYG trials.

Perhaps you don't remember the riot after Rodney King beating and trial?

[bravenak]

163. I was there.

Different situation.
Cops on video nearly beating a man to death. White jury. Not guilty.

I experienced the riots, threw rocks, and watched the rampart division randomly beating people until they formed a mob and ran the cops outta the neighborhood. I dont see this happening in Florida. I hope it doesn't take riots to get the state of Florida to value the lives of black folks. We had to get out our pitchforks and torches in Cali. And the cops now beat white guys to death too now in California. Equal opportunity and all that.

[MO_Moderate]

172. What they fear is being wrong

A lot of people came to their personal innocent or guilty verdict when they first read what happened, before any actual evidence was known.

[X_Digger]

119. Ever been on a murder trial jury? Ever been on a jury in any criminal case? Any jury at all?

Somehow, I'm thinking the answer to all those is no, but you'll deflect with a totally unrelated question to obscure that fact.

[JI7]

97. because Jordan was Black, so there is a presumption of guilt on his part

the same happened with trayvon. i see it so often. even the teenage black girl who was shot for knocking on someone's door when she got lost.

i see it regularly on other boards with wingnuts .

they assume the person must have done something for the other person to have killed them. unless it can be proven otherwise there is the presumption of guilt.

i'm telling you, if the races were switched and it was a black guy who killed a white kid and all the evidence was the same it would have been an easy guilty.

[Cleita]

102. Well, if we don't reverse global climate change Florida

is supposed to sink into the Atlantic Ocean once the sea levels rise. I guess that's one way to fix the Florida problem.

[Cali_Democrat]

104. So global warming has some benefits?

It's a joke people!!

[skeewee08]

105. My nerves are getting to me lol

I don't mind them taking their time as long as they come back with conviction in the 1st Degree.

[adavid]

106. The "stand Your ground"...

law has given sanction to anything-goes, Old West killing. Zimmerman, the popcorn killer, now the music killer. All unarmed victims.

[SummerSnow]

107. If he beats this....All black men...leave Florida if you can. Your life is worth nothing there

[rrneck]

110. It's because

they couldn't get Captain Over on the jury.




Otherwise it would be long since Over and Dunn.

[WinkyDink]

137. Your post is twisted and depraved.

[flvegan]

140. How so, and be specific.

Accusations like this...I don't suffer fools gladly.

[OldHippieChick]

129. I actually choked back the bile and watched Nancy Grace

tonite. Did learn that the jury was given their instructions in writing. This is not done in all jurisdictions because they can be so confusing. This particular set of instructions is over 20 pages long and all in legalese, to say the least. Just getting thru those could easily take a full day for non-lawyers and two of these folks are engineers - jis' sayin'.

My guess - they are hung up on "premeditation", but are clear on the attempted murder charges. He will get 60 years even if they hang on the murder charge.

[TorchTheWitch]

142. it's 34 pages

Written in, yes, "legalese". Just getting through them all with all 12 jurors understanding them is going to take awhile. Going through all the evidence, understanding all the technical evidence, etc. weighing the testimony of all the witnesses, etc. is going to take awhile.

I also think they're hung up on premeditation despite the law. Most people believe that premeditation means a rather long period of time and planning. I can see it being a difficult concept for some and wrestling with the concept that premeditation can be as little as a split second very difficult.

[Herself]

166. Thank you for your posts, I'm listening.

I'm thinking because of the premeditation term, I believe they will use "muscle memory" if you will. Their sub will go with what they are "used to" it meaning, thinking someone hatched the plan long before, not it's actual meaning.

I'm hoping for 2nd degree for the victim, may he RIP.
Terms for the other 3.

[JCMach1]

150. Not uncommon to hang in a case like this... they will most likely put him on trial again

[Spirochete]

164. maybe arguing over degree

Second degree seems like a lock, but maybe some are arguing for first degree, while others aren't seeing it.