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Last edited Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:24 PM - Edit history (2)
A sequel to the popular cartoon (or film, if you must) 300 is currently being advertised.
Now, I get that movies are not big on history. For instance, the people at the Alamo were fighting to retain slavery, not to make all men free. I know, right? Hard to believe John Wayne would have gotten that wrong.
And history was seldom guided by modern standards. Just about everybody sucks in some way if you go back a few centuries.
But c'mon man... the Spartans are a special case.
The Spartan virtues are the problem. Sparta was the embodiment of everything we (are supposed to) consider dystopian. Everything we are always supposed to be fighting to defeat. As inhuman as the Borg.
Ancient Athens was a chattel slavery economy, it sucked being a woman, wealth was concentrated... a bad place for 99% of its inhabitants. But despite being a primitive-ass place, as was typical of the ancient world, Athens had some virtuesnotions, cultural ideals and suchof value even to contemporary minds.
Sparta was, on the other hand, an intentional, willful denial of everything we think of as healthy or normal for the sole purpose of promoting a concept of de-individualized state-owned brute masculinity as conqueror of other humans.
But this cultural nightmare of subsuming all of civilization to producing unflinching killers did produce some extraordinary soldiers. Sparta had some military virtues. Sparta had no non-military virtues. None. The Spartan military was not an aberrational but necessary institution protecting a larger worthwhile culture. It was the culture.
The Sparta that produced 300 warriors who held off the Persians at Thermopylae (a truly impressive story, and taking nothing away from it for what it was) was not any better than the invading Persians... like, at all.
Their value is, or was, seen as the hard choice, the necessary evil, the breaking a few eggs to make an omelet, because if those Spartans had not been the most disgusting people on the planet then Athens would have been speaking Persian and we wouldn't have had all that cool stuff Athens led to.
Sparta is the conservative dream of how all the effete simps will come to appreciate the tough-guys when the chips are down. See, you liberal weaklings need these Spartans.
So here we are... with Sparta being presented to Americans as a virtuous Western power holding off the decedent and probably gay Asians because their core values were better, and beloved of God.
Sparta around the time of the Persian War existed on the toil of a slave class (helots) and all of Sparta's energies went to subduing the (numerous) helots and capturing more helots in the usual paranoid slavery death-spiral.
There was no family as we understand it. This is the really sick part... Spartan men and women lived separately. For practical purposes, in separate towns. The sexes were segregated. Separate worlds. Husbands dropped in for impregnation sessions only. Spartan men primarily had sex with slaves and little Spartan boys. Toughened 'em up.
Again, all societies have aspects of this notion but in Sparta it was rigid. Men and women were like separate species because the men had contempt for all things feminine and shielded themselves from all female influence.
When the wife produced a son she would raise him until about 5, at which time Dad would show up to take him off to man-town to become a sex toy and military terror. And he would spend his life in mostly empty world (spartan, if you will) free from all that fruity art and poetry and political science and such.
The end. That was Sparta. Tough slave-holders whose sexual expression was pretty much entirely rape and whose worth was expressed by holding their hand in a fire or some other G. Gordon Liddy bullshit.
Now, there are elements of that Spartan civilization (sic) in all ancient cultures. But those cultures are not revered specifically and ONLY for those things.
The Spartans... the USSR to America's Athens. The Confederacy to our Union. The Klingons to our Federation.
The model of the society existing only for its military expression... the end state of the pathological militarist state.
These are our heroes?
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)And accurate in all essentials.
Marr
(20,317 posts)from the accounts of outsiders, who often had a pretty hefty political axe to grind.
I'm not saying they were heroes, and I'm certainly not suggesting that these movies bear even a passing resemblance to reality-- but we often view history through a period's historical equivalent of Fox News.
Roman history is a great example of how politics twists our perception. The traditional representation of Rome as a beacon of civilization in a sea of barbarians seems to be quite out step with reality. For instance, Trajan presented his conquest of Dacia as something noble, when, in fact, it was little more than a genocide against a friendly (and thoroughly Romanized) trading partner who committed the horrible sin of possessing gold mines when Rome was broke.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)This is not a case of history being written by the victors at the expense of the vanquished. Many records of these things are admiring or value-neutral. (And they were on the winning side in both Persian and Peloponnesian wars)
Since modern sensibilities did not exist when these things were recorded there is no reason for the Spartans to have been painted in a way that would appear horrible 2500 years later, if you see what I mean.
But yes, there is always room for doubt in such things.
Sparta is not presented as socially atypical in Homer, but that would be centuries before the Persian war (and describing myths set centuries before Homer) so reliability is limited.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)of about 300 years, before the culture arose that we today think of as classical Greece. So the Spartans of the Iliad appear to have been a matriarchal culture where the Queen was actually the heir to the throne as in the case of Helen. One of the reason Helen had so many suitors was not just her legendary beauty but also the fact that her husband would become King of Sparta.
idendoit
(505 posts)Practically all the history we possess about Sparta is written by others. One fact remains, they were shamed into showing up and doing the suicide mission at Thermopylae. Read the account of the Battle of Marathon and about how far Pheidippides really had to run. Hint: It was a HELL of a lot further than 26 miles.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)kept their women, veiled and under lock and key much like the Taliban treat their women today. Spartan women also got better food and were allowed to exercise in the gymnasium so they were healthier and better able to bear healthy children. Otherwise it wasn't a walk in the park for any women in Greece other than the hetarae or high class prostitutes of Ancient Greece.
idendoit
(505 posts)Men who died in battle and women who died in childbirth.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Women were reproductive cannon fodder and the output of their bodies the property of society
Rex
(65,616 posts)That was 30 years before the Civil War. Texas wanted to be considered a state within the Mexican Federation. Of course that transformed into wanting full Independence from Mexico.
Did John Wayne actually say it was a fight for freedom from slavery? I never watched the movie.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)and the sudden interest of the squatting Texicans in making Texas as a separate nation.
As for John Wayne, in Wayne's Alamo (one of two movies he directed) Richard Widmark really does tell an elderly black man in the Alamo that they are fighting for his freedom. I know... it's amazing.
The Duke really missed the ball on that one!
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)that I saw a few glimpses of in the trailer.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Hit on just about every topic.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I didn't really mean the OP to slam a bunch of people dead 2,500 years but to note that the 300 thing is scary right-wing, but will be received by many (most?) viewers as unexceptional military rah-rah.
I find the Spartans a truly frightening sort of role model for modern men.
And I have noticed a certain type that LOVES 300. No likes, but REALLY likes.
Marr
(20,317 posts)That man is a right-wing lunatic. I loved his Dark Knight Returns back in the day, and a lot of his other output, but my god-- something went very sour in him. It's strange how that happens to some people.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)There is a fair notion that we have, in the first world west (among other places) evolved -literally- so that our thinking and notions are different than ancient people.
This is the thesis of The Better Angels...by Pinker.
In the bc world which society was not horrible?
All that said your larger point, we should not look to Sparta, is invalid. No one wants helotage. No one wants sexes seperates or buggery of young men by old men. But we as a culture can learn from the bravery at Thermopylae and from the free Athenian rowers who voted(!!!) their leaders and crushed the fleet at Salamis.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)Democracies have produced some fantastically brave men. It is possible.
And we have little to learn from the society that produced the 300, any more than we have to learn from Imperial Japan.
We already KNOW that our society is not militarily optimal. It isn't suppoed to be.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)And tell me which one was not horrible? Staying in Greece- the restricted franchise of Athens? The pederasty of the Sacred Band?
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)You start saying we have something to learn from the worst of the worst, then switch to a stance that we have nothing to learn from anything that is short of perfection.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)We are Rome.