Should women wear make-up?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

I don't wear make-up. I own some but I don't think I've put it on since I was in high school (not that long ago, but still).

If the problem with gender dynamics is women being objectified for sex rather than who they are as an individual than I can think of no greater betrayal of inner feminine power than the outer presentation of make-up which has no purpose except to accentuate the physically attractive over the intangible. To wit --








Is such a woman a traitor to her gender?

Okay, I admit it, the kerfuffle over the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue is the genesis of this thread. I think some very sound arguments about the objectification of women have been made but -- as it has been said before -- morality is an art, it involves knowing where to draw the line.

So what is the line? Does applying eye liner cross the line?

[elleng]

1. Haven't bothered with it since 'retired,'

and even when I wore it, was minimal. Daughters, 25 + 29, use it. They are beautiful without it, intelligent, skilled, but they use it anyway. I'm not happy about this, but never mention it. 'Superficial' doesn't get very far with me.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. I totally understand.

I look at my SIL who is 9 and I think of her -- and she will be a stunningly beautiful woman like her mother -- making her way through a successful life without ever putting on make-up.

I can see myself telling her, "Honey, you don't need that" but I cannot imagine myseelf ever saying, "Honey, you're wrong for wearing that."

Does the distinction make a difference?

[elleng]

6. Yes, the distinction makes a real difference;

we don't interfere, tho we make our points of view known.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. "we don't interfere, tho we make our points of view known."

Anecdote -- I meant to make this an OP but --

My SIL was staying over at our house and she was playing an old video game called "Metroid." My husband commented about how it was a big deal back in the day that the character you play is revealed at the end to be a female. His sister turned to him -- between blasting bad guys -- and asked why that was a big deal.

In other words, the idea of a strong female role wasn't foreign to her. A woman being s strong as a man was an assumed baseline default. It was an "OMG!" moment for me. I'm not saying sexism is eradicated for all time everywhere but that was a very telling moment.

I hope to offer her those small nuggets of "of course you have more" as she grows. I look at her and I see a beautiful soul that knows no bounds. I have no desire to tell her what she cannot do, only what she can reach if she works for it.

[elleng]

35. Thanks. Good thoughts,

and learning experiences.

My daughters saw me working full time as an attorney, doing significant work for the public (worked for Fed govt,) so they didn't doubt the possibilities, I think. Their father did similar. They did observe things go bad over time at home w me and their father, so their view of the world/life may be balanced.

I'm going tomorrow to cemetery, meeting daughters, sons in law and new grandbaby, to entomb their father's ashes, so I expect high emotions, and interested to see how daughters behave, as they don't speak to one another. Fingers crossed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. Strength, love and honor -- always.

Whatever your differences that man created with you the souls you love. You love them not because they came from your body but for the people they grew to become.

That counts for something, right? What more needs to be said after that? And from that they'll learn from you.

That's just me rambling on a waning drunk but that's what I have.

[elleng]

182. Me and baby Eddie today,

after he rode past White House with his folks. A bit of a kerfuffle at restaurant, but MAYBE some hope from the interchange.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

256. OMG! That face!

Thank-you for sharing.

[Warpy]

58. No makeup and no more hair dye and retirement is great

I don't give a shit who wears it or doesn't as long as they have personal boundaries and don't tell me I need to wear it.

[Divernan]

109. Skin & hair absorb chemicals:THAT should be our major concern!

Toxic Alert: Skin Can Absorb What We Apply to It—Including Cosmetic Chemicals

By Britta Aragon on December 18, 2009
http://cincovidas.com/toxic-alert-skin-can-absorb-what-we-apply-to-it%E2%80%94including-cosmetic-chemicals/

Whether or not the skin will absorb something depends on a lot of factors, including the substance itself, the health of the skin, site of exposure, temperature, hydration of the skin, even how hairy the skin is. One study showed that hairier skin, because of its increased number of hair follicles, absorbed more benzoapyrene (BP—a suspected human carcinogen) than hairless skin. Testosterone, however, penetrated both types of skin equally. (These studies were conducted on mice, which according to other studies, have a skin-absorption rate more than 3-fold higher than human skin, so human skin absorption levels could be lower.) But though scientists still can’t pin down exactly how much or under what circumstances skin may absorb something, they all agree that it can absorb what is applied to it.

“Chemicals can be absorbed through skin and into the blood stream, causing toxic effects,” says the Extension Toxicology Network (EXTOXNET). The Chemical Hazards Handbook from the London Hazards Centre Trust has similar information: “Although the skin acts as a protective barrier against many micro-organisms and chemicals, some chemicals can penetrate the skin and enter the blood stream.” Researcher Linda Chaé, writing for thehealthytruth.net, agrees, citing the danger to unborn children: “Recent studies by dermatologists at the University of

California and a multiple university cooperative team confirm that skin absorption is the major route of entry [for chemicals from skin or hair products getting into the womb].”

Beyond the fact that skin can absorb chemicals is the danger those chemicals pose in the body. Many experts agree that absorption through the skin is more dangerous than through the mouth. Substances absorbed into the digestive system go through the kidneys and the liver where enzymes break them down and often detoxify them, whereas substances absorbed through the skin go through no such process. “Chemicals taken in by the mouth are absorbed by the intestines and pass into venous blood, which is taken to the liver,” Epstein says. “Carcinogens absorbed through the skin bypass the liver and enter blood circulation without this protection.”

Though we still don’t know for sure what percentage of the chemicals we put on our bodies everyday is absorbed into the blood stream, the fact that it happens should be enough to motivate us to be more careful. For your health and the health of those you love, look at your skin in a different way—when you put something on it, imagine that substance inside your body. Would you feel as comfortable using it? If not, try something else instead—something with more wholesome, safe ingredients you can feel good about.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555173/Body-absorbs-5lb-of-make-up-chemicals-a-year.html

Women who use make-up on a daily basis are absorbing almost 5lb of chemicals a year into their bodies, it is claimed. Many use more than 20 different beauty products a day striving to look their best while nine out of 10 apply make-up which is past its use by date.

Dependence on cosmetics and toiletries means that a cocktail of 4lb 6oz of chemicals a year is absorbed into the body through the skin. Some synthetic compounds involved have been linked to side effects ranging from skin irritation to premature ageing and cancer.

Richard Bence, a biochemist who has spent three years researching conventional products, said: "We really need to start questioning the products we are putting on our skin and not just assume that the chemicals in them are safe. "We have no idea what these chemicals do when they are mixed together, the effect could be much greater than the sum of the individual parts." Mr Bence, an advocate of organic beauty products, believes that absorbing chemicals through the skin in more dangerous than swallowing them.

He said: "If lipstick gets into your mouth it is broken down by the enzymes in saliva and in the stomach. But chemicals get straight into your bloodstream, there is no protection."

Warnings over using out-of-date lipstick and mascara have also been issued by the Royal College of Optometrists which believes such items are a "hothouse" for harmful bacteria.

Clio Turton, of the Soil Association, said: "Many women are using over 20 different products a day, bombarding themselves with hundreds of different chemicals. They should be asking themselves 'is that eyelash conditioner really essential?' "

[elleng]

136. Good to know,

but don't want to scare my daughters, one with a nursing baby, and the other pregnant. Should inform them, I think.

I use a touch of vitamin E cream on 4 parts of my face, to help avoid and smooth out wrinkles that might appear.

Thanks

[SheilaT]

2. I wear makeup, and I don't at all resemble the photo you've posted,

other than I'm also a Caucasian female.

I have very blotchy skin. So foundation smooths that out. I have eyes that (in my opinion) are enhanced with a little liner, mascara, and shadow. As I've gotten older, my eyebrows aren't as defined as they used to be, so I define them.

I don't wear vampire red lipstick however.

Wearing makeup does not make a woman some sort of sex object. I have never been mistaken for one, and definitely wouldn't be at this point in my life.

If you are comfortable without make up, great! Don't wear it. But don't attempt to categorize all women who wear makeup as traitors to their gender. Because we're not.

I'm sure you would take great offense if you were said to be some sort of ugly lesbian troll just for not wearing makeup. Broad strokes never suit. Your choice not to wear make up is your choice. It does not (I hope) define you. Or at least, it's not the only thing that defines you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. A woman who wears make-up is NOT a traitor to her gender

but lately I have been left with the impression that women who have been fortunate enough to have been born with desirable body features and employs them to her personal benefit has left other women at a disadvantage. Explicit or not the message is they should stop doing what they are doing.

I'm not prepared to say that.

I don't consider myself unattractive and certainly not an, "ugly lesbian troll just for not wearing makeup." I have been the object of attention plenty in my day, even when I didn't want to be (ask me how I got my username). However, I have felt -- pardon the pun -- the siren song of using my looks to gain advantage. Don't tell me that an opportune smile and doe eyes can't exploit a man's congenital stupidity. I'm no Kate Upton but I'm no piker either.

But I have no desire for such things. I want to be known on my own terms. I am stronger than any preconceived notion, cultural expectation or first glance. I write my own fate and so should every other woman/person and if they decide to write it in rouge than let the world beware.

If beauty is as superficial as we have been told than it is the beholder we should pity, not the beholden.

[SheilaT]

28. I want to make it clear that

I am not calling you "an ugly ... troll" for not wearing make up, but pointing out that such a broad brush is every bit as wrong as the broad brush that women who do wear make up are traitors to the gender.

Because, the wearing of make up aside, we are (as are men) unavoidably judged on our looks, it is very hard in life to persuade others to judge us on our own terms. Whatever those terms may be.

I've known people who think bathing and wearing deodorant is somehow betraying their essential self. To that I say, at least take a shower.

I'm aware of this judgment on another level, as both of my sons (now 26 and 31) have an auto-immune disorder called alopecia areata, which causes hair loss. The older son lost all of his hair when he was four, the younger one at age ten. As children, being totally bald had a lot of interesting ramifications. And I can get a little crazy when someone tries to put a positive spin on the baldness by saying how it's so popular and common these days for men to shave their heads, totally missing the point that a guy who shaves has a choice. He can stop shaving and the hair will grow.

I can stop wearing make up, or you can start, and we will look rather different. But we do have a choice.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. If it helps

I never once for an momennt assume you were calling me an ugly, lesbian troll. I understood your comment as you intended it.

And I thank-you for your comments. Sincerely. And thank-you for sharing your family's story.

[Warpy]

76. And when most of us turn 50, we become invisible

It doesn't matter how much plastic surgery or how much makeup or what sort of fashion. Once the uterus dries up and goes out of business, a woman ceases to be.

I got my invisibility cloak right on schedule and I've been having a great deal of fun with it.

Just having the hooting and cat calling stop was liberating. At last.

FWIW, I never wore makeup. I had Irish blue eyes and black hair. Lupus kept my cheeks pink and Sjogren's kept my eyelids a violet color. Makeup made it all look garish and broke my skin out. Most of my friends did wear it. I never thought of it one way or the other, except I could get out the door in the morning a lot faster.

[dionysus]

231. can you please expound on man's "congenital stupidily". surely, you don't believe we'll all be agog

over any and all good looking woman, especially if they are made up extensively.

if I misread your intent I apologize in advance...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

248. While admittedly speaking in wide generalizations

I think it is safe to say that it has been long understood that a pretty smile and a flirtatious batting of the eyelashes has the potential to be used to induce a man to make decisions he might otherwise not make.

Again, this is a generalization and I am capitalizing on what I acknowledge is a stereotype but it is a stereotype I myself have had opportunity to exploit though I have chosen not to do so. I may not have the face that launched a thousand ships but I've set-off a canoe or two.

To me it seems the argument of "SI objectifies women" also suggests that men seeing women in bikinis have no choice except to objectify them. It is in this context that I used "congenital stupidity" in a voice mocking those who claim SI and swimsuit models objectify women. Call me crazy but I think that both insults innocent men as knuckle-draggers but also relieves those who would be offenders of their moral obligations. The fact is, there are good men out there who -- while perfectly capable of taking pleasure in a woman's beauty -- are also not reduced to debased animal impulses. The fact that such good men exist, and in abundance, proves that any objectification is not the fault of SI or the swimsuit models posing for them. When objectification occurs it is exclusively the fault of the men who choose to objectify women.

[dionysus]

275. thank you for elaborating on that... makes sense. if i see the SI cover, a magazine i don't buy,

(I only saw it on DU), I suppose I would think "nice looking ladies", and move on, forgetting about it a few moments later, and go back to thinking about more important things... I certainly don't think of the women as mere objects to be ogled at or debased....



Edit: as an oddball, I find what shallow men consider "flaws", endearing and attractive. but a pickup line artist I am not, so I would never approach someone unsolicited and start hitting on them. I think that's sleazy. for some guys, it works, it's just not my bag.

[eridani]

80. This is pretty much my situation. I don't think of makeup as adding color

Foundation evens out my skin, and I put concealer on puffy dark circles. Also colorless lip balm. That's pretty much it. It's fairly unusual to be pushing 70 and still have oily skin--flip side is that this takes years off my apparent age. I manage it during the day with fine hemp blotting paper.

[CTyankee]

114. I too have a very fair complexion that tends to redness. I use a very light foundation to smooth

it out. And I have the same problem with eyebrows. I have to lightly fill them in (no pencil, just a darkening eyeshadow brushed over them).

I wish I had inherited my mother's creamy smooth complexion (I don't remember her wearing make up and she was a professional woman). She tanned beautifully, while I burned and got blotchy...it wasn't FAIR! But now I am glad as so many of my sunbathing friends have irreversible wrinkles, making them look far older than they actually are.

I used to color my hair to hide the grey, but stopped entirely after I retired. For me, it was more of an age discrimination issue than a beauty one. I actually hated the coloring put on my hair. Now I find that my grey hair is a natural softening of my older face and I am very happy about that!

A little eyemakeup is only for special occasions where photos might be taken. But I don't wear lipstick at all.

[Carigal]

178. I wear makeup too

I wear make up and also do not look like the picture. Makeup is one of my favorite things. I remember playing with my Mother's powder and perfume when I was little. My sister and I mixed it all together and made all kinds of concoctions out of it. I don't think that most people can tell that I wear makeup. I detest red lipstick - it would look horrible on me. But the rest is fun to play with. I think it also makes me feel better about myself but not in a bad way. It is just a fun part of my life and always has been.

[dem in texas]

3. This is stupid!

Who Cares if a woman wants to wear some make-up. Get a life!

[mimi85]

276. ^^^This!

I totally agree. Give me a break! Let women wear make-up or not, it's none of my business. Sheesh!

[LeftyMom]

5. Women should wear whatever the fuck they want.

Personally I can't apply eye makeup without looking like a clown. I can break out the powder/mascara/lipstick if I absolutely have to, but that's about the upper limit of my skill level and I can't be bothered to figure it out.

I do have a designer dress and purse collection far beyond my means though, because I <3 thrift stores forever.

[Orrex]

100. ^^That

And I'm sure that you would make an admirably commanding clown.

[lpbk2713]

7. Katherine Harris thinks so.

[edbermac]

8. Anybody should wear anything they want to at any time.

And if anybody else has a problem with it, tough shit.

[JI7]

9. women can wear whatever they want to wear (or not wear)

[3catwoman3]

10. I seldom wear makeup.

A little under-eye concealer very occasionally, if the circles are really dark. My basic outlook is "What you see is what you get." I'm fortunate enough to have been fairly lucky in the genetic lottery, in terms of no facial birthmarks, good cheekbones, and relatively full lips that have a fair amount of color on their own. Kinda puny eyelashes. The main reason I don't wear mascara is because I do think I look better with it, and I don't want people to think I look sick or weird if they see me without it.

Mostly, I'm too lazy to bother with it.

[JI7]

11. no, makeup is often cultural such as those who go for the goth look

these people aren't trying to look more pretty for someone. it's about how they feel comfortable .

[JaneyVee]

12. I'm pro-choice.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Well-played.

[kcr]

13. No, she isn't

I wear makeup. I bristle at women being told what they should and shouldn't wear. A lot of times when people think a woman isn't wearing any, she's actually wearing a minimal amount and they just don't realize it. Do I wish we lived in a world where there was minimal pressure and only women who truly enjoyed makeup would freely make that choice? Absolutely and maybe someday we'll get there. And I actually do enjoy makeup myself, but I'm also aware that culture has very likely influenced that.

[applegrove]

14. I used to wear mascara and lipstick

back when I hoped to meet someone and fall for them. I didn‘t hang out with single men who I wasn‘t interested in. I only hung out with close friends. People who knew I wasn‘t interested in them in any way except for friends. I thought I might meet that rare guy I could get along with and get serious with during the day. Then I turned 23 and my life was no longer my own for the longest time. Do I regret not wearing a burlap bag and greasy hair every day? Nope. What happened to me wasn‘t my fault. I had a right to be minding my own business. To be slowly sussing out my own private life. I‘m not responsible for what others project onto me. Now I again lead a quiet life. I am no longer hoping to meet a nice guy. I have ptsd and all the emotion I can take. My hair is short and I don‘t often wear makeup. But I do shower. I hang out only with people who accept that I am single and staying that way. With people who accept I have ptsd now and don‘t put their shit on me. I‘m only about real connections to real people. Same as I ever was. The older I get and the more my life is my own, I realize I‘ve lived the best life I could possibly live. To not date people who were not attracted to who I was inside was such a blessing. And I‘m so glad I was so great at non verbal communication that I could tell the difference. As to all those people who were overly concerned about my empty whooha - **** off. You only knew me superficially if you knew me at all. And I was so obviously so terribly sensitive and obviously painfully, painfully shy to those that actually spent any time with me they should have left me alone. And now for the rest of my life I'll need my space. To be the person I always wanted to be. On the track I was on at 23 only with a way smaller circle. And a much greater need for solitude. But with a huge life so filled with emotion that it is too much most days. If I never had any personal drama whatsoever in my life again I would be trilled

[bravenak]

15. If they want to.

I do when I want to. Sometime I don't feel like it. I had a job where I had to wear it. So now I rarely do. I hate the extra attention.

[Mz Pip]

16. It depends on what I'm doing.

I think I look better with a bit of eye make up. I don't see a problem with it.

People, both men and woman decorate themselves in all kinds of ways. I don't see make up as being any different than jewelry hair ornaments. It's part of many cultures.

[Blue_In_AK]

17. I've never worn much makeup,

even when I was young, even when I was working. Once in a while I used to wear makeup when I worked, but one time my boss made a comment about how much he liked my lipstick shade and it just creeped me out. I never wore lipstick to work again.

I'm lucky to live in Alaska where it's not uncommon for women to go makeup-free.

That being said, I have no problem with other people wearing makeup if they want to, and some women look beautiful with it. I look like a clown.

[ismnotwasm]

18. I think men should wear makeup

And women if that's what they want to do. The problem isn't the art of body decoration, the problem is thats it's gendered and reinforces stereotypes.

It a personal choice is the bottom line.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. "I think men should wear makeup"

The only make-up my man is allowed to wear is sweat.

[ismnotwasm]

34. Yeah mines got a beard. Hates to shave

He'd look good in eyeliner I think if it was done right. He keeps his ears and nose and -- usually--beard trimmed and that's decent enough

I see men painting their toes, plucking their eyebrows, make up if they're trying to be rock stars.

They're out there, the male self decorators. Tattoo enthusiasts have been known to wear a little eyeliner and such.

What I mean is more freedom for people to decorate if they like. Right you have women who won't leave the house without makeup out of insecurity and that's sad.

But 'should they'? I don't care. I'll wear it if I feel like it which isn't very often, but I don't feel like a bad feminist if I do. My husband doesn't like it, which is interesting. He's always found my bare face more attractive.

[Lost_Count]

91. No "guyliner?"

[jmowreader]

189. Not with that butt-ugly haircut and the half-ass beard, no

[NV Whino]

19. It's every woman's choice

There is no should or should not about it.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

22. I'm sick and tired of this nonsense.

My mother is 83 and she wears make-up when she goes out. So does her sister who is 82. I wear make-up every day and I'm 60......It is not about sex.

It's about women being able to do whatever they want!

These days women can show their sexy bums on magazine covers, compete in sports, carry a gun, run a business, have babies as single mums, ride astride horses, vote, tell a feller off for unwelcome remarks and even wear their faces painted...if desire to.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. "These days women can...

...show their sexy bums on magazine covers, compete in sports, carry a gun, run a business, have babies as single mums, ride astride horses, vote, tell a feller off for unwelcome remarks and even wear their faces painted...if desire to.

This may just be the liquor talking but -- fuckin'-A!

Preach it, sister!

[Gravitycollapse]

24. You can never fully separate personal and social influence.

Thus, no one who contends that their decisions are literally their own, that they don't care about what others think, is telling the truth. There is always some consideration given to public perspective.

Thus the question should women wear makeup, is not simply a consideration of personal decision but also one of public perception. It is important to resist the normative expectation that women wear makeup without shaming those who chose to wear makeup.

This is an issue that demands subtlety.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. "There is always some consideration given to public perspective."

Is that what they told you to say?

[Gravitycollapse]

29. Who's "they?"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. Whomever the "public" might be.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. Are the quotes meant to be a passive aggressive slight or something?

If you don't want my opinion, don't start a thread soliciting opinions. It's not that difficult to grasp.

[NM_Birder]

215. I believe you when you said

high school wasn't far in your past.
Love to know what your opinion is on why Hillary or Michelle might wear make-up.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

218. "Love to know what your opinion is on why Hillary or Michelle might wear make-up."

It doesn't bother me. I don't really wear make-up, I just sort of shrug about it and Lover Boy is sort of "Bleah!" to the whole idea but there are some who would suggest that wearing make-up is a relic of male expectations that women "doll themselves up," as the saying goes. If this position is accepted at face value then Hillary and Michelle are catering to those societal expectations at the expense of women who want to be accepted for their accomplishments, not their physical appearance.

I'm not prepared to say that but maybe some would assert I'm just a product of the patriarchy. That's the crux of this entire thread.

[NM_Birder]

226. "lover boy's" opinion is self indulgent to the point of your thread.

I think women should be allowed to wear whatever they want, however they want in whatever manner that makes them feel the way they want to feel about themselves, and they should be allowed to do it without being spotlighted in an overt manner to make them feel even LESS secure about themselves.

I get it, you don't wear make-up, I've heard you say it several times now..... but do you think women who do are "betraying" other women ?

Do you think women who wear make-up are less secure in themselves, and feel a need to please the visual pleasures of men to gain an advantage, are lowering the bar for other women who do not have that insecurity ? THAT is the crux of this thread.

"it doesn't bother me" is not an explanation to the point of the thread you started. Why do you think women wear make-up, and what do you think is the line that crosses over into "betrayal" of fellow women

You write well, English Major ?..... now say something yourself........ "some say' "some might say" "some would suggest".......say what YOU are thinking.

I'm getting the feeling the point of this thread is to make sure everyone knows you don't wear make-up.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

246. Fair 'nuff. In another post, responding to an accusation of passive-agressiveness, I wrote --

I'm thinking that the term "passive-agressive" is fast becoming as meaningless as "objectification" and "flamebait." They are terms meant to mean everything and anything but devolve into meaning nothing. Every single instance of that term has been employed to dismiss someone with whom the user disagrees without ever coming close to addressing the principle point of disagreement. It's just another -- but more haughty -- way of saying, "You're wrong and you're so wrong you aren't worth my time to explain how wrong you are so I'm just going to tell you you're wrong and leave you here in your wrongness." And off they sniff with their noses in the air, confident in their own pseudo-psychological superiority.

I asked a very straightforward question: how do we draw the lines on what defines objectification?

That the mere posing of the question has been met with such hostility seems to suggest that those taking offense don't want to define the term. I cannot conceive of any reason why this would be the case except to suggest they want the term to mean whatever they desire at any given moment so that it may be employed as a cudgel against those with whom they disagree. Anyone asking them to define the conditions under which the cudgel is employed would de facto also be defining when the cudgel cannot be employed; and I think that is the part that makes them most hostile.

If I am wrong I invite them to state their case as to why (and along the way actually address the question I the OP).

It is analogous to the way the term "racism" was employed against people opposing the Syria kerfuffle. People who had long opposed wars in Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and elsewhere also opposed the prospect of war in Syria and yet the suggestion they were racist was employed with a startling degree of frequency. No, that's not a dismissal that racism exists or that the President might be opposed for reasons of racism over policy but by employing such tactics those doing so diminished the ability to guard against genuine instances of racism. In other words, a crass political tactic cheapened the overall ability to confront both another ill-advised war and real racism.

That's a losing strategy on all fronts.

So, what does -- or does not -- constitute objectification with regards to women expressing their physical attractiveness or allowing others to capitalize on their attractiveness?

That's as plainly and up-front as I can state the issue. Hopefully it will help others not mistake it for passive-aggressiveness.

I will add -- because my opinion has solidified since starting this thread -- that much internet ink has been righteously spilled decrying the reprehensible practice known as slut-shaming. That a woman could be sexually assaulted and then both the victim and perpetrator denied justice in our legal system is abhorrent because some prosecutor, judge or jury says, "Well, look at how she was dressed!" It's truly one of those issues that makes me seethe and lose my decorum. I've had posts hidden when others have suggested my innocent exercise of self-determination must yield to societal norms. Yet, when women decide to pose in bikinis for SI the claim is made they and SI are contributing to the objectification of women.

'Scuse me but just a minute ago we were saying a woman's mode of dress has no place in determining how she should be treated as a human being. If I choose to wear a G-string to the beach that's what I want to wear. It absolutely is NOT another person's invitation to consider me a commodity. It is incumbent upon them -- not me -- to guard their behavior. If the problem is a good body sexily displayed causes some to lose their better judgment the problem isn't the woman with the nice body on display.

In the end that leaves me thinking if young swimsuit models want to pose then they are free to pose and others are free enjoy. What others are not free to do is to corrupt that beauty with expectations that these women, or women in general, are obligated to indulge the viewer's baser passions.

But unless that is the message we will miss that mark. If we say posing sexily for swimsuit magazines is leading to the objectification of women then we are removing the onus from those who are objectifying and putting it on the women who are posing. I cannot see myself contributing to that argument.

I hope this suffices to remove any suspicions that I am harboring ulterior motives for my thread.

[NM_Birder]

251. That was pretty much was what I expected.

Springboard to a different thread, .....yet still able to cover, assault on women, rape, bikinis, swimsuits, sex-ification of women's attire, and even managed to get yourself inserted with a G-string reference.....everything but your own opinion on the "betrayal" of some women wearing make-up as referenced in the original thread you started. I am a little surprised you didn't describe push-up bras and high heels along with G-strings.

I asked if you would answer your own question,....... do YOU think women who wear make up are "betraying" other women by accentuating their looks ? I say no, they are NOT "betraying" anyone. This was the crux of you original thread, remember ?

I was curious what your opinion was of the question you asked others to answer, I have my answer. "to get to the other side"

I think your writing style is captivating, but I think you write for yourself not to engage your reader. The thread you started with the picture you chose was just bait, so this could be posted this again. You completely ignored any reference to make-up, it was never the point.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

254. I have answered repeatedly throughout the thread

that I do NOT think women wearing make-up are a traitor to their gender. If you refuse to accept an explicit straightforward answer and you refuse to accept the drawn-out explanation as to how I arrived at that answer the difficulty is not mine.

You completely ignored any reference to make-up, it was never the point.

The reference to make-up is an effort to define the lines on either side of what defines objectification. The essential point of objectification is whether or not women are denied their fair place in society because they are supposed to be pretty more than they are allowed to make meaningful contributions. Apparently the problem is so endemic that the annual SI swimsuit issue is cause for alarm; a thing to be confronted and changed is not outright extinguished.

If people claim this to be the case then it stands to follow that a woman that chooses to accentuate her physical attractiveness would be contributing to this overarching problem -- if a person accepts the underlying notion.

I do not feel a woman wearing make-up does a disservice to her gender but then again I do not think a swimsuit issue in a popular sports magazine does a disservice to the female gender. But for those who do I want to know how far they intend to push.

And I have been taken to task for asking as much. I am now the traitor and have probably lost a friendship over it.

Whatever. If feminism has taught me anything it is that I am to decide my own fate regardless of what others think of me. I am my own person, I am not out to harm anyone and I won't apologize for who I am. Those who wish to cast a disapproving eye are at complete liberty to step the fuck out of the way.

And, for the record, the reason I speak in personal references is because if I employ ambiguous terms I'm accused of passive-aggressive "some-say" argumentation. It wouldn't be proper to draft others into my arguments so I reference myself. It appears my choices are to be accused of obfuscation or conceit.

Again -- whatever.

I ask a question and some are too cowardly to offer an answer even though they protest the issue is too vital to be ignored. That says more about them than anything I might allege. My head remains held high.

[NM_Birder]

288. look-ith over there

made-ist thou look.

[Lugnut]

26. I wear makeup.

I use much less now than I did when I was younger. It makes me feel better and it's my choice.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. People who think everyone else should do exactly what they want them to are control freaks

and authoritarians.

and no fun at parties.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. You and I have tangled in the past.

We have also been allies. I seek to change nothing about that relation to you.

But in this we also agree.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Heh... We have?

You gotta tell me your secret- is it ginko biloba, or what? I swear, I can't keep track of DU's "sides" without a spreadsheet.

Lotta people swear up and down I'm their worst enemy or best friend, and I'm like "hey, nice to meet you too!"

Anyway, cool. It's all good.

[seabeyond]

106. this is the bullshit. you put up this ridiculous OP, warren jumps in as reason, as if ANYONE

suggested otherwise and you two bond as if you have done something.

bullshit.

this Op is all yours, and no one on this board has made this suggestion. do not hand it to us.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

116. The word "objectification" is being toss around quite a lot lately.

So much so I can't tell what is or is not objectification anymore.

My genuine concern is that the word is being contorted to mean, "Something I don't like and don't want other people to like either." That would broaden the definition so much that it would ultimately lose all meaning. Like the boy who cried "Wolf!" that would pave the way for more genuine, egregious objectification.

As I stated elsewhere in the thread: morality is an art, it involves knowing where to draw the line. I am seeking to define that line. If deliberately displaying one's good looks is objectification than it seems a natural conclusion to jump to that make-up lends itself to objectification. It accentuates physical attractiveness, presumably at the expense of intellect and talent.

However, I can see how those complaining about the SI swimsuit issues might also be reluctant to scold their fellow women about wearing make-up. Again, where do we draw the line?

It's not my fault the issue has become so muddled. With so much shouting back and forth I doubt anyone even knows what the hell it is they're fighting about, at this point they're just fighting.

I will add -- I'm sure you and Warren have clashed in the past. As I stated, I have clashed with him as well. On the issue where I took offense I remain steadfast in my opinion. However, I do not put people on a list. I take each issue in turn and I make my own judgments. Because I'm a woman and I can do that.

[seabeyond]

119. your posts of recent have been chalk full of mock, snark and insult. yes, you write cleverly.

and i enjoy that ability of yours. but your insults and defining the issue is full of condemnation and i really have no desire to address the passive aggressive insults thru out this post and those in the OP.

take care.

i have no desire to play this game.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

126. What do you mean "passive aggressive insults"? I was very literal in everything I just wrote.

I actually try to avoid snark and sarcasm because it gives the interlocutor an excuse to not answer points directly. I'm asking a direct question. I'm hoping people will give a direct answer.

[Warren DeMontague]

286. Hell, sometimes I clash with myself.

It's probably because I'm not truly informed.

[Warren DeMontague]

287. Wait, what'd I do now?

can I get the cliffs notes version?

[kcr]

39. And then there's the other extreme

Absolute individualistic thinking. Who cares if it affects anyone else? I'm gonna do what I want! Hey, they may be fun at parties, but meanwhile people are oppressed and the earth burns to a crisp.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Sure, which is why sane people support individual freedom that doesn't interfere w/other individuals

But that seems to drive authoritarians buggy, since it's not fun enough.

Running other peoples' lives IS oppression.

[kcr]

49. To you, it's authoritarians being driven buggy

I see a discussion on whether there is an interference and influence going on in society. I even say upthread that I myself wear makeup, so I'm certainly not one of the "authoritarians" you seem to think are at issue. I've wrestled with this dilemma myself, whether I contribute to the problem and whether I should even be wearing it myself. I know that some take an extreme view that society is just a man made construct, but human beings are very social, complicated beings and we are not all islands unto ourselves. The choices we make can affect others in ways we don't even realize. Yeah, support individual freedoms that don't interfere with other individuals, but that's not black and white. Lots of gray, there. There's nothing wrong with considering the choices we make, and talking about those choices. I just don't get stomping into a thread about makeup and talking about authoritarians. You honestly can't see how this is a valid discussion?

[Warren DeMontague]

61. I'm not saying it's not a valid discussion.

I have offered my opinion.

I personally see a lot of people all over this planet preoccupied with telling other people how they're "doing it wrong", whatever "it" may be.

It would never in a trilliion years occur to me to suggest to anyone else that they should, or should NOT, wear makeup.

It strikes me as - let me be charitable, here - a very odd hobby.

[kcr]

63. Of course it wouldn't.

Because I'm assuming you don't wear makeup and are never faced with the choice of whether you should. So, of course, it wouldn't occur to you in a trillion years to suggest to anyone else that they should or shouldn't wear make up. And I'm not saying you should. But the discussion of how women are pressured to look good and where makeup plays that role and how important that role is is going to seem like a much bigger one to those that do. It certainly isn't an odd hobby for them. It's an every day part of their lives.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. How's this: If someone tells you you should- or shouldn't- wear makeup, my suggestion is

That you tell them to go screw themselves, or something equally colorful and acrobatic.

There, I've offered a stranger totally unasked for advice!


Yeah, though, gotta say, still not feeling the fun.

[kcr]

66. Yeah. Sorry to be such a downer

It's just a pet peeve of mine, the misuse of the term authoritarian.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Aye, I admit to having pet peeves, too.

But honestly I'm working on cultivating an attitude of not expending a whole ton of my own energy on other peoples' hang ups, especially insofar as they relate to things that are way, way, way beyond anyone's control.

[Gravitycollapse]

69. That's because you're purposefully framing the discussion incorrectly.

Which is at the very least disingenuous but possibly a hostile attempt to stamp out meaningful discussion on the subject.

This is not a discussion about controlling the actions of others. It is a discussion about how to protect and multiply the flow of information so that others can make truly informed decisions.

See, that's where the harm principle, libertarian bullshit loses its way. It makes the assumption that everyone is equally informed to make their own decisions and then washes its hands of the entire situation. Which is an easy, lazy thing to do. It's morally uncontroversial, devoid of risk and thus nearly totally meaningless.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Okay, if you say so.

It's kind of cool how I can be "hostile" and "morally uncontroversial" at the same time, though. A neat trick, huh?

[Gravitycollapse]

71. That's the irony of much of the libertarian movement. In it's need to reduce risk...

In it's drive to find a point of non-controversy, it becomes hostile to any statement or movement that is controversial. It seeks to pull those on the "fringe" back into line, to shut them up, so that the homogenous, risk averse can maintain their control.

You may be wondering who exactly it is who is risk averse but asserts power. How is it possible that both characteristics could exist in one person? That's easy to answer. We are are talking about those with ascribed privilege who, never really presented with adversity, never need risk to succeed. They, being ignorant of the necessary risk taking by others, want the entire world to function just like themselves.

This is at the core of most libertarianism. It's not so much a trick as an autonomic reaction. A base instinct to protect one's own assets. When you're at the top, there's many assets to protect.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. A yes libertarian yes harumph harumph robble robble libertarian robble.

Yeah, next conversation I'm having with a libertarian, I'll let em know.

so, are you telling women to wear makeup, or not?

[Gravitycollapse]

73. I want women to be aware of the historical significance of makeup...

And how it plays into the hands of the socio-sexual hegemony.

That isn't to say that the argument against makeup is essentialist. It isn't. Women have the power to reappropriate the weapons of their oppressors. But it needs to be the product of their own will. Not the handed down prophecy of a bunch of WASPs.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Oh.

Well, lucky for them they have you to straighten their heads out on the matter.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. My truly informed decision is I'll wear makeup when I feel like it...

I never realised I had to make a *truly informed decision* about wearing it. There ya go.

[treestar]

124. Well maybe they can put the question differently

As women, why don't we just say the hell with it and save the money? Because we are afraid we won't look "good enough?" This could have to do with mere social presentation and a professional look as much as sex.

It kind of is a pain to have to do all that when the men you are competing with are spared it. (Though I admit I don't envy men the ties and suit jackets, even when it's hot.)

[Warren DeMontague]

165. To be perfectly honest, I think some of this stuff may break on geographic lines.

Like a lot of things. We think of the US as a cohesive whole, but some of the biggest differences I've noticed lie on the East-West axis in the US. The East Coast, in my experience, is far more formal, and to some degree conformist, than the West. Some people prefer that, personally, I don't.

And yes, of course, I realize that Southern California can be very superficial. That said.

I live in a place where a lot of women don't wear makeup, and a lot of men don't wear ties.

[kcr]

200. This is true

That comes up sometimes in other discussions. I've moved to a place where it's a little less formal and it makes a difference.

[MADem]

204. You live in northern Maine?

I think the question could be framed "Should men wear make-up?" Some of those raddled old basstids in Congress could probably do with a bit of "Maybe it's Mabelline...?"



It was quite popular in the French courts back in the day, loaded with mercury, not too good for ya, but everyone wore it!

http://www.raucousroyals.com/lookandlearn/LouisXIV.htm

[FormerOstrich]

41. Distractions

The questions about makeup, sexuality, sex-workers, and disservices to women-kind have been brought forth constantly since I can remember.

In my ostrich days I rarely, if ever wore makeup. I suppose it was my way of assuring myself being the perfect corporate shill was earned and not the currying favor. I wear makeup routinely now that I am old and no longer a ladder climber. Then again, maybe my own perceived status had nothing to do with it and the crow-feet all to do with it.

I don't see wearing makeup any different than jewelry or the costumes we all wear on a daily basis. How we present our ourselves to the world is a part of our life experiences, self-esteem and personality. I don't see how another woman's makeup could possibly be traitorous.

On the other hand, I believe women have so long been oppressed, demeaned, and victimized that women have become to rely on only them-self for survival. As such, women don't (naturally) organize and pull together collectively as men do. IMHO, if women would display the same maternal instinct for the sisterhood as they do for their children the delta between the men in terms of compensation, politics, and overall influence would narrow.

[Tikki]

42. I have always worn foundation, since I was a teen…it has protected my face from the sun's….

damage.

Remember, not all facial makeup is created equal and not all makeup is bright red lipstick.



Tikki

[Major Nikon]

43. The way you describe it sounds almost like "airbrushing"

Personally I could care less if women wear makeup or not. The only problem I have with it is in work environments that compel women to wear makeup as a condition of employment. I don't think women should be required to wear makeup any more than men should be required to wear a tie. Obviously the courts disagree with me. Along the same lines I think those who think women shouldn't wear makeup are equally wrong.

[Initech]

44. Who needs butter? I've got plenty!

[struggle4progress]

45. It's not for me to tell people how to present themselves. But as a matter of personal taste,

I prefer women without make-up

[Iggo]

46. Nope.

And they should hack off all their hair and stop taking showers, too.

Ugly it up, girls. You're too pretty to be taken seriously.

[cyberswede]

120. Not sure what you mean...

Your remarks make it seem that you think women (or "girls&quot with short hair who wear no makeup are somehow uglier. Is that what you intended to say?

[Lil Missy]

47. Sure, women "could" wear make-up .... IF they choose to

To me, the word *should* implies there is *something wrong* if you don't. So I prefer to use *could*, because it implies a choice.

Having said that, sure - women look nice with make-up, so why not. I personally do not like wear make-up but for eyeliner, which I had tattooed on years ago. That way I don't have to mess with the make-up routine every day. My eyes look better, and I look better with eyeliner on. And I'm not doing it for sex appeal or to impress men - I'm openly gay.

[blkmusclmachine]

48. The SI kerfuffle is merely the latest in the GOP's WAR ON WOMEN,

or, as the GOP calls it, the WAR ON SLUTS !!

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. If they want to, sure. It shouldn't be something expected of them though.

And makeup is fairly innocuous. High-heeled shoes on the other hand are the Western equivalent of Chinese foot-binding.

[snot]

51. Self-beautification is an art

to be enjoyed and appreciated by all genders, and all those who enjoy being around them.

But like all endeavors, it can take time, money, and other resources; and it's not for everyone. Some people prefer to be appreciated for other things, and to put their time, money, and resources into other things. And some prefer a little of this and a little of that.

All of us deserve to be appreciated, each for her/his "peculiar excellence."

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Will y'all write a news release or something when it's decided?

Mrs Lumberjack wants to know how to dress tomorrow.

[liberal_at_heart]

53. My daughter wears make up. I don't. I defend both her right to wear it and my right not to.

[fizzgig]

54. to me it's not a matter of whether women should wear makeup

but rather us being expected to. paint your face, ink your flesh, pierce your skin, be you, but don't expect me to be you.

i hate those makeovers shows. i mean no self-esteem respecting woman doesn't want to be stylish and beautiful in the conventionally accepted way, amiright? i am a walking fashion disaster and i don't give a shit. i don't wear makeup, my hair is at various stages of growth ranging from buzz cut to shaggy dog and wear shit like red plaid pants and a pikachu t-shirt. i shower, brush my teeth and my hair if it's long enough, but that's it. i clean up well and like to play dress up a few times a year, but that's not who i am. doesn't make me a freak, doesn't make me a ugly, it just makes me me.

[Scootaloo]

55. "Traitor to her gender"?

Gosh. I can't imagine why some women are feeling that DU is becoming a hostile place.

They must be as hysterical and irrational as those African-American who have expressed the same feelings.

Or the smattering of Muslim posters who feel completely unwelcomed.

And increasingly, those of us who on the political left.

DU - another study in the the preponderance of white privilege, male determinism, and general rightward slouching of the internet. well-played Skinner, you've demonstrated that without meaningful moderation, even a liberla bastion can become a freeper shithole - all that's needed is time and attrition.

[hobbit709]

90. someone had a poutrage over your post

On Mon Feb 17, 2014, 03:33 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

"Traitor to her gender"?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4513862

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The OP asks a logical question, given the shit-storm caused by a woman posting the SI swimsuit cover. This poster uses that question to launch an attack on Skinner and DU. We are not a "freeper shithole".

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 17, 2014, 03:39 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Scootaloo]

94. You're the fourth person to tell me so

For the record, it wasn't so much an attack, as a simple acknowledgement of what invariably happens to EVERY unmoderated internet forum. It's like a beach. Flotsam invariably washes up on a beach - junk, garbage, driftwood, dead fish, that sort of thing. it's just the nature of a beach. If beachgoers keep it clean however, it stays a nice beach and everyone enjoys it. On the other hand if the flotsam washes up too thickly or if, for whatever reason the beachgoers can't clear it up, it just... collects. As more and more shit piles up on the beach, fewer and fewer people go there, until all that's on the beach is the garbage.

Personally, I figure that if a broad swath of people from several walks of life are all saying "yeah, this place feels hostile to me," and it all keeps pointing back at the same clump of people, maybe there's a fucking problem worth acknowledging.

[hobbit709]

96. The problem is that the poutragers never see themselves as part of the problem.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

101. So, is that a "yes" on being a gender traitor?

If your complaint is some women are beginning to feel DU is hostile to them then it follows to not agree with them would make me a traitor to them.

[Scootaloo]

104. Your logic is more tortured than the plot of a Shyamalan film

[Nuclear Unicorn]

117. Let's see if we can sort this out.

* I ask in the OP if wearing make-up is part of the objectification of women.

* In the OP I also admit that the SI kerfuffle is the reason for my asking because, to be honest, I'm just not getting it; "it" being the reason for such a deep, abiding angst over the swimsuit issue.

* Nonetheless there are those who are upset over the swimsuit issues seem so determined to make this an issue I am left to feel as if I am as a woman betraying their cause.

* You keyed-in on that sentiment and declared that some women may indeed find DU a hostile environment.

* I took your comment -- rightly or wrongly -- to refer to those women who are upset over the swimsuit issue.

* Assuming I was correct as to whom your comment referred, you appear sympathetic to their feelings that would imply that they are on the right side of the argument

* Ergo my lack of getting it puts me on the wrong side of the kerfuffle thereby justifying their disappointment in me as a woman, a traitor to my gender

[seabeyond]

107. thank you. exactly. totally offensive in the passive aggressive slap across the face. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

129. You take exception to the term "gender traitor" and then accuse me of everything

the term denotes. Where, exactly, is the offense?

[LanternWaste]

151. I used to pretend I didn't understand my passive-aggressive comments as such too..

I used to pretend I didn't understand my passive-aggressive comments as such too... yet later I eventually realized I was either an idiot or simply being dishonest with others if not myself.

Pretense is a wonderful way to hide behind that which we're too cowardly to say openly.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

223. Pretense is a wonderful way to hide behind that which we're too cowardly to say openly.

because it needs to be seen in the subject line. Thank you for saying it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

229. I'm thinking that the term "passive-agressive" is fast becoming as meaningless as

"objectification" and "flamebait." They are terms meant to mean everything and anything but devolve into meaning nothing. Every single instance of that term has been employed to dismiss someone with whom the user disagrees without ever coming close to addressing the principle point of disagreement. It's just another -- but more haughty -- way of saying, "You're wrong and you're so wrong you aren't worth my time to explain how wrong you are so I'm just going to tell you you're wrong and leave you here in your wrongness." And off they sniff with their noses in the air, confident in their own pseudo-psychological superiority.

I asked a very straightforward question: how do we draw the lines on what defines objectification?

That the mere posing of the question has been met with such hostility seems to suggest that those taking offense don't want to define the term. I cannot conceive of any reason why this would be the case except to suggest they want the term to mean whatever they desire at any given moment so that it may be employed as a cudgel against those with whom they disagree. Anyone asking them to define the conditions under which the cudgel is employed would de facto also be defining when the cudgel cannot be employed; and I think that is the part that makes them most hostile.

If I am wrong I invite them to state their case as to why (and along the way actually address the question I the OP).

It is analogous to the way the term "racism" was employed against people opposing the Syria kerfuffle. People who had long opposed wars in Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and elsewhere also opposed the prospect of war in Syria and yet the suggestion they were racist was employed with a startling degree of frequency. No, that's not a dismissal that racism exists or that the President might be opposed for reasons of racism over policy but by employing such tactics those doing so diminished the ability to guard against genuine instances of racism. In other words, a crass political tactic cheapened the overall ability to confront both another ill-advised war and real racism.

That's a losing strategy on all fronts.

So, what does -- or does not -- constitute objectification with regards to women expressing their physical attractiveness or allowing others to capitalize on their attractiveness?

That's as plainly and up-front as I can state the issue. Hopefully it will help others not mistake it for passive-aggressiveness.

[Sheldon Cooper]

128. I've said that all along about the owner of this website.

It truly is an unwelcoming place for those not of the hetero-white-male persuasion. And that's the owner's prerogative - I'm given to understand that he is a hetero white male and this is his possession. But in tolerating the conditions here, one cannot turn around and claim that this is a great liberal website. Because clearly, it is not.

Go ahead and alert and hide this if you must. My heart will go on.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

237. I have been saying it too, since the inception of DU3.

[Squinch]

132. Beautifully put!

[geek tragedy]

224. ding ding.

"Any woman who wears eye liner but opposes objectification is a liar and a hypocrite" appears to be the new talking point of Team MRA, including their women's auxillary squad.

[hollysmom]

57. what other people want to do is not my business.

I don't care if men and/or women or dogs or what ever want to wear make up as long as it doesn't hurt them.
This is one of the many things i think is not my business, everyone can just do as they want.

Now if you were curious why people want to wear make up that would be another point of discussion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

238. I think people wear make-up for any number of reasons. and I agree with your post.

[orleans]

59. i think a lot of people look great with make-up

except kids.

i don't bother with it except for lipstick (to keep my lips from chapping & to make it easier to talk and smile...i talk and smile a lot work)

if i had a different job i'd probably wear it but now i'd just sweat it off so ... yuck.

yep. lipstick.
done and done

[trueblue2007]

60. EYE MAKE UP OR ART

[link:|





http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/tal-peleg-eye-makeup-art

[Marrah_G]

102. That was pretty cool

[madrchsod]

202. art...

[alp227]

62. It worked for David Bowie. Depends what kinda look she wants to pull off. nt

[newfie11]

65. A woman can do whatever she wants

Now that we are "liberated" .
It's no ones business if we wear Make-up or not.
Why should everyone be the same!

[patricia92243]

68. Woman should wear makeup if they CHOOSE to. If they CHOOSE to, then it is nobodies else's business.

[eShirl]

75. as long as it's not mandatory, I don't give a rats butt

I hate the way makeup makes my skin feel.

[Half-Century Man]

77. Her choice

My choice to put make up on my face.
...Done...

[JI7]

78. doesn't eliot spitzer wear eyeliner ?

or is that just natural beauty ?

[PassingFair]

222. Can you pan down to the socks?

The socks really seal the deal!

[eridani]

79. Joanna Russ on makeup

http://readingz.livejournal.com/343843.html

The feminism I know began as politics, not rules for living. To call x a feminist issue did not mean there was a good way to do X and a bad way, and that we were tryiong to replace the bad way with the good way. X was a feminist issue because it was the locus of various social pressures (which it made visible and those social pressures were what feminism was all about. Makeup is a feminist issue not because using makeup is anti-feminist and scrubbing your face is feminist but because makeup is compulsory

[KitSileya]

159. Especially for some groups of women, make-up is compulsory if you want to be taken seriously

That is a very feminist issue. It should be a free choice, but it is not - fat women for example, are much more quickly judged as slobs/lazy, and consequently have their health concerns brushed off, and are more unlikely to get jobs if they do not wear make-up, dress really nicely, and wear heels. I would believe the same goes for transgender women too. That is society, and that is what we are trying to change. Wearing make-up, and high-heeled shoes, should be voluntary for anyone, but sadly it isn't. It is "a choice for some women, and an obligation for others," as Melissa McEwan says.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

239. ^ great post, thank you, eridani ^

[sendero]

81. That is a personal choice..

... and nobody's business but the wearer's.

And the idea that women are "objectified" and men aren't is ludicrous on it's face.

[greymattermom]

82. Nope, but I love photoshop

I don't wear makeup because it itches, no matter what kind I use. But, when I have a picture taken for work, I send it to my son for a little photoshop. Digital plastic surgery, my favorite kind.

[PeteSelman]

83. If they want to.

And if they don't, no.

Pretty simple.

[davidpdx]

84. From a male's perspective

No. I dislike make-up in general. I understand why some women wear it and that's fine. I think it hides natural beauty.

I saw the SI thread and stayed out of it as there was just too much rudeness going on.

Here in South Korea there is somewhat of an obsession about looks, especially among women. Plastic surgery is very common. Even among males in some professions (mine included) here looks are taken into consideration.

Now I'm not a very good looking guy and I've never been overly self-conscious, but people will come right out and tell you what you need to change. I have a very good friend and former co-worker who is female who taught here for many years and she got told she was fat (by the way she was far from it). So I'm not the only one that has observed the more obsessive side of looks here.

Sorry just my rant about cultural differences and beauty.

[WinkyDink]

89. You THINK you dislike make-up. And "fat"is not the same topic at all.

[davidpdx]

92. So

It all has to do with people's opinion of what does or doesn't look beautiful. My point is both objectify people.

[liberal N proud]

85. A woman should not feel pressure either way

She either chooses to wear make-up or she chooses not to. And any pressure from either direction is wrong!!!!

[idendoit]

268. That is indeed the point.

We all feel pressured to conform to gender roles every day of our lives. It taints how we see ourselves and others.

[RiffRandell]

87. Personal choice.

I love wearing makeup.

[WinkyDink]

88. Women have been wearing make-up since before Cleopatra VII. People get hair-cuts. They shave. It's

called "making one's self look good."

So look plain if you want.

[Ghost in the Machine]

93. If they WANT TO!.. It's their choice, and theirs alone! N/T

[HappyMe]

95. I wear make up.

I think it's a personal choice.

I also don't think any man or woman should be telling me that I can or cannot wear make up.

[MadrasT]

97. Personal choice

However, for me, I felt it to be hypocritical for me to wear makeup and also complain about being objectified.

I now choose to not wear it (and haven't for years).

[The Straight Story]

98. What we need here is some good door to door work and some tracts:

The scene is a college dorm and our two new missionaries are Anna and Beth:

(knocking on door)

Amy: Hi..uh can we help you?

Anna: No, but we can help you. I am Anna and I see you are wearing the chains of the oppressor and myself and Beth are here to help you break them.

Amy and Sandy: What?
Amy: The only thing I am wearing is a dress to the dance tonight. Thank you goodbye!

Beth: Heed our words and open your eyes! That dress you have on was created by men to enhance your figure and how you appear, the makeup you have covered up with is a veil of oppression and objectifying you - you are being painted to be presented to the male of the species for his sexual gratification.

Sandy: You mean men will notice us at the dance tonight? Like the guys over at sigma delta alpha?

(Anna and Beth look sadly at one another and shake their heads)

Anna: A dance? The good book says such things, especially when combined with makeup and dresses, is likened to a female apocalypse brought on by the demon Manispig. Your lives will be terrible if you continue on this path. Yes, those men will 'notice' you if that is what you want to call it. They will lust after you, want to have sex and thus use your body their desires...

Amy: Go on....please, proceed

Beth: Men are the reason you are spending money on make up and dresses. You are selling yourself to them as a product, to be purchased and used solely for their pleasure. Women in our society - well just look at magazine covers. Does it strike you as odd that they don't have women on them who look like they just woke up? They don't care about the contents of women, just the packaging. If a man is attracted to you and wants to use you for his own pleasure is that what you want? Don't you want to be desired for what is inside of you? Since a man wants to be inside you shouldn't he see that as the most important part?

Sandy: We're going to a dance. We want to be noticed. And we plan on scoping out some men we want to have sex with, and trust me when I say we plan on looking at some packaging ourselves.

Anna: So...you are atheists? Can't you see how what you are doing is destroying the rain forests? They test that make up on rabbits and cut down the amazon so you can enjoy others looking at you.

Amy: They cut down trees so I can wipe by butt too, but I am not going to stop.

(Slams door)

Beth (looking horrified): So they libertarians and atheists? What has become of this generation sister Anna?

Anna: It is shocking my friend. We have our work cut out for us. They seem to believe they have a mind of their own and desires of their own. They do not understand that the desires they have are wrong and controlled by men who don't wear makeup or dresses.

Sandy: I think we are needed at this party. We should follow them to it and invade the den on iniquity. We have truth and the word with us.


Tune in next week for the next thrilling episode "Party of the damned"

[blueamy66]

99. None of your business

Should they wear yoga pants? Wash their hair daily? Shave their legs? Paint their fingernails?

Did you really post this?

[shedevil69taz]

203. Actually...

Washing your hair daily is worse for it than say cutting back to two or three times a week...men and women.

[blueamy66]

241. Can't do it.

I'm too anal about my hair.

[shedevil69taz]

282. I used to be that way too...

my fiancee got me to try cutting down to 4 times a week, and figured out I don't need more than three a week...

http://www.webmd.com/beauty/shampoo/how-often-wash-hair

[blueamy66]

284. My hair is not too thick...

need the volumizing shampoo for any and all the body I can get

[seabeyond]

103. none of my business and ya nuclear, i know you have been mystified of late. if you actually

listened to the discussion you would understand it is not about telling women to wear, or not wear make up. that is silly.

[loli phabay]

105. if they want, only caveat should be please know how to and what works

What works for one person does not work for everybody. In the end though its the individuals choice. Same that goes for hairstyles, shaving, piercongs, tatoos and clothes.

[Squinch]

108. Should a woman flamebait?

[MadrasT]

110. ^^^ thread win ^^^

[HappyMe]

113. I would imagine that would be her choice.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

130. The term "flamebait" is also losing its meaning.

It has come to mean everything, anything and nothing; in equal measures.

[reusrename]

191. It's becoming impossible to have a somewhat intelligent conversation.

Flamebait? Really?

From what I see the OP goes right to the heart of the discussion. And that's why some are so uncomfortable with it.

There seems to be a blurring of the lexicon, and every time I see that happening my hackles get raised. Sometimes it's a good thing but at other times it's just more propaganda.

This whole discussion (or the little part that I've seen of it) seems to break down over people's understanding of objectification and sexuality.

Sure objectification is something that a person can be made aware of and turn on or off.

Sexuality is something much different. They are being conflated, either intentionally or unintentionally, in order to score points in this debate.

At least that's how it looks to me.

To respond to the OP, all sorts of people wear all sorts of makeup for all sorts of reasons. When a woman puts on makeup to make herself more sexually attractive it is usually just as effective as any other form of communication. There's no honesty in lying about its effectiveness or its intent.

If that same woman then complains about folks making sexual advances to her, well that's where I see an issue, and it has very little to do with the whole "objectification" argument.

[MineralMan]

111. I think women should do as they please about makeup.

That seems simple enough.

[brooklynite]

112. I think I have a solution to this issue...

Personally, I'm going with "let people express themselves any damn way they want.

[TeeYiYi]

141. I think I have a solution to your solution...

TYY

[cyberswede]

115. It should be an individual choice, but...

I think it's too bad that societal pressure compels some women (and girls) to feel they have to wear it.

I played around with eyeshadow in junior high, but never liked the makeup thing myself. I don't own any (except the jr. high stuff stuck in a closet somewhere - lol)

I'm not sure what I'll say to my 11 y.o. daughter if she shows an interest in makeup. I guess I'll just make sure she understands that she's not obligated to wear it, and the only person she needs to make the decision for is herself, and it's totally up to her. On a side note, some of her classmates have started shaving their legs...so I'm sure *that* conversation will come up before I want it to.

[Chorophyll]

118. Women should do whatever the hell they want to do.

I'm a feminist, but I wear makeup. I don't think one's outer trappings are the real core of the matter.

[treestar]

121. It should be up to the individual, but

My question is, how does it really increase attractiveness? And what of the inevitable "disappointment" of the man when he realizes eventually due to being around a lot that she does not really look like her made up self? Or is he just more interested in how she looks in public so that his wife is the most "attractive?"

I remember in 8th grade, we had a model come to our school. The girls were taken out separately to hear some advice from her. How enlightened (this was about 1972). The make up companies were selling the idea you need foundation to protect your skin from pollution. Why don't men need foundation then?

[hrmjustin]

122. That is up to the individual.

[Adrahil]

123. Complicated subject....

.... I think it's ridiculous that women feel the need to paint themselves up to be acceptable. It's roots are definitely in patriarchy.

BUT.... women today also need to participate the world.... a world that expects them to wear make-up in some situations.

My wife does not wear make-up, and works in a job where it is not necessary.

But many of our friends do wear make-up every day. Most of them aren't very self-reflexive about it.... it's just something women do to them.

My daughter, now 11, wants to wear make-up. She's inundated with images of beauty that demand make-up. And she wants to fit in with her peers.

For now the answer is NO for anything beyond lip gloss and nail polish (except when she performs), but when she gets older, we'll allow her to make her own decisions.

I wish we'd move to a world where women feel they do NOT have paint themselves to be acceptable in public.

HOWEVER, I think "weird" make-up is awesome (see my avatar). And I think men look awesome in it too (see: Adam Ant)

[rug]

125. A flamewar about makeup?

I can now die in peace.

(No, I'm not going to discuss the merits of cremation versus embalming.)

[malaise]

127. I don't wear make up unless I'm attending a meeting, conference

or going out to the theatre/parties/functions.

I like make up, but hate wasting money so I don't use for day to day work.
Tough for whoever, but I like dressing up too - and dressing down and oh.
I love this too.


L'Air du Temps Nina Ricci for women

[catbyte]

131. Seriously, I haven't worn makeup since my hot flashes kicked in

I don't miss it a bit.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

133. I do. And I won't apologize to anyone...

for doing so. Whether I glop it on like Mimi, or apply it more subtly.

My choice.

[HappyMe]

166. ...and there it is.

My face = my CHOICE.

[noamnety]

134. There's a balance between society's needs and our own.

There's one answer that's the best thing for society as a whole (for ALL of us to stop participating in sexist rituals), and an opposing answer that can mean empowering us as individuals. Looking a certain way can mean being more successful in our jobs.

That's what a lot of people seem to be missing in the swimsuit debate or wrecking ball debate. "This disempowers women" seems to be always met with at least one comment pointing out how rich those individual women are as a result of their choices. Yes, no shit. Being objectified - if you can be awesome at it - can absolutely result in personal power. And yet the result can be reinforcing less power for women as a group.

I don't think women should be obligated to stop shaving their legs or wearing makeup at the office, if the result is that they get passed over for hiring or promotions. I don't believe we're obligated to become personal martyrs to the system. I wish women who were already repulsively rich and set for life weren't so greedy or looking for approval - or whatever motivates them - to continue to do things that set other women back. At some point they become like the Walmart family, personal wealth at anyone's expense. But that doesn't apply to the 99%.

I wear light makeup at work. I wish I didn't feel it was necessary. I'm not under any delusions that I'm doing it "for myself" - because when I'm home alone, I don't put it on.

[Coyotl]

135. Should I have an opinion about what others choose to wear? Let me think and

I'll bet back to you if I come up with a good answer.

[tallahasseedem]

137. I'm pro-choice

Women should be able to do whatever they want when it comes to makeup…it's no one's business.

I happen to love makeup and wear it most often during the weekdays, makeup free on the weekends. I have a lot of fun working with different shadows, liners, lipstick, etc. I don't do it to make anyone happy but myself.

p.s. This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe that we're debating make up when the Republican party is waging a full on war on abortion.

[840high]

138. I don't wear make-up.

[bigwillq]

139. They should do whatever they want to do

Make up. No make up.

Their body. Their choice.

[BainsBane]

140. PEOPLE should wear whatever the hell they want

End of discussion.

[pintobean]

144. Including swimwear.

[BainsBane]

146. LOL

Are you arguing that wardrobe choices in those magazines are the women's?




Oh, such derpitude.

[pintobean]

150. Are you saying they're forced

to wear things that they don't want to wear? If you have any evidence to support that, you should notify the proper authorities.

I was agreeing with your statement.

PEOPLE should wear whatever the hell they want

[BainsBane]

156. There are some basic things one assumes anyone knows

Models are there to work. They aren't their to display their personal sense of style. They wear what they are told, stand how they are told, and use facial expressions that evoke what the client wants them to. Their choice begins and ends at accepting the job. After that, the decisions are entirely the client's, in this case, SI.

Turn on the TV and watch any episode of America's Next Top Model and you'll see how much say a model has in her wardrobe on set. Read a memoir of some model, any model.

I'm not interested in discussing the issue of the SI cover, or any other issue, with you. You clearly are not interested or able to understand what I think, and I don't have the patience for conversation with someone whose primary interest is nurturing a personal grudge against me. Nothing I have ever written about this or any related issue suggests women or anyone else should wear anything other than what they want.

When you make ridiculous comments like the one above, you only highlight how little you understand about not only feminist critiques but basic circumstances of photoshoots. I'm starting to understand why you so seldom discuss any issue of substance.

[pintobean]

163. It always comes down to insults.

Lately, you're not even original; you've been dredging the creek.

Instead of "end of discussion", that should have been "unless I disapprove".

[BainsBane]

168. Clearly you don't need to discuss anything with me anyway

Since the conversation you carry on in your own head is far more fascinating to you. So by all means, proceed without me.

[snooper2]

221. Gaga is kind of like a model right? All image?

I do think Beyonce has a couple good points in this video though

[Logical]

160. Are you arguing someone forced them to take the picture??? really?? nt

[BainsBane]

169. I'm arguing they are models, which no one should have to argue since it is basic fact.

They are doing a job. They wear what they are told and pose as they are told. That's what being a model entails. They didn't pick those clothes anymore than they are smiling at you personally. I was perfectly clear already. Among the things I have been clear about is having zero interest in discussing this issue. I stayed out of those threads for a reason. You all complain about the so-called gender wars and then don't let an issue drop, follow people and brining it up in unrelated threads. There are only so many times I will have the same conversation and my quota expired on this well over a year ago. If you are so fascinated with this subject, go back to one of those threads and talk to someone who might actually be interested.

[Logical]

170. When did I complain about the gender wars? links please. n-t

[BainsBane]

174. This answers all your questions

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024513257

[Logical]

176. I have a lot of link I woud like to send you also. n-t

[muriel_volestrangler]

214. You stayed out of these threads?

You started one on the subject: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4510268

and that was after posting in this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4509977

[pintobean]

227. Not to mention the "prepubescent boys" thread

and assorted meta hof threads.

[BainsBane]

244. that second thread was about apes

and rereading it I see it doesn't even mention the SI issue. My thread was an attempt to create a positive thread that addressed the issue rather than feeding the flamebait. It was one of the most popular threads on DU over the past couple of days, so clearly many people enjoyed it.

I did post about the issue in HOF. You'll find more direct references there. The point is I do not wish to feed flamebait or discuss it with people who are entirely uninterested in doing anything but picking fights, who make a point of not understanding because their privilege is far too important to them.

Was I supposed to seek your permission for any of that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. You said the 2nd thread was about male privilege, and mentioned SI in it yourself

353. Nevermind the idea that looking at magazines serves no biological purpose

The biological imperative is toward perpetuation of the species. Nothing in the buying and selling of photoshopped images accomplishes that. Then there is the fact is there is nothing constant or biological about notions of beauty. That SI chooses thin, white women whose hips would have trouble accommodating childbirth has nothing to do with biology. It is a function of beauty standards of the dominant capitalist culture of he United States of America in 2014. Sixty years ago those images were very different, even in the dominant capitalist culture of the United States of America. Add other cultural and historical contexts, the differences are even greater. The idea that there is anything biological about SI, looking at SI, or posting SI in GD is simply idiotic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4510122

Not surprising, since the thread was a reaction to another thread saying "men like to look at women's bottoms because we're apes", which was a reaction to the huge SI thread. No, of course you don't need permission from anyone to participate in threads, or start them. I was just pointing out that you didn't stay out of the threads, despite your assertion in this thread.

[BainsBane]

250. Now you point to an entirely different post

I never claimed not to discuss sexism or objectification. I talk about them with some frequency. What I am done doing--or at least attempting to stop doing--is feeding flamebait and engaging in endless discussions that go nowhere. I am entitled to discuss or not discuss what I want with whomever I want. If I change my mind five minutes from now, that is also my right, and you have absolutely zero say over the matter.

Might I suggest you find something more productive to you with your time than watching me? I do not reciprocate your fascination and frankly find it unsettling.

[muriel_volestrangler]

252. I talked about threads, as you did, until now

Now you just want to be able to point to one particular post in that thread and say "I didn't mention SI in that post", whereas you had earlier claimed that SI wasn't mentioned in the whole thread. Of course you can change your mind. But don't be surprised when the contradictions, obvious because your thread on the subject is prominent in the forum (yes, that's 'watching you' - reading the first page of GD), are pointed out in reply to you.

[BainsBane]

257. I meant post. Obviously I didn't reread the whole thread.

Whatever. Your fixation with the trivial is tiresome. The point is that my posting habits are none of your concern, absolutely none. You didn't even bother to ask what threads I was referring to in my post to Logical. You decided that should include any thread related to gender and that I wasn't allowed to mention SI or swimsuits ever. But really, what you think about what I discuss and where is irrelevant. I repeat. I have a right to converse with people who get it and forsake conversations on the same subject with others. That I discuss the issue in HOF or in Boston's thread puts me under no obligation to discuss the issue in a separate thread, on another subject. That you choose to devote your time to my posting habits rather than any substantive issue is, frankly, strange. I request you find something else to devote your energies to.

[muriel_volestrangler]

259. If your posting habits aren't our concern, then don't tell us "I stayed out of those threads"

You thought your posting habits were worth mentioning.

[eridani]

207. How to get a bikini body

[gollygee]

212. The criticism in that case

isn't aimed at the model and her choices, but at society as a whole and how women are presented and viewed in society (most often as objects rather than subjects.)

[whistler162]

194. I take it you have never seen G. Gordon Liddy's

Speedo picture! <SHUDDER>

[BainsBane]

195. No, but I suspect you may have a valid point there.

[YoungDemCA]

205. +1

nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

142. I'll leave that up to the women in question. n/t

[Heidi]

143. I don't wear makeup in order to appeal to men, and even if I did,

it would be nobody's business but my own. No woman's business. No man's business. My body, my choice.

[Scout]

145. if she wants to, sure.

but i wonder why she thinks there is something wrong with her face, that she needs to put goop on it.

i wear makeup OCCASIONALLY, for a special occasion where i am going to be dressing up. but then it's just part of the "dressed up" appearance that i don't normally have--dressing up is panty hose, dress shoes, dress slacks or a skirt/dress, accessories, jewelry, and a little mascara, a little blush, some powder, MAYBE lipstick.

for everyday, i don't bother with makeup. clean clothes, neat appearance, clean hair, brushed teeth--that's sufficient and comfortable.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

147. Yes, but only on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and 3-day weekends.

And she should only wear makeup on one half of her face--the half that most commonly is inclined in the direction of Tulsa. Also, men over the age of 27 are to wear blue eyeshadow at all times. I'm glad I could be of help.

[LanternWaste]

148. I don't pretend to know. However, I also don't pretend to know...

I don't pretend to know. However, I also don't pretend to know (or be offended) when one African American youth calls another what I consider to be a racially charged name, nor do I presume that the one is being a traitor to his race.

I do think that by shaving my beard off some years back and cutting off some ridiculously long-hair, I crossed no lines... but being a guy, I do tend to have a lot more latitude in my perceived freedoms of expression.

[dembotoz]

149. my opinion has no relevance it should be up to them

[Puzzledtraveller]

152. if they want to

[itsrobert]

153. It's their choice

I would be sexist to dictate if they should wear make-up or not.

[Butterbean]

154. You can have my make up case

That is stocked to the brim with cosmetics (that you'd probably pass out if I told you what I spent on them) and my beloved brush collection when you tear it from my perfectly manicured hands.



To each his or her own. I love my small army of makeup. *blows raspberry*

[Cleita]

155. Yes, they should and so should men. There was a time men

could wear makeup without having their masculinity questioned. I think some makeup to cover flaws and enhance good features makes you feel better when our facing the world. I'm almost 74 and wear makeup, color my hair and get manicures.

[northoftheborder]

157. I have great naturally white hair, but....

.....when my dark brows and lashes started turning white, my eyes disappeared, so I now wear eyeliner and a bit of shadow. (did not need it when young). Also, my skin is pale, and has a lot of dark spots; so, I wear concealer and a bit of blush. It looks natural and keeps me from looking ill. We women (and men) should do whatever we wish with our hair, skin, etc..

I don't like to see young girls with already naturally vibrant skin and hair just pile on the make-up. But that's just my opinion. Wear more when appropriate for the occasion.

[arely staircase]

158. as long as they have their husband's permission and it has been thoroughly tested on animals nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. i wish men wore makeup. nt

[retread]

162. Some do!!

[Codeine]

216. I wore it in high school.

Eyeliner and black lipstick seemed so cool at the time.

[Ex Lurker]

164. If women want to wear makeup, they should. If they don't, they shouldn't. Seems pretty simple nt.

[NM_Birder]

167. Men and women should be forced to shave their heads

monthly, and wear the same gray oversize shirts and pants with closed toe utilitarian shoes. All individualism should be questioned, strict adherence to a policy designed to eliminate all differences, to make sure no person feels better about themselves than any other person. magnifying personal beauty will not be tolerated.

Mating will be for the sake of propagating the species, women will be assigned a mate via a blind lottery to ensure no woman has an opportunity to betray all other women by accentuating their personal attributes.

No male nor female human unit will be allowed to be more attractive than the least attractive among them.

Also, perfume should be abolished. The pleasant aroma of a woman's perfume is a lie, because they stink just as bad as a man.

I'm sure you realize this is sarcasm,...... but how far are you willing to go to avoid "betraying" your fellow woman....to wit "morality is an art, it involves knowing where to draw the line".

How pretty should a woman be allowed to be ?

[tallahasseedem]

172. +1

[HappyMe]

173. We must write to or await instructions

from the Front Office. They and only They will tell me what I should do in this make-up conundrum. I'm too stupid to decide for myself.

[Cleita]

177. Also if a woman can gain monetary advantage by using

her accentuated good looks, like as a model, actress or other, she shouldn't be demonized for it. After all we still make 30% less than men for the same job. So if there is the opportunity, take it.

[NM_Birder]

213. an actress or model ?

BLASPHEMY ! How dare a woman work in a field that rewards physical attractiveness ? This thread was all about questioning the moral fiber of one woman attempting to make herself more attractive than another via some MAN-made face paste, or to "betray" her fellow woman as the OP put it.

Women should be drone copies of each other, mind body and spirit...... make equal pay as a man ? .....your peas must have rolled off your plate.........women make the same pay as a man..... next thing you know you'll advocate for them to go to school.......or DRIVE ?!


MADNESS I say...sheer MADNESS !

[RebelOne]

171. I wouldn't even go out to walk my dog without makeup.

I have to go for cataract surgery on Wednesday and was told not to wear any makeup. Even though my appointment is for 6 a.m., I will be wearing sunglasses.

[Sissyk]

187. Good luck with your surgery, RebelOne!

I hope everything goes well.

[RebelOne]

192. Thanks, Sissyk. n/t

[WinkyDink]

209. I'm with you! (Only I say "To get my newspaper"!)

[mythology]

175. Personally I think most women look better without it

But unless it's really over the top, I can't bring myself to actually care.

But I can't remember when most of the women in my personal life wore make up. My mom never has and the women I most interact with outside of my family are usually too sweaty from working out to have make up on.

But I wouldn't call a woman a gender traitor for wearing make up. I don't even know what a gender traitor would be and I'd be loathe to use the word given the history of the phrase race traitor.

[Cleita]

179. Young women look good without it. The rest of us need help

from what life has left on our faces like circles and bags under our eyes, lines from too much sun and sallow, gray skin from overwork and lack of sleep.

[The empressof all]

180. I generally don't care

I rarely use it myself and even as a young woman never wore it on a regular basis. However if I am perfectly honest, I do pass a bit of internal judgement on women who refuse to leave the house without it or who apply it heavily or poorly. It's one of those little secret judgie things many of us do.

[Chan790]

181. Only if they want to.

Isn't that what empowerment and self-determination is all about?

[Thinkingabout]

183. This is a woman's choice, if she feels good with the makeup then go for it.

This is not a choice to be given to anyone else. Stay outta my bedroom, my makeup, my contraception, my love life and my money.

[frogmarch]

184. Sure, if they want to.

I'm 70 and still wear a little make-up. I've never worn much because I don't like it to "show."

I remember back in the 1960s when magazines gave make-up tips. Oh, I guess they still do, don't they? Anyway, one tip that irked me said to use a lipstick pencil and draw a smile by penciling upward curves at the corners of our lips.

Edited to add: Another beauty tip said to practice smiling without using our eyes, because we don't want ugly old crow's feet, do we?

[rrneck]

196. What horrible advice.

Smiling with "dead eyes" is a great way to look sinister.

[WillowTree]

185. Skipped all the other responses. Mine? A woman should wear make-up only if she wants to.

Things sure have gotten weird around here lately.

[CrispyQ]

186. Personally, I think men should.

[anti partisan]

188. As I hope any feminist would agree, this should be up to individual women themselves.

All I would say is use your judgment wisely. If you don't want to be viewed as a ____, don't dress like one. Same goes with men.

[LWolf]

190. Free will.

Choice.

A better question:

Should our culture condition people to think women aren't attractive without it? That they need it? That they aren't caring about themselves if they don't use it? Should women be made to feel that they aren't attractive without it?

I started using makeup in middle school because it was expected. I didn't wear much. I had a boyfriend in high school who encouraged me to "put some of that blue stuff on your eyes." I understood when he took me home to meet his family; a houseful of mothers and sisters who wouldn't be caught sleeping without their makeup, and who spent a lot of time and energy giving me makeovers and trying to convince me how much better it made me look.

I never wore much; a bit of mascara because I was blonde, a bit of blush because I was pale/fair-skinned. I left even that behind somewhere in my early 30s. I haven't worn any makeup at all in 2+ decades, and haven't missed it. I also don't color my hair, and while it gets a daily washing and brushing, and some hairspray to keep it neat through my very, very long days without needing more attention, I don't dry it, curl it, or anything else. I get out of the shower, comb it, and brush and spray it when it dries. About 60 seconds worth of time. I'm clean and neat. I like it that way.

The result? I'm fine with myself, and ignore the pitying looks and whispered advice some women will give me about hair and makeup. My mother being the primary culprit when it comes to that. She doesn't understand why I don't want to be "pretty," and doesn't understand that "pretty" is not based on hair color and makeup.

[texanwitch]

193. I don't and never have.

You are not the only one.

It must get expensive.

[llmart]

197. I've always worn some makeup.

Like some of the other older women on here have said, a little foundation just smoothes out all the uneven tones and adds some moisture and sunblock. My skin is light and gets blotchy very easily too. When I was a young woman, the conventional wisdom was that sunbathing was good for you - soak up all that great Vitamin D - with no sunblock, just baby oil. Well, of course now we know it causes sun damage. So the foundation helps to hide a bit of it.

I don't wear as much makeup as I used to when I was younger, but I do feel naked without my foundation and some lip gloss with a very light color every day. I used to always use mascara when I was younger, but I wear glasses now and no longer have the patience that eye makeup demands. I don't have enough years left on this earth to spend them trying to unclump the few eyelashes I do have. For very special occasions I'll break out the contacts I wear so that the eye makeup actually makes a difference, but those occasions are about once a year! Hey, getting older can be liberating. So can living alone

I finally had to admit to myself that I have never really had much fashion sense or girly girl interest. My wardrobe is so pathetic because I abhor shopping. Women friends are usually speechless when they see my entire collection of clothing fits in one-half of a medium sized closet and the clothes are pretty nicely space. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I absolutely can't tolerate uncomfortable clothes so I never wore some of the things that were in style.

Having said all that, I have always wished I could be one of those women who could just wash her face, moisturize and walk out the door. I have one younger friend who has the most beautiful skin and perfect facial coloring and features and she can actually do that. However, I also have a friend who has never had much of a bust and she's never worn a bra in her life, but you will never catch me with my 36D bust going out without a bra.

Hey, that just gave me an idea for starting my own thread on "Should women wear bras?" That should be the next contentious GD topic, no?

[Cleita]

198. I just want to hug you.

You feel like me. I would love the most girly of things, but can only afford a fraction of what I would like, but I like comfort too so I do wear what I like, not what others think I should.

[llmart]

217. Awww...you're sweet.

Every once in awhile I get in the mood to shop (about once or twice a year) for some new slacks or a new top, but I'm on a very fixed income now and I have to be much more careful with money. I am a more low-key person and my "style" if you want to call it that, leans towards more of a classic look - not trendy. I don't wear any jewelry. Heck, even my style of decorating my house is minimalist/low key/comfortable/not cluttered. But I do like a few accessories in my house to make it look inviting and not bare. So I finally came to realize that this is the true me, even when it comes to my looks and clothing. My mantra is "quality not quantity" which, of course, is so out of fashion in our country. Most people these days are all about accumulating lots and lots of stuff.

I guess I never got the "shopping gene" that most women have. It seems such a waste of time. I'm an outdoors person and malls make me feel unsettled. I get in them and get overwhelmed by all the choices.

Growing up in the '50's I was what people would call a "tomboy" back then and I was fine with it. My mother just let me be because I was one of the youngest of seven children and she was probably too exhausted to try to "fix" me. LOL

[LadyHawkAZ]

199. If they want to, they should be able to

I don't. I use lipstain when I want to feel dressy, but that's about it. Three of my daughters wear it all the time, though.

[TorchTheWitch]

201. what business is it of yours?

Not only do you want to tell other women they shouldn't wear make-up you want to tell them why they wear it. If you don't want to wear make-up than don't.

What else do you think you have the right to tell women what they should or shouldn't do or wear or think or behave, and why is that you don't seem to care what men do or wear or think or behave?

Good grief.

Tomorrow I think I'll glop on so much make-up that I'll need to slap it on with a gardening trowel and it runs down onto my chest and let you stew about why in honor of this revolting post. Hell, I'll even dress in the most outlandish bits of clothing I can find to boot. And just to send you into a lather that I'm somehow betraying womankind I'll enjoy every moment it of it and spend as much time as I possibly can parading around in public. Maybe I'll even do some public twerking.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

260. "Not only do you want to tell other women -- "

No. Actually, I don't; any more than I want to tell them posing for a swimsuit photo shoot is objectifying and exploitative.

[AgingAmerican]

206. Sure, why not?

Its really none of my business if they want to, or dont want to, wear makeup.

[Waiting For Everyman]

208. Only if it doesn't clash with their burkas.

But not for Amish tea parties. That would be tacky.

( )

[gollygee]

210. If they want to. n/t

[TheMathieu]

211. Well:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

219. SMH/NT

[Rex]

220. No, women should be told what to wear by men.

====> <====

[geek tragedy]

225. Women should be able to wear whatever they want without

being treated as less human by others.

Next stupid question?

[Adrahil]

228. Many replies like this, but I'll address this one.

Of course women should wear what they want.

But it is foolish to ignore the CONTEXT in which the use of this kind of make-up by women. Women have treated as the property of men for a long time. They have been socialized generation after generation that their value is in their attractiveness to men.

Now don;t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being attractive, and I don't necessarily object to make up per se (see my avatar, I like wacky make up), but the use of make-up, and high heels, and similar types of articles exists within the context of making women more attractive to men. Even if you support it, you cannot ignore that context.

[geek tragedy]

230. you're mixed up on a couple of points:

1) women wear make-up and flashy clothes for reasons other than attracting male attention.
2) even where women do want to make themselves attractive to men, that is not the same as consenting to being objectified by men.

Attraction and objectification are two vastly different things.

Remarking upon Sophia Loren's beauty is not objectification. Referring to women as 'pussy' or 'tits n' ass' is objectifying.

[Adrahil]

232. I disagree....

Let's consider "business attire"

Why don't men make themselves up that way?

Why don't men wear high heels?

Why don't men wear tight-fitting skirts?

Simple... men are are dressing to impress other men. To project an image of power and wealth.

Many women (but not all by far) dress to impress men SEXUALLY. Not to project competence, or power. There are exceptions. I've always loved Hillary and her pant suits because of that.

There is a history to all this. It's there for you to research, if you choose to. Today's world does not exist outside an historical context. Women are no making decisions today independent of that context, whatever they may think. Neither are men, BTW.

[geek tragedy]

233. So you're saying that Scottish men who wear kilts

are inviting sexual scrutiny from other men?

[Adrahil]

235. Now don't get silly....

even the most casual of research would indicate that the origins of the kilt and a tight fitting skirt have nothing in common.

I have never seen a kilt that hugged the ass and was tight to the legs.

I'm willing to discuss this if we avoid clearly ridiculous statements.

[geek tragedy]

236. this conversation started off clearly ridiculous

origins have only a tangential relationship to current practices.

women may dress a certain way because it makes them feel good and more confident. Certainly, under your analysis, married women would all be wearing burkas. I mean, why else would they show off their hair unless they're trying to whip up the lust of men?

Not every decision women make revolves around whether it pleases men.

And nothing a woman does licenses men to objectify them.

[PasadenaTrudy]

242. I also think

that women sometimes dress up for other women, in an one-upmanship kind of way. I'm fascinated by this being an aging hippie who has never done the makeup and heels thing. It's just not how I navigate the world

[Adrahil]

243. Yes....

competition for sexual attention is a definite part of this history.

And BTW, I don't condemn women who choose to participate to cultural practices such as this. Some choose to live outside such norms (such as you, or my wife), but it's a lot to ask of people to reject cultural norms.

[PasadenaTrudy]

245. True true

I went to art school and rejected the marriage, mortgage, and kids narrative. It was easy for me, but there is that pressure on most people to conform.

[Coyotl]

234. I have never worn make-up, not even once. My Mother likewise, etc. for millions of years.

Why start now?


Video Shows Ladies That Too Much Makeup Is Gross
After 365 layers of makeup, the face of model Hannelore Knuts is transformed into a dripping mess.

We've all noticed (OK, blatantly stared at) women whose good looks are spoiled by piles of makeup. (Watch The Real Housewives of Orange County for a parade of examples; seriously, these ladies wear false lashes to buy groceries.) The Dutch artists and directors Lernert Engelberts and Sander Plug (who go by Lernert & Sander) take tragic makeup to the extreme in their latest short film, Natural Beauty, in which 365 layers of makeup are spackled onto the handsome face of Belgian model Hannelore Knuts.

[Beacool]

240. it's an individual choice.

I don't wear it on a daily basis, but I wear it on a night out or any occasion where I feel like sprucing up. When I do wear it, it's because I feel like it. I don't feel pressure one way or another to wear it. I work for a Fortune 100, women here seem to be 50 - 50 with the make-up issue. Some wear ir daily and some don't. It's not a big deal.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

249. "Should" is not applicable - it's not a decision with moral consequences.

It doesn't benefit or harm anyone else, so it's entirely a personal decision. The idea that wearing lipstick makes you "a traitor your gender" is just laughable.

The notable exception to that is that you very much *shouldn't* use cosmetics that have been tested on animals.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

261. "It doesn't benefit or harm anyone else, so it's entirely a personal decision."

Could it not be supposed that an attractive woman with suggestive make-up might hold an advantage over a less attractive woman with no make-up in, say, a job interview?

Could it also not be suggested that if social expectations tend toward objectifying women than anything that accentuates physically attractive features contributes to the overall denigration?

We are, after all, being told an annual magazine feature is harming women as a group.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

262. Is it immoral to wear a suit?

It's possible that wearing lipstick may give you an advantage in an interview, just as wearing a smart suit may.

>Could it also not be suggested that if social expectations tend toward objectifying women than anything that accentuates physically attractive features contributes to the overall denigration?

Yes, that could certainly be suggested. I could also suggest that Joe Biden is an baby-eating space crab from Mars.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

263. "I could also suggest that Joe Biden is an baby-eating space crab from Mars."

A more apt analogy would be helpful. I'm not saying that to be confrontational but to elicit a meaningful explanation.

Scientists will tell you there is no such thing as a failed experiment because even a negative or unanticipated result reveals things you didn't already know. So even explaining how make-up would not contribute to objectification would in turn help define what is objectification and thereby eliminate misapplications of the term.

[JustAnotherGen]

253. Sure

And if spend too much money on http://www.agentprovocateur.com/ whose to say that makes me less of a feminist? Pfft! Or less of a liberal or progressive because I'm 'frivolous' and can afford it?

[KamaAina]

255. If they want to

One of the most attractive women I know rarely does. She lets her gorgeous head of long red hair speak for itself.

[UncleMuscles]

258. DU "Gender Wars" have officially jumped the shark with this thread

[MrMickeysMom]

264. Sure… why not, if you want to wear it?

Some days I feel like an artist, and frankly, some days I don't. My husband doesn't care. Who cares? Well… the public, if you find that you ARE a more public figure.

But, the nice thing is that I have a choice to do either.

[a la izquierda]

265. I wear very little.

I'm 36, have always worn minimal makeup, and have generally been told I don't need it.

[Duppers]

266. make-up wearing female here & I don't give a damn what anyone else does

And I'm damn glad make-up was invented by the ancients Egyptians or whomever. Never liked my freckles and almost invisible eyelashes, soooo make-up and tattooed eyeliner solved that problem.

To each their own! Live & let live, etc.

Each woman should do what they please, for themselves or for whomever they wish to please!!! It's none of anyone else's business.

[ohheckyeah]

267. I think women who want to wear makeup should

and those who don't want to shouldn't and both groups should mind their own business.

I don't wear it every day but do wear it on occasion. My face, my choice.

[Wolf Frankula]

269. If They Want To

My wife seldom wears make-up. Fine with me. I've known women who didn't feel dressed without makeup. Fine with me.

BTW if you're a man and you want to wear makeup, go ahead.

Wolf

[lonestarnot]

270. Some of it provides for uba and uva protection. Also some may have an obvious mark or scar they

did not request.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

271. I have seen the sun protection argument elsewhere in this thread

and while I do not discount it I doubt that is the reason most women wear make-up. And, if that were the reason I would think more men would avail themselves of make-up wearing as well.

[lonestarnot]

272. Maybe more do than care to admit.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

273. I'm afraid I'll have to register myself a skeptic of that assertion absent any foundation for it.

Get it? I said "foundation" in a discussion about make-up.

I kill me.

[lonestarnot]

274. tee hee.

[CFLDem]

277. It can only help if it's done right.

Most social stature is assumed based on looks alone since 80% of communication is nonverbal.

Wearing make-up allows women to accentuate their trump card of being able to tug on men's heart strings, and intimidate other women with their beauty.

My personally preference is no make-up but it can't hurt if they are trying to put on their very best.

[HockeyMom]

278. "You are wearing makeup?"

Best compliment. People are not supposed to know you are wearing it. I have always had dark circles under my eyes since I was a kid. Even when I don't wear makeup, I always put concealer under my eyes because I don't like looking like a Zombie.

[Glassunion]

279. The question has no answer. Because no two women wear makeup for the same reasons.

Some wear it to look older, others sexier, others younger, and yet others may use it to cover up something, but in the end if they choose, then they are in the right.

I'm a man, so I rarely wear makeup. When I do, it's because I'm using my wife's concealer (or whatever it's called) to cover a pimple that is about 1/3 the overall size of my head. 40 years old and I still get pimples.

But my wife wears makeup for different reasons than her mother... My ex never wore makeup, and my own mother uses it around her birthmark. Whatever.

I personally think that if all women wore makeup, for the exact same reasons, then we could have this discussion. Until then, it seems moot.

[ileus]

280. Only if they want to.

[Autumn]

281. Only if they want to.

[demigoddess]

283. Gave up make up in 1979, no one has complained since

and when i found out what was in the stuff I never looked back. Also gave up following fashion.

[jmowreader]

285. Up to you

Any person who's past the age of...oh, thirteen sounds good...should feel free to wear and/or use whatever makeup, nail stuff, clothes, hair style, shoes, car, stereo, computer, etc., she or he wishes, and it's no one's business but their own.

[Token Republican]

289. First Post on DU

This thread is as good as any to make an introduction. Been lurking here for about a year, and finally decided to make an account.

But to more important things.

People of both genders have been doing things since forever to enhance their appearance. When I was younger, I preferred women with less make up more as a personal taste, but never really felt wearing makeup made them a traitor. People wear clothes to project an image, wear scented oils, even work on how they stand. Wearing make up seems to fall into that category. Sure, it can be overdone, but so can anything.

As I got older, I became much more accepting of women and make up and I'm at a point where I consider it to be nothing more than enhanced personal grooming.

The fact that my own personal grooming has reached a point where I need to shave my ears has not affected my opinion.

[Curmudgeoness]

290. Too much information.

I did not need to know about your ears, Token Republican. Really.

LOL

Welcome to DU.