General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Venezuelan right wing opposition has got to be the world's most shameless.
As the right-wing oligarchs once again attempt to violently destabilize the democratically elected government of Venezuela, check out the crudity of the propaganda being pumped out in the attempt to sell their revolt as some kind of popular uprising that is being brutally suppressed by dictatorial forces, etc., etc.
The bastards even had the nerve to steal the extremely well-known picture of the Egyptian woman murdered in the street by police in Cairo and present it as a Venezuelan event:
For many more examples of pictures from around the world being appropriated and falsely presented as scenes from Venezuela, see:
http://daily-struggles.tumblr.com/post/76949406427/whats-being-faked-to-be-going-on-in-venezuela-in-a
The real question is, what kind of "opposition" imagines that this kind of crude tactic can work in the digital age when we have such wonders as reverse image searches?
Is the CIA still stuck in the 1950s?
The answer, possibly, is that they don't really care:
It's all about keeping the blood boiling with a core of right-wing anti-socialist Venezuelans and their lobby in one country, the United States, which is known for having a really stupid political culture where people will believe fucking anything, and which is providing the "international" financing and backing for the so-called Venezuelan "opposition."
There are a few such supporters of the next CIA coup attempt in Venezuela who post daily on this site, by the way. Whatever the latest lie of the day, they will be supporting it.
The irony is that this is the Venezuelan counterpart to the Tea Party "birth certificate seekers" who will believe any hysteria and make up any lie about Obama.
anti partisan
(429 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)at $50 barrel but Bush turned the deal down.
Gman
(24,780 posts)They don't care if they're true. In America it's about keeping their base angry so they'll vote.
Archae
(46,326 posts)Maduro is doing just fine on his own, with his decrees.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Zero, clearly. Which is about how much effort you put into your standard remark.
Let's even pretend for a moment it was true, that Maduro is so bad that VN doesn't need anyone else to screw it up? It would still be irrelevant: Are you saying that the "opposition" isn't performing the kind of crude propaganda exposed in the OP?
Also, even if your clever remark were true, would it constitute any kind of evidence against the idea that the U.S. govt is intervening in VZ on behalf of the oligarchs--as it has continuously since 1998?
Wait, sorry, I'm trying to use logic here. My mistake.
I think there's an important Reuters/AP piece defaming the democratically elected government of Venezuela and presenting the oligarchs as revolutionaries that you need to post in LBN, post-haste.
Archae
(46,326 posts)It shows blithering stupidity on their part.
BUT...
Did the VN opposition put it out?
I do realize just how dreamy Saint Maduro seems to you, though.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)It's one step away from pointless Facebook posts. Only highly trusted posters are worth quoting. So it's no surprise when people post false information. If one were to judge a whole group based on that it would be stupid.
For instance we have a DUer doing that here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/110825587
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Wait... no it doesn't.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Therefore I must be against right wing chavismo.
Only faux progressives would defend hundreds of million spent on shell companies set up specifically to profit insider chavistas. No progressive would defend chavistas associated with Derwick Associates: http://alekboyd.blogspot.com/p/derwick-associates.html
No progressive would turn a blind eye to students who protest against high crime rates and instability. But we got them here...
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)No victim of Western Imperialism ever needed to be screwed up, but that never stopped them, did it? The world has had experience, especially Latin American, with Western Imperialism, and sadly, the US involvement when we should have been the protectors of sovereignty rather than the supporters of Dictators, but that is the reality.
I hope Ven and the rest of Latin America succeed in their efforts to end these right wing coup attempts and I believe they will.
What I don't get is how ANYONE who knows the history of the deadly interference of the Iimperialist West could possibly support it happening all over again. THAT is the most surprising thing to me.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Headed by Carville?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)nothing about the history of US - Latin American relations.
"There was no person more feared by the company (CIA) than Che Guevara because he had the capacity and charisma necessary to direct the struggle against the political repression of the traditional hierarchies in power in the countries of Latin America."
Philip Agee, CIA agent, later defected to Cuba
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Capriles got 49.1% of the vote--so Maduro hardly has unanimous support.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I think the situation is much more complicated than will fit into Marxist theory. Is this is a war versus socialism or is it something else?
If half the nation supports the blood heir of Simon Bolivar, the Liberator of that area, who is Leopoldo Lopez, is it not possible that half the people in Venezuela do not want socialism?
Despite the knee jerk urge to see Chile all over again, I think most of the countries in South America are able to resist American pressure now. As Kerry said, the Monroe Doctrine is dead. There are alliances being made by those countries are not with us but with many other nations now.
And like it or not, facism by oligarch is not unpopular with some people. I know people from South and Central America who are definitely on par with Libertarians and the Tea Party in the kind of society they want to have. South America is not all leftist, it's not a plot. That's something we need to face.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)More than two decades after the cold war, during which the US backed anti-communist military rulers and pushed free-market policies in Latin America, conservative governments have virtually disappeared from the region.
The leftward shift has been under way since the start of the millennium, but in recent years, the political axis of the hemisphere has tilted even further, as candidates who promise greater social spending and wealth redistribution win again and again. When the term of Chilean conservative Sebastián Piñera ends in March, right-leaning presidents will be in power only in small Central American nations and Paraguay.
"I think it's difficult for conservative candidates to move forward because inequality is such an entrenched issue," said Ana Quintana, a Latin America expert at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. "And it's hard to implement free-market, institutional reforms when you need to make sure a significant portion of the population can get enough to eat."
---snip
The leftward shift has been under way since the start of the millennium, but in recent years, the political axis of the hemisphere has tilted even further, as candidates who promise greater social spending and wealth redistribution win again and again. When the term of Chilean conservative Sebastián Piñera ends in March, right-leaning presidents will be in power only in small Central American nations and Paraguay.
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)The business forces today don't exert the same direst control of USG as in the past. Expect them to be acting more directly.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)and there are those here who will fully support the violent right wing in VZ
fucking puke
freshwest
(53,661 posts)It's been transferred from:
'We are ultimate goodness and we can and will do anything!'
To the more recent:
'We are ultimate evil and we can and will do anything!'
Regressive oligarchs in other nations don't need our help. They never did, they made their own history, and it's damned bloodier than the current uproar in Venezuela.
We're not the only nation on the planet who wants oil. The Chinese are taking our place in that arena. They just don't send troops.
In fact, we want a lot less than before, despite the fact our economy was built upon fossil fuels, oil, gas and coal.
We can't be relied on as the world's ultimate bogeyman anymore. We're tired of it, can't afford it, and the military method is less effective than ever in securing resources.
Follow the corporate states that now exist in nations with oil and other resources. Some of these have no ties with the USA, not even nominally.
We should look to the history of South America long before the USA began meddling in their affairs. These centuries old oligarches don't need us. And they have a lot more to win or lose in this.
JMHO.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)There is no way the CIA was the catalyst for these protests. Now the CIA is no doubt trying to leverage it some way, but I suspect "do nothing" is the current mode of operation.
It would be bad if the students were caught hanging with CIA agents.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)There is nostalgia for BushCo at times from some, but not me. The world changes, whether people want to accept it or not. Patterns change, some things repeat, others don't A look at the region shows a lot more history, and we are not guilty for all of it. If we were, we'd be a divine force. We aren't.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)You would think that a country like the USA who pays so much lip service to words like "Democracy" and "Freedom" would have more respect for the Real Thing,
but NO.
The Democratic Party Leadership & Republican Party Leadership absolutely AGREE that these Populist Democracies emerging in Latin America MUST BE DEMONIZED,
and the few remaining Right Wing Police States like Colombia (hostile to the open Democracy in Venezuela)
are being supported with OUR Tax Dollars!
The end result of the misguided Foreign Policy will be to chase these emerging democracies and their growing MARKETS straight into the open arms of Russia, China, and Iran.
QED
In Venezuela and other newly elected Populist Democracies, the Governments have kicked out the predatory IMF and Global Banks, and diverted a percentage of Corporate Profits from the extraction of Venezuelan resources to:
*Feed the Hungry
*Heal the Sick
*Educate the Ignorant
*House the Homeless
*Empower the poor and disenfranchised
I can see WHY the 1% and their Mouth Pieces in the US HATE these new democracies.
They set a terrible example for rest of the World.
If other countries found out about this, their life as 1% overlords might have to change.
VIVA Democracy!!!
I pray these reforms migrate North before it is too late.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's likely they will win.
sked14
(579 posts)and start to address the massive corruption and mismanagement of the economy and rampant crime.
polly7
(20,582 posts)False scarcity: A double blow of outrageous overpricing of goods plus artificial food scarcity started just as people were beginning their Christmas shopping. Wealthy merchants proceeded to hoard essential goods: corn flour, sugar, salt, cooking oil, toilet paper, etc. placing them in hidden warehouses or spirited off to Colombia through a well-planned smuggling operation. The military discovered an illegal bridge built for motorcycles that carried the smuggled goods. Thousands of bags of foodstuffs were discovered simply left rotting on Colombian byways: this was not smuggling for economic reasons, but for political reasons. The Colombian government cooperated with the Venezuelan government to stop this smuggling.
Attack on Venezuelas petroleum company PDVSA: the international press has been alleging that PDVSA is failing because it is using its profits for social programs instead of re-investing, and that the country is running out of petroleum. Funnily enough they never warn Canada or Saudi Arabia about oil scarcity. They even state the preposterous notion that Venezuela is importing gasoline from the USA. The fact is that PDVS owns the large oil company CITGO in USA whose refinery often sends back to Venezuela a special liquid used for improving gasoline grade 95. PDVSA is still one of the top 5 oil companies in the world according to the influential Petroleum Intelligence Weekly.[iii]
Campaign to discredit the economy. The international media has been predicting doom and gloom for Venezuela for years! The Venezuelan economy is doing very well. Its oil exports last year amounted to $94 billons while the imports only reached $59.3 billons a historically low record. The national reserves are at $22 billons and the economy has a surplus (not a deficit) of 2.9% of GDP. The country has no significantly onerous national or foreign debts.[iv] These are excellent indicators that many countries in Europe would envy, even the USA and Canada. The multinational bank Wells Fargo has recently declared that Venezuela is one of the emerging economies that is most protected against any possible financial crisis and the Bank of America Merril Lynch has recommended to its investors to buy Venezuelan government bonds. [v]
http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/venezuela-under-attack-again/
Written by a person from Venezuela ....... maybe even your wife's relative?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)keep attempting to collaborate with the U.S. govt in effecting the violent overthrow of the democratic government.
In Venezuela, this strategy has so far failed miserably and strengthened the Chavistas. They know how to defend themselves against imperialism and have made an example for the world.
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)cause everybody KNOWS they tried!
Rarely does Wall Street & Oil Corps FAIL to get what they want,
but they sure screwed the pooch in Venezuela!
I'm also not surprised that Capriles was your guy in this election.
VIVA Democracy!
The People of Venezuela have spoken... twice in less than a year!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Capriles is a right wing hack, and Maduro is an authoritarian oaf
a real pity that Venezuelans don't have a decent choice.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)*It is clear that the People of Venezuela have spoken.
*It is also clear that the American 1%, Wall Street, and the Global Oil Corps have backed the overthrow of the Populist Reforms in Venezuela and other Latin American countries,
and heavily backed the Capriles campaign,
and sponsor most of the propaganda saturating the media and politics in the USA.
*It is also clear that many of the problems plaguing Venezuela that they are trying to blame on Chavez/Maduro existed LONG before they were elected.
*Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelans.
They have chosen their government in open, transparent, verifiable elections.
We can only wish our elections were as open, transparent, and verifiable as the elections in Venezuela.
*If Venezuela decides to limit the influence of "outside" money and interference from the Global 1% inside their country, more power to them.
*The Venezuelans don't care WHAT you think.
*It is none of our business.
VIVA Democracy!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)(if he's not there already) from being disapproved of by the majority of people there.
hardly a license to go out and throw the opposition in jail
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Oh yeah, and all but eliminate the independent press.
I don't understand why so many support the Chavistas.
Perhaps they started with the right idea, but they've become something quite ugly.
reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The Venezuelan economy is only wrong by the Wall Street standard, because policy has helped the poor and not the rich. Tough shit.
The VZ independent press is as big as ever. Stop pushing the CIA's talking points. Thanks.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Our own DUers post crap too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/110825587
The protests started because a woman was raped and students protesting for better security were arrested en mass.
Students then started protesting for the release of those students who were originally arrested (arrested for no good reason).
How does the CIA invent this?
TheMathieu
(456 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)As bvar22 says above, our government despises populist democracy, because they're worried it will catch on here.
TheMathieu
(456 posts)90 students shot by real bullets - More than 400 hurt by rubber bullets - 141 detained
http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/ha-mais-de-90-manifestantes-feridos-bala-diz-estudante-gaby-arellano-11627791#ixzz2tbpCR4t3
Archae
(46,326 posts)They are opposing the Dear Leader Saint Maduro.
So that legitimizes beating and shooting them.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)It's their business to figure out how they will live. Maduro is working with the Chinese. Both Venezuela and China have the right to do business with each other. It's a civil war and none of our business.
JMHO.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)It reminds me of the DSK defenders or Assange defenders or Woody Allen defenders.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Wednesday's fatalities included two students and a community activist from a militantly pro-government neighborhood in the poor west end of Caracas.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/13/us-venezuela-protests-idUSBREA1B1K220140213
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)That article is old and the 'activist' is unnamed.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)You have told the opposite of the truth here, on the face of it. You picked the wrong example to bolster your case.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)So you're mistaken.
Guardia Nacional de Venezuela1 , las (antiguas) Fuerzas Armadas de Cooperación (FFAAC), ahora denominada Guardia Nacional Bolivariana (GNB), es uno de los cuatro componentes que conforman la Fuerza Armada Nacional Bolivariana de Venezuela.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Nacional_de_Venezuela
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)The facts are one thing, the inference is another. Accused of behaving such as in a photo is not the same as being accused of being in the photo. In this OP those are confused.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)You superimpose the text "this is how the GNB treats our women" over a photo showing a woman being mistreated and it is a pretty natural conclusion that the photo is the "this" that is being referred to.
You're too clever by half in your bending over backwards to defend this tripe.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Doesn't that tell you something? It is NOT the GNB.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Yes, it is a picture from Egypt. You know that. I know that. Because it is being discussed right here.
Why is it being discussed right here? Because the text accompanying it implies--deceitfully and propagandistically--that it is Venezuelan police. It is a tendentious attempt to incite hatred of the Venezuelan police based on a lie. (People may have reason to hate the Venezuelan police, but that Twitter message is a lying attempt to inflame, no more, no less.)
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)I take it to mean what it says rather than infer my own view upon it.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Category: stupidest argument.
certainot
(9,090 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)I'll bet you right now that this is a lie from Globo through you . .
"90 students shot by real bullets"
$ 50 to your (or my) favorite charity.
What do you say?
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)n/t
freshwest
(53,661 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Part of the same beast. The compradore bourgeoisie to U.S.G. imperialism, more at home in Miami and Washington than in the country they want to run as absentee owners.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Even one called Maduro "Dear Leader"...a favorite right wing pejorative for Obama.
So no surprise they would use false photos to stir things up...and no doubt that even on a progressive board some fall for it...they would not bother with propaganda if it did not work.
sked14
(579 posts)are fomenting the unrest in VN? Or is it just because the corrupt Maduro govt says so?
Or maybe it's because the corrupt Maduro regime has flushed the economy down the toilet, the electrical grid is failing due to wholesale corruption and theft of funds to modernize, the highest violent crime rate in Latin American, the chronic shortages of basic goods, the oil industry producing less and less oil because, once again, the wholesale corruption of the Maduro regime.
Think maybe that might have something to do with the unrest and not US/CIA/RW boogyman?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Chavez, with half the population living in absolute poverty. and no corruption at all, for sure.
And it's not like the US has ever been involved in fomenting disorder in VZ:
The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time.
Washington's involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela
sked14
(579 posts)dissent in VN and I'll change my tune, however, my wife has lots of relatives still living in VN and they pretty much all say the same thing, they don't believe the Maduro claim that VN problems are all a US/CIA plot to destablize the country.
Do you deny that there is widespread corruption within the govt?
Do you deny that there are chronic shortages of basic goods?
Do you deny that the electrical grid is failing due to theft of funds set aside for modernization?
Do you deny that VN has the highest violent crime rate in Latin America?
Do you deny VN has runaway inflation due to the monetary policies coming out of Caracas?
Do you deny that the VN economy is being flushed down the toilet because of the corruption of the Maduro regime?
VN is a powder keg just waiting for the spark to ignite it and it ain't gonna be pretty.
VN doesn't need the US/CIA to fuck up the country, Maduro and Co. are doing a bang up job all by themselves.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)That your relative has an opinion means zip to me.
Do you deny there was widespread corruption before Chavez?
Do you deny that inflation before Chavez was as high as 100%?
Do you deny that crime was a problem before Chavez?
Do you deny that pre-Chavez, "the economy" you think was so great was one that left half the population in absolute poverty?
Do you deny that the US funded and aided the coup attempt on Chavez?
Because of the allegations, an investigation conducted by the US Inspector General, at the request of US Senator Christopher Dodd, requested a review of American activities leading up to and during the coup attempt. The OIG report found no "wrongdoing" by US officials either in the State Department or in the Embassy, but it also concluded that "It is clear that NED [the National Endowment for Democracy], Department of Defense (DOD), and other US assistance programs provided training, institution building, and other support to individuals and organizations understood to be actively involved in the brief ouster of the Chávez government."[108]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt#Allegations_of_US_involvement
Jimmy Carter, a former US president, has said that Washington knew about an abortive coup against Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, in 2002, and that it may even have taken part.
"I think there is no doubt that in 2002, the United States had at the very least full knowledge about the coup, and could even have been directly involved," Carter said in an interview with Colombian El Tiempo newspaper published on Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2009/09/200992116049879437.html
US agencies are the principal donors to political groups in Venezuela, with annual funds of about $6 million USD. The FRIDE report confirms that this multi-million dollar aid is a result of US efforts to undermine the Chavez presidency. Until very recently, the United States did not have a prominent role in democracy assistance to Venezuela. When US engagement began under the Chavez government, its political profile consisted of supporting democratic NGOs and opposition parties.
US funds are channeled to opposition groups in Venezuela through the following organizations: Development Alternatives, Inc DAI (since 2002), the Pan-American Development Foundation PADF (since 2005), the International Republican Institute IRI (since 2002), the National Democratic Institute NDI (since 2002), Freedom House (since 2004), USAID (since 2002), NED and the Open Society Institute (since 2006).
Declassified documents obtained under Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests regarding the activities of these agencies in Venezuela have revealed that their multi-million dollar funding has largely gone towards promoting anti-democratic activities, such as the April 2002 coup détat against the Chavez government, and subsequent strikes, destabilization attempts and economic sabotage. The foreign funding has also gone to support the opposition electoral campaigns over the past eight years, including in-kind aid to train and strengthen political parties, help design elections and communications strategies and even to develop political platforms and agendas for opposition groups. This level of support goes well beyond mere donations and evidences a direct meddling in Venezuelas domestic affairs.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5441
Image: US State Department document (archived) illustrating the role NED-funded NGOs play in supporting US-backed opposition figures in Venezuela. The US regularly fails to transparently list who is included in extensive funding NED provides opposition groups in Venezeula, so documents like this give a rare glimpse into the names and dynamics actually involved. As was suspected, NED money is going into networks providing support for current presidential candidate, Henrique Capriles Radonski. In this particular document, NED-funded Sumate's legal trouble is described in relation to its attempted defense of Radonski. At the time this document was written, Radonski was in jail pending trial for his role in facilitating the 2002 US-backed failed coup against President Hugo Chavez. The document may still be online at the US State Department's official website here.
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/10/venezuela-opposition-founded-by-wall.html
Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)rafeh1
(385 posts)Kerry has gone into kissinger mode. He ran the egypt coup. Now he is doing the turkey and Venezuela slow motion coups.
sked14
(579 posts)Other than Maduro saying so.
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)did not take my bet. What does that tell us?
Answer - the anti-govt. Venezuelan righties have
ABSOLUTELY no regard for the truth.
Probably wouldn't know it if it bit them in the butt.
Just like El Globo, George W., and the CIA;
you can't believe ANYTHING they say.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,527 posts)If they had only the truth to support them, we wouldn't even know they exist, even though our taxes support these a-holes.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)never sleeps!
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)erate that played a big role in the anti-Chavez coup attempt was founded by Americans related to the Phelps-Dodge family and is presently run by a Venezuelan who married into that family.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024530984
They're the group whose license Chavez took away; there was a big stink about it when it happened. No one mentioned at the time it was a Phelps family enterprise.