Marines who can't do pullups are 'broke or lazy'

[BrentWil]

Pretty interesting letter to the editor. This was written by Maj. Jess Mullen, a 37-year-old mother of four.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140218/NEWS/302180026/One-officer-s-opinion-Marines-who-can-t-do-pullups-broke-lazy-

First, to female Marines: You must understand that pullups will become the single standard measure of physical fitness (Marine administrative message 035/14). The flexed-arm hang is an antiquated test that is no longer applicable. Get it out of your head that it is an acceptable measure of fitness.

United States Marines, of any MOS or gender, should be required — and able — to pull their body weight up and into a window, over a wall or into a helicopter.

If you have not reached a minimum of three pullups by June 2014, you must fall into one of two categories: broke or lazy. Those of you who are broken: get healthy. Those of you who are lazy: get up and get training.

[1000words]

1. If you can't pull your own weight, you are a liability.

The rhetoric may be in your face, but that's the military.

[alphafemale]

2. It's the Marines. Brute physical strength is important

The letter writer was crass and awful. But some things in life should not have lower physical standards.

Same as a fireman. A fireman should absolutely HAVE to be able to physically carry a 180 lb adult over their shoulders on a ladder.

If not?

People will die.

[Lost_Count]

4. It's not even "brute strength" to be able to pull yourself up...

It's a bare minimum.

[valerief]

3. Marines who can't do vaginal childbirth are broke or lazy. Gotta be able to

handle pain. And make more Marines.

[Logical]

6. so no physical test in your book? n-t

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Idiotic thing to say

since those Marines about to do a vaginal birth will not be in the front lines.

I will say this, I have no issue with these standards. What I have an issue with is the inability to train Marines to do it, apparently, at bootcamp. And yes, at one time I used to carry my weight, and a medical bag, up a line with prusik knotts. I also was capable of carrying somebody over my shoulder, and to carry a fire donut 100 yards running at a good clip, and a ladder and the rest of the crap that came with the job.

And because of the war on drugs, I had to be able to pull somebody out of the line of fire as well. And yes, avoid getting myself hurt or killed in the process. I managed to do both of these a few times. Still got nightmares over it.

A few of my people were not able to pass PRT's, regardless of gender, they were given time to train up, and offered tips on such, and retest. Still unable to, well... and this is the reality that the Marines will live by.

These days I could not do that crap. But I get why they need to. You want to be a combat marine, hooaaahhh, good for you! Regardless of gender well, there are some things you will need to do. I admit, women will have a harder time keeping up to it, but that is life, and biology.

[BrentWil]

9. THe writer did it 4 times

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Because vaginal birth is critical to success in combat.

Whereas basic physical strength is largely irrelevant.

Oh, wait...

[Fantastic Anarchist]

42. According to unofficial US policy ...

... to make more cannon fodder for illegal wars, it's not so far-fetched.

[1000words]

16. Yah ... that comes off as rational.

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. "...up and into a window, over a wall or into a helicopter."

Weren't there dozens of posters calling the pull-up test antiquated, sexist, useless, and a host of other things?

Looking at it from this perspective gives the test a slightly more important place in the realm of physical requirements EVERYONE in the military must meet, whether they're positioned in a forward area or not.

[alarimer]

7. Rah-rah! Gotta do pull ups to go be cannon fodder.

Fuck this person.

[linuxman]

10. If we wanted "cannon fodder"

we would let obese, blind, deaf, and immobile people into the military. We don't, as they are unable to meet a standard demanded by the job. The Marine are made of of folks who are fit, tough, and skilled enough to ensure that the "Cannon Fodder" comes from the other side. The problem is that there are less women who will meet the new standard and that just riles the shit out of people. Biology is like an anathema to folks around here. A little focus and determination can overcome nature's obstacles.

What is it about minimum necessary standards that pisses off people like you so much?

Do you have even the slightest clue why upper body strength is important in a combat job? I'm guessing you don't.

[arely staircase]

40. a fewer percentage of women can do it

But the ones who can should be allowed to do anything a man is allowed to do. And I am not saying you disagree.

[Downwinder]

11. Wonder if a kip mount would be accepted?

[linuxman]

15. I sincerely doubt it.

You kick, it doesn't count. At least that's how it was.

"1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, ....."

Pretty demoralizing when you hear that from behind you from the Ssgt. with the clipboard.

[Recursion]

22. Kipping was disallowed IIRC in '96 or '97

Right before I enlisted, at any rate. But the "perfect" score was lowered from 30 to 20 at the same time, and Marines were allowed to change their grip orientation as long as their feet did not touch the ground (so, do as many overhand pullups as you can, then switch to underhand).

[linuxman]

12. Huh, didn't know that this was Mrine Corps wide.

I thought it was only for the women who wanted to be in the infantry. I could foresee this creating some problems if something isn't done to get the women in the Corps up to the new strength standards. Promotions are based of of several factors, to include fitness.

I'm pretty surprised they are going ahead with it. Oh well, out with the old and in with the new.

[Recursion]

13. Here's the MARADMIN

http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/MessagesDisplay/tabid/13286/Article/157498/change-to-the-physical-fitness-test-timeline-modification.aspx

It looks like Amos is still leaving some hedging room about what will end up happening in June.

1. THIS MARADMIN MODIFIES THE TIMELINE IMPLEMENTING THE CHANGE TO THE FEMALE PHYSICAL FITNESS TEST (PFT) ANNOUNCED IN THE REFERENCE. PHASE ONE OF THE CHANGE IS HEREBY EXTENDED THROUGH 30 JUNE 2014.
2. DURING THE PAST YEAR, TRAINING AND EDUCATION COMMAND STUDIED PFT PULL UP PERFORMANCE TRAINING WITH A FOCUS ON IMPROVING PHYSICAL FITNESS AND FEMALE PFT STANDARDS. THE DATA COLLECTION VALIDATED MANY ASSUMPTIONS AND EXPANDED THE DATA SET ON THE USE OF THE PULL UP AS A UNIVERSAL METRIC FOR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. DATA COLLECTION WILL CONTINUE AS WE FURTHER ASSESS CHANGES TO THE PFT AND DEVELOP A STANDARD THAT ENSURES THE PHYSICAL READINESS OF ALL MARINES.
3. A SUBSEQUENT MARADMIN WILL ADDRESS SPECIFICS TO IMPLEMENT PHASE TWO OF THE REFERENCE. MEANWHILE, ALL MARINES ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONTINUE UPPER BODY STRENGTH TRAINING UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT PULL-UPS WILL BECOME THE SINGLE STANDARD MEASURE OF PHYSICAL FITNESS.
4. THIS MARADMIN IS APPLICABLE TO THE TOTAL FORCE MARINE CORPS.
5. SEMPER FIDELIS, JAMES F. AMOS, GENERAL, U.S. MARINE CORPS, COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS.

Why, in 2013, the US military still hasn't realized that lower case letters exist is beyond me...

[linuxman]

17. LOL, yeah.

It's like someone glued down all the shift keys back in the day and we kept the keyboards.

[Marr]

23. They capitalize all of it because it's ALL important.

[PoliticAverse]

34. The military is probably still using Teletypes with only upper case... n/t

[pokerfan]

44. Because they scream everything!

[loose wheel]

18. Of course...

It's the armed forces. Even if you have "an office job" you may be required to perform that job in an office that is in a hostile place with no defined front lines. Every one has to be able to be proficient in their job, that requires knowing how to use a rifle and being physically fit at a minimum.

They are exactly correct, either meet the minimum, or expect to go find another job.

[pokerfan]

45. or join the army

[flvegan]

19. What an idiot.

A pull-up on a static pull-up bar outside of combat has no bearing whatsoever on the ability to "pull their body weight up and into a window, over a wall or into a helicopter" unless, naturally, said window, wall or helicopter is a static pull-up bar of the kind used in training.

Someone send this one to training school and start with isolation v compound exercise please.

And last I checked, no such thing as a broke nor lazy US Marine.

[Recursion]

20. Oh, I don't know, I was pretty broke when I was an E-2...

Oh, wait, that kind of "broke"...

[Marr]

24. A pullup is a compound exercise.

And I'd say it's about as good an indicator as you're likely to find of an individual's capacity for performing those tasks. All back, arms, and core.

[1000words]

26. Agree

[flvegan]

27. Not when one trains to do just pull ups it isn't.

[BrentWil]

29. Who is training to only do pull ups?

[BrentWil]

25. It is a very reasonable argument

A pullup is a very good text of the upper body strength needed.

[tkmorris]

32. You haven't spent time around many Marines is my guess

To be sure, there aren't a lot but just like in other services there are always a few who are barely hanging on physically. They might make it through boot camp but for whatever reason they end up in circumstances where keeping up the PT isn't a high priority. Many (most even) do anyway, but there are always some who slack off and struggle to maintain standard.

The "idiot" you are referring to is a Major in the USMC. I think that maybe, just maybe, she has a bit more of a clue than you do.

[Omnith]

37. No bearing?

Really? Last I checked, it does require arm strength to do those activities.

[Jenoch]

21. When I was an 18 year old freshman in college

I weighed 190# and could do 20 pullups and bench press 270#. Now, not so much.

[1000words]

28. 270# is respectable at 190#

I know ... not making you feel any better. But at one point, you done good!

[Jenoch]

31. I was a 190# college wrestler.

Now, I'm much older, heavier, but wiser.

What is sort of ironic is that my two older brothers and I were considered to be 'big boys' in our youth, all around 200#. i have two nephews who played college football at 300#+, one offensive tackle, the other a defensive noseguard. (A third nephew had to quit football because of bad knees, 6'3" 285). My brothers and I were college wrestlers. We all made it to nationals, my brothers were small HWTs at around 220#. (We did not place.) They grow them a lot bigger these days.

(Thank goodness my girls do not resemble their football playing cousins.)

[1000words]

33. I played college baseball (catcher) at 190#

Max bench was 235#. There was no way I was even sniffing 270#.

Now, my squats ...

[Jenoch]

35. I think a lot of it is genetics.

My father is 6'1" and about 220#, but he has really skinny legs. His boys don't have huge thighs either. My brothers' married women with wide hips (I wouldn't say cankles out loud) their boys have the legs and thighs to play the line. I played high school football on the line at 210#. Nowadays the high school football line at the Twin Cities suburban schools are all bigger than all of the Vikings Superbowl offensive line with the exception of Ron Yary. I think football will have to do something with the rules because these guys are just getting too big and too fast. The human body can only take so much.

[YOHABLO]

30. Who needs pull ups when you have drones?

[Omnith]

36. I love your thread

Thanks for posting it. I was in the USMC for eight years, and I must say the reason I joined the Marines over other branches is their physical fitness requirements. I like the fact that being a Marine meant you were physically fit to a degree. I hope that never changes.

[Orsino]

38. If it's such a perfect measurement of combat readiness...

...why isn't it performed with a combat load? The Corps isn't stupid, and should acknowledge that the allegedly vital battlefield task of pulling oneself up into a chopper isn't likely to wait for a Marine to strip down to a fitness uniform.

"Body weight?" That's a sick joke,

[pokerfan]

48. I thought the argument was about reducing standards

You're suggesting increasing them?

[Orsino]

50. Not because I *want* to see Marines kicked out.

Mainly, I'm suggesting that these on-high policies are hypocritically invoking half-assed, imaginary battlefield requirements.

But if we're--rightly-- concerned about minimum combat standards, we should be training at least as hard as we fight. An obstacle course, it seems to me, could incorporate pull-ups and any other climbing deemed a minimum acceptable performance, and enough running to see how a troop will perform when rounds are headed downrange.

Perhaps a few pull-ups and a long run executed without one's full battle rattle on are considered a decent substitute. But for what battlefield tasks, exactly?

[Bonx]

39. My 42yr old Wife can do 10 pullups

Me, none
But I'm working on it !!!!!!

[arely staircase]

41. I am a 45 year old male, 20 pounds overweight and I managed 8 on a dare last week nt

[GoCubsGo]

43. Ignorant jackass.

I am neither "broke" nor lazy. I could never do a pull up. I also could never put enough muscle on my upper body to be able to do a pull up, no matter how hard I weight-trained. Just because I am not genetically inclined to have sufficient upper body strength for that kind of thing doesn't make me "broke"--or broken in any way, shape or form.

[hughee99]

46. Are you a marine?

I think this letter is specifically targeted toward marines, and if I understand correctly, "broke" is a term used in the marine corps (and probably other organizations that have fitness requirements) to describe someone who used to keep up with their required physical training and now no longer does.

[GoCubsGo]

47. No.

I just don't think that this is an "either-or" thing. I understand her point point about the need to keep up with standards, and I agree with it. I just don't believe that those that can't meet the new standards are somehow "lazy" or haven't kept up with training. That attitude just rubs me the wrong way.

[Aerows]

49. If I was a person that could potentially see combat

you bet your ass I would meet those physical requirements because I would like to survive.

It's rather silly for people that volunteer to engage in combat decide they don't have to meet the requirements for it.

[packman]

51. Couldn't agree more

If I had a job where people are determined to kill me, I would want to be in the best physical shape possible.
BUT, I'm a lazy-ass civilian and have trouble pulling myself out of a chair.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. When I was a marine, I was always broke and as lazy as I could get away with.

Eat the apple and fuck the.....