I don't understand the gender wars but divide and rule usually works

[malaise]

That is all

[hobbit709]

1. Seems to working quite well.

I've learned over the years that some things a better quietly dropped into oblivion than to repeatedly bring them back up.

[okaawhatever]

64. Unless it's the opposite team you're doing it to. I don't think for one second the people bringing

up these divisive subjects are Democrats or democratic party supporters.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. seems pretty simple, stop doing stuff that creeps women out.

Really, is that difficult to understand?

In this particular case, was there some overwhelming need, some lack of access anywhere else on the internet to the stupid SI swimsuit issue pictures that necessitated posting them on a progressive political discussion board? What exactly was the motivation for doing that?

[justiceischeap]

8. It was obviously flame bait

I suspect with the new rules in place, someone was maybe hoping to get members banned.

[zeemike]

19. Yep that is how it works.

First create a forbidden word or thought.
Then make it into an outrage
Then alert on anyone who says or thinks it...and label them with the appropriate label and ask that they be banned from posting.

If I was a troll that wanted to destroy DU I would be doing just that...to create warfare among DUers, mistrust and hate...works every time. And I have seen this on the increase now for some time, and seen the disappearance of many DUers who had previously contributed so much to this place...
It is a sad thing.,,and we live in a sad times.

[Old and In the Way]

60. Exactly right.

That's how I'd do the board in to...make your personna a radical feminist, then accuse everyone who doesn't kowtow to your "worldview" the enemy of DU. Seriously, if there really were a History of MRA group on DU...how long with those posters last, attacking everyone who disagreed with their outrageous accusations...not very long, I think.

[cyberswede]

61. HoF is not the equivalent of HoMRA.

[Vinnie From Indy]

11. I am a curious about your statement.

You offer that folks should simply stop doing "stuff" that creeps women out. That statement brings forth many questions.

Who decides what creeps women out?
Is it one woman or two women or is there a threshold number?
Is it the women from HOF that decide what is creepy and what is not?
Is it you?

[pipi_k]

30. That's what I always wonder

myself.

Who is the arbiter in something like this. Or almost any issue, really. But specifically in this one.

Some women get creeped out if a guy does a "double take". Some get creeped out if a guy actually has the nerve to make a polite comment...I had someone tell me I should have been highly offended when some random guy at a social function came up to me and said, "I just wanted to tell you that I think you're lovely". I thanked him, and he walked away to join his friends, and I never saw him again.

OMG!!!!! A random guy thought I was lovely!!! Filthy stalker!!! Aughhhhh!!!!!



Anyway, the statement that guys should stop doing stuff that creeps women out should be changed to guys should stop doing stuff that creeps some women out.

Which is simple enough as long as men have the ability to read womens' minds so they can know who welcomes what and who doesn't.

Since they don't, and since there will always be women like me who are not easily creeped out, I suppose we'll be blamed for "enabling" the behaviors that other women find creepy but we do not.

[Feral Child]

38. I like your post n/t

[notadmblnd]

62. I agree with you there.

I love men. I love when they compliment me. I've had complements from men in regards to both my brain and my physical attributes. I've also had women complement me and It makes me feel much the same as when men do it. But there's a line that gets drawn. I'm pretty tolerant, so the line for me is speaking crudely and/or inappropriate touching. And believe it or not, both members of the male and female gender have on occasion crossed that line.

So what do ya do? Let anger and bitterness against entire genders grow? Label them all as dispicable, sub human beings because they've been taught bad behavior towards women and in many ways- don't know any better- then hate them all for it? These people are taught this behavior, they're not born this way. And the behavior is taught long before they're let out into this world amongst their peers. There's no club where they have secret meetings and discuss how to oppress women. Hell they don't need to, we do enough of that to ourselves and each other!

As a woman and a mother of a grown son, I would have to say that it would be my fault if my son grew into a man that behaved badly toward women. I say it would be my fault because I am his very first influence in his life. He would have seen what sort of behavior I tolerated from others and he would have sensed my attitudes in regards to it and more than likely adopted those same attitudes. Children learn in so many ways. They really are like little sponges. They take in everything they see and hear. And as a mother, If I hadn't spoken up when something was out of line.... Well, who have I got to blame?

[pnwmom]

40. "Creeps women out" may not be the best choice of words. "Undermines and excludes" might be better.

But Warren gets it.

DU is not an entertainment site, nor a mens sport site. T & A photos don't belong on what is supposed to be a progressive political site where women and men are treated as equals.

[oldhippie]

12. Some women will be creeped out ....

... by anything a man does. So that supposedly simple standard isn't going to work.

[The Straight Story]

13. But only some women are creeped out. So should we white knight them and treat

them different?

Should we only post something that offends no other person on DU? If so, probably time to close up shop, get out own subreddit, and post only to ourselves.

I guess benevolent sexism is alive and well and being asked for by the very folks who were complaining about it's existence.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Do you have the same attitude about racist crap and homophobic crap?

Or just sexist crap?

[The Straight Story]

28. Do you remember the big superbowl ad dustup here on DU years ago

About the Snicker's Commercial?

I got told I was a child molesting homophobic person because I, and many others, thought the ad was funny.

I don't see sexism under every rock, or homophobia, or racism - because I don't what does that make me?

Recently I have been doing work with a guy who owns a radio station (and is also an old friend from HS). We brought that very ad up on the air. He is gay and we were discussing both gay marriage and the portrayal of gays on TV (From Jack Harkness to Queer eye for the straight guy) and I brought up the ad to him (as I had many other friends). He felt the same way - it was funny and he didn't see it as homophobic.

So what we have here on DU are some people see something as X, and if you don't you get labeled and shamed. Then people work to convince others you are a sexist/homophobic/racist (remember the self described 'gay police' on DU?).

My 'attitude' is not everything is what others say they are, and because I don't agree I am told there is something wrong with me and I that I should treat others and their views as gospels and my views are crap and make me a bad person.

I say bollocks.

[pipi_k]

35. Under rocks and around every corner...

I don't see sexism under every rock, or homophobia, or racism - because I don't what does that make me?

I don't either.

Does that make the two of us clueless?

Or does it mean we're not projecting?


There's a similar phenomenon that's happened many times with Republican politicians, or religious figures, who see porn and homosexuality everywhere, and act like they want to stamp it out. At some point, these people are exposed themselves for being or doing the very things they claimed to despise.

And then there are the spouses or significant others who constantly accuse their partners of cheating on them, even in the near-total absence of any evidence they are cheating. Been through that myself. What's usually going on is that the accusers are the ones doing the cheating. They point fingers at the other person either out of guilt, or as a way to justify their own cheating.


so those are examples of why I'm always suspicious when people are running around seeing any of the "isms" under every rock.

Does what they "see" really exist?

[pnwmom]

42. It isn't benevolent sexism to point out that T & A photos don't belong

on a progressive political site. This isn't a men's sports site or an entertainment site.

DU is supposed to be a progressive political site where men and women can discuss issues as equals.

Posting T & A photos -- and pretending, as you do, not to understand the issue -- is a way of covertly but firmly reminding them of their place -- as objects to be enjoyed by DU men.

[The Straight Story]

50. If it was just that one thread, sure

But it spans everything.

I post something about a crime and the perp was a woman? Sexist and I am trying to make women look bad.

Anything about femen someone posts? Sexist.

Silvio Berlusconi With A Trunk Full Of Tied-Up Women: Worst Ford Ad Ever? - posted that and first reply was about how men would find it cutesy.

It goes on and on nearly every day on DU, not matter what a person posts or why - they are told why they did, why they are sexist, etc.

[Katashi_itto]

15. So whats the motivation for this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8711061

Even a gay joke in the above thread.

[pnwmom]

44. It's in the lounge, not G.D. That's where the SI cover should have been posted. n/t

[snooper2]

26. Sometimes people just like to post random shit...

It shouldn't be hugh LOL...


Just think of it like when you end up in that weird part of YouTube LOL

[Warren Stupidity]

37. And sometimes people deliberately post sexist crap hoping to make DU suck.

[Katashi_itto]

47. Note who posted it

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. +1

[KharmaTrain]

3. What A Mess...

...I make a rare visit here to see if there's any news/links to what's going on in the Ukraine and it's like I walked into high school clique fight. Sheesh. I remember the days when DU was a great place to share news and views. Back to the shadows I go...sad to see what this place has become.

[Katashi_itto]

49. It has become pathetic.

Like a sandbox, with a bunch of screaming kids all soiling their diapers and hurling feces at each other.

[KharmaTrain]

54. People Talking Past One Another...

...used to be (where's my spittoon??) there was spirit debate here and a lot of it would open eyes. Now it's all about people "not getting it" and looking for reasons to divide rather than work together and learn. My membership here is about to expire and doubt I'm gonna continue to subsidize this. Thanks for the reply!

[malaise]

65. How lovely to see you

Please post more often - I miss you big time

[KharmaTrain]

68. Awwww...

...that's awfully nice of you to say. I pop in and out and always make sure to read your threads. Sadly I no longer feel that I fit in here (not that I did that much to begin with)...thus cleaning out the locker and moving on. I didn't want to go before one more to those who were so kind to make my time here enjoyable...

[malaise]

69. It's heartbreaking to see so many nice DUers leave

Please reconsider.

[The Magistrate]

4. Hear Hear, Ma'am

[malaise]

66. How are you Sir

[In_The_Wind]

5. Indeed!

[livetohike]

6. Agreed. We don't need the GOP to spout outdated, regressive views when we have them right here.

I am nearing my 10 year anniversary since joining DU. I don't think it is my imagination......but I can remember when issues were discussed, news items were linked to with thoughtful discussions and not personal attacks.

[madrchsod]

7. well....here`s my answer

to bad some folks do`t get it....

[malaise]

10. I have always loved that song

[marions ghost]

9. I don't DISagree with posting the topic

---cultural stuff (pop culture) has a place at DU. It did spark a legitimate debate on a topic which will always be divisive here it looks like.

The guy who said, "I think it's fine but I don't want my daughters to look like that" --this encapsulates the whole problem with the swimsuit issue. We all know this is just a crass stunt--using butts cheek by cheek to sell a sports magazine. And at least they could use nude athletes, LOL. But vulnerable young girls get the idea that this is what men (not their fathers) want them to look like, in a literal sense.

There are plenty of places to portray women as distorted looking sex objects. Balloon butts in thongs. Human fetish objects. Toys, playthings. SI isn't on the side of women. Did we ever think they were?

So I say meh--write SI off...don't buy it. That's the best objection.

But don't censor the topic.

[jwirr]

14. That is exactly why I do not read any of their posts. I am not going to add more wood to the fire.

Yours is an exception because it says it all in one sentence.

[deutsey]

18. +1

[Enthusiast]

16. It's one method. One of the many on display nationwide and on DU.

Single issues like abortion, women's rights, 2nd amendment rights, environmental concerns, trade policy, religion, animal rights, sexism, LGBT issues and many others are being used to manipulate and create division.

The manipulators intend to use these divisions to destroy the hopes of the Democrats in 2014. They are off to a marvelous start.

[geek tragedy]

20. Those issues are not distractions. They deserve to be debated on their merits.

And quite honestly, people opposed to GLBT and women's rights/equality have no fucking business being at DU.

[pnwmom]

48. How can you call women's rights, that apply to more than 50% of the population, a "single issue"?

[Enthusiast]

57. When something is "single issue" voters give that particular issue

more significance than any other issue. It isn't necessarily a single issue but it can become one if given more significance than any other issue. Someone can vote strictly based on the candidate's stand on women's rights to the exclusion of everything else. This is not to suggest I am not liberal on women's issues, because I am, 100%.

[geek tragedy]

17. Because misogynist garbage is openly tolerated and deemed within community standards

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4531662

Feminists have this theory, and they have had it for a while, that I am a potential rapist due to the fact I was born with a penis. Why not just drop the potential and go ahead and call me a rapist? After all, that is what they want to do. All I can do is just shake my head, because no, I am not a rapist. I am not a potential rapist. The fact that they even think I am and give rather loud voice to that thought should have been enough, but then I was a fool.

I used to be the very definition of a "White Knight". I used to defend all women and all women and their behavior. I had a string of girlfriends that cheated on me. I blamed myself. I thought I wasn't being attentive enough to their needs. Then I managed to hang on long enough to get married to one. Oh, the end all, be all, of being a proper adult male, eh? She cheated on me, maxed all my credit cars, lied to a judge and got a restraining order against me, had me thrown out of my own house, and then asked for alimony, funny thing is she had a better paying job than me by then. I didn't learn my lesson. A couple more girlfriends, and I got cheated on a couple of more times. The last one got a hold of my credit cards and maxed them out. She served a year in jail over that, I finally learned.

There is "defending women" and there is defending women. Now, I support equality, true equality, but be careful what you wish for.

Why should I defend, or tolerate, childish or bratty behavior out of a woman? Why should I defend, or tolerate, any behavior out of a woman that I would never tolerate out of a man? Why should I believe it was rape when she went to his apartment, left happy, and got upset when he didn't call a couple of days later? Why would I pretend to like a woman who displays no feminine qualities? Why would I pretend that I am even remotely attracted to an obese woman? Why should a woman with no major responsibilities working in a comfortable office make the same as a guy, or rarely a woman, engaged in hard, dirty, and dangerous work?

You can try to answer any question in the above paragraph, or all of them as you choose. Ever since I decided to approach the world like it is and not as I wish it was, no feminist or white knight has ever come close to giving a good answer. Remember, I used to be a fellow traveler with feminists, I know all the answers.

I will still get the door for a woman. I will still offer to help a woman that is carrying a heavy load. I will not defend a woman with a mouth like a sailor, or who sleeps around, or a woman who works in an office and consumes 3500 calories a day, those are behavioral issues, and I am not a psychologist. I am not saying she can't do whatever she wants, I am saying I will not leap to the defense of those behaviors or tolerate them out of a woman in a relationship with me.

If a woman expects to me to pay for a roof over her head or a new car, she is sadly mistaken. If she thinks we still have a relationship and we haven't had sex in more than three days, without good reason, she's gone. If she interferes with my work, at all, she's gone. Those are ironclad boundaries, if she does not respect them, she does not respect me. I have had a few try them, they all found out I was serious.

Honestly, I may sound like an ass nowadays, but the quality and quantity of women I attract are so much better than what I had in the past. I miss the notion of marriage. It is closed off to me. Modern society has rendered marriage toxic for men.

While we have posters like this raging woman-hater, and the jurors who decided that yes this is the kind of post they'd like to see at DU, there will continue to be gender wars.

You want to end 'the gender wars?" Start taking misogyny seriously, and stop treating objections to misogyny here as a distraction. Because, if we tolerate it here, that means we tolerate it everywhere.

[DLevine]

21. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

23. count me in.

[geek tragedy]

24. already did--you've been a mensch on this nt

[City Lights]

25. What a disgusting post!

I am appalled, but not surprised, that the jury let that stand.

This place ain't what it used to be.

[marions ghost]

52. This one is way out of line

I alerted again anyway. They do receive them even though it's been voted on.

[hlthe2b]

29. I used to volunteer with a domestic violence hotline organization..

It is frightening how reminiscent that language is in that rant. Given the overt rage and strong need to blame women in general for all that has been negative in his life, I truly fear this individual is at risk of doing harm to others.

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is absolutely a clear example of what does NOT belong here.

[geek tragedy]

31. I did the same (how I met my wife) and that guy is an abuser, no doubt.

The need to control, talking about which behaviors out of women he won't 'tolerate', how a woman has to service him sexually on demand or she's gone, and of course the restraining order excluding him from the marital home from a judge.

[DURHAM D]

45. Just so you know.

This post was Alerted on and allowed to stand by a tie vote.

Seems you are really upsetting a certain type of DU "member".

[marions ghost]

36. Agree

[DURHAM D]

46. Agree.

[marions ghost]

51. We should continue to alert on this post

--even though it's been voted on, the alert is counted.

If this isn't over-the-top, then what is?

[jeff47]

32. +infinity. (nt)

[bullwinkle428]

39. I really hope that unstable disk has fallen from the vehicle by now, if you

know what I mean, and I think you do.

[City Lights]

56. It has.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=281212&sub=trans

[Autumn]

27. All I can say is you are right.

That is all

[NuclearDem]

33. Divide and conquer is the opposite of that.

It works by creating an unwelcome if not outright hostile environment for members of minority communities. Class warriors, party loyalists, and otherwise "good" Democrats express bigoted views towards women, the LGBT, AA, and/or Latino communities, and their acceptance allows the right to point at the bigotry and drive those communities away.

Standing on principle against this bigotry undermines rather than perpetuates divide and conquer. We can't campaign against the anti-abortion movement while tolerating MRA dog whistles. We can't fight opponents of gay marriage while tolerating people accusing LGBT critics of Putin and the Pope of being unwitting agents of the 1% and MIC. We can't be outraged at conservatives calling trans* individuals "freaks" while tolerating disgusting attacks on Chelsea Manning.

Purging the party of that nonsense strengthens us. The process might be unpleasant, but in the end, we're all better off for kicking homophobes, transphobes, misogynists, and racists out of the community.

[sendero]

34. If you are a man....

.... who thinks women are untrustworthy, devious, dumb or just generally dysfunctional..... or
you are a woman who thinks men are untrustworthy, devious, dumb or just generally dysfunctional....

well look in the mirror because it is YOU with the problem. And good luck ever having the kind of fantastic love and friendship that is possible until you get over your problem.

[malaise]

70. Bwaaaaaaaaaaah

I am a happily married female with loads of friends of both genders. We open doors and welcome men and women opening doors for us literally and figuratively.

Men and women are simply human with all that comes with the package.
Re that mirror -hmmmm!

[libodem]

41. Why can't we all just get along?

I don't have the answers but it doesn't stop me from wondering about it and trying to analyze the hell out of it.

Maybe because I've never been welcomed.inside the special circle of all 4 of the feminist groups, and especially the most spectacular and vociferous one, that it seems very divisive. From the start they have known who is one of them and who is not. If you are on the outside looking in, it feels very much like the mean girls in Junior High. I can see why belonging and associating are important because no one wants to be on the receiving end of the treatment.
So it is not just men but certain other women that are the enemies. It is hurtful and it feels unfair.

I miss Summer Hathaway. She was an intelligent voice I don't hear anymore.

[seaglass]

55. Why would groups that you attack welcome you? It's not that hard to get along with the members

of any group if you support them.

[libodem]

58. Goes back to when I joined, Seaglass

I always considered myself a feminist and figured I'd fit right in. Iverglas attacked me from the get go and once I had the scent on me I was rejected by the rest of the group. I think they may have thought I was a man and possibly a troll. I just wasn't doing it right enough to be understood and accepted. That's why feel like real Feminists are excluded and and certain narrowly defined idealogs are installed to echo each others pet personal ideas of what makes men suck. That is just how it looks to me. I maybe wrong. But that is how I see it.

[seaglass]

59. OK that was 9 years ago, perhaps you should let it go. Iverglas is no longer here.

I don't know what your definition of "real" feminist is but you are not any more a "real" feminist than the women in HoF or anyone else on DU who considers herself a feminist. But I can see with that attitude why you might not be welcome.

[libodem]

63. Of course

[Sunlei]

43. 'discrimination that divides' is worth a lot of ignorant R votes.