I have a question/thought/idea about desalination.

[cherokeeprogressive]

California is in the throes of what is being called a historic drought. It's going to last at least until the next El Nino event, which is predictable, but only to a point. We're entering the window where an El Nino can be expected, but it may take three or four more years until it arrives. In the meantime, our reservoirs are drying up. It's time to take drastic measures, seeing as how California agriculture feeds so many people.

Desalination is said to be a tough nut to crack due to the energy it takes. Given that the situation is dire, and so many lives are affected by drought in California, could this problem be mitigated by building desalination plants powered by small, dedicated nuclear power plants? What I mean by that is building desalination plants whose only purpose is to replenish California's reservoirs, and powering them with a new generation of nuclear power plants, whose only purpose is to power said desalination plants, such as Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

With the coming immigration reform (amnesty), we're on the verge of inviting MILLIONS more people into the southwest. They're going to need to be fed, they're going to need water to flush their toilets, and water to drink. They'll live next to the sea.

I know how much resistance there is to nuclear power, but there needs to be a realistic answer to what's to come, if for no other reason than to bridge the gap between now and when a new technology comes. Say we use the dedicated nuclear powerplants to generate the energy to desalinate, and solar to generate the power to pump the water to the reservoirs.

If a nuclear powerplant only needs to generate enough power to desalinate water, it can be small. Small means cheap. Small means safe. Small means less waste. In the case of Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors, small might mean no waste at all.

The situation is dire. Lives are at stake. There is a need to bridge the gap between what IS, and what COULD BE. Small LFTR reactors can be built in less than two years. Large scale desalination plants can be built in less than two years. Pipelines to the existing reservoirs can be built in less than two years. MANY NEW JOBS.

Thoughts?

[MindMover]

1. Desalination plants should be started ASAP ... energy does not have to come from nuclear ...

my 2 cents worth ...

[Still Sensible]

2. It is a solid idea, places like Hong Kong have

been desalinating sea water for decades.

Faced with the same situation four decades ago, there would have been a chance to do it as a public project, funded by the government in some fashion. Unfortunately, in today's political environment it can't happen unless and until someone figures how to make a windfall from it. On the other hand, if the defense department was a major beneficiary and the MIC could make the profit, it might have a shot in Washington.

[moondust]

3. Relevant:

Is solar-powered desalination answer to water independence for California?

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. I don't think solar powered desalination is the immediate answer...

Here's how I would do it: Nuclear power to replenish the reservoirs. Solar power to KEEP them full, until solar power became inadequate... then back to nuclear.

[moondust]

6. Thinking long-term,

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 01:50 AM - Edit history (1)

like the Hoover Dam or something, you'll probably run into a lot of resistance to more nuclear because of Fukushima and the California faults.

I don't know the answer.

There are already flood warnings in the midwest and likely to be quite a bit of flooding east of the Rockies due to all the snow. Quick, somebody think of a way to move a lot of flood water to CA!

[LeftyMom]

5. No offense, but it's obvious you're not from around here.

First, since the agricultural economy largely drives migrant labor there's unlikely to be an influx of migrants anytime soon.

Second, California's coastal land is expensive and largely not agricultural. Migrants overwhelmingly won't live anywhere near the ocean. The farm belt in California is inland.

Third, generating water to for the most productive agricultural land in the world is a significantly bigger task than generating water for individual and corporate use, as HK does. The expense would be insane.

Fourth, the timetable is laughable. Nobody builds anything on the California coast in two years. A major public works project? Involving water? And nuclear? And water???? Water is the root of most California political fights, and the laws governing its' use and competing claims are labyrinthine. Any such project, even if it were feasible (and I don't think it is) would be tied up in the coastal commission and the courts for decades. DECADES.

[MindMover]

7. Again, decades is not in the equation .. and you and your politicians better wise up soon ...

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. Not from around where??? The West Coast? I was born in Norwalk, California. Lived most if my life

in Los Angeles County, SIX FUCKING MILES FROM THE BEACH. Get a clue Mom... They don't cost much: The agricultural economy matters NOT A WHIT when it comes to who's crossing the creek and becoming part of the economy in this country. There's an "influx" of migrants EVERY FUCKING DAY. Hello? What the fuck are you talking about? The cost of NOTHING doesn't stop the flow of immigration across the creek. They come. They come at night, they come during the day, they come at dawn, and at dusk.

No matter WHAT HAPPENS, there is going to be a MAJOR influx of migrants... and it's going to happen TOMORROW. They'll need water, and they're NOT going to bring it with them.

[LeftyMom]

12. You sound suspiciously like that old Pete Wilson for Governor ad.

Migrant workers aren't locusts. They're making an educated and considered decision to go where the work is. They're not going to come to California when there isn't work: we already saw this in the collapse of the housing market in 2008. People went home in record numbers.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Call me stupid because I'm wondering what the fuck that even means.

Are there people coming across the border illegally or not?

It seems you're saying people are going home. I'm assuming by "home" you're talking back to Mexico.

By the way... My post wasn't about immigration, it was about using nuclear energy to desalinate water.

[kristopher]

14. OK

With that screed it's clear what values pushed you straight to nuclear as "the answer".

[kristopher]

8. Small doesn't mean cheap

They build them large because adding size to the minimum required systems is less expensive than duplicating those systems. Say on a small unit the minimum control and safety systems cost 50% of total cost to produce X capacity.
If you go with small systems and want to produce 2X capacity you have to reproduce those system costs, right?
However, roughly the same control and safety systems can service a heat exchange and power production system that will produce 3X to 4X the power of the minimum sized unit.

Those numbers are for illustrative purposes only, but I think you get the drift. Small modular reactors are being pushed by some with the idea that assembly line methods will reduce costs over building large systems on site. That's true to a point, and in addition they would allow utilities to build in phases - a strategy for reducing overall costs through lower interest charges.

However, the issue complicated because you have to build up a supply chain and that requires early units to be far more expensive than the ones that might result if the process were to successfully scale up. We are a long way from this being an available option if it ever is. One company, Westinghouse, just mothballed their program saying there simply weren't any buyers.

Light Water Designs of Small Modular Reactors: Facts and Analysis
http://ieer.org/resource/nuclear-power/light-water-designs-of-small-modular-reactors-facts-and-analysis/

When small is not beautiful is it at least cheap?
http://ieer.org/news/small-modular-reactors/


Is there a role for small modular reactors?
http://ieer.org/energy-systems/is-there-a-role-for-small-modular-reactors/

There are various renewable technologies that would probably work better, but the scale needed to meet the needs of a region like is now in drought means the lifestyle is going to alter radically unless mother nature step in.

[RobertEarl]

9. More nukes? Insane idea

What everyone needs to do is begin using recycled water for flushing toilets. We can even use some salt water in toilet flushings.

It will require running another waterline to each house and business, so just imagine the jobs that would create.

[RobertEarl]

15. Even simpler solution

In each home you have what is considered blackwater from toilets and greywater from every other waste stream.

A small tank in the yard that greywater flows into is used to contain and then treat that greywater which is then pumped back into the toilet. A small solar powered pump would handle that small flow so hardly any extra power would be needed.

[Vashta Nerada]

10. Whatever option they choose, it needs to be done quickly.

I'm against nuclear power, especially in a major fault zone like CA.

[newfie11]

16. Little Freeport TX had a desalination plant in the 60's

As far as I know it supplied all the towns water. I was only there around three months but rember thinking how odd to drink sea water.