Dog trained to attack is Oak Hills High School's newest line of defense

[The Straight Story]

CINCINNATI – A man dressed in black carries a pistol in his left hand, shouting as he briskly storms through the aisle of Cincinnati’s Oak Hills High School auditorium.

“Everybody get on the ground now! Get on the ground! Get on the ground!”

And then, out of nowhere:

BANG!
BANG!
BANG!

The sickening sounds of gunshots fill the school.

A 60-pound Dutch Shepherd charges at the man, clinches onto his arm and tackles the gunman to the ground.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/education/dog-trained-to-attack-is-oak-hills-high-schools-newest-line-of-defense

[OregonBlue]

1. But this will only work if the person charges in and orders everyone to the ground.

What about when it's a student who is not dressed in black and who walks in and starts spraying bullets?

[JanMichael]

2. Can you point me

to the quote in the text that states the dog is only trained to attack in that specific scenario? I read the article, and saw nothing about that-

[jehop61]

3. First thing the thug will do

is shoot the dog. Also, do they need a dog on every floor or in every wing of the building? How about around the athletic field or the gym? Or even in the locker rooms? Then there's the line of parents cars dropping off the kids. Or perhaps he can be stationed in the School Office? And don't forget the swimming pool area where everyone is undressed and the thug can shoot away without fearing anyone else with a gun. Silly people with silly ideas.

[VScott]

4. Who is going to protect the dog from the cops when they arrive?

[linuxman]

6. Nice.

[seattledo]

26. The dog is no longer needed after the cops arrive

How is that a problem?

[VScott]

29. Well, it could be a problem for the dog.

The fact that it's no longer needed only exacerbates the situation...

http://dogmurders.wordpress.com/

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/10/dog-really-killed-police-officer-every-98-minutes/7356/

http://www.puppycide.com/

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019809359_rosie02m.html

https://www.facebook.com/DogsShotbyPolice

[flvegan]

5. So...add a dead dog to the casualty list.

Not that I hate the idea of dogs protecting the kids and staff, but short of keeping a couple Ovcharka on the grounds that's what they're going to have. Plus, the cost of the dog(s), training and at least one handler can't be the best expenditure on safety in this situation.

[pnwmom]

7. And if the dog and the handler are at the opposite end of the school? n/t

[rrneck]

8. Guns work on dogs too. nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

11. In attack mode....

A German Shepherd can travel about 50% faster that Usian Bolt. Then there's the panic factor of staring "down the barrel" of those canine teeth -- I sort of like the dogs' odds.

[rrneck]

12. I'd take that bet.

One round of 00 buck and that's the end of the dog. If the shooter knows there is a dog around, he will be ready for him. In fact, he may shoot the dog (and handler) first just to get the ball rolling.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

13. I take it you've never been attacked by a trained dog...

Unless you've had combat arms training, it's not nearly as easy as it looks.

And seeking out and shooting the dog first (even if successful) would give staff additional time to lock down their classrooms and call for assistance.

[rrneck]

14. What's the difference between a trained dog

and a trained police officer? The cop could shoot you at a distance, but the dog has to get close. I know I can put six rounds of buckshot through an 870 in under three seconds. And I've hunted plenty of upland game which are a lot smaller and faster than attack dogs (which would be running straight at me. Read: easy target). But the main thing is I'm not crazy. The specter of an attack dog might work against me, but not somebody planning a mass shooting. The dog is just another target.

If you want to arm school personnel, a gun is still best. But these SHTF scenarios are pretty worthless on a discussion board. Add a dog and the shooter will just take that variable into consideration. And remember if the dog is going to be scary to an active shooter, how are kids going to feel having him walking around? Come to think of it, a dog bit me when I was very young and I was afraid of them for years after that. It would be more likely to upset the kids than some nut with a gun.

[proudretiredvet]

16. Dogs are more expendable then kids.

And I can do two things easily at 50 yards.
In this situation I can put a trained K-9 specifically on you and I can easily empty a full mag on target.
One last point Upland game doesn't bite or charge you at full speed.
Now a question.
What do you think the handler will be doing while you are shooting at a dog that he loves like his kid?
This is a situation that both every handler and every trained attack dog are trained for.

[rrneck]

17. How much do you think it costs to

pay a handler and a dog?
How will the handler deal with a crowd of kids when he sics the dog on the shooter?
How many bystanders will get shot in the ensuing melee?
If you plan to shoot the bad guy, why have a dog?
How many kids will be made uncomfortable by the dog?
How many kids will be allergic to the dog?
How many faculty members will suffer the same?

[proudretiredvet]

19. I would have the dog to help detect guns and explosives

The obvious question is how much is the limit that you will spend to protect our children? Pleases state a clear precise number so we know where you stand. I am very interested in knowing just how much you believe each child's life is worth. I believe that we spend whatever it costs to keep our children safe. I'm looking forward to this discussion.

As the article states you train the kids to go to the ground when told to, just like they do in Europe. This is nothing new. Both the LE and the Dog will know who the bad guy is. The dog will be well trained but still under the control of the handlers directions.

How many bystanders or children will be shot if nothing is done? The answer to that is as many as the bad guy wants to shoot. Are you good with that?

All LE have to qualify to different levels of marksmanship with differing weapons. A SWAT member has to be shooting at a different level than a normal patrolman. If they can't they don't make it on the team. You look at the need, select the weapon for that need, and train the LE to the point of proficiency necessary. It is done every day.

Some child may be uncomfortable with the security measures in place for their protection? OK. Then they need to get used to it and get over it. The alternative is not to protect the children. At least one of them may be uncomfortable with every security measure in place.

I'm uncomfortable with CHP's behind me with their lights on but they are still there. Rarely but it has happened. Me being uncomfortable with them is not going to make them go away.

I'm not sure what your question is. Does it have to do to bowing to Arab culture? I respect everyone but will not sacrifice my child's safety because of anyone's cultural beliefs. Would you?

My experience is that kids are fine with these dogs. In the civilian world this type of "patrol" dog lives with the handler and family. These dogs are well acclimated to the public and present no danger to people without the command of the handler. This is all part of the dogs and handlers training.

Some children may be allergic to the dogs but not nearly as many as will be allergic to some of the food served in the cafeteria. As with the food, those children and faculty members will have to stay away from the dog.

Many people are allergic to Tomatoes and tomato products but you will find tomato products involved in the school menu almost every day. You will also find ketchup there as well. Or how about gluten? It is all over the lunch room and there are many people who are gluten allergic and/or sensitive. Even with allergies to these things the sensitive students and faculty still manage to attend school.

This was all a big reach. I have over two decades training and handling dogs in combat zones, doing customs type work, searching for drugs on stateside and overseas basis, and working military LE in housing areas. On base military housing areas are just like anyplace else that families live with all the same problems. Most bases have their own elementary schools and the military LE are also responsible for them.

There is nothing you have listed here that is not dealt with each and every day by tens of thousands of civilian and military LE dog handlers.

[rrneck]

20. That's just grand except

a school is not a military base. And if the LE can be trained to shoot the bad guy you don't need the dog, especially if you have trained an entire generation of children to drop on command.

You shouldn't demand people "stay away from the dog". The facility exists for the children, not the dog. This is just a solution looking for a problem.

[proudretiredvet]

30. OK I will bow to all of your Superior knowledge and experience.

When you choose to rejoin reality I have a ticket for you. Until then we will continue as you want doing what does not work.

I've trained more civilian LEO dogs than military dogs.

Have a good day.

[rrneck]

31. Oh, don't be like that.

You don't know what I want. You just think you do.

[proudretiredvet]

32. I may not know what you want

but we all know that your knowledge about how working dogs are used and their ability of working dog is very limited. The dogs save lives but won't unless you have them in the right spot at the right time.

I will venture one more thought. Sometimes I wonder if some of the anti gun left will do anything to make our schools more secure and safer for our children. What they want is to be rid of guns. If the schools are made safe before that happens then they loose the leverage of that issue.

To them I say it is time to make the schools safer in the ways we can right now or get off your high horse on guns.

[rrneck]

33. It's true,

you've no doubt forgotten more than I will ever know about working dogs. The objections I raised about dogs are no different than every school board will have to deal with from parents over and over. Is the benefit worth the controversy? But whether or not the dog can do the job is just part of the problem. Every solution brings with it its own set of problems. Most schools can't afford schoolbooks. A dog is another "mouth to feed".

And I'm willing to bet that when the handler shows up to work in the morning he doesn't just pull any dog off the rack. Every cop can use a gun, not every cop can handle a dog. Specialized training and personnel means more money.

I don't necessarily mind cops in schools, but I don't like to see it. Some dude in kevlar packing heat is simply out of place in an academic environment. Adding a dog to the mix is that much worse. And "deal with it" is really no solution.

The best solution I can come up with is harden the target. Only one way in and make visitors deal with eye to eye with somebody that can deal with them. School shootings are a horrible tragedy, but anyone at any school is more likely to be struck by lightning than to get shot by some maniac. To my mind, a cop at the door with his hand on a Glock is plenty.

[TorchTheWitch]

22. The handlers are already on the force

They are already being paid to be on the force anyway.

The whole point to the dog is that they are far faster, stronger and better than any human in taking down a threat, and putting a dog in the hazardous position is far better than putting a human being in that same position. They're also far more able to detect a threat than humans because of their extraordinary sense of smell and hearing. They often wear bullet proof vests when on duty (our local police had four K-9's now, and their vests were donated by some local animal lover that could afford to and has remained anonymous). A trained police dog is around $15,000. Yep, that's a good chunk of change but far cheaper than hiring additional officers instead that aren't going to be as useful.... once the dog is acquired it doesn't get a paycheck, benefits, pension, etc. The dogs also live with their assigned officers for life unless the dog needs to be transferred to another officer (firings, death, injury that prohibits K-9 duty, retirement, etc.)... the dog would be transferred to another officer and then live with his/her family for life.

Yes, some people are afraid of dogs. They won't be when properly introduced, see that the dog is friendly when not given an attack command, and come to love them. Part of training with the dog is to take it around in public (or in this case in the school) to introduce the dog to people so that anyone afraid of them can see first hand that the dog is friendly and under the total control of the handler.

Anyone with dog allergies would obviously be discovered, and those people would know not to pet the dog... having the dog patrol the school isn't going to set off anyone's dog allergies anymore than it would for having dogs being walked around a neighborhood. Schools are also much more thoroughly cleaned and much more frequently than most peoples' homes. There wouldn't be lingering or piled up dog hair on floors or furniture all over the school as it likely is in someone's home. People with dog or cat allergies know to not pet or wallow in the furniture or carpet of someone that has a dog or cat living in the home. Having a dog walk by your classroom isn't going to set off anyones' allergies, and anyone with a dog allergy would be identified and special care be taken to not have the dog close to those people.

I'm allergic to cats and so is my sister-in-law. We CAN be near cats and even pet them but have to wash our hands after touching the cat so as not to inadvertently get any pet dander exchanged from the hands to any mucus membranes such as the eyes, nose or mouth. Dog allergies are the same. We can even sit on furniture that's got loads of cat hair embedded in it, but know to either put a sheet or something on top of it before sitting on it or wash the clothes we were wearing in such a situation when we leave. A school being cleaned all the time isn't going to have pet hair and dander all over the place as most peoples' homes that own such critters would. The symptoms are similar to basic spring allergies - runny nose, sneezing, dripping or watery/itchy eyes. It's not catastrophic but a mild annoyance that only lasts for usually less than an hour as long as you wash your hands or face or whatever part that came into contact with the creature and keep your hands off your clothing in those places that might have picked up dander and transferred it to mucus membrane areas.

I'd FAR FAR rather have my kid's school patrolled by a K-9 and its handler if it was that dangerous rather than an officer or two without one even if my kid WAS allergic.

It's pretty clear you just don't know what K-9's are used for, why or why they're far better than just a human officer and FAR cheaper.

[rrneck]

23. Yeah, those K-9 officers are just sitting around waiting to get posted to schools.

The fact still remains that if the you have an officer there with a gun who is trained to use it, you don't need a dog. All of the issues people have with cops in schools would only be multiplied by cops with dogs in schools. It's a solution looking for a problem.

[TorchTheWitch]

24. WHAT?

You'd rather the officer just SHOOT people instead of having the dog take them down safely so they can be arrested, like this guy?

You'd rather the police have to search through a school just to try to FIND a criminal in the first place when a K-9's nose will lead them straight to the threat and much much faster?

You'd rather there was a big firefight going on between police and a criminal with bullets going who knows where or giving the chance for the criminal to grab a hostage before police can get them taken down when the dog can do it so much faster?

No, the K-9 makes everything infinitely safer faster and easier which is why we have them in the first place. Only a dolt wouldn't be able to see the benefit of a K-9, though the bigger question is why is our society so fucked up that school shootings and other horrible things are even happening in our schools to begin with making schools WANT police on the premises on a regular basis and metal detectors and all that stuff.

[rrneck]

25. Oh please.

The guy in the video is not an active shooter.

Have you ever seen anyone "taken down safely" by a K-9 unit? I have. It ain't safe or pretty. And the point stands. The dog is just another target that can be stopped with a gun. If a dog can figure out who to attack, surely a cop can manage to figure out who to shoot.

[proudretiredvet]

35. The dog by definition is non lethal force.

The dog can be utilized off leash and at a distance of at least 50 yards and has a psychological impact that another officer does not have. Their smell and hearing is more than 100 times ours. They are trained for building searches and can and do find bad guys that are hiding.
There are many situations where I would much rather have a trained K-9 as a partner and the other humans as backup.
Back to the point. Having another option of nonlethal force is never a bad thing, especially where many people are present.

[rrneck]

41. The most common replies would be

something like this:

Spree shooters don't usually hide and the one's that do hide are called snipers. That means if Super Trooper and Rin Tin Tin are half the psychological bulwark you claim they are, all the guy has to do is sit in a van across the street and wait for the kids to come outside to play. Or maybe even pull a fire alarm and wait for everyone to run outside in nice neat rows. Assuming he doesn't simply shoot you first.

If many people are present a spree shooter with two targets to deal with rather than one is more likely to shoot bystanders assuming of course you have not had time to train a generation of American children to hit the floor when ordered.

Look, I'm sure you're a highly trained professional and all that, but even if adding a dog to the mix would make schools safer it won't last long because anybody willing to give their life to terrorize a building full of people will adjust tactics in about five minutes. So unless you turn every school into Stalag 17 about the best you're going to do is put a cop at the door, restrict access, and use the money for any further active defense actually teaching children.

[proudretiredvet]

42. Not what happens or has happened.

We can play the what if game forever but I am grounded in reality and fact. School shooters who kill enough kids to be considered mass killers enter the school. That is what has happened in the past.

Shoot by standers??? I think they are better trained with their handguns than you believe. Bystanders are rarely shot by LEO's. It has happened but is very rare.

In a shooting situation no one has five minutes to adjust anything. You have a very few seconds at most. The shooter has the advantage of when to attack, the surprise factor. The dog and handler have the advantage of being able to practice, run realistic exercises, and train for the differing approaches and types of attacks that any location provides to the attacker.

With proper procedures and physical barriers in place I will take the preparation and defensive position every time. After all that is exactly how the military and correction facilities think about it and structure their security responsibilities. It works for them.

[rrneck]

43. Yeah, that's the problem...

After all that is exactly how the military and correction facilities think about it and structure their security responsibilities.

Schools are not military correction facilities. Did you miss the reference to Stalag 17? I don't care what you can do. I don't care how well trained you are. Your services are not conductive to the efficient operation of a school full of children. Teachers can't teach and kids can't learn in an armed camp or anything that smacks of one. If the officer and the dog are disruptive they defeat the purpose of having a school at all. That's the reality you seem to be missing.

Beefing up an active response team beyond a cop with a gun is just as much a waste of resources as regulating pistol grips and bayonet lugs. You spend a boatload of money on guys and dogs and some asshole shoots kids on a playground without entering the facility. The news will still be inundated with images of impromptu memorials, weeping survivors and family members. And there will still be a political shitstorm over the failure of whichever political party supported a solution that didn't work.

Mass shootings have been happening for decades and they will continue to happen. You can't stop them. Deal with it and face the fact instead of making promises you can't keep. I'm a middle aged four eyed academic that hasn't been to the range in years and I think I could come up with a way to beat a cop and a dog and terrorize a school. And I ain't crazy. If there is someone wiling to die to kill other people you will never harden the target enough to stop them, and if you did you would make the target not worth defending.

And by the way, I wasn't talking about LEO shooting bystanders. Two targets for the shooter means he will have to switch between targets, no doubt dumping the mag in the general direction of both. I expect it will be difficult to control the field of fire for the shooter in a building full of terrified children. Just sayn'.

[proudretiredvet]

36. The dog is another target

Last edited Fri Mar 7, 2014, 09:43 PM - Edit history (1)

BUT the bad guy can not shoot at me and my dog at the same time. Shooting at me does not stop the dog attack. Shooting at the dog lets me have a clear shot. The bad guy has no good choice and can't defend against an officer and a dog at the same time.

[Politicalboi]

9. Let's do everything else except

More gun restrictions.

[proudretiredvet]

21. Do school shooters use guns they are legally in possession of?

Almost never. By an overwhelming majority people who shoot in schools are already guilty of breaking already existing gun laws before they ever get to the school.
How is another law going to stop them?

[jmowreader]

10. No trained attack dog ever went off and attacked an innocent, either

[Iggo]

18. Attack dogs attack who they're told to attack, innocent or not.

[rdharma]

28. Of course not!

[proudretiredvet]

15. I do not see a lot of knowledge or experience being displayed here.

I'm a retired dog handler. Attack dogs, bomb dogs, dope dogs, tracking dogs, every dog type that uncle sam had in his inventory.

First you train the kids to hit the ground on command. You show them why with demonstrations like this.

Attack dogs almost never attack a person they are not told to attack or trained to attack. They are trained to attack in very specific situations. The dogs can be called off of the attack even when they are already running and in attack mode.

The "bad guy" in this demonstration had on either a bite suit or at the very least a bite sleeve, but I would bet a suit. You are not going to look like the man next door when you are wearing a bite suit. The dogs are not conditioned/trained to attack a person because of the color of their clothes.

The dog can be trained to attack the person who is shooting as well as to attack the specific person the handler wants him to.

If the shooter is occupied with shooting the dog, the kids are on the ground, the armed handler has a clear field of fire and a few seconds to engage the shooter.

I would take that every time.

In much of Europe when the cops start yelling hit the ground the public does. They have been conditioned to this for generations. This is nothing new.

There is a bonus to the trained dog on campus. That dog can also be trained to alert on anyone carrying a firearm. I'll take that too. If the on duty LEO could spot when an armed student or intruder is coming in the door there is a much better chance of protecting the students and staff before anyone gets hurt or dead.

Other countries use dogs to screen waiting lines and luggage at airports for guns and explosives. I am amazed that we do not use dogs to do more of this in our country.

[rdharma]

27. It sounds like Mark Gomer wants to make some money with his crackpot idea!

As a dog trainer....... I'm sure he hopes school districts will buy his goofy idea.

[proudretiredvet]

37. Goofy ideas.

The president of the United States is partially protected by dogs.
Most major airports in Europe and Israel are protected by dogs and without the grouping that the TSA does here. They have not had a security incident on departing aircraft in a very long time.
Law Enforcement officers use dogs daily to protect UN personnel.
LEO's use K-9's at all major professional sporting events during periods of increased terrorist threats right here at home.
Customs uses search and attack trained dogs.
The Navy
The Army
The Air Force
The Marine Corp
The Coast Guard
US Border Patrol
All use many different types of trained K-9's.

I guess there are just a huge bunch of folks out there who very successfully work each and every day to protect our citizens and all of them with "Goofy Ideas."
The data that this Goofy Idea has worked, is working, and will work well into the future, is overwhelming.

[rdharma]

38. You don't know dogs...... do you?

This is an asinine concept!

[proudretiredvet]

40. You are right.

I only spent 20+ years as a military dog handler/trainer and more than a decade training LE dogs after I retired to realize just how right and knowledgeable about dogs you are and how little I know.

I'm sure glad you pointed that out to me, and every other dog knowledgeable person here. I'm humiliated to know and understand that every other dog knowledgeable person here is just totally agreeing with you.

Thank you so much for making this so very clear to everyone.


I'm still laughing.

[rdharma]

44. Congratulations on your retirement nt

[Initech]

34. Channeling their inner C. Montgomery Burns?

[rdharma]

39. I luv the Simpsons! nt