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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations
By Glenn Greenwald
One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.
...
Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums. Here is one illustrative list of tactics from the latest GCHQ document we’re publishing today:
...
But these GCHQ documents are the first to prove that a major western government is using some of the most controversial techniques to disseminate deception online and harm the reputations of targets. Under the tactics they use, the state is deliberately spreading lies on the internet about whichever individuals it targets, including the use of what GCHQ itself calls “false flag operations” and emails to people’s families and friends. Who would possibly trust a government to exercise these powers at all, let alone do so in secret, with virtually no oversight, and outside of any cognizable legal framework?
Then there is the use of psychology and other social sciences to not only understand, but shape and control, how online activism and discourse unfolds. Today’s newly published document touts the work of GCHQ’s “Human Science Operations Cell”, devoted to “online human intelligence” and “strategic influence and disruption”:
...
Under the title “Online Covert Action”, the document details a variety of means to engage in “influence and info ops” as well as “disruption and computer net attack”, while dissecting how human beings can be manipulated using “leaders”, “trust, “obedience” and “compliance”:
...
Whatever else is true, no government should be able to engage in these tactics: what justification is there for having government agencies target people – who have been charged with no crime – for reputation-destruction, infiltrate online political communities, and develop techniques for manipulating online discourse? But to allow those actions with no public knowledge or accountability is particularly unjustifiable.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
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rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)
bobduca
(1,763 posts)that would be contrary to sense!
Autumn
(45,068 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...and which DU poster is a covert agent or paid-to-post operative?
reddread
(6,896 posts)much as they try to swap domestic intel jobs between allies,
I would not be surprised if some neighbors to the north were picking up a few Loons involving themselves here.
Autumn
(45,068 posts)would be easy to tell. The differences in policies between Liberals and republicans stand out like a beacon. But if there were any of the covert agent or paid-to-post operatives posting here, they are a real waste of time and money, cause they can't change anyone's mind. People here on DU are very aware of political moves, policies and politicians.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)a critical or "underground" type of thing about our President.
Perhaps someone who posits him- or herself as absolutely and by far more sensible than anyone else on DU.
I can think of at least one person who fits that profile very well. This one combines infiltration and propaganda functions. But what do I know. I'm just guessing.
One thing is certain, a government infiltrator would never agree to criticize the President. would attempt to place him- herself in a psychological position of leader and never express an original idea. I can think of one who fits perfectly.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!
You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!
This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.
I'd shoot them an email ASAP.
Well done!
Well. Fucking. Done.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Someone who toes an ideological line is not to be trusted. It is normal to have a few opinions that diverge from those of the authorities.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)all one does is keep posting the same inane graphic in various threads.
Any insight on that?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Sunstein advocates that the Government’s stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups.” He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging (on the ground that those who don’t believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false “conspiracy theories,” which they define to mean: “an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role.” Sunstein’s 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story‘s Daniel Tencer.
reddread
(6,896 posts)presidency defining.
2014/2016 poison.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That idea of his for the "cognitive infiltration" of conspiracy theorist groups also is world class...
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:14 AM - Edit history (2)
What is happening in messaging from our own government is unconscionable, malignant, and creepy as hell.
We've experienced massive betrayals by our government in recent years, but these sorts of revelations....mass spying; smear and disinformation; constant, orchestrated campaigns of manipulation aimed at citizens...
The relationship of the people to the US government has been fundamentally changed, and in a profound way. Perhaps we have not lived in a free country for some time now, but they have destroyed any remaining illusion of life in this country most of us were taught to believe was our own.
These are the tactics of a totalitarian state acting viciously against the interests of its own people, not something any of us should have to associate with the United States of America.
Marr
(20,317 posts)It's completely unconscionable, and I find it sickening.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)president, because it would be much, much worse if a Repuke was president.
Remember, always be grateful for the crumbs...
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...you said it so much better:
[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.
It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.
The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013
Thank You.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)That means a lot, coming from you.
Finally, finally, this totalitarian garbage is getting some press. Let's hope it is just the beginning...
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)It makes it impossible to have the discussion because the thread gets sent off course by the same group of people.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)Everything that Obama and Congress and the courts and the police and the military do is to better and lift up the people of the US. I think the problem is you may not be clapping hard enough for fascism.
Also asking for extra porridge is a big no-no. Banks and the 1% come first here in this country
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It exposes the corruption in both parties and the close links between the big corporations and the government.
There are differences between the Republicans and Democrats. Big ones. I prefer the Democrats, but there is disgusting corruption in both parties' leadership. And oddly enough, the same banks and corporations are involved in the corruption.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and propaganda and you have dictatorship of the worst kind, by the oligarchy in our case.
There is a book on the German experience during WWII, They Thought They Were Free.
Here is an excerpt:
“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.
“This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
“You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time.”
“Those,” I said, “are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’”
https://disinfo.com/2013/10/excerpt-thought-free-germans-1933-45-milton-mayer/
I know I will get flak for comparing our current surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany. We don't have concentration camps. But there was far more to the NAZI state than concentration camps. Far more. I lived in Germany and Austria. When talking about the NAZI period, people would tell me that after all, Hitler did increase the employment rate. After the terrible inflation and then wide unemployment that followed WWI in Germany, the German people felt they were regaining national pride under Hitler. They were wrong. It is easy to be wrong, very wrong in a surveillance state with an effective propaganda arm.
And this information released so recently makes me feel more certain that I am correct in comparing our developing, still in the early stages, surveillance and propaganda state to NAZI Germany in the 1930s. In fact, a major Austrian, the Creditanstalt bank failed in 1931.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creditanstalt
The parallels are frightening.
We are not living in NAZI Germany -- yet, but we need to change our course if we want to avoid it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but we have 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's population of prisoners. And honestly, what do we call secret prisons?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Guantanamo -- practice for the future secret incarceration of Americans without trial and with secret evidence?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)"re-routing" us to Poland or Bagram as they purportedly move us from one domestic prison to another…
snot
(10,524 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:07 AM - Edit history (1)
and bookmarked.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)himself was a target of such a 'campaign'. It was classic proof of what many had already suspected, so there really IS no denying it.
We see the results of that 'security contract' right here on DU regarding Greenwald, almost to the word of what they were 'proposing' in their bid for a 'contract'. This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen. There was a proposal from the few Dems left in Congress for an investigation in those tactics exposed by Anonymous, but so far, nothing has come of it.
Most people recognize the talking points, the smear campaigns against anyone who dares to oppose policies that are harmful to the people, but beneficial to the Corporations and Big Banks.
Wikileaks also release documents before the smear campaign against Assange, from a CIA memo planning how to 'discredit him'.
In the end it is up to the people. And the exposure of the tactics on a regular basis helps to counter their smear campaigns. I guess they are getting nervous and pretty desperate due to their failure to totally control information. But don't underestimate them, from the lates leaked Wikileaks Docs on the TPP they fully intend to control the Internet the same way they have controlled the Corporate Media.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This SHOULD be illegal, but of course we have to be an actual Democracy in order for that to happen.
This is not the country I was taught I lived in.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)They needed the 'left' to put the final nails in the coffin of what was once a Democratic society. And it appears they have succeeded, or have they? It would APPEAR that way from the comments we are now seeing supporting what no DEMOCRAT would ever have have supported just a few short year ago.
Certainly they panicked when OWS spread like wildfire across the country, exposing the deep opposition they probably thought they had suppressed to the change from Democracy to Corporate State. And in other parts of the world, Europe eg, where they installed Corporate candidates to implement their 'Austerity programs' stealing the sovereignty of once first World Nations, like Spain and Ireland, now under the thumb of the IMF and the World Bank.
The uprisings in France, Spain, the Indignados, Greece, brave but to no avail as their country was sold from underneath them to private 'investors'.
And here, where it is progressing as planned after they think they successfully crushed the opposition to their fascist policies.
And now, on to the Ukraine, where the IMF and the World Bank have quickly moved in to impose on that country, their draconian policies of Austerity after ousting their democratically elected government. We CANNOT HAVE ANY opposition to the final takeover of the world's resources.
I wonder why any democrat would support these coups, now happening at record speed in various parts of the world.
By next week, the Ukraine will most likely be enslaved to the World Bank and the IMF with a puppet government installed to make sure there are no more 'glitches' in the plans to control that country.
It's comforting in some ways to watch the consistency of it all play out. Devastating in terms of what it means for the future of the world's 'democracies' now beholden to Wall St. and its unauthorized World Bank and IMF.
They were clever, even we were fooled for a while, getting Dems on board after locking up Republican support for their egregious policies.
But nothing this destructive to so many people can last. And I think they know that, which is why to them, the people, not 'terrorists' are the enemy. Which is why they are spying on EVERYONE. They are paranoid, and they should be. History is not kind to such greedy, power hungry criminals.
Sorry Ukraine to see your country in the grip of the IMF now, and the World Bank. But that is what happens when you choose to remain blind to what is really going on.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)protestors and stole billions of dollars from the people of Ukraine
qwertyq
(47 posts)yeah those.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)welcome to DU.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)But is someone is a suspected Taliban or AQ operative, it IS OK to blow them up in their home with a drone.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Once in a while they screw up & shoot a white person, though. But hey, that's just collateral damage.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the toppling of a democratically elected government rather than use the democratic process to do so.
Bush lied this country into a deadly, brutal war, his criminal policies harmed this country for decades and cost the lives of untold numbers of human beings. Not to mention the financial cost, the profiteering, the corruption. Yet, not one person suggested a coup d'etat rather than using the democratic process.
Why? That should be easy to answer for anyone who understands the difference between a civilized society and a violent, destabilized society where mob rule reigns. Because intelligent people are able to look beyond the immediate problems, bad as they may be, and understand that they will be far, far worse if democracy itself also becomes a victim of the anger, no matter how justified it may be.
It's interesting too that while you support this for other nations, you trashed a peaceful movement here USING the Democratic process to register the people's disagreement with policies and corruption and damaging policies.
I can only imagine your outrage if here, like the Ukraine which you support, protesters had emulated the Ukraine protesters and driven Bush's government from power eg. Would you have been in any way supportive of driving Bush out of office eg, in the same way? No, because you live here. I don't need to live in the Ukraine to know that what has just happened there will have dire consequences for them for decades to come.
An election would have taken care of their issues, IF the majority of the people actually agreed with the protesters. That we will never know.
Now as many of us expected, although I thought they might wait awhile, the IMF and the The World Bank have already moved in. The Ukraine can look forward to the same future as Greece, huge unemployment, the sale of their precious assets to 'pay their debts to the IMF'. Need I go on, every Progressive Democrat KNOWS what being under the thumb of the IMF means to a nation.
But they made their choice, many will come to regret it, after it is too late. Coups don't occur without consequences, most often not the kind expected in the heat of the moment.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is duly noted.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)brings back old memories. Interesting ...
I get it! Violent protests where police officers are attacked physically in the Ukraine by Western Backed 'protesters' is just great for you.
Peaceful protests using the Democratic Process by movements like OWS are to be condemned.
I'm confused, because airc, you were just outraged by reports of a few broken windows, done by groups who were not part of OWS, but which you and the Faux contingency tried to attach to OWS, were just AWFUL!! And I can only imagine your horror if the OWS protesters had attacked the police!!
Lol, I love these conversations, so much is revealed.
Here's the deal, inconsistencies like this result in a huge lack of credibility.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This is a sad reminder that some on the left cheered for the tanks in Hungary.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)How many injured cops in the US vs Ukraine?
You were just horrified by a few broken windows, such violence from OWS who didn't have a 'goal', lol!
There were two Iraq Veterans who nearly lost their lives after being beaten nearly to death and shot at by our 'civilian' police here. That was fine by many on the Right, those 'lefties' deserved it, didn't they?
Not a word of condemnation from you for all the brutality suffered by those protesters who were unarmed, peaceful and exercising a right they THOUGHT they had.
Like I said, consistency is everything, if you want any kind of credibility.
And what does Budapest have to do with anyone here? Most here were not even alive at the time, so what's your point?
Oh I get it, that typical attack on the left, the old 'commie' thing we hear so much from limbaugh and faux and it's so old even the ditto heads are bored with it by now. Shame, although no surprise, to see that here.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)when it's their team (Putin, Castro, Maduro, Yanukovych) doing the oppressing.
Yanukovych ordered the murder if his political opponents and stole billions of dollars from his own people. He was swept out because he tried to make himself a dictator. Obviously, since he's Putin's lap dog, you support him.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)diatribe from Limbaugh just to prove me right. We loved Saddam too, or did you forget? And Osama Bin Laden. Well, according to Limbaugh, the main propagandist.
Nothing ever though to say about the Right I've noticed. Have you ever attacked the Right the way you attack the Left? I don't recall?
Me, I despise Right Winger stupidity like Limbaugh and his ridiculous Ditto Heads imitating his 'commie' attacks, so old, so irrelevant in today's world, still living in the past, trying to dig up ANYTHING to attack the Left with.
Carry on, I'm rather enjoying this. It's so familiar, although not so much here on DU.
I'm sure everyone here, democrats, lefties, will remember the old 'you love Saddam' routine from the Faux contingency. The ditto heads loved it.
Of course the propagandists knew it was lie, they knew that the Left was opposed to the lies being told that would lead us into war, but that is their tactic, deliberately misinterpret the motives, and then feed the propaganda to the morons who lap it up, thinking it makes them look intelligent. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
I used to have so much fun with them. It was probably cruel of me. Can't say I'm sorry, though. They deserved it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You absolutely rock. 
Vattel
(9,289 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that support the general factual concepts you just laid forth. I think you might have fun with it. It is written in a roman noir or Humphrey Bogart style.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)No, it is not the same country. The nation has been changed, fundamentally. IMHO, that is why they LIHOP. Because they wanted to change the nation, to give corporations more hand (Seinfeld reference).
"They" really do not want to relinquish their new found power. They would have us believe that they love the nation so much that they must change it, fundamentally, until it is no longer the same nation. That's asking us to swallow a lot of bull.
jsr
(7,712 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts) geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's your duty to identify them so that they don't violate other people's rights
go west young man
(4,856 posts)and say for example, they named yours, wouldn't you then have recourse for getting their posts hidden and having them possibly banned? Just wondering as you often ask this same question, especially to long term DU'ers that post interesting content.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Because when someone invites another DUer to do something (like naming names) when the first DUer knows that will get the one who names names in trouble, it's called inciting a DUer to doing something stupid. It is not consistent with posting on an open discussion board. It is consistent with trying to shut off the exchange of ideas rather than promote it.
Please.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)There is a certain contingent that is actively trying to get people to mess up so that they will get their posts hidden or get banned. You have to be extremely careful when engaging with those particular posters because they will hit you with both barrels in an effort to make you upset.
And no, it isn't consistent with just posting - it is exactly attempting to disruption. I don't know if it is a coordinated thing, I just know it is annoying as hell to try to have a conversation with all of that chatter introduced.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
mrdmk
(2,943 posts)It was ugly then, just as it is ugly now...
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts) 
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)The TOS don't specifically say that anymore, but I doubt it's still a good idea. If you've been here for any period of time you should know this. Or maybe you do.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)And as such we abide by their rules if we want to stay here. But then, you probably know that too.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Talk about fighting for what you believe in!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to feed the propaganda to, as they were proposing with Greenwald eg, as many forums as possible counting on some picking it up for FREE, they don't even have to pay anyone, and repeating the smears for them.
How you recognize that a smear campaign is going on, is easy, always has been. People who are genuine use their own words, they don't use talking points. We learned to recognize the talking points. And of course after reading the proposed smear campaign contract on Greenwald it explained why we were suddenly seeing attacks on him as a person. I am guessing that most who join in are not being paid, just not terribly liberal in their views and more than willing to have phrases and words to use to attack Liberals with. It's not that hard, really.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)what matters is getting reform legislation passed
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Jeremy Scahill, Matt Taibi, Greg Palast and of course why we need Whistle Blowers, so that the people are informed of what their government is doing in their name and when there is wrongdoing and it is exposed, it should lead to reform legislation being passed, NOT to the punishment of Whistle Blowers or to smear campaigns against journalists. But that is where we are now, so it's imperative to support those willing to risk being targeted for telling the truth.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)they have programs that can handle up to 100 personas easily...now wether the agent can handle the program is different story
Zorra
(27,670 posts)and obvious they are to the left.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)I swear you can hear them squirming. Suddenly the beltway is a little tight, a little less than comfortable for them than it was before.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Those who are oh so easy to spot?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Iow, it is easy to see the talking points, surely you too can recognize them when you see them? Btw, why you think anyone would 'keep a list'? Liberals generally deal with smears and lies DIRECTLY when they encounter them. I know this makes it hard for them to spread the lies, but then that's OUR job, isn't it, as Liberals, to make sure the TRUTH and the FACTS get through all the propaganda.
At least that is what we did during the Bush era and eventually it did get through, because we refused to allow lies about Liberal Journalists and good Democrats to stand without challenge.
And by 2008, all the propaganda they tried to push with their talking points and smear campaigns, against Liberal Journalists, like Glenn Greenwald eg, and Liberal Dems could not get them reelected.
THAT is why it is important to recognize the 'campaigns against those who tell the truth'. I could not care LESS about the individuals, don't know them, don't care who they are, but if talking points and smears are in front of me, I will do what I always did. What we all always did.
I mean be honest, when you see confirmation of a an actual Corporate Contract being bidden on by a Security Contractor on a BLOGGER, and you get to read the tactics in their own words, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that the contract is in place regarding Glenn Greenwald, does it? Which is why it has failed. We KNOW where all the attacks on him are coming from. Thanks to Anonymous for that one.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)But I would add, 'unless he is a person of integrity and honor, like Snowden eg and Ellsberg and Drake, but those are rare people.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Like this...
dougolat
(716 posts)When the dishonesty was exposed, not even the Congressional Democrats who had been stampeded insisted on prosecuting O'keefe or re-funding Acorn. Too embarrassed, perhaps.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)That's why it continues today.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...runs and hides from these kinds of attacks.
They ran away from ACORN, Shirley Sherrod, and Van Jones so fast they left a blur....
because of accusations by Brietbart and the Tea Party.
Odd that they would circle the wagons to protect a Know LIAR, Republican, and International Laughing stock like Clapper (NSA Liar),
when they couldn't run away and hide fast enough when Acorn or Van Jones were attacked.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)These "dirty tricks" illustrate just how dysfunctional the nation has become. I could have cried for Shirley Sherrod. And ACORN was providing a vital service. They are validating the woo. Tell me they didn't allow 911 when they could have stopped it anytime along the line.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)on this site regularly and I cannot understand why the moderators allow it. Oh yes, they got rid of moderators.....
bobduca
(1,763 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Suddenly, with the internet we all have our own personal presses. That is way beyond the free press that the American political establishment wants. In its view, too much free press is not a good thing. Ha! Too late. The internet is here.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)its just data, collected somewhere, waiting.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)to encourage people to break the TOS.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)kick.
kick.
kick.
How many times have I said this is gonna come out?
kick.
ground zero battleground for truth and justice, the soul of a country besieged.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And don't forget, Greenwald and Snowden are 'traitors', according to the smear campaign.
Marr
(20,317 posts)My personal favorite was the "he's got boxes in his garage/had a stripper girlfriend/had a ballerina girlfriend and left her all alone" lines that were spewed out, rapid fire, when they were desperately, stupidly, fumbling all over each other like Keystone Cops to discredit Snowden early on.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)they are hypocrites who will come to their senses in 2017
grasswire
(50,130 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Wow.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)K&R the Article
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)anyone who claims that has got to have another agenda and is only trying to marginalize those who do not agree with them, in fact they probably date strippers and keep boxes in their garage, in other words, a total weirdo, not to be trusted, probably a closet teapublicanjihadist who hates women.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Dude.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....added the words "Depose" and then "Decapitate"
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Dude.
jsr
(7,712 posts)so we don't go astray.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
deutsey
(20,166 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Without fear of reprisal because...hey, they say they're the good guys! As for any of the rest, there is no evidence this type of infiltration is being used on any other than legitimate targets other than the amorphous claims in the article.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)
randome
(34,845 posts)Funny how the 'get scared quick' articles like this don't even address it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]
Armstead
(47,803 posts)questionseverything
(9,654 posts)the dod thinks it is acceptable to use on reporters
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8354
The plan also involved creating "two fake insider personas", one at VR and another at the unrelated Change To Win organization, which had employed a coalition of union groups to create a non-profit campaign, some months after VR's, called U.S. Chamber Watch. The plan presented by Team Themis, as the three security firms called themselves, would then use one of the "fake personas" as "leverage to discredit the other while confirming the legitimacy of the second" in hopes of publicizing the fraudulent appearance of some sort of "conspiracy" between the various progressive organizations in order to somehow discredit them.
reddread
(6,896 posts)a gentle kick for someone's spoiled fun
Marr
(20,317 posts)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)unethical and questionable, yes....
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and that Greewald, Koch, Fox, Beck, and any other hack doesn't hire a fleet of people to do the same type of character defamation? The outrage seems quite stupid in this case without invoking the bigger picture.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)You seriously are accusing Greenwald of using these tactics of hiring contractors to defame his critics?
DERP WHAT A DRAMATIC TURNABOUT! I UNDERESTIMATED HIS NEFARIOUS GENIUS!!!!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)are you without any shadow of a doubt, sure Greenwald doesn't do that?
The derp is all in your court, you can't make up shit and pretend that it's a bigger truth than my speculation. Good god, where did you crawl out from?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Depending on your viewpoint. There is no way Greenwald could hire people to do character defamation. Takes a lot of money. He isn't poor, I would assume. But that rich? No way.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I don't think there is any reason to believe that the character assasinations doesn't occur from every side of every perspective of every political hot button.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)
Poor General Clapper! under constant attack from mean old Glennie Greenwald and his cyber minions that he has clearly hired.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)of making statements that destroy reputations unfairly which is apparently part of the plan) or libel. It could conceivably be determined to be a violation of the right of freedom of association guaranteed in the First Amendment. Not all of this sort of thing could violate the freedom of association, but if taken to an extreme, it could.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
ProSense
(116,464 posts)See upthread.
Marr
(20,317 posts)"Are you saying these documents are fake, and the government isn't actually doing this? "
...I'm saying it's typical Greenwald to take cyber warfare information and turn it into a silly charge that attempts to discredit criticism of anyone who doesn't buy his bullshit.
It's not my interpretation. Look up thread. I've seen this piece posted elsewhere, and the reaction by some is very similar.
If I call you a "hack" and a "sock puppet," does that mean I'm right and you're simply a tool?
When he attacks MSNBC and Rachel Maddow, who is he working for?
Marr
(20,317 posts) You know what keeps me laughing?
The desperation of the Greenwald hi-fivers is something to behold.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Why wouldn't they admit it if they were?
Do you think that someone paid to post on DU, say by the government or someone in the Obama campaign or some similar group would feel ashamed or embarrassed by what he/she was doing?
Or do you think they would be proud to be doing it and let other DUers know about what they were doing?
Do you think that it might be very easy for regulars on DU to figure out who might be paid to post here?
Don't you think that people who always perfectly take the side of the government might be suspected by other DUers of being paid shills?
What is your opinion on the substance of the OP?
As I wrote below, I think one indication that someone might be paid to take a particular position would be that the person always followed a particular party line.
I ask that because I have been paid to write during my write -- grant requests and other things -- so I know what it is like to write in a voice and for a purpose that is not personal to you.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Let's see if you have any clue at all about what you're talking about.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
Marr
(20,317 posts)Or is this the part where you tell me GCHQ is in Britain, so it doesn't matter?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)I'm flabbergasted!
Maybe it was my pointing it out, but your tiny inkling of understanding that the United States had nothing to do with this at all makes me feel almost hopeful that you may be able to speak rationally on things.
Yes, indeed. Greenwald's smarmy agitprop is actually partially correct: governments can cause people harm! In fact, as people in the Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela, and Uganda can attest, it usually goes further than to scare a bunch of script-kiddie "hacktivists" away from a site they set up to coordinate their wire-fraud and other assorted computer-related felonies. Personally, I would prefer for most of them to be caught and thrown in jail for their crimes, but governments can be lenient as well. And Great Britain likely felt the need to only be proportional to the damage "Anonymous" inflicted.
No, the interesting thing to note, Marr, is what's not being done. Greenwald clearly has a chubby for harming the U.S. But of late, he's released basically nothing the NSA was responsible for. Last week, it was that the Australians had intercepted some communication between the Indonesians and a U.S. Law Firm. This week, it's the British engaged in some mostly harmless "turnabout is fair play" on the DDOSing Anonymous script kiddies. If there were some amazing anti-American bombshell beyond the known-since-2005 pin register stuff, he would have released it by now. But he hasn't. So one has to conclude that he doesn't have anything more.
Oh, I'm sure there will be ever more desperate releases. Maybe some breathless expose that Brazil's ABIN uncovered (they openly spy on bikini clad girls walking on their beaches!!11!!1!). But all the real stuff has played out. So all they have is foreign stuff which only serves to convince the haters - who can't read, and will blame the NSA and U.S.
I expect to make his millions of dollars, Greenwald will be releasing this kind of stuff for some time.
Well, all except anything that makes the FSB look bad (no matter how truly awful it is). Greenwald and Snowden are anti-American. Not anti-Russian. And they both know who Snowden's real master is now.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
Marr
(20,317 posts)...just let me know now and I won't waste any more time with you.
The GCHQ and the NSA have a long, well-known history of working together closely. Several big stories came out just last year on precisely that topic. The documents in question were specifically presented to the NSA by the GCHQ.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Anonymous can be anyone with any intention, any point of view. There isn't just one anonymous or even one anonymous group. I believe I recall an instance in which a person claiming to be anonymous posted information about a rape which turned out to be true. That particular anonymous helped to bring an injustice to light. That was good. When people use the name anonymous to hide crimes, that is bad. So it is rather absurd to talk about attacking, condemning or condoning anonymous. It depends on what that particular anonymous is doing.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Snowden book he will release...a book already scooped by Luke Harding's Snowden book.
Greenwald's book is due out on March 25th....best to inoculate oneself from the criticism beforehand.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
bobduca
(1,763 posts)so right back at you.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts) bobduca
(1,763 posts)Also click your jackboot heels while you do it.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Why would I consider it a smear to associate Greenwald who is a journalist with a crypto-fascist money grubbing conspiracy peddler?
Naturally because Alex Jones and Greenwald are my heroes? That's the conclusion a smear merchant would make.
You: "Hey dawg, I heard you like smears by association so I added another smear by association to your smear-by-association-call-out subthread."
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)on cue.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)I'm elated that you finally made a statement that, shall we say, was "correct"?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts) sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)This Democrat is STILL outraged over the Government spying on the American people. How about you? You haven't said.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)when Bush was found to be breaking the law. We were even more outraged, remember. when Congress, rather than prosecuting the criminals, changed the law to protect them.
You needn't worry about me changing, I am consistent on expecting our government to take their oaths of office seriously and not to violate them regarding 'defending and protecting the Constitution of the US'.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Did you agree with it when Bush as caught doing it? I didn't and I don't now, which I already said and which you call 'wrong'. So thanks for finally answering.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
Number23
(24,544 posts)Spouting utter nonsense (again, As Usual) and chasing folks around as if anyone is even REMOTELY interested in their opinions.
And as for that post you linked to... 
All you can do is just shake your head.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts) LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's unfortunate that people such as myself who know very little about these topics, have to wade through sub-literate, half-educated, idiotic posts like yours which contain nothing but irrational emotion to find the few gems of actual substance.
No doubt, you'll certainly rationalize it as something other than what it is, or attempt to justify its very existence, but for all intents and purposes, yours is a petulant, less-than-clever, half-witted waste of people's time.
(insert rationalization here-- so as to feel more clever that you actually come across as...)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)government agents infiltrating DU.
reddread
(6,896 posts)like so much worthless spam.
Id say cya later, but
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)You get the last word. And those who lurk have no idea why they don't respond to you, other than they can't refute you.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)not to ignore ideas, information and points of view I don't agree with.
Number23
(24,544 posts)know a genuine conspiracy if it came up and slapped them across the face with a dirty sock.
These threads pop up every few months and the fringers here pant with their delusions that they are "outing some conspiracy" of "covert agents" that post on DU. It would be funny if it wasn't so incredibly sad and dumb.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Otherwise, I don't see how the conspiracy is deniable.
Number23
(24,544 posts)requests for you to leave me alone.
PUT ME ON IGNORE. If you think that you are going to continue to stalk and harass me, I'd say that you are even more disturbed and clueless than you appear to be.
Edit: TWO MINUTES my post sat there before you just simply HAD to respond to it, huh? Is this a game to you?? Keep playing it. I will happily do my part to see you removed from this web site. The sooner you realize I have nothing to say to you and never will, the sooner you can stop wasting everybody's time.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Just as aside, you are posting on a public message board. People will respond to you, particularly when you make unsupportable statements.
For the thousandth time, I'm not going to help you by putting you on ignore-- and I'd actually say that your repeated, insult-laden demands for such (along with your baseless accusations of stalking) are what is approaching harassment.
Number23
(24,544 posts)So if you refuse, I will continue to remind you. The ONLY response you will get from me is the same -- PUT ME ON IGNORE.
I will NOT answer any of your stupid assed and meaningless questions. I will not read your posts. I don't give a damn what you think say or feel about anything. Your stalking has been noted by this entire board and if you're happy looking like a deranged psychopath then that is EXACTLY how I'm going to treat you.
Marr
(20,317 posts)You may, of course, put me on ignore if you find me so deplorable. What you may not do is make baseless accusations of stalking and personal insults. What's more, your admission above of being determined to get me banned from this forum casts those accusations in a decidedly suspicious light.
Anyway, thank you for your non-answer on the subject the documents cited in Greenwald's article. I have to assume that you don't deny their authenticity, and that's why you won't support your previous statement.
Number23
(24,544 posts)PUT ME ON IGNORE. Do not respond to me.
YOU are the one that looks bad in every single one of these exchanges. It's been well established that you goad like this because that's the only way to get someone to respond to you. As your numerous alerts on my posts demanding that you stop following me around have shown (and you can see how well those alerts have worked by my 0% hide rating), you look like the bully and stalker in these exchanges because that is precisely what you are.
I will NOT respond to your posts. My answer to you REGARDLESS OF THE QUESTION will always be the same --Put me on ignore. Or leave me the bloody hell alone. Either one works for me.
Marr
(20,317 posts)cited documents. I'm glad you're not making a such a silly denial.
Have a nice evening.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Public board or not, your attention is intrusive and unwanted. And just like in ANY public place, people have the right to ask abusive nuisances to leave them alone. The fact that you think that my asking you to stop bothering ME is the "real harassment" is definitely indicative of some truly tragic "thinking" and explains alot. It really does explain alot.
Soon the realization that this is the ONLY response you are ever going to get me from on any topic at any time has got to sink in.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Or better yet, put me on ignore.
Anyway, I'm glad you aren't defending your previous statement about paranoia. It would've been pretty silly.
Number23
(24,544 posts)0-6 this time. Like I said, at some point you are going to get the message one way or another.
Marr
(20,317 posts)First, I'm not the one trying to get someone banned-- that's you.
Second, as I've told you repeatedly, I'm not going to ignore you. Look up a few posts at JoePhilly's post #127. That's one of the reasons I'm not going to put you on ignore, and I've little doubt it's one of the reasons you want me to.
Third, I didn't alert on your post, and if you're going to accuse others of being paranoid, you might want to check these bizarre, from-the-hip accusations.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And if you never posted here again, I am 100% sure I wouldn't even notice. I am trying to get you to STOP RESPONDING TO ME and to LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE.
THAT is what I am trying to do. You are actually squatting in this thread making yourself look even worse than usual for what?? To prove that you are going to respond to someone who has absolutely no interest in your points, your questions, your thoughts or positions and has taken every single opportunity they can find to tell you that?
And the fact that you cannot see how incredibly, desperately pathetic that makes you look is PRECISELY one of the many, many, MANY reasons I am asking you AGAIN to leave me alone.
Marr
(20,317 posts)of allowing someone else the last word.
By the way, your admission that you wouldn't even notice if I stopped posting (which I completely believe since the last exchange I recall with you was months ago), kind of makes your earlier accusations of "stalking" seem a bit disingenuous.
Number23
(24,544 posts)The amount of times I have asked you to leave me alone show more than anything the truth of the matter which is that you started this stupid little game, you CONTINUE to play it despite repeated requests to stop and have been playing it for a long time.
The person who refuses to stop stalking me, openly acknowledges that they won't leave me alone despite me having asked them (by this count) about ten times over less than a year to do so is is actually saying that my accusations of stalking are "disingenuous." I'd laugh at this shit if it wasn't so stupid, unnecessary and indicative of something that seems to be quite serious on your part. And the jury comments from all the times I've been alerted on show that more and more people are seeing you. That is not something that you should want to happen. People like you do best under the radar.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Jesus Christ, you're boring.
It's clear to me now that you have nothing really to say beyond silly insults and loony accusations. As a kindness to the rest of the forum, I will stop responding to your insults now, and cease providing you a platform. Enjoy the last word.
Good night.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And you could have "spared" all of us and done your "kindness" of not responding to me the first 20 damn times I asked you to do so. Your behavior is so unhinged and devoid of logic that I honestly have NO idea what you seek to gain from all of this. The only thing that's come from all of this is that more folks have seen exactly the type of person you are.
You make no sense. And that is the last word on any of this or so I desperately hope.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)
Number23
(24,544 posts)Like I said, you need to worry about your own behavior. You're beyond embarrassing yourself.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Since you're so concerned about rude and insulting posts I was sure you would want yours pointed out to you so you can catch yourself next time.
Number23
(24,544 posts)occupied.
You are making such a spectacle of yourself. And for absolutely no reason whatsoever. I'm loving it.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)You think DU is over run by government agents.
I'm betting you have a list.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I said the results of their work are clear here every day.
If you're asking for my opinion, I think certain narratives are advanced on blogs and forums by paid posters, yes. The article posted in the OP makes that a pretty safe assumption.
I certainly think those narratives find their way here-- whether they're posted by actual paid posters directly, or just people who read them elsewhere and were inclined to repeat them of their own accord, I cannot say.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Are they agents of the GOP, endlessly complaining about how terrible Democrats are, working to get Democratic voters to give up and stay home.
Or, are they just regular folks who fall for that tactic when used in other media outlets, who then repeat it on DU unaware that they are being used by the GOP to reduce turnout?
I cannot say.
Marr
(20,317 posts)On the other hand, the documents posted in the OP's article pretty much prove that one sort exists, while the other is just idle speculation.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)discusses the propagandizing by the government very clearly.
And many on DU notice a few never waivering and always positive reciters of propaganda and talking points for the president.
A normal Democrat supports the president on some policies and not on others. That is normal.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)anything unless we communicate with each other about issues and try to understand each other.
The Democratic Underground is for people who identify strongly as Democrats but don't necessarily agree with everything that the present leadership of the Democratic Party does or says. We would not be "underground" if we were part of the mainstream, overground crowd.
Someone who is mainstream Democratic all the way, 100% can post on many other websites including maybe the one associated with the Obama White House.
Here, we are underground, trying to talk not only about the great things done by Obama but also about the things he could do much better. One of those things is to end most of the surveillance and all of the propaganda. And while he is at it, he should call for the passage of a constitutional amendment that overturns Citizens United.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)used to increase GG's wealth, and divert attention away from the issues like women's rights, voter rights, minority rights, access to healthcare, affordable housing that they used to CLAIM to care about. There's definitely been an infiltration, and it ain't who they think. 
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)I would love to see some clarification from Admin, as how they define "kooks and crackpots" here:
Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, including advocates of violent political/social change, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)The hands-off approach has definitely allowed a whole lotta wiggle room where the TOS are concerned.
ecstatic
(32,701 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)is a rich man's game. GG is rich, and getting richer because he has government secrets that belong to all of us, and he's out making billion dollar deals with the 1% to increase his own wealth and notoriety. He was a scheister hack lawyer, and a dishonest one at that. Fuck him.
"NSA reporter Glenn Greenwald partners with billionaire eBay founder for new venture"
Pierre Omidyar
You know, some time ago GG openly ruminated about some unnamed billionaire running for POTUS, who wouldn't need financial support from either of the two major parties. It can't be his new financial backer, who's a French born Iranian-American. And if DU is still a partisan board, then GG and his followers should be treated like any other opposition political group.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)alongside Octafish's "Anatomy of a Deep State". The larger picture is now being given lots of daylight. We, the people, are being duped, spied upon and manipulated by our own government. The subject should not be up for debate anymore. The first look link should be recommended reading for all DU'ers now and in the future.
reddread
(6,896 posts)following on the Crimes of the Century that the Bush Administration was.
and that was no small time Republican operation.
our entire government and military are at fault.
the "media", particularly the corporate culture that buys the media silence.
this is about as big a deal in modern American history as we will live to see.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)..and there are people here recoiling and writhing from the rays of the Sunlight.
The Bright Sunlight shines right through them,
and makes them soooo transparent.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
hunter
(38,311 posts)For that I must thank my religiously insane mom.
When I was a kid our family would get kicked out of churches. Literally. Big burly bouncers in the foyers.
If what God told my mom differed from what the current church told my mom, well you know who we followed. My mom's God won.
We ended up Quakers. My mom could say what God had told her, people would listen respectfully, and then everyone moved on peacefully...
That sort of thing didn't go over so well with the Catholic church or the Jehovah's Witnesses.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)lots of information there
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)
Puglover
(16,380 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Your derision is noted.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)of this is standard agitprop strategy, and has been used for just about forever. Discrediting, splitting, infiltration, and reputation destruction have always been standard techniques.
Some nice infographics, though, describing the process, assuming people don't already understand it.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)aren't as old and experienced in the Church Committee, Watergate, Spying on Civil Rights Workers in the 60's, J. Edgar Hoover and more.
So...I think it's a refresher course but also reveals Spying on Steroids.
Old News for You and I....but, that it hasn't ended but only grown with Internet Capabilities does make it "New News for the Newbies."
Just saying....
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It is sickening. It is OK if the people in the government on their own time and not in their official capacity propagandize, but they need to a) not do the actual mechanical work like GOTV, etc. of party politics on the time they are paid to govern, and b) they should not hire people to propagandize if the people doing the propagandizing are pretending to be unassociated with the government. If people do not state that they are being paid, they are lying by omission, misleading or you could say defrauding other participants on the internet. It makes the administration that pays for that sort of political ad placement look really sleazy once they are found out. That is what causes distrust in the government.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)Read the comments after the article...WOW! This is a massive problem.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)[font size=3]It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur.[/font] Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.
It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.
The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.[/font]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)that so many here are shocked about this. When I was demonstrating against the VW there were about 200 of us. Later we found out that half of us came from the intelligence services. There are a lot of different ones. They probably even took pictures of each other without realizing that they were in competition.
OWS suffered from the same. Those, who were discovered, showed a clear desire to provoke and stir up the rest.
So, why not the internet? We just have to take everything with a huge, huge grain of salt. IMO
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)a few of us oldsters from the 'hood went to be present hoping that our presence would warn anyone contemplating any violence that we would not accept that. Of course, we were not the OWS types. We did not look OWS at all. One young man who looked like a police officer in civil clothes kept staring at me as if he was shocked. I think he recognized me from somewhere, and I suspect I know where. It is a place where the police and very respectable people often meet and where the very respectable people are rather in a position higher than the police. I am pleased to think he might have had a little more respect for OWS after that. He was definitely crashing the party to take names. I and my friends there to show support. I felt it was pretty clear that surveillance was in progress.
frwrfpos
(517 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)
pa28
(6,145 posts)No, not here.
Seriously though. I believe DU should have a rule requiring paid posters to disclose their status. If they are found to have been a paid poster and not revealed that fact those posters should be banned.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)However, Wikileaks and Anonymous seem to enjoy exposing the kind of scum who would hang out on political message boards as paid posters.
If they received a list of identities posting on political boards from a known contractor it might make some interesting reading.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In fact, they would be surprised about what people say about them in private DU e-mails to each other. Some of those paid folks post some good things. When they go overboard and make fools of themselves, they simply elicit laughter from the real DUers -- but in private.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Yup!
Just like you caught on to that one guy/gal....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4566378
Did you tell skinner about your insanely awesome detective skills of being able to identify paid shills and infiltrators?
Thank gawd for REAL DUers like yourself!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Here is (more) evidence that our own government is engaged in psyops against its people, yet the thing you seem upset about is that DUers are concerned that it could/has happened here. Very odd.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You don't know me very well. I'm very easy going and don't get upset easily.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Cali_Democrat (19,183 posts)
171. Holy fucking shit!!11!
You've caught them! This is really an EXPLOSIVE revelation!
You've discovered a paid govt operative on the DU!
This is definitely something skinner and the admins should know about.
I'd shoot them an email ASAP.
Well done!
Well. Fucking. Done.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I was actually having a good laugh as I was typing that out.
The fact that people think they can actually identify paid posters on the interwebz strikes me as very amusing!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)The fact that our own government would do this is not what you chose to comment on...instead you tried to poo-poo the possibility that it has happened here. Telling.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The government violating the law? Nothing to see here, move along, go back to demonizing the individual.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Taciturnus Consensu
Vattel
(9,289 posts)ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Or are you British?
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)As others have said, they're very easy to spot too with all their personal insults and talking points.
That's the thing with propaganda, it never changes regardless of the topic. Propaganda tries to elicit an emotional response instead of a rational thought process.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)they think as they do. One of them posts a lot of quotes from here and there, most of which are talking points. Still, some of the information from that person is quite useful and interesting. Still, he or she should let other people know that what he or she posts is not his or her original thought. It is OK to post other people's comments and thoughts some, maybe even much, of the time. But always? That's where you begin to suspect a paid poster.
Also, as someone mentioned, all those personally insulting posts meant to hurt people's feelings. Those who post them are suspect.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta
- Maybe that's why DU is in so much turmoil. Well, more than usual.
Little_Wing
(417 posts)Late to the discussion, but so appreciate this OP. Watching this country disintegrate into a police state is beyond enraging.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)
Pastiche423
(15,406 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Or has she dropped that now? That used to be her catchphrase. I can't see, she's been on my ignore list for ages.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Without having read beyond the OP yet, I'm pretty certain I'm not the first to make this observation.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)
davekriss
(4,616 posts)This from Steve Kangas - last century! - before he killed himself in 1999 (two bullets to the head in the bathrooms of R Scaife offices, iirc):
CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.
This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.
Why would it surprise anyone that the same establishment that sponsored our Central American policy post-Carter has now turned this same apparatus upon its own citizenry?
I mean, cmon', GWB appoints the architects of Honduran and El Salvador death squads to high posts in his domestic administration, burns the constitution in pursuit of wars for crony profit, deepens the entrenchment of shadow government - why is this a surprise?
No candidate at cross-purposes from these powers survives the national stage (think Gross' Friendly Fascism) - thus is spawned Barrack Obama. His progressive instincts were cut off at the knees as soon as he took the oath of office. He has influence, but not too much - otherwise he would not be in office...
What did we expect, given our history?
reddread
(6,896 posts)although some interested parties seem to be in Denial mode.
others Disruptive, demanding NAMES! PROOF!
Yet the recs always seem to tell a tail.
Must be serious demerits for hitting the button.
that Greenwald guy has their number, and it seems he has earned their contempt, hatred
and fear.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)1. It's all a conspiracy theory.
2. It's old news. Everybody knew this was happening.
3. But it's LEGAL.
4. Something smeary about Glenn Greenwald.
5. It's Obama hate.
Finally, we have media attention to this reeking, totalitarian-style government campaign of smearing, disinformation, and manipulation, targeted at its own citizens.
They honestly don't know what to do.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)That's a new hilarious turn of play. Of course its asked as a question.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)jsr
(7,712 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)whistler162
(11,155 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)What are you getting at?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)For instance. "I insist 2+2=5. And I'll just bet some smartypants is going to say it's 4. just watch"
That doesnt mean someone responding and pointing out the answer 4 is wrong.
Here is at least one prior thread on this same subject 18 months ago. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1004633
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)Star Member stevenleser (17,426 posts)
170. Hate to break it to you, but, the very idea of that is ridiculous.
I'm not saying that it is above the intelligence agency of any country in the world to do something like that if it would yield some kind of important result(s).
But the fact of the matter is, there is nothing that influencing DU would yield any agency in terms of results. No internet forum is nearly big enough to influence enough of the country in any direction on policy. If you took all of the major internet discussion forums of all ideological persuasions in the US, I doubt there are enough people in all of them to where influencing them would matter. That is before you get into the more detail oriented problems like, for instance, trying to get all of DU and all of HotAir to go the same way on an issue.
The only folks that buy stuff like this are the kind that generally buy into creative speculation ideas.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Your arguing with me is proof of how difficult it is to convince any other DUer of anything.
I've even provided the link and you still dispute that this has been asserted before.
Good luck to an agent provocateur convincing DUers of ANYTHING.
reddread
(6,896 posts)I suppose the literal interpretation of your last sentence can stand.
But these sorts of GOVERNMENT DEPLOYED SOCK PUPPET OPERATIONS
are not looking to stir up bad behavior in their victims. They are there to keep the bad stuff safely
covered by their "plausible" denials and disruptive attempts. Attempts to silence or remove offending POV's.
Trying to sucker people into violating the board rules.
As far as inciting crimes, thats a tough road for an infiltrator surrounded by peace and justice minded adults.
If they hope to succeed they have to do all the work and prey upon someone of weak mind and
immature spirit.
Having been somewhat famously spied upon by a JTTF infiltrator, I realize that it was not an opportunity
for provoking illegal actions, but if it had been, that surely would have played out.
It is more than enough that OUR government was deploying military "anti-terror" assets on peace advocates,
rather than expending all efforts watching over weak points in infrastructure.
It is almost completely certain that the political movements in opposition to illegal invasions and the usurping of
constitutionally guaranteed protections by a government unwilling to protect its own election process
WAS the main concern.
thats a straw horse youre riding.
Maybe we should take up a collection and buy you a real pony.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)are you saying this op and greenwald's article are not true?
reddread
(6,896 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)such evidence, it's "old news"?
Huh?
reddread
(6,896 posts)
neverforget
(9,436 posts)spying. Under Bush or another Republican President, they'd be having conniptions over it.
TBF
(32,056 posts)of things posted on DU repeatedly. Is there a problem with that?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)TBF
(32,056 posts)I must have missed it.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
Romulox
(25,960 posts) Zorra
(27,670 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)ecstatic
(32,701 posts)Hmmm....
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Hmmmm indeed.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)JPZenger
(6,819 posts)If people are being hired to participate in web discussion groups in various languages around the world in order to discredit fake conspiracy theories, that is a good thing. (In the 1960s, US city police forces found that a false rumor could quickly cause violent riots, and they started "rumor control" hotlines where people could find out if a rumor was true.)
Of course, if government agents are spreading lies, that is an entirely different matter.
I believe this effort is probably more concerned about protecting the reputations of the US military than protecting Pres. Obama.
reddread
(6,896 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Should be pinned to the top of every board.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Always the same group.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
reddread
(6,896 posts)no place in this party for murderous punks who care nothing for the suffering of the innocent.
just bloody lust for profits and stolen power.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)hedda_foil
(16,373 posts)Thanks, folks, for demonstrating to the rest of us, so many of the cointelpro techniques discussed and illustrated in Greenwald' s article. You've made it all so much easier to recognize.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)easy as 123, looks like people arent happy with this information?
those charts need to be posted EVERYWHERE!
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)and found out about it?
paranoia is so out dated.
i wonder if you have the freedom to admit it?
reddread
(6,896 posts)too frightened to answer a question.
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)And they're not supposed to practice psyops on US, goddamnit.
reddread
(6,896 posts)unless they get caught.
then they stop.
really.
they said they did, didnt they?
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)--->
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)