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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOffshore Wind Farms Could Knock Down Hurricanes
By Mark Fischetti
Hurricanes are unstoppable, right? Apparently not. An intriguing new computer simulation shows that 78,000 large wind turbines spread across 35,000 square kilometers of ocean outside of New Orleans would have cut Hurricane Katrinas category 3 winds at landfall by 129 to 158 kilometers per hour (80 to 98 miles per hour) and reduced the storm surge by 79 percent. The same collection of turbines offshore of New York City would have dropped Hurricane Sandys winds by 125 to 140 kph and the surge by up to 34 percent.
That sounds impressive. But wait
78,000 turbines? Each one 100 meters high with a blade span 127 meters in diameter spaced about 650 meters apart and spanning a region of ocean 2.5 times the size of Connecticut? The idea sounds crazy, except for the bottom line: The cost would be zero, says Mark Jacobson, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford University. The turbines pay for themselves through the revenue from generating electricity. The storm surge and wind protection are freea bonus.
Actually the cost to erect such a massive wind farm, or set of farms, would be many billions of dollars. But Jacobson says the cost would be recouped over time through electricity sales, replacing many coal-fired or nuclear power plants. And then there is the alternative, he notes: New York is considering building $20 billion in seawalls to prevent future storm surge damage after Hurricane Sandy caused more than $60 billion in losses in New York and New Jersey. Seawalls dont pay for themselves, Jacobson says. Turbines do.
Jacobson has calculated in mind-bending detail how turbines could defuse hurricane forces, all laid out in a new paper appearing today in Nature Climate Change. The exercise, based on computer simulations, is the latest step in a series of grand plans the engineer has been building for renewable energy technologies.
more
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/offshore-wind-farms-could-knock-down-hurricanes1/
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)liberalmike27
(2,479 posts)Call me skeptical on this one. I just don't think even with that many it'd be enough surface area to slow a hurricane that much. But what do I know? And I'd wonder how many windmills would be destroyed by the storm as well.
But hey, you wouldn't think a power line would have enough surface area to be whipped around by the wind either, but it does. The jury in my mind is hung on this one.
I'm all for the idea of wind farms--and like I've said before, when I see windmills I see progress. They aren't ugly, they're cool.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)I know that folks who live in hurricane-prone areas would cheer a system that knocks down hurricanes but ecologically speaking, hurricanes actually serve a very important role in maintaining a balance of the ecologies both land & sea.
I'm posting just one article here (among many) that outlines why hurricanes are important for maintaining environmental balance.
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/08/five-good-things-about-hurricane
justabob
(3,069 posts)I am of the same mind. I know how horrible hurricanes are, but I am hesitant to fiddle with something like that without knowing what the consequences will be down the line. I suspect killing hurricanes would just create other, equally dangerous systems in another place.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)I fear it would only exacerbate global climate change and certainly be of no benefit to sea life. What may seem to benefit humans is not always what's good for the planet.
antiquie
(4,299 posts)But I don't yet know enough about ecological impacts to even be conflicted.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I can't say how many people have thought I'm a ghoul or just plain nasty when I say how awesomely beautiful hurricanes are when seen from above.
From a human lives POV, yeah, they suck.
But on their own, they are beautiful.
And, just like wildfires, they serve a purpose in the ecology.
and speaking of fires, I was surprised some years ago when I read about certain types of conifer that actually need fire in order to propagate/regenerate.
We humans are so arrogant and stupid, thinking we can...and that we have the right to...alter the landscape and ecology to suit our own purposes even at the cost of damage to our world and all other species living in it.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)about human activity being the probable cause of more frequent snd powerful events.
I can't help but wonder if we need to counteract something we've created or if mother nature is actually doing that for us. Are these big events just a horrible consequence of made made climate change or is it nature's way of trying to correct our damaging mistakes? Does that make sense?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)A scam predicated on a hoax supported by junk science propagated by con-men!
B2G
(9,766 posts)Doyle Rice, USA TODAY 4:45 p.m. EST February 25, 2014
Forget the Great Wall of China. How about the Great Wall of ... Kansas?
One scientist thinks we can protect parts of the central USA from ferocious tornadoes by building several gigantic walls across Tornado Alley:
"If we build three east-west great walls in the American Midwest .... one in North Dakota, one along the border between Kansas and Oklahoma to the east, and the third one in south Texas and Louisiana, we will diminish the tornado threats in the Tornado Alley forever," according to physicist Rongjia Tao of Temple University.
The walls would need to be about 1,000 feet high and 150 feet wide, he said. Tao is presenting his research next week at the annual meeting of the American Physical Society in Denver.
He said that major tornadoes in Tornado Alley are created from the violent clashes between the northbound warm air flow and southbound cold air flow. He adds that because there are no west-to-east mountains in Tornado Alley to weaken the air flow, collisions between warm and cold air create turbulence and supercells that spawn tornadoes.
More:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2014/02/25/giant-walls-tornado-alley/5808887/
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)This sounds like pure BS. Are you willing to pay billions
based only on a "computer simulation "??? I'm not. A CAT 5
would snap those things like friggen tooth picks...
n2doc
(47,953 posts)First, the Cat 5 winds are only at the center. If, as postulated, the wind farms sap the hurricane of its strength, they would never see cat 5 winds. second, any modern turbine system can be made to go into safe mode by feathering the blades.
There are lots of hurdles. But I guess you know all the answers so why even try?
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)Did this guy or you for that matter think what would happen
when storm generated waves start hitting the blades??? They will
break off. And it the system "feathers", what friggen good is it??
"Oops, sorry the damn things are feathering, but they look cool!!!"
This is junk science, it really sounds like someon just wanted to
see their paper published. Good god, what crap.
trekbiker
(768 posts)100 meter turbine tower
127 meter diameter blades (3 blades 120 degree seperation)
assume safe mode is blades feathered and stopped
worst "safe mode" case: one blade stopped pointing straight down
(100 - (127/2)) x 39.37/12 = 120 ft. Hurricane waves would have to be 120 ft high just to barely touch the lowest blade tip
most likely "safe mode" case: one blade stopped pointing straight up, other two blades stopped at 60 degrees off vertical
63.5 meter blade = 63.5 x 39.37/12 = 208 ft
sine30 x 208 = 104 ft
104 ft + 120 ft = 224 ft Hurricane waves would have to be 224 ft high just to barely touch the lowest blade tips
wercal
(1,370 posts)Best I can tell, its the 'London Array', with 175 turbines.
So this proposal is a thousand times as big as the current largest.
And I believe 'feathering' the blades = hardly any resistance to the wind. So, after the winds reach a certain speed, the turbines do very little to resist wind.
Maybe reclaiming wetlands would be more realistic.
FSogol
(45,481 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)you have no idea the destructive forces it can wreak...
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)But I have to go, the market is open and I need to find
some wind turbine stocks...
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)PLONK!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Oh, the huge manatee.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Turbinocalypse followed by a Hailnado. Can't get much worse than that.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)For shame!
hatrack
(59,584 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)(Assuming the energy isn't used to run a heater)
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)But ocean waters.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)which the wind turbine removes.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)There's not much I can say.
wercal
(1,370 posts)When these turbines hit a certain speed, don't they 'uncouple' the blade from the turbine....so, you know, the turbine doesn't create more electricity than the wire is rated for?
So, don't they really free spin at some point, with almost no resistance to the wind, wind the winds are really high.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You're not going to completely eliminate the hurricane. But you'll have pulled a lot of energy from the hurricane before it reaches the point where the turbine decouples/feathers/otherwise stops doing anything useful.
You don't have to directly slow the winds at the center of the hurricane to pull energy from the storm.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The bigger turbines don't decouple and free-spin because at some point the blades will energetically disassemble themselves.
The way it's normally done is, the blades will change pitch to less-efficiently absorb wind, or the entire thing will turn, luffing the blades out of direct wind. They keep spinning, usually keep generating power, and still will have a drag effect on the wind. Just not as much.
I imagine the simulation accounted for that.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)warrior1
(12,325 posts)freedom fighter jh
(1,782 posts)Wind turbines are designed to extract atmospheric energy to make use of it. Calming the atmosphere could be a beneficial side effect. I never dreamed that wind turbines could extract enough energy to make a difference.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I think they would be snapped off like twigs in a hurricane.
Years ago when I was on a family vacation in the Biloxi area there were photos of huge barges flung far inland from Camille. The motel down the road was gone, but the sign was still there.
JJChambers
(1,115 posts)With the bonus of neutering hurricanes? Sign us up!
Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)I'm all for wind energy, but this is ridiculous.
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)350 ppm.
This article sounds like wishful thinking. Wind farms don't have the mass to cause enough friction and starvation of water vapor to knock down hurricanes.
The strong canes in the Atlantic start forming off the west coast of Africa and feed on the warm waters in the Atlantic and the Caribbean. A few form in the Gulf of Mexico.
And the more green house gases we put in the atmosphere, the stronger and more frequent the storms will be. The wind farms will become a jumble of debris with those storms, especially, if they become frequent.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)From their underwater bases in mud?
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)because of rising sea levels.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Regardless of its wind-slowing potential.
packman
(16,296 posts)There was a discussion of exploding H-Bombs in the eye of a hurricane to disrupt it. Now, that would have been interesting.
AllyCat
(16,186 posts)He said something about it depleting wind.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)One more thing to worry about.
I don't want to be the fifth planet from the sun in a galaxy far, far away.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)If we put enough of them out there, then we can make the Earth rotate backwards and go back in time!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)I haven't eaten at one since before I was a vegetarian (i.e., before 2000.)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The chain is kaput. None in Washington anymore.
I do so miss their chicken salad sandwiches and corn bread.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Well, I can either make that or go over to Black-eyed Pea
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)I know it sounds crazy, but would "knocking down" hurricanes be a bad thing?
For instance: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/11/on-long-island-coast-an-unexpected-gift-from-hurricane-sandy/281423/
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)all those wind turbines are powerful enough to blow the hurricane back out to sea, where it picks up even more very warm ocean air/water, and, sent on a detour, it ends up coming ashore someplace else where it does even worse damage.
Would the residents of that devastated area then be able to sue the people living in the other area that blew the hurricane off course to inflict death and destruction in a place it would not ordinarily have gone?
Asked only partly tongue-in-cheek...
Baclava
(12,047 posts)forget the computer games - get out there and build me my flying car like you promised!
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)My back of the envelope estimate is that the 78,000 wind turbines would cost arount $1.2 trillion.
Sorry, the idea is ludicrous.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)So until those new designs start being erected this is a pipe dream.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)and name them the Ted Kennedy Memorial Wind Farm