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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:44 AM Feb 2014

Offshore Wind Farms Could Knock Down Hurricanes

By Mark Fischetti

Hurricanes are unstoppable, right? Apparently not. An intriguing new computer simulation shows that 78,000 large wind turbines spread across 35,000 square kilometers of ocean outside of New Orleans would have cut Hurricane Katrina’s category 3 winds at landfall by 129 to 158 kilometers per hour (80 to 98 miles per hour) and reduced the storm surge by 79 percent. The same collection of turbines offshore of New York City would have dropped Hurricane Sandy’s winds by 125 to 140 kph and the surge by up to 34 percent.

That sounds impressive. But wait…78,000 turbines? Each one 100 meters high with a blade span 127 meters in diameter spaced about 650 meters apart and spanning a region of ocean 2.5 times the size of Connecticut? The idea sounds crazy, except for the bottom line: “The cost would be zero,” says Mark Jacobson, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford University. “The turbines pay for themselves through the revenue from generating electricity. The storm surge and wind protection are free—a bonus.”

Actually the cost to erect such a massive wind farm, or set of farms, would be many billions of dollars. But Jacobson says the cost would be recouped over time through electricity sales, replacing many coal-fired or nuclear power plants. And then there is the alternative, he notes: “New York is considering building $20 billion in seawalls” to prevent future storm surge damage after Hurricane Sandy caused more than $60 billion in losses in New York and New Jersey. “Seawalls don’t pay for themselves,” Jacobson says. “Turbines do.”

Jacobson has calculated in mind-bending detail how turbines could defuse hurricane forces, all laid out in a new paper appearing today in Nature Climate Change. The exercise, based on computer simulations, is the latest step in a series of grand plans the engineer has been building for renewable energy technologies.

more

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/offshore-wind-farms-could-knock-down-hurricanes1/

66 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Offshore Wind Farms Could Knock Down Hurricanes (Original Post) n2doc Feb 2014 OP
But it would ruin the view on my golf-course! DetlefK Feb 2014 #1
First, 78,000, Wow, that's a lot of windmills liberalmike27 Feb 2014 #48
I would be really conflicted about this theHandpuppet Feb 2014 #2
right justabob Feb 2014 #6
Exactly. theHandpuppet Feb 2014 #10
The turbines would lessen, not prevent hurricanes. antiquie Feb 2014 #9
Yes, yes, yes pipi_k Feb 2014 #43
Except for the part Control-Z Feb 2014 #56
But.... butbutbut wind farms are a scam! sibelian Feb 2014 #3
And giant walls will stop tornados B2G Feb 2014 #4
Sorry greytdemocrat Feb 2014 #5
It says what is possible n2doc Feb 2014 #7
Please greytdemocrat Feb 2014 #12
are you an English major?? do a little math trekbiker Feb 2014 #35
I've tried to put this in perspective by looking at the world's largest off shore wind project. wercal Feb 2014 #24
Agree. Possible, but really unlikely. n/t FSogol Feb 2014 #27
Yeah but those blades fly for MILES when they come off. n/t cherokeeprogressive Feb 2014 #8
if you've never seen a wind turbine blade embedded in 3 meters of hail, miles away from the turbine, dionysus Feb 2014 #11
You two are bad... greytdemocrat Feb 2014 #13
you tryin to cause some kind of kerflunkle? dionysus Feb 2014 #14
Not me. greytdemocrat Feb 2014 #15
Crunchy. The sound of wind turbine blade hitting a house Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #58
... dionysus Feb 2014 #60
Imagine Nawlins shredded by blades from over the horizon, then buried under three meters of hail... cherokeeprogressive Feb 2014 #19
that'd be worse than sharknado! dionysus Feb 2014 #29
Yeah but we're talking about a case where you'd have a cherokeeprogressive Feb 2014 #37
the rifflenado might, just might... be worse... dionysus Feb 2014 #53
Snort! FSogol Feb 2014 #25
You seem to have forgotten about the screaming, tree-climbing coyotes! zappaman Feb 2014 #50
Or vice-versa . . . hatrack Feb 2014 #16
but that's how the earth cools itself leftyohiolib Feb 2014 #17
Pulling energy from the atmosphere via wind turbine would also cool it. jeff47 Feb 2014 #42
It's not just a matter of cooling the atmosphere theHandpuppet Feb 2014 #49
And those are cooled by putting energy into the atmosphere jeff47 Feb 2014 #51
If you really think some turbines could provide these same kind of balances theHandpuppet Feb 2014 #54
Dumb question - wercal Feb 2014 #18
True. n/t FSogol Feb 2014 #26
At some point. The idea is you've sapped the energy from the storm by then. jeff47 Feb 2014 #40
Overspeed protection. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #41
They actually turn them off in high wind events Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #59
this could happen warrior1 Feb 2014 #20
More energy in the atmosphere is one aspect of climate change. freedom fighter jh Feb 2014 #21
This sounds like bs to me. HappyMe Feb 2014 #22
Free, clean, renewable energy JJChambers Feb 2014 #23
Yeah right! I bet all those farms who had windmills did a great job in stopping tornadoes as well. Crowman1979 Feb 2014 #28
The best way to knock down hurricanes is to reduce the green house gases in our atmosphere back to Larkspur Feb 2014 #30
They just need to withstand the most powerful winds known? Coyotl Feb 2014 #31
And meanwhile both New Orleans and Manhattan will still be fucked... Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #32
Ugly, ugly, ugly, and maintenance could be a big problem, especially in storms. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #33
We should have wind turbines along every coast in this country. Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #34
Seems like a few decades back packman Feb 2014 #36
So that right-wing nit a few months back was right? AllyCat Feb 2014 #38
but how do we keep them from blowing the earth off course? AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #39
Oh sure... pipi_k Feb 2014 #46
But, I thought wind turbines slowed the Earth's rotation down. kentauros Feb 2014 #62
Sweet, that means we can bring back Boston Market! AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #63
Are they out of business? kentauros Feb 2014 #64
There's two or three left in CA and TX that were bought by the employees. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #65
I seem to recall they did have good cornbread. kentauros Feb 2014 #66
What would be the unforseen consequences of doing this? Renew Deal Feb 2014 #44
Alternately... pipi_k Feb 2014 #45
“The cost would be zero” ... I'm still laughing over this one Baclava Feb 2014 #47
The electricity would cost 4 or 5 times as much as gas fired generation. badtoworse Feb 2014 #52
There aren't enough rare earth's to build it without new designs. joshcryer Feb 2014 #55
Well, I guess they won't be putting them off North Carolina, then KamaAina Feb 2014 #57
They should build 50,000 off the coast of Hyannis Port Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #61

liberalmike27

(2,479 posts)
48. First, 78,000, Wow, that's a lot of windmills
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:38 PM
Feb 2014

Call me skeptical on this one. I just don't think even with that many it'd be enough surface area to slow a hurricane that much. But what do I know? And I'd wonder how many windmills would be destroyed by the storm as well.

But hey, you wouldn't think a power line would have enough surface area to be whipped around by the wind either, but it does. The jury in my mind is hung on this one.

I'm all for the idea of wind farms--and like I've said before, when I see windmills I see progress. They aren't ugly, they're cool.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
2. I would be really conflicted about this
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:50 AM
Feb 2014

I know that folks who live in hurricane-prone areas would cheer a system that knocks down hurricanes but ecologically speaking, hurricanes actually serve a very important role in maintaining a balance of the ecologies both land & sea.

I'm posting just one article here (among many) that outlines why hurricanes are important for maintaining environmental balance.
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/08/five-good-things-about-hurricane

justabob

(3,069 posts)
6. right
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:09 AM
Feb 2014

I am of the same mind. I know how horrible hurricanes are, but I am hesitant to fiddle with something like that without knowing what the consequences will be down the line. I suspect killing hurricanes would just create other, equally dangerous systems in another place.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
10. Exactly.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:13 AM
Feb 2014

I fear it would only exacerbate global climate change and certainly be of no benefit to sea life. What may seem to benefit humans is not always what's good for the planet.

 

antiquie

(4,299 posts)
9. The turbines would lessen, not prevent hurricanes.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:11 AM
Feb 2014

But I don't yet know enough about ecological impacts to even be conflicted.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
43. Yes, yes, yes
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:31 PM
Feb 2014

I can't say how many people have thought I'm a ghoul or just plain nasty when I say how awesomely beautiful hurricanes are when seen from above.

From a human lives POV, yeah, they suck.

But on their own, they are beautiful.

And, just like wildfires, they serve a purpose in the ecology.


and speaking of fires, I was surprised some years ago when I read about certain types of conifer that actually need fire in order to propagate/regenerate.

We humans are so arrogant and stupid, thinking we can...and that we have the right to...alter the landscape and ecology to suit our own purposes even at the cost of damage to our world and all other species living in it.

Control-Z

(15,682 posts)
56. Except for the part
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 02:48 PM
Feb 2014

about human activity being the probable cause of more frequent snd powerful events.

I can't help but wonder if we need to counteract something we've created or if mother nature is actually doing that for us. Are these big events just a horrible consequence of made made climate change or is it nature's way of trying to correct our damaging mistakes? Does that make sense?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
3. But.... butbutbut wind farms are a scam!
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:51 AM
Feb 2014

A scam predicated on a hoax supported by junk science propagated by con-men!
 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
4. And giant walls will stop tornados
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:58 AM
Feb 2014



Doyle Rice, USA TODAY 4:45 p.m. EST February 25, 2014

Forget the Great Wall of China. How about the Great Wall of ... Kansas?

One scientist thinks we can protect parts of the central USA from ferocious tornadoes by building several gigantic walls across Tornado Alley:

"If we build three east-west great walls in the American Midwest .... one in North Dakota, one along the border between Kansas and Oklahoma to the east, and the third one in south Texas and Louisiana, we will diminish the tornado threats in the Tornado Alley forever," according to physicist Rongjia Tao of Temple University.

The walls would need to be about 1,000 feet high and 150 feet wide, he said. Tao is presenting his research next week at the annual meeting of the American Physical Society in Denver.

He said that major tornadoes in Tornado Alley are created from the violent clashes between the northbound warm air flow and southbound cold air flow. He adds that because there are no west-to-east mountains in Tornado Alley to weaken the air flow, collisions between warm and cold air create turbulence and supercells that spawn tornadoes.

More:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2014/02/25/giant-walls-tornado-alley/5808887/

greytdemocrat

(3,299 posts)
5. Sorry
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:06 AM
Feb 2014

This sounds like pure BS. Are you willing to pay billions
based only on a "computer simulation "??? I'm not. A CAT 5
would snap those things like friggen tooth picks...

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
7. It says what is possible
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:09 AM
Feb 2014

First, the Cat 5 winds are only at the center. If, as postulated, the wind farms sap the hurricane of its strength, they would never see cat 5 winds. second, any modern turbine system can be made to go into safe mode by feathering the blades.

There are lots of hurdles. But I guess you know all the answers so why even try?

greytdemocrat

(3,299 posts)
12. Please
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:17 AM
Feb 2014

Did this guy or you for that matter think what would happen
when storm generated waves start hitting the blades??? They will
break off. And it the system "feathers", what friggen good is it??

"Oops, sorry the damn things are feathering, but they look cool!!!"

This is junk science, it really sounds like someon just wanted to
see their paper published. Good god, what crap.

 

trekbiker

(768 posts)
35. are you an English major?? do a little math
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:01 PM
Feb 2014

100 meter turbine tower
127 meter diameter blades (3 blades 120 degree seperation)

assume safe mode is blades feathered and stopped

worst "safe mode" case: one blade stopped pointing straight down
(100 - (127/2)) x 39.37/12 = 120 ft. Hurricane waves would have to be 120 ft high just to barely touch the lowest blade tip

most likely "safe mode" case: one blade stopped pointing straight up, other two blades stopped at 60 degrees off vertical
63.5 meter blade = 63.5 x 39.37/12 = 208 ft
sine30 x 208 = 104 ft
104 ft + 120 ft = 224 ft Hurricane waves would have to be 224 ft high just to barely touch the lowest blade tips

wercal

(1,370 posts)
24. I've tried to put this in perspective by looking at the world's largest off shore wind project.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:12 AM
Feb 2014

Best I can tell, its the 'London Array', with 175 turbines.

So this proposal is a thousand times as big as the current largest.

And I believe 'feathering' the blades = hardly any resistance to the wind. So, after the winds reach a certain speed, the turbines do very little to resist wind.

Maybe reclaiming wetlands would be more realistic.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
11. if you've never seen a wind turbine blade embedded in 3 meters of hail, miles away from the turbine,
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:16 AM
Feb 2014

you have no idea the destructive forces it can wreak...

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
19. Imagine Nawlins shredded by blades from over the horizon, then buried under three meters of hail...
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:00 AM
Feb 2014

Oh, the huge manatee.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
37. Yeah but we're talking about a case where you'd have a
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:09 PM
Feb 2014

Turbinocalypse followed by a Hailnado. Can't get much worse than that.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
42. Pulling energy from the atmosphere via wind turbine would also cool it.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:25 PM
Feb 2014

(Assuming the energy isn't used to run a heater)

wercal

(1,370 posts)
18. Dumb question -
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:59 AM
Feb 2014

When these turbines hit a certain speed, don't they 'uncouple' the blade from the turbine....so, you know, the turbine doesn't create more electricity than the wire is rated for?

So, don't they really free spin at some point, with almost no resistance to the wind, wind the winds are really high.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
40. At some point. The idea is you've sapped the energy from the storm by then.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:23 PM
Feb 2014

You're not going to completely eliminate the hurricane. But you'll have pulled a lot of energy from the hurricane before it reaches the point where the turbine decouples/feathers/otherwise stops doing anything useful.

You don't have to directly slow the winds at the center of the hurricane to pull energy from the storm.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
41. Overspeed protection.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:25 PM
Feb 2014

The bigger turbines don't decouple and free-spin because at some point the blades will energetically disassemble themselves.

The way it's normally done is, the blades will change pitch to less-efficiently absorb wind, or the entire thing will turn, luffing the blades out of direct wind. They keep spinning, usually keep generating power, and still will have a drag effect on the wind. Just not as much.

I imagine the simulation accounted for that.

freedom fighter jh

(1,782 posts)
21. More energy in the atmosphere is one aspect of climate change.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:03 AM
Feb 2014

Wind turbines are designed to extract atmospheric energy to make use of it. Calming the atmosphere could be a beneficial side effect. I never dreamed that wind turbines could extract enough energy to make a difference.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
22. This sounds like bs to me.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:07 AM
Feb 2014

I think they would be snapped off like twigs in a hurricane.

Years ago when I was on a family vacation in the Biloxi area there were photos of huge barges flung far inland from Camille. The motel down the road was gone, but the sign was still there.

Crowman1979

(3,844 posts)
28. Yeah right! I bet all those farms who had windmills did a great job in stopping tornadoes as well.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:18 AM
Feb 2014



I'm all for wind energy, but this is ridiculous.
 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
30. The best way to knock down hurricanes is to reduce the green house gases in our atmosphere back to
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:41 AM
Feb 2014

350 ppm.

This article sounds like wishful thinking. Wind farms don't have the mass to cause enough friction and starvation of water vapor to knock down hurricanes.

The strong canes in the Atlantic start forming off the west coast of Africa and feed on the warm waters in the Atlantic and the Caribbean. A few form in the Gulf of Mexico.

And the more green house gases we put in the atmosphere, the stronger and more frequent the storms will be. The wind farms will become a jumble of debris with those storms, especially, if they become frequent.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
31. They just need to withstand the most powerful winds known?
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:45 AM
Feb 2014

From their underwater bases in mud?

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
34. We should have wind turbines along every coast in this country.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:56 AM
Feb 2014

Regardless of its wind-slowing potential.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
36. Seems like a few decades back
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:02 PM
Feb 2014

There was a discussion of exploding H-Bombs in the eye of a hurricane to disrupt it. Now, that would have been interesting.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
46. Oh sure...
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:51 PM
Feb 2014

One more thing to worry about.

I don't want to be the fifth planet from the sun in a galaxy far, far away.



kentauros

(29,414 posts)
62. But, I thought wind turbines slowed the Earth's rotation down.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:24 PM
Feb 2014

If we put enough of them out there, then we can make the Earth rotate backwards and go back in time!

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
65. There's two or three left in CA and TX that were bought by the employees.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:31 PM
Feb 2014

The chain is kaput. None in Washington anymore.

I do so miss their chicken salad sandwiches and corn bread.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
66. I seem to recall they did have good cornbread.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:34 PM
Feb 2014

Well, I can either make that or go over to Black-eyed Pea

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
45. Alternately...
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:49 PM
Feb 2014

all those wind turbines are powerful enough to blow the hurricane back out to sea, where it picks up even more very warm ocean air/water, and, sent on a detour, it ends up coming ashore someplace else where it does even worse damage.

Would the residents of that devastated area then be able to sue the people living in the other area that blew the hurricane off course to inflict death and destruction in a place it would not ordinarily have gone?


Asked only partly tongue-in-cheek...

 

Baclava

(12,047 posts)
47. “The cost would be zero” ... I'm still laughing over this one
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:06 PM
Feb 2014

forget the computer games - get out there and build me my flying car like you promised!

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
52. The electricity would cost 4 or 5 times as much as gas fired generation.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:35 PM
Feb 2014

My back of the envelope estimate is that the 78,000 wind turbines would cost arount $1.2 trillion.

Sorry, the idea is ludicrous.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
55. There aren't enough rare earth's to build it without new designs.
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 02:15 AM
Feb 2014

So until those new designs start being erected this is a pipe dream.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
61. They should build 50,000 off the coast of Hyannis Port
Thu Feb 27, 2014, 08:19 PM
Feb 2014

and name them the Ted Kennedy Memorial Wind Farm

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