Ukraine crisis: Obama offers Russia resolution plan

[okaawhatever]

US President Barack Obama has urged Russia to move its troops in Ukraine's Crimea region back to their bases and set up a monitoring mission there, White House officials say.

The offer to Russian President Vladimir Putin was made as Moscow remained in de facto control of the strategic region.

Washington has described this as an "act of aggression" by Moscow - a claim denied by Mr Putin.

SNIP

President Obama's offer to Moscow envisaged the return of the Russian troops in Crimea back to the bases of Russia's Black Sea Fleet in the peninsula, the White House officials said.

The plan - which Mr Obama discussed with President Putin on Saturday - also calls for sending a group of international monitors to Ukraine to ensure the rights of ethnic Russians are protected.

The proposal was discussed in details in a phone conversation between President Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday.

The Kremlin has so far not publicly commented on the offer.

This comes as US Secretary of State John Kerry and his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov are due to meet in Paris later on Wednesday.

Continued at Link:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26442381

[Jenoch]

1. This sounds like a good idea

except I don't know why Putin would agree to it.

I also have not seen or read about anything that says ethnic Russians are being treated poorly in Crimea.

[sabrina 1]

2. Well, there was the law, at first denied here, that intended to change the existing language law

that allowed people to speak and do their business in Russian, the language spoken by large numbers of people in Crimea. It sounded like the Right Wingers here who object to Spanish being allowed for those whose main language is Spanish.

Not a great way to start a new administration claiming to be democratic and respect the rights of all the people. Then there were the 'armed men' sent by Kiev to take over the Crimean Government. They were stopped by Crimea's own security forces, but it caused great concern that this was just the beginning of an attempt by Kiev to take over Crimea after which Crimea appealed to Russia to protect them.

And that was just in the first few days.

And it might help Americans understand why Crimea, feeling threatened, would turn to Russia if they read a little history which goes back before this country even existed. These ties, despite the interim 'disturbances' throughout history, are not easily broken.

I imagine the only way Putin AND Crimea would consider this proposal would be if Ukraine troops were to withdraw from Crimea. And if Crimea were to agree to the proposal.

But it's a start and better than the 'we're going to punish you' rhetoric which no leader of a sovereign state is going to accept. Just as we would not accept it. It's far more preferable to try to talk and respect the concerns of the people, than to emulate the Bush/Cheney crew, threatening a third world war.

[EmilyAnne]

4. People were never going to be forbidden from speaking or doing business in Russian.

That is a misunderstanding of the 2012 law that is no longer going to be repealed.

[sabrina 1]

9. So now it's 'it is NO LONGER going to be repealed'. Why on earth was it EVEN SUGGESTED?

Talk about inciting FEAR in the people of Crimea and other parts of Ukraine. It's TOO LATE to excuse it, it showed the MINDSET of those who are now in control in Kiev. Interesting now that at least we are not hearing 'that's a lie'. Because it was NOT a lie.

The ONLY reason why it was stopped is because some wiser heads intervened seeing the reaction, especially the Crimeans fear of Kiev which drove them to appeal to Russia for help.

[MattSh]

24. They suggested it...

because the mobs on the street demanded it.

[Jenoch]

7. How much of what you wrote is true

and how mush of it is bullshit put out by Putin?

Why should there be no Ukrainian troops in Crimea?

[sabrina 1]

11. Maybe because the people don't want them there? As for what I wrote, unless the world's media

is lying all at the same time, even those who initially called it 'bullshit' are now admitting it but trying to excuse it by saying 'it has been vetoed'. It doesn't matter that wiser heads stopped the repeal of the law protecting the rights of the people to speak their language, what matters is it showed the MINDSET of those who are in power in Kiev and it resulted in driving Crimea to ask Russia for help.

Interesting that you would deny the people Crimea the right to ask for the removal of the troops they now view as foreign, part of what they consider to be an illegitimate government while at the same time claiming to be a supporter of what they people want.

Maybe check out the history of the region before you jump to conclusions about Crimea, Russia and the Ukraine, you might better understand why Crimea went to Russia for help.

[Jenoch]

23. Where do you live?

I live in Minnesota and while there are no no U.S. Army bases here, we do have the Minnrsota Guard and the Minnsota Army National Guard.

Crimea is in Ukraine. That is a fact. Crimea has UkrainexArmy bases there. Crimea is not an outpost of Russia, it is Ukraine with some Russian Naval Bases.

[joshcryer]

17. Chronology of Ukrainian language bans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_bans

It's no wonder it's a touchy issue with Russian imperialism trying to wipe the face of the planet of the language. It reminds me of those defending Gaddafi for his language ban on the Berbers in Libya.

[MattSh]

25. And note at the top...

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2013)

[joshcryer]

26. The citation is Nina Virchenko.

I don't speak Ukrainian or Russian which would enable me to easily see if even 1% of the allegations are true. Unfortunately my efforts are self-referential (ie, a search comes back to the wiki page or Nina's cite). If this was Spanish I would have a much easier time.

[MNBrewer]

14. some info on the issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

[sabrina 1]

16. Thank you, that's pretty much what I said above, it was a foolish and inflamatory thing to do

and caused the people to turn to Russia to protect them. The veto, while the right thing to do, could not erase the intentions of those who proposed and voted for the repeal of the law as perceived by people who were already very nervous about the events in Kiev.

Proposals for repeal and revision[edit]

On 23 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution the Verkhovna Rada voted to repeal the law on regional languages, making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels. The bill repealing the law was voted by 232 deputies out of 450 (226 required for passage).[5] After urgently ordering a working group to draft a replacement law on February 27, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the repeal bill on 28 February. At that time, Russian retained the status of regional language in 13 of the 27 regions of the Ukraine, those in which Russians make up 10% or more of the population.[6]

[joshcryer]

5. He won't accept because the entire justification was a lie.

And he sure would look foolish for trying to convince the world of his lies. The world saw through Bush's lies to invade Iraq and is seeing through Putin's. Even the Russian people are against it.

[Cha]

3. Good one, Obama.

[freshwest]

8. Of course, who expected anything less than the best? n/t

[RobertEarl]

12. I wrote this earlier, to a DUkranian

And we see that the soldiers and their wives, together, have stood up for themselves. It is a great thing the people are doing. And doing it with no violence!!

Let me say this as clearly as I can. We Americans know that with our violence we can go anywhere and do anything we desire. We have had Presidents that lied to us, telling us that they needed to use our force to invade other countries, much as Hitler did. We too can be fooled. So we know. Some of our fathers fought in WW2. We know about war.

Now we don't want war. We don't want violence. We elected President Obama mainly because he held out the promise of using violence only as a last resort. We, and he, Obama, don't see using our force in your country or against Russia as a good idea. But we do stand ready to do what we can short of violence. Surely you do not want violence?

I can not speak for Obama much beyond that, but as for the Russians wanting to stay and keep their Navy in your country, it seems as though that is something to negotiate. And your example of standing up to the Russian soldiers without violence is a great example for us all to move forward in peace.

Remember, our country did invade and occupy with violence two countries, Iraq and Afghanistan, in the last 10 years. You really would not be all that safe depending on our military to solve your problems. But there are many other things we can do to help you, and rest assured, knowing that we Americans do support fully our country helping you in your quest to be free.

This will not be another world war. Putin, while not as bad as our Bush, is a dangerous man, but we think our President Obama and Sec. of State Kerry can deal with him and keep him from causing too much problem. He is no Hitler. Hitler was just flat out crazy. Putin has too much money to lose to go crazy.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4572923

[freshwest]

6. Perfect. Let Putin save face to convince his people he's done his duty and it's a done deal. n/t

[MNBrewer]

10. Russia doesn't even admit that they are Russian Troops.

[sabrina 1]

13. What?? Russia announced that they were sending in extra troops? The whole knows because

they announced it. Where did you get that from?

[MNBrewer]

15. Troops and machinery bear no insignia

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/04/285653335/putin-says-those-arent-russian-forces-in-crimea

http://www.ibtimes.com/russias-use-unmarked-troops-simferopol-crimea-shady-not-illegal-1559425

[pampango]

28. But they contend the troops will remain on the base. They are allowed to defend the base

from within the perimeter of the base as Americans are allowed to do in their foreign bases.

The "additional troops" are not the problem. It's where they are and what they're doing once they are in Crimea that is at question. And if those are not Russian military forces all over Crimea where did they get all the Russian military vehicles and equipment?

[joshcryer]

18. They're Russian mercenaries.

That way if anything goes south Putin can claim that they are contractors who went above their mandate, etc. Perhaps even blame the west / CIA / NSA for infiltrating them and causing them to act ugly.

[MNBrewer]

19. Or unmarked regulars.

[joshcryer]

20. Either way, the excuse works. There's a reason they're masked.

[MNBrewer]

22. I've noticed the masks. Very creepy

[go west young man]

27. Their most likely Spetsnaz. (Russian special forces)

Probably a naval paramilitary brigade assigned to the base. The masks are used in all Russian paramilitary and Spetsnaz police operations to protect the soldiers identity. In the US we have SEALs in Russia they have Spetsnaz. In criminal scenarios the mask keeps the bad guys from establishing the identity of the agents. Here's some examples of their training.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d36_1379109382
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=56f_1393190561

[TheMightyFavog]

21. I hope this can lead to a deal that can defuse this entire situation.

This shit's been scaring the hell out of me since Saturday.