The "ban e-cigs" thing is an excursion into self-parody

[cthulu2016]

It is also indistinguishable from the anti-condom crowd.

The same personality disorders exist on both sides of the political spectrum, but find different arenas of "acceptable" expression.

[shenmue]

1. Fact: not everybody smokes

Most people don't. In the pro-smoking threads, the hate for non-smokers can get so bad, you shouldn't be surprised when you get some of it in return.

Disagreeing with you is not a personality disorder. Sorry. No matter how much you wish it were.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. Fact: e-cigarettes (I don't use them or regular cigarettes anymore)

are not "smoking," so it is pure ridiculousness on the part of nonsmokers who have this problem (it is also one of the reasons I am still loathe to label myself a nonsmoker because so many -not all- of the most vocal are just pure jerks) with someone basically not smoking.

Sorry, no matter how much you wish it was actual smoking that you could be upset about, it's not.

Thanks.

[EvilAL]

9. Some people

are offended just by the sight of people smoking. E-Cigs are the same thing, people see someone blowing water vapour out and equate it with smoking... and get offended. they have no legs to stand on, since the e-cig vapour isn't giving them second hand cancer..

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Yup... and I am one of those who is not swayed

by the secondhand smoke argument to begin with.

[EvilAL]

24. secondhand smoke

is just as toxic as mainsteam smoke I'd figure. But toxicity goes by dosage. Maybe someone working in a bar or something weould inhale too much secondhand smoke in a shift. I never really looked into it all that much. I started vaping on and off and I enjoy it, nobody says fuck all to me when I puff on it in bars or restaurants..

[Bonobo]

47. It may even bother some that people can enjoy something without

the threat of death.

Fucking Fundie mindset.

[unblock]

13. you're hung up on the word "smoking" the objection was always based on *pollution*

not quite specifically pollution in the form of smoke.

if you put toxins, allergens, carcinogens, and migraine triggers into my breathing space by some means that doesn't involve "smoking", that hardly changes my objection.

your argument is facile, it's like pistol-whipping someone to death and then saying, hey, i didn't *shoot* anyone, so what's the problem?



your much better argument is that in at least some cases, e-cigs spew fewer nasty chemicals into the air. that's your strongest argument, not that it doesn't involve "smoke".

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. No I'm hung up on people being idiots as they

drive off in their exhaust spewing hunks of junk with a cup of noxious caffeine in hand. That pretty much sums it up.

[Live and Learn]

53. +1 Exhaust fumes (especially the Co2) are proven killers and

are proven huge contributors of climate change. E_cigs, not so much (or at all)!

Automobiles not only spew these but also are among the biggest cause of violent deaths due to the accidents they cause. By any logic, combustible engines should certainly be outlawed before e_cigs are,

I also wonder when the Nicotine Inhaler will be treated like E_Cigs since it uses much of the same technology even if poorly designed and prohibitively expensive. Then again, given that it is a Big Pharmaceutical product, requires a prescription leading to health care industry profits and increases legislatures pockets through donations and gifts, I guess the answer is never.

[RedRocco]

65. they should ban perfumes in public too then

I have a worse reaction to that than to second hand smoke

[Comrade Grumpy]

12. Hate for non-smokers? You're a hoot.

I'd love to see those posts. What I've seen has pretty much been the opposite of what you describe. Loathing, scorn, and disdain for smokers.

[cthulu2016]

15. Projection and reaction formation.

[Eleanors38]

54. That struck me, too. Now hatred for gun-owners...

[Bluenorthwest]

58. That poster has accused me of 'hating Catholics' because I crticize the Pope's anti gay

teachings and his silence in the face of the Uganda anti gay laws. One trick pony.

[msongs]

3. do you find it odd most people do not want to be poisoned by their neighbors? nt

[cthulu2016]

14. And that is the sort of drama that is indicative of self-parody.

[msongs]

16. not really. most people prefer clean and untainted air. users are the extremists on this matter nt

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Do you use air fresheners in your house?

Clean with ammonia or bleach?

Use perfume?

Scented candles?

Soaps with scents?

Plant fragrant flowers or have cut arrangements?

Surprise! You just tainted your air.

[haikugal]

26. +1000!!!!

Great response. As an vapor I thank you. I'm fed up with this nonsense.

[Skittles]

34. honey, you're a vaper, not a vapor

at least I hope so

[seveneyes]

38. I see no response to your valid example

I wonder if there is ever any tea kettle steam too? The negative, senseless and empty attacks on E cigs can be very telling.

[beevul]

28. Well, ignoring clean air studies which show...

Well, ignoring clean air studies which show that there is little to no interpersonal transmission of anything from vapor from an e-cig...


That indicates that the extremists are people other than who you say they are.

[phleshdef]

30. You've been set straight on this several times and you always run off without facing it.

The science is against all of your assertions regarding e-cigs.

[Sheepshank]

4. 9:10 business applicants that are looking to open an e-cig store here

are not doing it to help people stop smoking. The advertising, layout, decore, packaging, advertising etc is all to lure in non smoking young adults and teens...the nicotine will take care of the repeat customer base.

IF these store were 100% nicotine free (and we've asked), they don't want to do business. It's about addiction and a guarnateed cash flow. Nothing noble and wonderful going on there.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. Would you expect Starbucks or another coffee joint to submit to only caffeine-free?

Or a liquor store to only sell non-alcoholic spirits? (If there is such a thing)

Does it pick your pocket or gore your ox if someone chooses e-cigs that contain nicotine?

For the record, most (probably 99%) of these stores offer nicotine-free e-cig liquids. They also have a variety of strengths for those who want to gradually taper down their nicotine intake.

I'm not seeing the problem here.

[Sheepshank]

33. liquor stores, cigar stores and cake shops

Dont pretend at noble causes and misinform to the same extent.

[Liberal Veteran]

35. Misinform in what way? By saying that e-cigs are less harmful than smoking tobacco?

That's pretty much a given. E-cigs are orders of magnitude healthier than burning tobacco and inhaling the smoke.

I can smell a smoker within 15 feet of me. I can't smell a damn thing around someone vaping.

Are they saying that e-cigs are as healthy as drinking pristine glacial water and breathing mountain air? I kinda doubt it.

Does it really bother you that much if an e-cig supplier says, "Hey, try this instead of smoking!"?

Generally, the people who gravitate toward e-cigs are people who already smoke. Does it offend you so much that someone offers them something that is less harmful than smoking?

Are you offended that organic produce suppliers market their products as healthier than the common mass-produced vegetables/fruits and make a profit off it?

Your objections on profiting by way of marketing something as a healthier option (which it is) seems counterproductive, short-sighted, and inconsistent to me.

[Sheepshank]

36. Lying by omission..carefully crafted language that completely ignores the nicotine content

and the highly addictive nature of the nicotine.

you can push the "we're only here to help" talking points on behalf of these business owners, but there is nothing noble and good going on there...just a guaranteed money stream from an unsuspecting and misinformed young group of fresh consumers.

[Kurska]

40. Nicotine is no more addictive or harmful for you than caffeine.

It does have a shorter biological half-life, so it is eliminated from your system faster.

[Sheepshank]

44. you are saying its easier to quit smoking than quit coffee? really?

[Kurska]

52. Um... no

"no more addictive" does not equal "less addictive".

Reading comprehension for the win?

Watch someone who drinks several cups of coffee try to go a day without and tell me it isn't very addictive addictive.

[Sheepshank]

66. nictoine is NOT equally as addictive as caffeine

it just isn't

[Kurska]

70. And your evidence for this is?

Let me guess.

You drink Caffeine and don't consume nicotine, so obviously caffeine must be better for you.

They are both mild stimulants and highly addictive.

[Liberal Veteran]

42. Who are these imaginary people who don't know that nicotine is addictive?

Unless you are living in Shangri-la or something, pretty much everyone knows nicotine is addictive.

And yes, these people are offering something safer than burning tobacco and inhaling the smoke. So are the makers of Nicorette gum and patches...which by the way, contain that same awful addictive substance as e-cig liquid.

So what? Are you afraid someone might vape and drive? Or operate on you after having a vape? Nicotine is a mild stimulant. Sorta like coffee in that respect.

Golly, e-cig folks make money out of offering someone something safer than the near-certain health problems associated with tobacco use.

And that's "sleazy" in your book?

Maybe zero-tolerance is your thing, but people do all kinds of things that stupid and harmful. Who are you to deprive people of harm-reduction? Are you the keeper of anyone's conscience but you own?

[Sheepshank]

45. whoa there....who said anything about denying access...now you are making up shit

[Bonobo]

48. Where's your goofy outrage over Red Bull? nt

[ProfessorGAC]

75. Secondary Addiction?

Really? You're willing to go out on that limb?

There's this thing called data. You should look into it. Might be illuminating.

Fact: No data exists that nicotine is an airborne secondary addictive agent.

You have problems with nicotine addicts, that's on you. Until you have proof that a vapor inhaled second hand causes an addiction problem, you should admit you're just on a high horse.

Be careful and don't fall off. I wish no harm to anybody, even those who ride on unnecessarily high horses.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Vape shops and lounges are forbidden by US Federal law from suggesting vapor products

can be used to stop smoking. They are sold as a tobacco product. In regular shops, they are sold WITH tobacco products, if you were to place them next to Nicorette gum you would be in violation of the law, same law says the gum or the patch can not be sold next to tobacco products.
Nicotine levels are not secret in e-cigs and vape products, they are chosen, the amount is selected and zero nicotine versions are both available and popular. With analog cigarettes, nicotine levels are unknown, uncontrolled and there is no such thing as a nicotine free cigarette.
No vape shop I have seen pretends a 'noble cause' and none are misinforming. If a shop around you is, call the authorities and have them correct the situation, for that would be in breach of the law.

[Kurska]

71. Personally I vape super low nicotine levels.

That way I can casually puff on it and never get more than a small buzz. I can go a day or two without vaping without too bad of problems.

[seveneyes]

39. What about alcohol free liquor and caffeine free coffee stores?

CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!

[get the red out]

5. What do e-cigs do?

I am uneducated in them. Do they create second hand smoke like regular cigarettes? I am a long-time ex-smoker who is neither pro nor anti-smoking. I don't care what people do so long as it doesn't infringe on others in a negative way.

[A HERETIC I AM]

6. They vaporize a substance.

They are a flavor and/or nicotine delivery system that does not burn tobacco.

What the user inhales is a mist, basically. A vapor - and what is exhaled is the same. It dissipates almost immediately. If you are downwind you MIGHT smell something, but it isn't smoke.

The jury is still out (research wise) on any harm they cause, but there is no doubt they are much, MUCH safer than smoking or any other use of tobacco.

[get the red out]

8. Doesn't sound like anyone should mind?

I would say I have about as much right to tell someone they can't use them as I do to tell someone they can't go to McDonald's then.

[Mariana]

22. I think most people who oppose them

are angry that smokers who use e-cigs are often able to stop smoking painlessly. Many former smokers enjoy using e-cigs even more than they liked smoking. That just enrages some people. They want smokers to suffer, even after they've quit.

[get the red out]

27. You might be right!

I have definitely noticed an "all addiction must be punished" mentality in this country.

[phleshdef]

31. Thats exactly what its about. They feel like smokers are cheating the death...

...that some of these folks feel like they so deserved.

[GoneOffShore]

41. From today's Here and Now - According to

Brian King, senior adviser to the Office on Smoking and Health at the Centers for Disease Control, the argument that it they help people quit is, so far, strictly anecdotal.
The patch is a far better delivery system for nicotine.
The big problem is the marketing of these e-cigs (personal nicotine delivery systems) and how it may - though it hasn't yet been proven - lead us to far more young people smoking.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/03/05/la-e-cigarettes

And can you point to anyone you know, or anyone on DU, who wants smokers to suffer?
Really?
That's an amazing statement that leaves me shaking my head.

[Demo_Chris]

67. Anecdotal does not mean invalid, just untested. The truth in the claim is self evident...

E-cigs allow users to get their nicotine on an as-needed level (often automatically resulting in a nic reduction, as many smokers got the nic they crave after only a few puffs, but then continue to smoke the cigarette they are holding). Further, e-cigs provide something other nicotine replacement methods do not: the physical action and a similar sensation to smoking.

I smoked for twenty-five years. Four months ago I quit using E-cigs. I have been lowering the nicotine level in my juice with every repurchase, and should be completely nicotine free in another four months or so. Already my cough is gone, I can smell things and taste my food, I no longer reek, and I no longer have non-smokers looking down their noses at me. More, instead of spending five to seven bucks a day to kill myself, I am spending about fifteen dollars a month or less. For a poor man like me that's still too much, and proves I am irresponsible and deserving of my fate, but there it is.

[GoneOffShore]

68. I drink wine and smoke or eat weed.

So I guess I'm deserving of my fate as well.

Glad to hear you're finally beating the nicotine.

I've never understood that whole, you did this to yourself so you deserve what ever happens to you thing.

[Demo_Chris]

69. Thanks.

[displacedtexan]

74. I've had the same experience...

...and I smoked longer than you did before switching to the ecig. I love that there's no smell and that it's super inexpensive. I tried the patch, but I need the psychological physical cig-shaped pen. At least for the present.

As for the "dangers" of secondhand vapor: when will people realize that nicotine gum (which is exhaled in closed spaces like airplanes, trains, buses & cars) is just as "dangerous" as vapor pens?

Ignorance can be fixed. An angry tobacco industry is forever. Who else would invest so much money to kill this new nicotine delivery device?

[Bonobo]

49. I think you are right for many of them. It's fucking sick.

Many of us have found a tremendous hope in e-cigs. It's as if these fuckers don't care.

[Eleanors38]

55. Most prohibitionists desire punishing others. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

76. And We Have a Winner!!!!!!

That's what this is about. Anyone on this thread that pretends to present anecdotal information otherwise is rationalize a control problem.

And, BTW, I DON'T USE E-CIGS!

Just making a point.

[Kurska]

72. Yup, I like E-cigs more than I ever liked smoking.

E-cigs are not harsh and have fantastic fruit flavors. I'm in total control of how much nicotine I'm consuming. Smoking makes me feel dirty, it makes my breath and my clothes stink.

I'm in engaged in very strenuous and exhausting research. Nicotine has been proven to help improve your cognitive processes (it is a choline agonist). I use it as a aid to get through the day the same way people use coffee.

Some people just hate nicotine when they really should hate cigarettes.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. There is no smoke at all. Vapor with flavor and/or nicotine. Battery operated.

Smoke free. Free of smoke. Smokeless.

[get the red out]

11. Thanks

I hadn't paid enough attention to know! They don't sound intrusive on others, so I don't understand people being upset about them?

[Liberal Veteran]

21. They are upset because it looks similar to smoking and/or it comes in flavors they don't approve of.

Such as candy apple or caramel.

And of course, they are upset that someone might be addicted to nicotine (I assume they believe that nicotine addicts are crazed madmen robbing and killing people for their next fix.)

[HappyMe]

23. Most people that I know that use them

take 2 puffs and put it away.

It's not even close to the same thing as a burning cigarette.

[musiclawyer]

17. I want to see how they wrote the law

Because being experienced with lawmakers they probably only banned e cigs and used nicotine delivery system language. What are they going to do 5 years from now when everyone and their mom is using vapor pens to get high recreationally and medicinally ? They are the same thing

Vapor pens are still of mediocre quality. They are not made well. They break. Battery life is short. But the next generation of vapor pens will make big ole volcanos and vapor bros stationary vaporizers obsolete

[LiberalAndProud]

25. Agreed.

Now I'm going to trash this thread. It's just not worth it.

[Jasana]

29. Once upon a time...

I worked with a woman who told me I shouldn't wear perfume because she didn't like the smell of it.

In another workplace, a boss tried to forbid me from eating garlic or onion bagels because she didn't like the smell in the lunch room. She also tried to forbid another worker from warming her fish plates up in the microwave. Asshats are everywhere and they will try to get their way because they think they are righteous. If the e-vapor hurts no one, shut your mouth and go away.

Note: You here is used in general and not at anybody in this thread.

[ZombieHorde]

32. Without science to back it up,

the vapor bans seem silly to me. I would compare it to homeopathic medicine or anti-vaccination rhetoric.

[Blecht]

37. I'm an ex-smoker who is now extremely sensitive to smoke

And I love those things! (I don't use them -- I love it when others use them!) No more smoke!

Opposition to e-cigs is total idiocy. (Yes, if you are opposed to e-cigs anywhere it is ok for people to put other things in their mouths, you are an idiot.)

[Bandit]

43. I look at it like the helmet laws or seat belt laws

Laws that protect you from yourself.

[MindPilot]

62. Those laws are not there to protect you from yourself

They are there to protect the insurance company from you.

Nobody over at State Farm (except maybe your agent who knows you personally) gives a rat's ass that you took a trip through the windshield; they don't want to have to pay for it.

[Bandit]

63. Same thing applies to putting poison in your system.

We the people do not want to pay for it.

[ButterflyBlood]

46. Wait are there seriously people that want to ban them?

Why? All they do is give smokers a much safer alternative and method to help quit.

Really the only people at all who would benefit from banning e-cigs is Big Tobacco who'd keep raking in the dollars from their addicted consumer base.

[Mariana]

50. I think it's mostly about hating smokers.

They don't want smokers to have a much safer alternative, if that alternative doesn't make the smokers miserable. People who use e-cigs enjoy them, and that drives certain people absolutely bugshit.

With the lawmakers themselves, the ones who passed this idiotic law, they're probably being nudged in that direction by Big Tobacco.

[Not Sure]

51. I just don't like the smell of some of the vapors

I am often transported in vans as part of my job, many times over long distances with trips taking three or more hours. I used to smoke so I know how hard a road trip is without a smoke. Since these e-cigs aren't technically "smoking" people use them in confined spaces such as the crew vans I ride in. If it doesn't stink, I don't mind. But some of the flavors these things come in are horrible to my nose. The worst time I was about two hours into a trip thinking "this van has the worst potpourri freshener I've ever smelled in my life!" only to discover the driver was puffing away continuously on his e-cig.

[Eleanors38]

56. Because the issue isn't "secondhand smoke:" The issue is

Standard, orthodox prohibition.

It has always been about tobacco prohibition; the pants-filling panic about vaping serves to illustrate quite clearly the real aims regarding tobacco.

[LWolf]

57. I haven't called for banning them.

I haven't been following any conversations about banning them, or promoting them.

I'm anti-smoking. My mother was a smoker until her 40s. I grew up in second hand smoke. My first husband was an addict to the point that he'd steal his kids' allowance to buy the things when he ran out before payday, tearing apart the house to find their change.

My mom has copd. My first husband died of cancer at the age of 45. Long after I divorced him; I've lived without second hand smoke for 25 years now.

e-cigs that deliver nicotine without smoke is great for those who already smoke.

They are also a way to make cigarettes "cool" again and hook whole new generations on nicotine to keep the industry happy. I see that as a problem.

So while I haven't called for "banning" them, I also don't whole-heartedly support them. I can argue both sides all day, but don't really see the need to at this point.

I do find the concept of nicotine addiction as "acceptable expression" ludicrous. It's an addiction like any other, except that it's harder to kick than most.

[MindPilot]

60. Cold weather must make the anti-vape heads explode.

All those people walking around exhaling visible vapor! Polluters!

Studies have shown that exhaled vapor contains CO2, a known greenhouse gas, microscopic bits of dead human tissue, small droplets of mucus, phlegm and even viruses and germs...some of which are CONTAGIOUS!!1!1

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!11!1

Please sign the petition to ban breathing in public, sponsored by the Association of Prudes, Busybodies and Hall Monitors.

[gollygee]

61. I'm trying to figure out what the reasoning is for wanting them banned

Can you even tell if you're around someone using one unless you see it?

Maybe it's because whatever is involved comes in flavors that might appeal to kids? But I assume you have to be 18 to buy it. I haven't seen any advertisements. If they were advertised in a way that looked to be marketing to kids (think Joe Camel) I would be concerned about that.

[Springslips]

64. There is none.

They are vile, toxic control freaks. The only happiness they have in life is controlling others.

[Kurska]

73. They are nearly or often completely scent less

The vapor disappears almost immediately after being exhaled. Someone could do it for hours in the cubicle next to you and you'd have no idea.

Every store I know checks I.D's religious. They keep a data base of all their active customers. Anyone caught buying for a minor is given a life ban.

[Autumn]

77. A ban on e cigs would be a boon for big tobacco. They are losing money

A 2 oz. bottle of juice is 8 dollars, a carton of cigarettes is at least 35 dollars. A carton of cigarettes lasts me about 9 days. I've been using the same bottle of juice since the last day of January and I still have a couple of fills left in that bottle. It's acceptable to me, fuck what anyone else thinks. No one is forcing them to vape.

[SirRevolutionary]

78. One of the things I love most about vapes...

is they cause "anti's" heads to explode while desperately searching for reasons to ban them. It's like a small army of Puritans running around clutching pearls bemoaning the imaginary damage caused by water vapor. Next, they'll tell people we can't afford the water because there are droughts in California, so no more vapes for you.

I'm happy to see the logical, well thought out OPs and comments like this that shine a light on the bias and stupidity of the "ban everything" crowd.