It took 5 days to find AF447 that crashed on its flight path. MH370 may be off its path.

[uppityperson]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/11/world/asia/malaysia-missing-jet.html

(clip)
So far there is only speculation about what happened to the missing flight, which was headed to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur. But Arnie Reiner, a retired captain with US Airways and the former chief accident investigator at Pan Am, noted, “If they somehow got turned around or went off course when the thing was going down, it could be 90 or 100 miles away from where the flight data disappeared.”

It is not yet known whether the Malaysian plane deviated from its planned flight path, or how long the pilots could still fly the aircraft after the last reported contact. Assuming that the plane remained in powered flight or a controlled glide, the potential search area would have to be wide and long, covering thousands of square miles. After more than two days of fruitless search, Malaysian officials expanded the search area on Monday.
(clip)

But extended searches are sometimes needed. When Air France Flight 447 vanished over the Atlantic in June 2009, it took five days to find any wreckage, and almost two years to find the black boxes. Similarly, the cockpit data recorder from a South African Airways Boeing 747 that went down in November 1987 was not located until January 1989. It revealed that the plane crashed because of a fire onboard, not because of an act of terrorism, so no further search was conducted for the flight data recorder, the other black box.

Another rule of thumb for pilots may shed light on why no distress signal was heard from the Malaysia Airlines flight. Pilots have a mantra for setting priorities in an emergency: Aviate, navigate, communicate. The first priority is to fly the airplane. Telling air traffic controllers on the ground what is going on comes third, since doing so is unlikely to instantly yield any help with the crisis in the cockpit, whatever it is....(more)

[Damansarajaya]

1. But with the GPS system we have now,

it's inconceivable that someone somewhere wouldn't know where they were at all times.

Heck, a cell phone with a GPS device on it could have located their position within a few feet at any moment during the flight.

[uppityperson]

2. What cell towers were there to locate off of there? None. How many under the ocean? None

Inconceivable?

[Glassunion]

3. +1

[Damansarajaya]

4. GPS uses satellites, not cell towers.

The S in GPS stands for Satellites.

Also, FYI:

Technically, how does this even work? I lose cell signals on my phone above 10,000 feet.
A. The airlines would fit a device called a picocell to the bottom of a plane. The device acts like a giant booster for cellular signals. Picocells are essentially tiny cellular base stations, much like your Wi-Fi hotspot at home, which typically cover relatively small areas, like an airplane.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/questions-and-answers-to-cell-phones-on-planes/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

My response was not a challenge to your OP; it was an observation that avionics these days should totally have this covered.

[uppityperson]

5. I was thinking about positioning, not nec "GPS tm". ETA "airplane mode" means gps is off.

Last edited Tue Mar 11, 2014, 01:55 AM - Edit history (2)

In which case cell towers are needed. Are phones that are turned off or in "airplane mode" still capable of being tracked like that? How long is data stored, meaning I can see where my ipad is right now, how long in the future would I be able to track where it was? Again, what about "airplane mode"?

I wonder how many planes are fitted to allow cell phone conversations.

ETA to show what I found doing research.
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1355

iOS: Understanding airplane mode
Airplane mode disables the wireless features of your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch to comply with airline regulations.

When you enable airplane mode from the Settings screen, an airplane icon () appears in the status bar at the top of the screen and the following wireless connections and services are turned off:

Cellular (voice and data)
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth
GPS
Location services
If allowed by the aircraft operator and applicable laws and regulations, you can re-enable Wi-Fi and Bluetooth while in airplane mode:

Wi-Fi: While airplane mode is on, tap Settings > Wi-Fi, then turn Wi-Fi on and choose a Wi-Fi network.
Bluetooth: While airplane mode is on, tap Settings > Bluetooth, then turn Bluetooth on.

Also reading that part of the problem with cell phones and gps while flying is you are moving too fast for the data to keep up, to be crunched to figure out where you are. Sometimes there is a problem while driving and flying is way faster.

So, it depends on a number of factors whether or not someone in a flight can tell accurately where they are using their phone's gps.

As to whether or not someone not on the flight can see where they WERE is another question that I do not see a positive answer for.

[uppityperson]

6. I did some research, added more to my other reply to you about airplanes, cellphones, gps

[uppityperson]

15. The S stands for system, NOT satellitw. Global Positioning System

I had bad brain fog yesterday, today not. So, let's start over with what GPS stands for.

[TexasProgresive]

7. Flight Management System

This is an integrated system incorporating most avionics systems into on system. I know this is a Wiki citation but it looks accurate.

A flight management system (FMS) is a fundamental component of a modern airliner's avionics. An FMS is a specialized computer system that automates a wide variety of in-flight tasks, reducing the workload on the flight crew to the point that modern civilian aircraft no longer carry flight engineers or navigators. A primary function is in-flight management of the flight plan. Using various sensors (such as GPS and INS often backed up by radionavigation) to determine the aircraft's position, the FMS can guide the aircraft along the flight plan. From the cockpit, the FMS is normally controlled through a Control Display Unit (CDU) which incorporates a small screen and keyboard or touchscreen. The FMS sends the flight plan for display to the Electronic Flight Instrument System (EFIS), Navigation Display (ND), or Multifunction Display (MFD).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_management_system

GPS is satellite based, Inertial Navigation System is self contained determining aircraft position and velocity using accelerometers and gyroscopes and radionavigation would use ground and/or ship based radio beacons.

Unless there was a catastrophic breakdown of the on board avionics the crew knew their position to a few meters.

[uppityperson]

8. We are looking at 2 things here.

1. Did the flight crew know where they were? Most likely yes in which case the question turns to what were they doing, what was occupying their energies so they could not yell help and/or transmit their location. Their First responsibility was trying to take care of the problem so they could keep flying. Lesser one was call for help.

2. Can any of the cell phones on board be tracked using gps search thingie (highly technical jargon term)? This is what I've seen discussed and thought this was about, what that DUer meant. And I meant in my replies.

But, both are good discussions.

[TexasProgresive]

10. As to tracking cell phones on the plane

If the plane was over water there is likely no cell service because there are no cell sites available. And even if all the phones were on the aluminum skin of the plane is a very good shield so I seriously doubt the plane could be tracked using cell records.

We have no knowledge of what happened to the plane. One scenario is an on board bomb. If that was the case the plane could've gone down without time for any signal of being in trouble or location. We can't know anything until the plane is located and studied.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

9. Every cell phone on the plane knew where it was ...

... and if the electrical system on the plane was working, the crew knew too.

But if it's out of cell- or other- communication range, then nobody outside the plane knew where they were.

As soon as they find the phones and analyzed the stored GPS data, they'll know where the phones are.

[uppityperson]

11. That was what I was wondering and thinking, that the phones knew where they were/are, but outside

them? Probably not.

[Damansarajaya]

12. Okay, fine, but my point was simply,

and forgive me for not making this plainer, that if individual passengers could access the GPS grid with something as simple as a cell phone, one would think that sophisticated airline electronics would be far more able to send out the location of the aircraft all along its flight path to ground controllers.

Apparently, such devices exist but are expensive, and since planes so rarely drop out of the sky, a lot of aircraft aren't equipped with it--that's what I thought I heard on the news anyway.

ON EDIT:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/malaysia-air

"In an era when we’ve all got GPS in our pockets, OnStar in our cars and the NSA tracking anyone, anywhere, it is still possible–although rare–for an airliner to seemingly vanish."

[uppityperson]

14. It does seem odd, that they do not track jets more accurately while they are flying

I am thinking about air traffic controllers that have to keep planes apart. Even if the chance of hitting another airliner whihle crossing the ocean is tiny, still, it is odd that someone would not know eaxctly where every flying jet like that is at all times. Even between countries and over open ocean.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. I can understand a plane being out of radio or cell range ...

but it seems like the "dark" areas could be covered by satellite phone technology, for not a huge investment.

Before this, I'd have guessed that aircraft were always in communication with some air control facility.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. It took over 30 years to locate Gus Grissom's lost Mercury space capsule.

Granted, a jetliner is much larger than a space capsule, but the fact remains that finding sunken debris in deep water is easier said than done.

[B2G]

17. It was under 13,000 feet of water

The waters surrounding Malaysia are nowhere near that depth.