In the US, if we see a female in a burka, without knowing anything about her,

[pnwmom]

Last edited Thu Mar 13, 2014, 07:50 PM - Edit history (2)

without knowing her age, whether she can speak English, whether she understands her rights, or anything else -- we assume she's wearing it out of choice.

Why should we?

She could be Elizabeth Smart, for all we know. Or she could be an Iranian version of Elizabeth Smart, except not speaking English.

How would we know?

Why is the default assumption here that a completely veiled woman is making a free choice -- but that isn't the default position in Turkey or France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

The French ban on face covering (French: Loi interdisant la dissimulation du visage dans l'espace public, "Act prohibiting concealment of the face in public space&quot is an act of parliament passed by the Senate of France on 14 September 2010, resulting in the ban on the wearing of face-covering headgear, including masks, helmets, balaclava, niqābs and other veils covering the face in public places, except under specified circumstances.[1] The ban also applies to the burqa, a full-body covering, if it covers the face. The bill had previously been passed by the National Assembly of France on 13 July 2010.[2]

The key argument supporting this proposal is that face-coverings prevent the clear identification of a person, which is both a security risk, and a social hindrance within a society which relies on facial recognition and expression in communication. The key argument against the ban is that it encroaches on individual freedoms.[3]

As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks. Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn.[4] The law applies to all citizens, including men and non-Muslims, who may not cover their face in public except where specifically provided by law (such as motor-bike riders and safety workers) and during established occasional events (such as some carnivals). The law imposes a fine of up to €150, and/or participation in citizenship education, for those who violate the law.[5][6] The bill also penalises, with a fine of €30,000 and one year in prison, anyone who forces (by violence, threats or by abuse of power) another to wear face coverings; these penalties may be doubled if the victim is under the age of 18.[1][5][7]

[Rex]

1. Because we are supposedly the 'land of the free'. As in free to make choices.

And we just assume people do things by choice in America.

[Chemisse]

2. I have a different prejudice.

If I see a woman in a burka, I assume she is repressed due to cultural and religious norms, and wears it because the men in her life require her to do so.

I saw a couple in the supermarket a few weeks ago, a man and a woman in a burka, and I responded by feeling angry at the man for treating her like a dog.

In fact, she may be doing in by free choice (or at least make the choice to observe a religion that mandates that she is fully covered). Still, it makes me livid.

[Lost_Count]

3. You are half right...

It isn't only men who enforce that standard on women. They self enforce within their group as well.

[pnwmom]

8. I had the same sick feeling the first time I saw this, many years ago.

We were all in the misses department at Sears, and the man was doing all the talking to the clerk behind the counter, while his sons tossed a basketball around (narrowly missing shoppers) and his wife stood like a shadow behind him.

[upaloopa]

4. If I saw a woman in a burka I'd think there

is a woman in a burka. I wonder why she wears it.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I pay about as much attention to it as I do when I see a nun wearing a traditional habit.

I don't automatically assume force is involved.

[pnwmom]

9. Nuns in habits don't have their faces covered, much less netting over the eyes.

Too bad more people weren't suspicious of Elizabeth Smart's get-up.

[Liberal Veteran]

16. No, but it can be a cultural/religious thing about modest dress.

The point that you missed, is that a person's reasons for wearing these types of clothing is that one can make NO assumptions, at least in the United States.

It could be anything from a religious belief (in the case of nuns, mostly the old-school) to someone who lived most of their life in a country where this was how women dressed. To some, wearing western-style clothing makes them as uncomfortable as you would be wearing a string bikini while shopping or going topless to a restaurant.

What is one to do, walk up to anyone wearing something that doesn't conform to our own familiar clothing and ask them why they wear it?

[pnwmom]

19. There's a difference between modest dress and burkas with net over the eyes.

Burkas interfere with vision (peripheral vision is also impaired) and walking and running (which depends on good vision). It can actually be a health issue, unlike "modest dress." Women in countries that enforce burkas can't get enough sun or outdoor exercise.

Obviously, we can't ask everyone wearing a burka (or an Elizabeth Smart get-up) why they are doing so. But I don't assume they are doing it out of free choice. I think France and Turkey are right to assume women are not doing this out of choice; which is why they've been banned in public places.

[CJCRANE]

25. How many have you seen in burkas?

I've met lots of muslim women (students from Saudi Arabia etc) but never met one in a burka.

[handmade34]

34. just

passed and said hello to a woman dressed in a burqa a few hours ago...

I am temporarily renting an apartment from a Muslim couple and the wife wears a hijab most of the time... she came to the door yesterday in tight leggings and sweater... I had to smile, she was so hip and cute

[CJCRANE]

36. Fair enough. I've never seen a burka. But have seen headscarf and veil with the eyes showing.

In fact you can get to recognize someone just from their height and eyes!

[pnwmom]

123. A woman couldn't recognize her own sister on the street. They wouldn't be close enough

to see each other's eyes.

Try to imagine how isolating that would be. And why the men in the culture would want women to be that isolated.

[Demobrat]

85. I see women in burkas occasionally.

I do wonder why they are wearing them, whether it's by choice or something else.

[pnwmom]

103. Only a few. None of the Muslim women I know support wearing burkas.

There are many women here from Iran, Pakistan, and India. They are highly educated and not oppressed. Some of them dress "modestly." So do I, for that matter. But that is light years away from the hot, oxygen-deprived, vision-disturbed dress provided by a burqa.

The very first time I saw a woman in a burqa was in the misses department at Sears. The husband was the only one talking to the sales clerk. She was just a shadow behind him.

[Scootaloo]

102. Any other outfits you think ought to be under state control?

Sorry, but telling someone they are forbidden from wearing a getup is no different from telling them that they must wear it.

If women are being forced to wear these outfits, then the problem isn't the clothing, it's the asshole coercing her.

Turkey banned the outfit for the same reason the fez was banned there - to "look western." France banned it because France is an Islamophobic shithole, where less than 700 women in the entire country wearing the thing, instilled a national panic about "Islamization" and "Eurabia."

[leftynyc]

115. Plenty of religions require modest dress

without turning the woman into a ghost with no voice. I'm with the poster who finds them offensive and it also makes me angry. You can look at a country like Egypt or Syria. Women rarely covered their faces until the extremists took over. So when they were freer, they didn't cover.

[cali]

12. few nuns these days wear traditional habits.

and usually the ones that do aren't 'out in the world nuns'.

[Liberal Veteran]

21. Few women in my area wear hijabs, al-amiras, niqabs or burkas either.

I am more likely to see Hutterite women wearing plain dresses and head scarves than any of those, but I'd say a week doesn't go by that I don't see a nun wearing a more traditional habit out in the public (of course living a couple of miles from a convent might explain that).

I don't really give it a lot of thought other than "they probably have their own reasons".

[CJCRANE]

5. The Burka is Afghani. I thought the headscarf was banned in Turkey for a long time

but women are now choosing to rebel against that and wear them.

And France has a history of violent colonialism in North Africa which may affect how North Africans choose to cling to their culture.

I teach a lot of overseas students including arab (and persian, kurdish etc.) muslim women who are all individuals, they are all pretty independent and very determined to get an education. I think it's a mistake to stereotype someone if you don't know their origin or their circumstances.

[idendoit]

7. Because it's not your business? That's the idea of a burka.

[pnwmom]

10. Would Elizabeth Smart not have been our business, either?

Isn't it our business when people are enslaved?

How do we know that these women -- or girls -- are freely choosing to hide themselves?

It sure makes this easier for the oppressors.

[idendoit]

15. Why do you assume they are not?

[pnwmom]

17. Your question doesn't make sense, given the context.

They are not what?

[idendoit]

50. Why would you assume...

.. that a woman would not wear a burka of her own free will or that you would have known that Smart was in distress if you passed her on the street?

[pnwmom]

59. I'm not assuming either one.

I'm asking why as a society we assume that women covered from head to toe are doing it voluntarily. Which we do.

And I certainly would NOT have known Smart was in distress; that's the problem. However, if her face had been exposed, her expression might have given some hint of her distress.

People are social beings, and being able to interpret facial expressions is part of how we communicate.

Women in burkas aren't even able to recognize their friends or sisters on the street. Their peripheral vision is blocked and they can't walk fast or they might trip. Think about how isolating that would be.

[idendoit]

79. How do you presume to speak for society as a whole?

You said that her expression, if visible, might have given some hint of distress. No one noticed the distress on my face for a long time while I was being abused. People see what they want. Facial expressions aren't a necessary part of communicating. This guy says it as well as anyone:.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/nothing_enlightened_about_burka_bashing/14046#.UyJf2IV2PIU

[pnwmom]

80. I'm not speaking for society as a whole. Our laws do that

and they allow burkas to be worn in public, unlike in Turkey (a largely Muslim country) and France.

Facial expressions are not a "necessary" part of communicating, but they are extremely useful. Anyone who has worked with autistic children will tell you that.

I'm very sorry you were abused and no one noticed. But if Elizabeth Smart hadn't been forced to wear a face covering, she would have been recognized much earlier.

[CJCRANE]

30. Most of the women who are kidnapped don't wear burkas.

Does that mean we should suspect every woman normal clothing is a victim?

You are dismissing the agency of real human beings. Why don't you talk to some muslim women and find out about them as the "without knowing anything" part of your title is very obvious.

[pnwmom]

31. I want to know why you are assuming these women -- and girls -- are acting freely.

I don't think we can assume either way -- and yet we are, as a society, assuming that they are choosing to live like shadows of the men in their family. Why do we assume that? Is it a reasonable assumption?

[CJCRANE]

32. Because I have met lots of muslim women. They are normal human beings. nt

[pnwmom]

41. Do you know lots of women who wear burkas whenever they're in public?

I have known lots of Muslim women, but I've only seen a few in public wearing burkas.

You do realize, don't you, that nothing in the Muslim religion requires them to wear burkas? That they are a cultural, not a religious, artifact?

[CJCRANE]

45. I've never seen a burka but I've met lots of veiled Saudis with just their eyes showing.

The burka is Afghani which is a different culture. Obviously Afghanistan is a very poor country so it does it have its issues but I don't know any Afghanis.

But then you have the gulf arab countries, Iran and the North African countries all of which have different cultures.

Most of them wear headscarves, some of them wear veils and a few go without. I've never had any indication that it's anything other than a choice.

However, another point I wanted to make is about reverse psychology. If you tell muslim women you CAN'T wear this piece of clothing then MORE of them will wear it. It's just human nature. If you attack someon's culture that will just make them cling to it even more.

[FarCenter]

11. She is a victim of psychological abuse

[11 Bravo]

13. So what should we do? Rip it off of her body and shout, "You're FREE, sister"?

It is an issue which necessitates both nuance and cultural sensitivity. (Two proclivities which are often lacking on this forum.)

[pnwmom]

20. We could have a law similar to France's. nt

[Glassunion]

27. We cannot have a law that violates the First Amendment.

Some women (there is no statistic) do indeed wear them because they choose to. Whether they are in the minority or not, is unknown and does not matter, as the First Amendment would protect the minority especially.

Primarily the law in France was established as a anti-terrorism law, and to me oozes with anti-Muslim sentiment.

[pnwmom]

40. There are such laws in several states, with no religious exceptions.

Last edited Thu Mar 13, 2014, 10:42 PM - Edit history (2)

Some of them were written in response to the activities of the KKK.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

States with laws prohibiting masks and face coverings

GEORGIA Code Title 16 - Crimes and Offenses, A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so.

(b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies.

NEW YORK Penal Law 240.35 (4):
Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; (National Lawyers Guild NYC Chapter paper on the anti-mask law)
NORTH CAROLINA
While the following sections were enacted primarily as a result of KKK activities, it has been enforced against people wearing other types of masks, such as dust masks and team mascot masks.
§14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)
§14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

VIRGINIA Section 18.2-422: 
Prohibition of wearing of masks in certain places; exceptions.
It shall be unlawful for any person over sixteen years of age while wearing any mask, hood or other device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, to be or appear in any public place, or upon any private property in this Commonwealth without first having obtained from the owner or tenant thereof consent to do so in writing. However, the provisions of this section shall not apply to persons (i) wearing traditional holiday costumes; (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons; (iii) engaged in any bona fide theatrical production or masquerade ball; or (iv) wearing a mask, hood or other device for bona fide medical reasons upon the advice of a licensed physician or osteopath and carrying on his person an affidavit from the physician or osteopath specifying the medical necessity for wearing the device and the date on which the wearing of the device will no longer be necessary and providing a brief description of the device. The violation of any provisions of this section shall constitute a Class 6 felony.

[jberryhill]

83. You don't seem to understand how law works

These statutes don't have "religious exceptions" because they don't need to put that into a statute. You will not obtain a conviction against someone who is doing it for a religious reason. That is because the Constitution trumps a state statute.

[pnwmom]

87. You are ignoring the Georgia Supreme Court decision.

Was it overturned by the US Supreme Court?

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/06/us/georgia-supreme-court-reinstates-ban-on-wearing-of-klan-masks.html

The State of Georgia has the right to ban the wearing of hoods and masks by the Ku Klux Klan, the Georgia Supreme Court ruled today.

The 6-to-1 decision overturned a lower court ruling that struck down the state's 39-year-old anti-mask law last May. In that ruling, Judge Howard E. Cook of Gwinnett County State Court called the Klan "a persecuted group" whose members' First Amendment rights to free speech might depend on anonymity. He upheld a challenge to the law by Shade Miller Jr., a member of the Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

But the Georgia Supreme Court held today that the law does not infringe on the Klan's rights to free speech and free association and that instead the Klan's history of anonymous violence makes the mask a form of intimidation subject to government control.

"The state interests furthered by the Anti-Mask Act lie at the very heart of the realm of legitimate governmental activity," Chief Justice Harold G. Clarke wrote for the majority.

SNIP

[jberryhill]

91. You should read the actual decision

Indeed, you should read what you quoted:

"instead the Klan's history of anonymous violence makes the mask a form of intimidation subject to government control."

The Klan was itself the reason for that law.

Like I said, you don't seem to understand how this works.

[pnwmom]

92. I would argue that the burqa is a form of oppression that should be subject

to government control.

But I realize I'm in the minority.

[jberryhill]

97. There should be more laws controlling and penalizing women

It's the same either way.

How long do you want to jail them?

Or do you just want to fine them?

What specific penalty do you want to exact upon these women?

[Glassunion]

90. It's not so black and white.

For example GA. It is there with no religious exemption, however it is 100% legal to wear a burqa. You could probably be fined or arrested. However higher courts in the state have ruled that mask wearing without provoking a reasonable apprehension of intimidation, threats or violence, the law would violate a person's First Amendment rights.

So a klan hood is illegal, but a burqa or Guy Fawkes mask is perfectly legal.

[11 Bravo]

29. So that even those women who choose to wear the garb would be forbidden to do so?

Like I said, nuance and cultural sensitivity ... which is why the issue ain't going to be decided here.

[Texasgal]

37. Are you being snide

or is this comment real? Sorry for asking but I cannot tell.

[LanternWaste]

14. All things being equal, I don't look with suspicion upon the dress of other cultures or religions

All things being equal, I don't look with suspicion upon the dress of other cultures or religions, nor do I apply one example (i.e, Elizabeth Smart) onto the whole until or unless that example becomes a standard rather than an aberration (else, dicto simpliciter).

[Le Taz Hot]

18. So, now, all veiled women should be

suspected of being a victim? Huh?

[pnwmom]

22. Is that what I said? No.

I asked why we are assuming, as a culture, that all the women wearing those things are doing it out of free choice.

Is that likely to be true? And what about the cases when it's not?

[Niceguy1]

82. absent of any evidence otherwise

There is no other reasonable course than to assume it is of her own free will

[leftynyc]

122. How about when you look

how the women dressed in countries before the extremists took over - Afghanistan, Egypt, Syria - women managed to dress modestly, as required by their religion - without turning into ghosts. It was only when the extremists took over that covering their faces became a REQUIREMENT by law (as written by men). That's why I fucking hate those things. Choice my ass.

[Niceguy1]

129. here in the US it is different

And if she chooses to and makes her feel good then we should respect her autonomy.

[leftynyc]

130. I don't think it's so different

As I've stated before, I have no beef with head coverings or modest dress - when you start covering your face, that's coming from a dark and dangerous place.

[randome]

132. It isn't different. It's culture.

Should we adopt a Libertarian mindset and pretend not to see problems, telling ourselves, "If she wants freedom, she has to earn it!"

Or should we at the very least discourage submissive behavior/clothing?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[leftynyc]

131. Another banner day for the women

taken over by religious fanatics - this time in Iraq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/14/iraq-child-marriage-bill_n_4962247.html

snip
BAGHDAD (AP) — A contentious draft law being considered in Iraq could open the door to girls as young as nine getting married and would require wives to submit to sex on their husband's whim, provoking outrage from rights activists and many Iraqis who see it as a step backward for women's rights.

[Lizzie Poppet]

23. I admit I react negatively to the burqa.

It's an instinctual rejection response, and I'd never think of communicating it to the woman wearing it (none of my damn business...). But I can't deny that it occurs...regardless of whether I have any clue about how truly voluntary her wearing it actually is. I don't think it's so much a case of assuming she's being coerced as it is that my thoughts immediately move to the fact that there are such women, that there is plenty of such coercion in the world, even if she's not part of it.

[Arugula Latte]

47. Those are my thoughts, too.

I always think: "Well, if she is 'choosing' to do it, what has she gone through and how has she been raised and how is she being treated by the males in her family that this awful choice is her best option?

[CJCRANE]

24. Is it your job to make a choice for other women?

How many muslim women do you know? Have you asked them why they wear their traditional dress?

FWIW I don't particularly agree with that style of dress but I've met lots of muslim women, all of of whom were normal human beings and many of whom are proud of the way they dress.

[penultimate]

26. I find this to be a tough one

but I can't find any justifiable reason for me to tell others what they can and cannot wear. Assuming the woman is in the US or a European country, then she has the legal right to say no. It's unfortunate that her beliefs/culture/religion/whatever puts such horrible restrictions on her, but it would be just as horrible if the state came in and put other restrictions on her. That being said, I have no problem with any sort of group or organizations that specialize in helping women in such situation remove themselves if that's what they desire. Nor so I have issues with laws that restrict people from wearing burqas in official IDs, various jobs/situations, or in certain locations (banks, etc..)

[ZombieHorde]

28. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I find this attitude especially useful when driving.

[uppityperson]

33. When I saw a woman in a burqa in the USA I noticed. It caught my attention for sure. I wondered

about her. Who she was. Why she wore this. Why the men she was with were able to wear shorts and t-shirts and she was fully covered with a mask on.

I still wonder who she was and why she wore it.

I did not assume it was out of free choice as I have learned to not assume such things.

I still wonder who she was and why she wore it.

And I wished she were able to see the world not through a mask, a screen, a face covering.

[Sissyk]

35. I've actually never seen one.

So I don't know how I would feel. If it did make me feel bad for the woman, there would be nothing I could do about it.

[rug]

38. In the US, if I see a female in a burka, without knowing anything about her, I assume nothing.

On the internet, if I see a post like this, I assume plenty.

[LanternWaste]

43. Yours may be the best (and most relevant) response to date.

Yours may be the best (and most relevant) response to date.

[LostOne4Ever]

96. +9001 (nt)

[ecstatic]

100. +1. nt

[Union Scribe]

104. Exactly.

That kind of thinking is bizarre to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

111. + eleventy billion!

Well said!

[maddezmom]

139. Well said

[Lunacee_2013]

39. The only experiences I have with this are

the few times I took the taps bus home from the local community college and shared some seats with a small group of Indian women. They were wearing head coverings but they were also alone. No man was escorting them on campus or on the bus ride home. They had no problems talking with anyone else, including other male passengers. Unless we ask a woman face-to-face and one-on-one we really don't know. The women on the bus acted normally, they had no bruises or black eyes and talked and laughed loudly. It seemed to me like they dressed the way they wanted to. But, like I said, you'd have to ask them without any men present.

That being said however, I'll be the first to admit that burkas look burdensome and oppressive. I've never worn one and I never will and that's my choice.

[pnwmom]

42. If they were covered from head to foot, with netting over their eyes,

how could you determine they looked fine, with "no bruises," under the clothing? And is "no bruises" proof that they're not being forced to wear the burkas?

[Lunacee_2013]

51. I never said they were wearing full, head-to-toe burkas.

They were wearing head scarfs with a tunic type of shirt that showed their necks, part of the chest area and the lower part of their arms, along with long, black dresses. Their eyes were completely visible as was part of their skin, which appeared to be unmarked to me. They acted just like all the other women on the bus. They showed no signs of abuse so why should I assume they were being abused or forced to wear anything? Sometimes other women just choose to wear things you or I would not.

[pnwmom]

54. But the OP is specifically about women in burkas.

So your description of women wearing headscarves isn't relevant. Choosing to wear a headscarf doesn't limit women's vision, interfere with walking and running, or prevent two friends from recognizing each other on the street.

[Lunacee_2013]

62. It was just a story.

Other posters mentioned nuns in habits or head coverings as well. I have no experience with burkas, that was just my 2 cents. I agreed that burkas seem oppressive, but until you (or I) know a woman's story, we can only guess if she's doing it for herself or someone else.

[lindysalsagal]

44. 2 ways to look at it:

1. Religious expression is protected. It's a free country.
2. If she shouldn't be seen by strangers, what's she doing out of the house? If society is so dangerous, she should stay home.

But it still comes down to the fact that she is essentially his property, and he wants her all to himself. It can also hide the bruises....

[Arugula Latte]

48. There's the assumption that men want "their" women covered

so no other men can see them -- implying that men can't control themselves, and yet it is the women who bear this horrible burden.

[davidn3600]

46. A law as sweeping as France's I think would be unconstitutional here

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Considering her choice to wear that clothing doesn't infringe upon the rights of others, the courts are unlikely to rule in favor of a law that bans such choice of clothing other than for security issues (ie: airport security) or official picture identification purposes.

Now can you pass a law that forbids a person from forcing someone to wear it? Perhaps. In some sense that may be illegal already without having to pass anything. However, that's tricky to enforce because if you were to ask these women, I imagine probably every one would say it's a choice. Either they don't realize it may not be or they dont want to risk abandonment by their family. Peer and family pressure can be very strong. So that's a sensitive and complex situation.

Ultimately I think you feel as if the way some practice Islam is oppressive to women. And that may be true. But I dont know how far the government can go to change that. Even in France or Turkey where they've played around with different laws on this topic, they meet a lot of resistance and controversy. So it's not a simple answer.

[pnwmom]

56. There are several states that already ban mask-wearing in public,

and those laws have not been overturned.

[JanMichael]

49. could be a man or boy too. nt

[CJCRANE]

52. Someone in a wheelchair could be faking it too

but it's probably not a good idea to call someone out in either case.

FWIW I don't agree with the idea of face coverings, but I find some of the alarmism in this thread to be over the top.

Let's treat people as individuals.

[JanMichael]

75. a wheel chair covered? that would be a small yurt or covered wagon....nt

[lostincalifornia]

53. Seems like you prefer French law. Oh wait, someone in a hoodie. Security, stand your ground oh my

[sarisataka]

55. I would think it is a woman wearing a burka

Not my place to judge others by how they dress.

[pnwmom]

57. Too bad for Elizabeth Smart

and others like her.

[CJCRANE]

61. Was Elizabeth Smart wearing a burka?

[davidn3600]

66. I think it's been stated her kidnappers forced her to for a period of time

[sarisataka]

63. Why on earth

Would i consider every woman in a burka to be a captive? Since the Twin Cities have the largest Somali population in the U.S. I would be very busy reporting women in burkas.

[randome]

58. The clash of cultures is inevitable.

We like to think that everyone is free to be themselves but there are subtle influences at work no matter where you live.

Ask a woman in a burka if she wants to go dancing and the answer will probably be, "I'm sorry, my husband won't allow it."

Ask a woman in a burka if she wants to go running in the mornings with you and the answer will probably be, "I'm sorry, my husband won't allow it."

There have always been clashes between cultures with eventually a homogenized result. The clash between the Eastern world and the Western world is still underway.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

60. A woman in a burka physically can't run or she'll trip. Her vision is impaired. n/t

[randome]

64. In other words, she can't participate in activities that our culture celebrates.

And she never will because she is forbidden from removing that burka.

Ergo, she will always be apart until the two cultures blend more together. And being apart inevitably means she will be ostracized to some extent.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

73. She can't recognize her own sister or friend on the street,

assuming they're both wearing burqas. It's very isolating.

[randome]

76. Good point. We can say it's choice but it's not really, is it? It's culture.

And it's a culture that's diametrically opposed to the 'norm' in America. I'm not one of those 'Speak English and act American' idiots from Fox News. But if you don't make the effort to blend in, you will obviously never blend in. You will be apart. And being apart inevitably leads to isolation.

Happy Hour. Running. Canoeing. Hiking. Dancing. Hang gliding. Shit, just travel for the sake of travel. All 'forbidden' by the custom typified by a burka.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[Violet_Crumble]

113. A woman in high heels can't run or she'll trip as well. Want to ban heels as well? n/t

[randome]

116. Don't think we're talking about banning anything.

I think the subject is clothing that forces an individual to forever be apart from the society she finds herself in.

It's one of those fine line observations. It's easy to say 'live and let live' but there is a strong tendency in some cultures to subjugate women by forcing them to wear certain clothing.

I would think it's safe to assume there are more women being forced to wear certain clothing than there are women forced to wear high heels.

It's an assumption, sure, but likely a valid one giving the history of abuse and subjugation of some cultures.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[Violet_Crumble]

121. Who's 'we'? The person I responded to has said in this thread she wants to ban them...

So it's just fine to assume that a woman is forced to wear something you don't like, but it's not okay to assume that she chooses to wear it? Correct me if I got the gist of the OP wrong there...

You know what they say about assumptions....

[randome]

125. Sorry, I thought you'd responded to me.

What are the odds? The statistics? I don't know but, again, there is a history of subjugation and abuse in some cultures and clothing is part of this abuse. It's deeply ingrained in the culture.

To deny reality is as bad as making assumptions.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Violet_Crumble]

127. That's cool, randome...

All I know is it's not a good idea to ban something because someone might be being forced to wear it because that takes away the choice of people who wear it willingly. It would make sense to me to instead make it a crime for anyone to force another adult to wear something they don't want to wear, but I suspect that sort of thing may already be a crime in some parts of the world

[pnwmom]

119. No one's religion is forcing anyone to wear high heels.

That should be a crime, too. In case you're wondering, I'm also against foot binding and other forms of disabling women.

[Violet_Crumble]

124. So you are assuming that woman are being forced to wear burqas?

I could have sworn I saw you in another part of this thread claiming you weren't assuming that.

I've never met anyone who wants to ban high heels before. So much for women's choices, I guess. Lucky we've got you there to try to forbid other women from dressing how they dress...

[LeftyMom]

65. And a backyard fence could be concealing the next Jaycee Dugard. Both are extremely unlikely,

and not a reasonable justification for intruding on somebody else's privacy.

Mind your own fucking business. Dress yourself and let other women worry about their clothing and their religion.

[LittleBlue]

67. Why don't we assume that women who go for abortions are being forced?

Coerced by a boyfriend? Coerced by parents? Oppressed by a society that encourages abortion?

Because we know such questions are thinly veiled attempts by anti-choicers who want to impose their own choices on others. Just like the bigots in France who remove a woman's choice under the guise of "liberating" her.

Sorry, you either give them a choice and accept it, or you don't.

[riderinthestorm]

68. We as a society have made rules about what women can and can't wear in public

Forever. Women have certainly been the target of culture wars, we simply have "forgotten" that we too are subject to laws about our clothing. We must wear tops for one thing. So why does such a misogynistic garment such as the burqa get a "cultural pass"? Even as its designed to erase a woman from being a full equal member of society? Is that the kind of society we want?

Face coverings also have a negative connotation in our culture - many people viscerally loathe them most likely stemming from items like the KKK masks or robbers. In many places they are legally (and rightfully) banned.

Societies have to come to grips with repugnant cultural customs like FGM or the disappearing of women in burqas. Some of these things we outlaw because we don't want them in society (like FGM or aboriginal nudity or face coverings in banks). I think conversations about misogynistic cultural customs are healthy and good for our public square and I don't think the burqa should get a pass either.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants. Albert Camus

[Thinkingabout]

70. If the American Taliban tries to put American in burkas they will have a fight on their hands like

They have not witnessed before. There may just be some of the American Taliban wearing burkas to cover their ugly faces after a few high heel knots on their heads.

[BainsBane]

71. Because France's laws seek to discriminate against Muslims

which is illegal in this country.

You could ask that question about assuming choice about any clothing. Perhaps a woman wearing a denim skirt was forced to by her husband or father? Perhaps the girl in a miniskirt is a human trafficking victim forced by her owner to wear that outfit and prostitute herself? We never know what anyone's situation is, but most people make their own clothing choices, including women who veil. If coercion or abuse is present, why is it that it is the clothing that disturbs you? Why the burka rather than domestic battery? This appears to me to be a case of discomfort with a religious and ethnic minority.

Elizabeth Smart did not wear a burka. Her captors were not Muslim. Muslim women have as much right to veil as you and I have a right to wear jeans. Focusing on the dress of Muslim women is a function of Islamophobia. People need to knock it off.

[cprise]

78. They never had to deal with that before

It just reflects poorly on Islam that such deeply antisocial behavior is required among its more fundamentalist elements.

There is no excuse for concealing your face in public, day in and day out. These are people who tragically give Islam a bad name and help fuel Islamophobia by treating women like property that must be locked up, or kept concealed like money in a wallet.

[BainsBane]

94. No excuse?

You don't get to decide how people dress. It's none of your business. You are saying Islamic dress is somehow wrong. I say that kind of prejudice toward Muslims is wrong, and no different from any other kind of bigotry. Those women don't need your permission to select their clothing. Your argument is that in order to avoid bigots feeling bigotry, they need to dress like you say so. Should black people bleach their skin and straighten their hair in order to avoid the Klan feeling racism? Should gay people dress and act straight in order to avoid homophobia? Islamophobia is not caused by the fact that people have the nerve to dress in ways you don't approve of. It is a function of people who think their own cultural practices are superior. Excuse me while I go

[cprise]

133. No, and your stilted view of diversity is

...giving that diversity a bad name. Your argument is a classic example of political correctness run amok, and religious fundamentalists of all stripes (who would very much like to equate their beliefs and interpretations to factors like ethnicity, skin color and sex) thank you for it.

Just because Muslims have something in their religion doesn't mean its acceptable in a secular society. The same goes for Christianity and other belief systems.

Those women don't need your permission to select their clothing.

Face masks aren't "clothing"; nevertheless there things people can't wear in public.

And ask a psychiatrist if always hiding and isolating yourself doesn't have serious psychological consequences. Then you can claim that psychiatry is an anti-Muslim conspiracy.

They don't have to dress like me, they have to not hide their faces. If there's no chance of recognition as I walk past burka-clad people, then some basic social need has been repressed.

Should black people bleach their skin and straighten their hair in order to avoid the Klan feeling racism?

Was that intentional irony? Perhaps you were imagining white burkas with pointy hoods to conceal a person's skin color.

[Bonobo]

72. It's a complicated issue, but why assume it is not of her own free will?

Why would you ASSUME she is being forced to do it?

Why not assume it was her free will?

Plenty of Muslim women say they like to wear the hajib, the burqa, etc.

[pnwmom]

74. I have said repeatedly that I don't assume anything. But our society, through its laws,

assumes that girls and women wear burkas voluntarily, and I think that's often a mistaken assumption.

[Bonobo]

81. By "Our society", I guess you mean from a legal POV?

Or do you mean the majority of people?

Legally, one has to assume one or the other. Since it is impossible to ASSUME that it is coerced, you have to assume that it is not.

As for what the majority assume, I can't say for sure, but I guess yeah, I personally assume that women have agency unless I get some other indication that they don't.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

77. Great article. Also, men don't cover their faces, because wives and religions don't force men nt

[hollowdweller]

84. I wonder if US Special Forces ever used that against the terrorists?

You know ambushed somebody or infiltrated a city dressed in burkas.

Seems like it would be a good disguise.

[lonestarnot]

86. No assumptions here. Nothing is ever as it appears.

[maxsolomon]

88. really? nothing?

actually, most things are precisely as they appear. its the exceptions that should stop us from assuming.

burkas appear to be misogyny made concrete. only the motivation for a woman to be wearing it remains assumed. even if a woman chooses to wear it, that's what it remains - misogyny made concrete.

[lonestarnot]

89. precisely nothing.

[AnnieBW]

93. I Generally Think "This is America"

My first reaction is, "oh, come on, this is America." Of course, I live in the DC metropolitan area, where we have diplomats and their wives, students, and all kinds of people.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. Assuming that it's someone who'd been kidnapped is a silly way to look at it...

The vast majority of women wearing burqas haven't been kidnapped. Are they wearing them by choice? It depends on how you look at choice. A gay teenager with nutbag fundamentalist Christian parents can come out of the closet and get tossed out on the street or he can stay in the closet and have a place to live. It's a shitty choice no matter what they decide, but it's still a choice. And a lot of kids do make that choice to come out in spite of the consequences.

What I'd like to see happen in terms of the law, is to offer financial support for women who want to get the hell out of the religious nutbag communities that make them wear a burqa. But I think ultimately they have to make that choice, we can't do it for them.

[jberryhill]

98. Lock them up - that'll teach them

First offense - $500

30 days imprisonment + 30 days for each additional offense.

If they are on a visa - deport them.

Add another 30 days if they are using an e-cig.

It's time we cracked down on these women.

[pnwmom]

106. It's time we cracked down on any husband

who is forcing these suffocating, isolating things on his wife or daughter.

[jberryhill]

107. Okay, so...

You are going to define a criminal offense in which someone other than the person who commits the offense is penalized.

Is that correct?

How about answering the question?

What is it that you want to see enacted into law, and what is the penalty you propose?

I'll assume that you know that forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is already covered by a number of laws, primarily various species of battery.

So, spit it out. What will this law of yours say, exactly?

[pnwmom]

108. No. That isn't correct.

The person committing the offense -- the one forcing the burqa on another -- should be penalized.

I like France's law. Facing the possibility of fines, fewer men will force these on the women in their families. I realize a law like that will never be passed here, but I don't think that's a good thing.

[jberryhill]

109. Forcing someone to wear something is already illegal

I assure you that if I showed up at your door with a shirt and forced you to wear it, I would be committing a string of criminal offenses.

But you refuse to answer the question.

Say exactly what you want to make illegal, and tell me what the penalty is.

"Any father of an unmarried woman, or any husband of a married woman, shall be fined x or imprisoned for a term of y, in the event said woman is found to be covering her face in public."

Is that it? Or do you just want existing laws on spousal abuse, assault and battery to be re-issued in a different font?

You say you like the French law. The only thing it has accomplished is to fine several women 150 euro. Go read your OP again.

So, we see a woman dressed this way in public. Then what? A police officer then has probable cause to detain and question her, in order to ask, "Were you forced to wear this?"

And just what do you think the answer will be EVERY time?

But, okay, one says "yes". So we go and arrest the husband. In order to convict him, of course, we are going to have to bring her in to testify that he forced her to wear it.

And you believe this will accomplish what?

[LostOne4Ever]

99. I assume nothing

Unless evidence is provided, I make no assumptions. I will assume that she is being forced if I see actual evidence of her being forced. I will assume she is wearing it because she wants to if I see evidence that its of her own choice. Otherwise I will think, "How unusual, a person in full religious garb."

If you are talking about the legal system it does not (or rather it should not) act on assumptions. They don't just break into homes because they feel some might be committing a crime based on no evidence.

Dressing in whatever the various garbs are called is not evidence of being forced in and of itself.

If you are talking about society itself, I would say you are wrong. Our Society tends to suspect that the woman is being forced either by the men in her life, or her culture. Its a very paternalistic view if you ask me.

As for Ms. Smart, are you saying that we should accost everyone dressed like that and assume they are being coerced? That sounds like it would trample on the rights and sensitivities of a huge number of people, and take up a HUGE chuck of police time harassing innocent people based on nothing but a stereotype.

Racial profiling sucks....as does cultural profiling.

[closeupready]

101. LOL, everyone today is freaking Miss Marple or Hercule Poirot.

[Union Scribe]

105. Other suspicious things to look out for

1. Women or children wearing sunglasses or long sleeves (what are they hiding? Bruises from abuse?)

2. Cars with tinted windows (you're not fooling me kidnappers, I'm peering in when you stop for gas!)

3. Guys with keys (keys to what? His DUNGEON probably!)

4. Guys buying shovels (to dig what? Graves? Or the dungeon his keys are to?)

5. People on the phone (making ransom calls eh? Not on my watch dammit.)

6. Cameras (they steal souls. Not really related, but important information.)

[CJCRANE]

110. You're talking about three different things here.

The burka: this is mostly worn by Afghani women. You make some good points about this. I'm not comfortable about this item of clothing either. This is an issue for the Afghani community so should be discussed with them. AFAIK burkas are not generally worn by women in Turkey or France.

The face veil: this is the face covering which shows the eyes, popular in Saudi Arabia. This is the item of clothing they banned in France, which many see as a xenophobic act. I tend to agree. I don't particularly like the face veil but I don't think it should be banned as it's a woman's choice to wear one (I have met lots of Saudis both veiled and non-veiled and they were all normal people).

The headscarf: this is a headscarf, I think everyone knows what it is, it just covers your hair or part of your hair. Government workers in Turkey were banned from wearing this due to their secular constitution. This is an issue of religious freedom. From what I've seen on TV more women in Turkey want to wear one in their government job just like women in other countries can.

[pnwmom]

112. I'm talking about the burka, which covers the whole face except for an opening at the eyes,

and a niqab, or any other all-over covering worn with a face-veil covering everything but the eyes.

I am not talking about a headscarf.

The burqa isn't only worn by Afghani women. I have seen them a few times in the U.S., but no, I haven't questioned those women and I don't intend to.

Here's a picture of a U.S. teen wearing this kind of garment.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/in-plain-sight-tom-smart/1012698239?ean=9781613742105

Here's a picture of a woman with a niqab in France.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/19/battle-for-the-burqa

[CJCRANE]

118. They are two different things from different cultures: the burka and the niqab.

I agree with you to a certain extent about the burka because you can't see anything, it is just a sack with a small piece of netting. The burka is not an issue in Turkey (or the main issue in France) as you mentioned in your OP.

The niqab (face veil showing the eyes) is the issue in France. I don't agree with banning it. If you ban it you will have a mirror image of the Saudi religious police, except these guys will be trying to remove a piece of women's clothing. It would be a sort of anti-religious police.

You mentioned Turkey in your OP. But the burka is not an issue there. The issue there is the religious freedom for women to wear a headscarf in their government job.

[pnwmom]

120. Effectively, they do the same thing: cover the face except for the eyes.

The burqa adds the netting over the eyes, but they're both unwieldy, hot, and isolating.

[CJCRANE]

126. I mostly agree with you

but I've met a lot of women wearing niqabs and you can usually recognize them just from their clothing and their eyes. They are still people. (In fact I think if one of my students wore dark glasses or mirror shades that would be more off-putting than a niqab).

I think the burka is much worse.

[pnwmom]

128. Here is a picture of a woman named Nayet in France. (second photo)

Do you think her friends would recognize her on the street? Or her sister?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/commentisfree+world/french-burqa-and-niqab-ban

[leftynyc]

114. I NEVER assume it's by choice

In fact, in my mind, even the women who do claim to be wearing them out of choice have been brainwashed. And the excuses. That women in the US wear things that almost require men to become slobbering fools while these women in burquas are looking to avoid being scrutinized. Believe me when I say in my city a woman wearing a string bikini will get less looks than a woman in a burqua. I have no beef with any head covering that doesn't include the face. Once you cover your face, you're no longer a person. You've been disappeared.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. Why do you assume it's a woman? It could be Hugh Laurie...

[MadrasT]

134. Why would anyone make *any* assumptions about a person based on what they wear?

No one knows shit about a woman who is veiled (other than "she is veiled&quot .

The "why" is her business. Not ours.

[pnwmom]

135. We all make the assumption that a woman in a burqa is wearing it freely.

Or else, presumably, we'd try to help -- the same as we would if we saw a human being being led around by a collar and a leash.

[randome]

136. What are the odds that a Muslim woman who is practically invisible is being subjugated?

The 'why' is her business so long as she 'allows' herself to be subjugated? What do you think is more likely? That she wants to be submissive to her husband or that she is forced to because that's the only life she's known?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[redqueen]

137. #SolidarityisforWhiteWomen

[pnwmom]

138. That depicts a woman in a scarf, which is NOT what this is about. nt