Who's wreaked more international havoc lately? US or Russia?

[MannyGoldstein]

Over the past five years, including what's going on now in Ukraine, which country's caused more geopolitical strife?

(Note to the dim-witted: I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc. just trying to get some perspective here.)

[AverageJoe90]

1. TBH, probably Russia at this point, especially with the shenanigans in the Ukraine. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

3. How would you compare that to

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and drones?

[jazzimov]

19. Hmmm, that sort of negates your whole

"note to the dim-witted" exception. It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

But as I posted down-thread: it makes no difference.

[MannyGoldstein]

20. Sorry, I forgot. My bad.

Ipso facto, the dim-witted are incapable of comprehending language as commonly understood.

[sheshe2]

22. You just nailed it, jazzimov!

You got Bingo!

[Scootaloo]

24. You set the timescale to "The last five years," Manny

Within that timescale, most of the big carnage has been intra-national, rather than international, and hte US has largely drawn down from where it was. Libya was a multinational endeavor (which included Libya itself). As for drones, those cause carnage on a personal scale, rather than a national scale.

[MannyGoldstein]

32. Eisenhower ended the Korean war in a few months.

I think that any stand-down that takes longer than that is willful aggression. We've been in Afghanistan, during Obama's presidency, longer than our entire span in WWII.

[newfie11]

146. +infinity! Nt

[hack89]

153. By threatening nuclear war with China

In late 1952 Eisenhower went to Korea and discovered a military and political stalemate. Once in office, when the Chinese began a buildup in the Kaesong sanctuary, he threatened to use nuclear force if an armistice was not concluded. His earlier military reputation in Europe was effective with the Chinese.[147] The National Security Council, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Strategic Air Command (SAC) devised detailed plans for nuclear war against China.[148] With the death of Stalin in early March 1953, Russian support for a Chinese hard-line weakened and China decided to compromise on the prisoner issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#Korean_War.2C_China.2C_and_Taiwan

After his success in defeating the Germans, the Chinese were not willing to gamble that he wouldn't be willing to kill millions of them.

[MannyGoldstein]

154. What superpower plays China's role this time?

And there's no armistice line in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Seems like we could have pulled out of both, pronto, with outcomes not materially different then we're getting anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Close call, but I would give it to Russia

so far they have been able to invade TWO countries without too much of a fuss and absorb areas back into the Empire.

Also messes in peripheries of Empires are kind of a lot of noise, but little else. This is not in the periphery, but very much in the center of Europe. Did I mention two world wars in that area, the first one starting after five year of on and off armed conflict in the same exact area?

The US is pretty much right now a tired empire.

[pscot]

14. Nadine!!

The Crimea is hardly in the center of Europe. Ukraine is a synthetic state created by Stalin. Suppose Texas voted in a Socialist governmnent ( I know, it's a reach) and decided to join Mexico.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. The Crimean region as an identity goes back to at least Kievan Rus

in fact, much earlier than the middle ages.

that is a few centuries before Peter the Great.

And some regions of the Ukraine as a self identified regions also go that far back.

Sorry, but I can think beyond the 20th century on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea

[2banon]

18. I wish Texas would secede, I wouldn't care if they rejoined Mexico.. :)

Of course Mexico probably have them, but hey.. just sayin' ..

Oh they can have Arizona while they're at it!

[Scootaloo]

30. Point of order...

While Russia did march into Georgia, it was Georgia that picked that fight; Tbilisi was really hedging its actions on the idea that the United States would fly in and fight Russia for them. Didn't happen, and Georgia got rolled. bad decision to shoot a lot of mortars into enclaves of people with Russian nationality, if you ask me

[T. J. Kong]

138. I agree

When folks start shooting at you, you have every right to defend yourself.

The same goes for molotov cocktails.

[fadedrose]

132. I agree with you nadin...we are a tired nation

maybe we can sit this one out.

We have enough battles going on in our Congress.

[KoKo]

162. The PEOPLE of the Empire are TIRED...but NOT the Empire Itself...n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

175. Unless the empire is willing to risk a nuclear exchange

(There I go, worst casing this fer ya) this is seen as the absolute limit of American power right now.

[ProSense]

4. LOL!

&quot Note to the dim-witted: I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc. just trying to get some perspective here.)"

Perspective like: "Who's wrecked more international havoc lately? US or Russia?"

Yikes! You should rethink that sentence.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. HAHAHAHAHA

Notice how the OP sort of brushed the LGBT issue aside?

Telling....

[ProSense]

15. Bush invaded Iraq, ergo, Putin is justified.

To hell with democracy and them rights stuff!!!

[Cali_Democrat]

25. ...oh and of course the OP only wants to look at the past 5 years

because what happened 5 years ago?

[msanthrope]

180. What happened five years ago????? *Raises Hand*

Some people had their brains broke 5 years ago--that's what.....

[pscot]

27. How about, we have no moral standing

for our complaint. Still less so, since Ukraine is now a gas play and "our" Energy Giants are deeply committed. Our outrage is fundamentally dishonest, except for a few genuine cold war loonies like McCain who want to wave the bloody shirt.

[ProSense]

34. LOL! No one

"How about, we have no moral standing"

...cares about the silliness. The UN just voted to condemn Putin, and China left him out in the cold.

Japan does not recognize Crimea vote: government spokesman
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024676007

[pscot]

47. What particular satisfaction do you derive from that?

This is all a tempest in a teapot. All our posturing is just a pose. Our only interest there is the corporate interest. .In 10 years no one will remember it happened.

[ProSense]

52. Right

"This is all a tempest in a teapot. All our posturing is just a pose. Our only interest there is the corporate interest. .In 10 years no one will remember it happened. "

...all Putin's illegal invasion is about is protecting democracy and rights.

Fact is, he is being rightly condemned.

[pscot]

85. Putin is protecting what he sees as belonging to Russia

We have dirty hands. We've recently slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis on a damned pretext. Our vaunted morality is a lie. We don't live by the values we preach. We see the mote in Putin's eye but not the beam in our own. I haven't heard any preaching about human rights from the Russians. They do want to keep what's theirs, and I expect they will, whether we like it or not.

[ProSense]

92. You can't be serious. That justifies illegally invading another country? n/t

[pscot]

112. I know, you're shocked. Like Sleeping Beauty

you napped through the noughties when we invaded 2 countries, appointed ourselves world cop and started droning furriners and spying on ourselves and everyone else on the planet. We even put octogenarian nuns in jail if they get out of line. Since 2008 we've lived in Obama's Perfect World and he's made everything all better. If only. I'm going to have get myself a glass of warm milk and some cookies to calm me before bed. Maybe I'll dream about the America you think we live in. That would be pleasant.

[ProSense]

116. I see,

"I know, you're shocked. Like Sleeping Beauty you napped through the noughties when we invaded 2 countries, appointed ourselves world cop and started droning furriners and spying on ourselves and everyone else on the planet. We even put octogenarian nuns in jail if they get out of line. Since 2008 we've lived in Obama's Perfect World and he's made everything all better. If only. I'm going to have get myself a glass of warm milk and some cookies to calm me before bed. Maybe I'll dream about the America you think we live in. That would be pleasant."

...you believe that because Bush invaded Iraq, Putin is justified in invading Ukraine. Evidently, you now support the Bush doctrine. Will you be supporting illegal invasions going forward?


Stand with Big Vladdy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024675812#post90

[pscot]

127. That's silly

Putin has put a marker down over Crimea. Should we send the Sixth Fleet into the Black Sea to drive the Russians out? There are apparently vast amounts of gas under Ukraine. Our oil majors want it. We're very big on popular revolutions as long as they happen elsewhere. But march on Wall Street, or to protest what your local utility company is doing and get your head bashed. As Nadine pointed out upthread, Ukraine is practically Europe. So let the Europeans handle it. We're twisting their arme to get tough with Russia. Why is that? Do you really believe it's because we have the best interests of Ukranians at heart?

[ProSense]

129. What on earth are you talking about? n/t

[pscot]

131. Thanks for the clarification.

[rhett o rick]

125. No there is no justification of invading another country. But I guess you think it's ok if

the USofA does it. Counting Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, our death count from illegal invasions is in the millions. But you are willing to overlook that because of some patriotic American exceptionalism.

[ProSense]

126. Nonsense. n/t

[Lost_Count]

149. Condemn all day but I don't see any actions...

... That will stop any of this from going forward.

[former9thward]

81. Are you saying the UN passed a resolution?

Russia vetoed it. China abstained from it. When the U.S. vetoes a resolution are you going to post the "UN just voted to condemn the U.S."?

[ProSense]

84. What?

That makes no sense. LOL!

[former9thward]

93. Did you accidentally reply to one of your posts?

[ProSense]

96. Your comment made no sense. n/t

[arely staircase]

43. and hatin on the gays and whatevs

disgusting dismissal of human rights

[sheshe2]

35. For us dim witted people

hating on homosexuals, etc.

Homosexuals are now an etcetera?!@#$%^&*

That is indeed a profound statement from Manny!

I am sure this post will be off to the greatest page with an awesome number of recs!

[MannyGoldstein]

38. One of us needs professional help. nt

[sheshe2]

39. I know! nt

[Enthusiast]

148. If you know, make an appointment.

[sheshe2]

184. Cute.

[zeemike]

89. You don't understand Manny.

Gay rights trumps everything even if it means a fascist government in the Ukraine or a war that kills thousands.
Which is ironic sense the gays and Jews will be the first to go.

[arely staircase]

115. I don't think you are helping him

Like you assume

[zeemike]

155. I am not here to help him

And I don't assume I am.

[JackRiddler]

182. Yeah, because the Ukrainian fascists...

are big friends of the gay community.

[arely staircase]

45. lgbt = etc

according to mannygoldstein

[sheshe2]

56. Yes indeed.

LGBT=etc~

[MannyGoldstein]

61. I think you should alert on the OP, for its obvious

attack on the LGBT community. This sort of thing should not be allowed to stand.

[Cali_Democrat]

63. BTW....

Why do you only want to go back 5 years?

[MannyGoldstein]

66. Make it ten.

I'm not sure how that helps makes a case against Russia, but go for it.

[Cali_Democrat]

106. It's just interesting

...that you mentioned 5 years in your OP.

What happened 5 years ago?

[MannyGoldstein]

107. Bush stopped being President? nt

[Cali_Democrat]

122. ...and Obama became president

it's been so awful under Obama that you'd rather overturn his election than the election of Reagan.

Right?

[uponit7771]

200. lol...E for effort

[arely staircase]

65. no I want everyone to see it

should have thought this one over.

Sincerely,

Etc.

[MannyGoldstein]

71. It'll still be viewable

But with the shame of being censured by DU.

[arely staircase]

74. oh it is viewable

for all of us in the etc. community.

[MannyGoldstein]

75. I guess I've shown my true colors

[arely staircase]

76. fucking a you have

Sincerely

Etc. Arely

[sheshe2]

80. Nope, we will let it stand Manny!

A need to know sort of thing.

You said it and you own it.

[MannyGoldstein]

82. Truly, the jig is up for me.

[arely staircase]

99. disgusting dismissal of human rights ia pretty revealing

isn't it?

Sincerely,

Etc. Arely

[MannyGoldstein]

105. Utterly.

[arely staircase]

110. etc.

Sorry but you own that forever.

Sincerely,

Etc. Arely

[Puglover]

170. I love how these folks find the

LGTB community such a convenient cudgel to batter progressives with. And yet were screaming at us during the Rick Warren incident and during the hottest part of the fight for marriage equality.

"You have enough rights."

Gee they were no where to be found.

Pay no attention to the disingenuous bullshite.

[PowerToThePeople]

196. Rec

[joshcryer]

192. You drive way too much traffic.

It'll take a whole lot more than this to get you booted. Though it's quaint they are trying.

[MannyGoldstein]

193. But writing "etc."... At some point DU's Admins need to take a stand for basic human decency. nt

[babylonsister]

130. Manny talks a lot!

I think it's fine, fun, occasionally infuriating. That's when I ignore him.

[sheshe2]

135. Well I do have some fun responding~

I try to cheer him up when he haz a sad...

[dionysus]

185. manny, you are a smart guy, you deal on the shadowy edge of tactical trolling. you have mad skills.

[Number23]

62. Not just lgbt

[arely staircase]

67. nah, we are etc. nt

[sheshe2]

83. We are all etc! nt

[arely staircase]

87. etc way etc

[SunsetDreams]

88. Take two etc..edrin

and call Putin in the morning preferably at 3 a.m.

[Number23]

144. SunsetDreams!!! How are you??

Haven't seen you for ages, not that I blame you.

[SunsetDreams]

161. Hey 23!

I'm doing good! How are you doing?

[JoePhilly]

172. The perpetually outraged only cared about lgbt rights

when they thought Obama was never ever going to end DADT.

Way back when DADT was still on the books, the perpetually outraged were very very concerned about it. Obama was a bad guy who was never going to end it. BASTARD!!

Then Obama ended DADT, and now backs marriage equality.

So the perpetually disgruntled simply decided that lgbt rights were nothing more than "crumbs" that Obama was throwing to the left. Meaningless scraps.

Thus the framing in the OP. lgbt rights are rather insignificant and should not be considered to carry any weight in this particular outrage topic.

[JackRiddler]

183. Clearly not.

lgbt is on his list. Etc. would refer to whatever he didn't specify in addition.

But go ahead: what's the point of reading, when you can engage in fake outrage?

[Hissyspit]

197. No, it doesn't. It separated by a comma.

When the fuck does comma equal equal?

[Hissyspit]

199. See post #91.

The comma is actually important.

Nice attempt at distorting his point.

[Fumesucker]

5. Wreaked...

[MannyGoldstein]

6. D'oh!

Will update, thanks.

[blkmusclmachine]

7. Guess.

[pscot]

8. If hypocrisy were an Olympic event

We could pave Pennsylvania Ave. with gold medals

[HereSince1628]

9. I'm stuck, at least one of those countries does its havoc covertly

And I think it's the same country that is the greatest threat to US democracy.

But I can't know, because it's mostly done covertly, doncha know?

[functioning_cog]

10. Benefit of the doubt. Excuses. Case in point.

Just like FoxnFriends. "We're just asking' questions here!"

Pretty transparent and oh so consistent. And I predict over 100 recs. and we know you care about recs and rep. We read ATA.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Because, as you know, I have trouble coming out and speaking my mind.

LOL.

[cthulu2016]

12. USA has. Doesn't mean Russia is supposed to grow in size.

[jazzimov]

17. Here's some perspective:

it doesn'T make any difference.

[snappyturtle]

21. I think the U.S. has the gold medal on this one. nt

[CFLDem]

23. Well which one is setting up the next major European war?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Mars

[geek tragedy]

28. Russia. Sorry we can't endorse Putin over Obama like you would prefer. nt

[arely staircase]

29. putin rocks

http://www.towleroad.com/pussy-riot/

Kremlin Way Arely

[riqster]

159. Kremlin Way Arely! Brilliant.

Later today I'll be putting away some Irish beer. Will that make me "Putin' 'Way Riqster"?

We could have lots of pun with this.

[babylonsister]

31. What has the US done in the past five years to attract your ire? Oye. nt

[sheshe2]

50. Well I would have to say...

That Manny ...haz a sad. However, I am not really saying that because the last time I did I was alerted on.

[treestar]

51. elected and reelected Barack H. Obama as President?

[sheshe2]

59. Well I think you just nailed that one treestar!

[JoePhilly]

173. Winner!

[SidDithers]

53. Elected Obama twice...nt

Sid

[Number23]

58. I was wondering if I was the only person that noted the OPs focus only on the last five years

Hmmm...what was it that happened only five years ago that would set the OP's loins and outrage meter on fire, I wonder...

(checking calendar to see how long Obama has been in office vs the numerous times old Vlad has served as President/Prime Minister/Tsar of Russia)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=761367&mesg_id=761480

Do you think the OP will get as tired of doing his schtick as the rest of us are of reading it anytime soon??

[babylonsister]

86. It's being noticed. That's a good thing, and thanks to you and

everyone else.

[zappaman]

143. You better believe it!

[Benton D Struckcheon]

33. Global attitudes on the US

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-1-attitudes-toward-the-united-states/

Not too shabby. As number ones go, I was expecting to see a lot more resentment, but actually, it's not bad out there.

You may notice, if you actually go to that link, that over in the sidebar there's some stuff on US v China. Not Russia, China.
Russia's an insignificant irritant, nothing more. Their ability to wreak havoc is strictly limited, so this question is kind of silly. The powers in the world are the ones with economies that actually matter, not the ones passively supplying raw materials like Russia. Obviously both the US and China will, in any five year period, wreak significantly more havoc than Russia simply as a side effect of their size.
Russia simply can't. It has a hard enough time keeping its economy chugging along at enough speed to keep their long-suffering folks head above water.

As for how the world sees Russia, here you go:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/03/global-opinion-of-russia-mixed/

Even though they can't do much harm beyond the borders of their old empire, people don't like them anyway. Can't imagine why.

[functioning_cog]

42. Very thorough and accurate answer

Wonder what Manny's reply will be.

[babylonsister]

108. Thanks! nt

[DeSwiss]

118. Lies, damned lies and statistics.

- Where would we be without 'em?

[joshcryer]

36. Pax Americana.

Without a question of doubt. Russia's forays are indicative of a desperate empire falling.

[CFLDem]

41. The War on Terror

has shown the world no longer should fear or follow us.

What a shame...

Ironically I think this new Cold War could be an opportunity to redeem ourselves by tempering our excesses and encouraging more competitive investments.

[joshcryer]

48. I used the term ironically, just a heads up.

[CFLDem]

54. Thanks for the heads up.

But to me at least, the term means American influence has permanently plateaued.

[joshcryer]

97. I think it will take China to take the US down a notch.

Other than that I think the US will continue meddling.

[SunsetDreams]

37. ...

https://www.google.com/#q=flights+to+russia

[Autumn]

40. The US. But none of it is Obamas fault.

This is in no way an endorsement of Putin, just thought I should add that for people who are attracted to your OPs for whatever reason. Oh and rec just because I want to.

[TwilightGardener]

44. Russia--pretty much has Europe on edge, and props up Assad while

he bombs and starves his own citizens. So yeah, I know, IRAQ!! but lately, Russia wins the destabilization and dirty-deeds contest.

[T. J. Kong]

46. Everybody Knows

[Recursion]

49. Over the past *5* years, you ask? Russia, hands down.

I know America is largely unaware that Central Asia exists, but seriously?

[SidDithers]

55. ...

Sid

[sheshe2]

57. ...

[greytdemocrat]

157. HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[JoePhilly]

166. Usually we have to wait until Monday morning for one of these ...

... free floating outrage threads.

Looks like Manny couldn't wait and took an early spin of the wheel with this one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. This isn't a contest

On can simultaneously deplore certain actions of the US and Russia at the same time...and there's not really any comparison anyway; your examples cited upthread? Libya: in response to Qaddafi using artillery on civilian populations in Homs and as a result of a UN vote; Iraq: US troops withdrawn, ending a war started under the previous administration; Afghanistan: US troops to withdraw this year, ending a war begun under the previous administration. Has the US taken any action over the past 5 years that's been almost universally condemned by the international community? (Russia's actions re Ukraine have been.)

[functioning_cog]

64. You may want to edit. Re: Homs is in Syria--not Libya.

Guess the name of the city he did bombard including civilians? It may be GOP's favorite word.

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. Oh right, Benghazi. Sorry, brainfart

but yeah, Russia's support of Assad in Syria has been kind of geopolitically destabilising as well.

[HipChick]

68. The US..

[bkanderson76]

69. Hey, if there isn't a ruckus goin on in the world, we ain't doin our job...GO USA GO USA

[JoeyT]

70. Can we have a both option?

Neither is really a bastion of restraint as far as fucking with people goes. Both sort of consider their own citizens fair game, too.

A good bit of the geopolitical strife is the result of both countries trying to one up the other decades ago.

[amandabeech]

73. Putin hates gays, yes, and he does not tolerate political dissent.

He sent Pussy Riot to Siberia for how long?

Anyone who opposes him is in trouble for sure.

The last independent TV station in Russia has been taken down.

Putin is KGB, and that's all he knows. He's taking Russia back to a police state.

If you want to know what country he's really invading, it's Russia herself.

[arely staircase]

77. gays are just etc. nt

[Autumn]

91. You must have missed the use of the comma by Manny.

Use a comma to separate the elements in a series (three or more things)

"I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc." right there four things.

The meaning of etc

etc.
et cetera.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
et cet·er·a [et set-er-uh, se-truh] Show IPA
adverb
and others; and so forth; and so on (used to indicate that more of the same sort or class might have been mentioned, but for brevity have been omitted): He had dogs, cats, guinea pigs, frogs, et cetera, as pets. Abbreviation: etc.
Origin:
1100–50; late Old English < Latin

Usage note
E t cetera , a Latin phrase, appears in English writing most frequently in its abbreviated form, etc . This phrase is used frequently in technical and business writing, somewhat less frequently in general informal writing, and sometimes in literary or formal writing. Expressions such as and so forth and and so on are useful substitutes.


You need to try harder

[MannyGoldstein]

98. I think it's performance art.

The alternative is to horrifying to contemplate.

[Autumn]

181. No it's not performance art. They aren't that talented.

They want you gone. No matter what you post they are going to go after you. Reading their posts sure as hell does give a person a glimpse into the ugly side of DU.

[amandabeech]

178. No, that is not what I meant at all.

I think that Putin's hatred of gays is despicable.

What I was trying to do is suggest that this man who is despicable in his hatred of gays is despicable in other ways, too.

No slight intended.

[nationalize the fed]

95. Usually when people point out that "Putin is KGB" they fail to also

acknowledge that GHW Bush was CIA


Bush, as CIA Director

In 1976 Ford brought Bush back to Washington to become Director of Central Intelligence (DCI), replacing William Colby.[29] He served in this role for 357 days, from January 30, 1976, to January 20, 1977

[nationalize the fed]

78. why limit to 5 years?

How does Big Bad Russia stack up to this:

Covert United States foreign regime change actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions

1 Prior to Cold War

1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s
2.22 Philippines 1986

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present
3.11 Ukraine 2013–2014

Do they do this?



This?

[PoliticalPothead]

79. Two wars, drone strikes in unoccupied countries, NSA spying on foreign government leaders...

Is this even a question?

[geek tragedy]

94. Do you really think the Russians

aren't spying on world leaders?

[PoliticalPothead]

102. They sent out gift baskets with USB drives loaded with spyware.

They don't have anything remotely close to the massive spying apparatus the US gov has.

Try again.

[geek tragedy]

104. That is awfully naive. nt

[PoliticalPothead]

111. Not as naive as...

asserting, with no evidence whatsoever, that Russia spies on foreign governments on the same scale as the US.

[Maedhros]

176. And nobody pays attention to Africa...

http://www.thenation.com/article/176045/us-militarys-pivot-africa

I point this out because this strategy represents the fulmination of the Rumsfeld Doctrine: wide deployment of special ops forces to vulnerable nations, backed up by rapid response forces in case things go sideways.

Here are all the places in Africa in which we are militarily active. Do we see similar meddling from Russia?:

[ProSense]

90. Stand with Big Vladdy

http://progressivepopulist.org/2014/03/07/stewart-blasts-fox-news-traitorous-hypocritical-praising-putin-video/

Jon Stewart Skewers Conservatives' Massive Crush On Vladimir Putin
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/stewart-skewers-conservative-love-for-putin--3

Analysis: Why Russia's Crimea move fails legal test
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024623531

With Journalists Under Attack, Crimea Faces ‘Information Crisis’ Ahead Of National Referendum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024630765

Russia: Sochi Games Highlight Homophobic Violence
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/03/russia-sochi-games-highlight-homophobic-violence

Russian Federation: Prisoner of conscience beaten in court: Aleksey Polikhovich
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/016/2014/en

Russia: Violent attack on former Pussy Riot members must not be tolerated
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/russia-violent-attack-former-pussy-riot-members-must-not-be-tolerated-2014-

The Russian authorities accelerate their assault on freedom of assembly
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/018/2014/en

Russia: Freedom of expression falls victim to the dramatic events in Ukraine’s Crimea
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/russia-freedom-expression-falls-victim-dramatic-events-ukraine-s-crimea-2014-03-03

Crimea: Attacks, ‘Disappearances’ by Illegal Forces
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/14/crimea-attacks-disappearances-illegal-forces

[SunsetDreams]

101. Who's Your Vladdy?

Come on now...you know

[ProSense]

103. LOL! n/t

[Cha]

124. Thanks for those Pesky Details of Putin's Attacks, PS..

The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk




Travel Guide To Moscow

"First of all, Russia has become very corrupt throughout the last few years. Vladimir Putin has now been in office for twelve years and over those twelve years he has eliminated most elections, monopolized major media, and destroyed the democratic political system. Everyday people are brutally arrested for starting and participating in anti-Putin protests, while some are even detained simply for being nearby. Clearly, Putin’s actions are those of a dictator, and he plans to stay in power as long as possible."

http://sites.psu.edu/egorivanov/2014/01/31/travel-guide-to-moscow/

[kelliekat44]

100. Actually, the GOP has. nt

[Samantha]

109. Too early to call

Give it another two weeks to complete the recount.

Sam

[DeSwiss]

113. Oh, I don't know............

...is this a trick question?!?!?!

{Horshack's light bulb finally goes off!}

- Ooo, Ooo, Ooo Mr. Kotter, Mr. Kotter I know!!! I know!!!

[font size=4]The one with the 900+ bases in other countries!?!?!?[/font]

K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

114. The Russkis are crass amateurs compared to us.

[Catherina]

120. At least we're #1 at something n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

156. +1,000,000

[babylonsister]

117. Yea, we suck.

I assume that's what you wanted to hear?

[JI7]

123. " obama sucks"

that's what he wants to hear . because obama is the worst president ever and so bad that 2008 election was worse than 1980 and 2000.

[babylonsister]

128. Pretty much. I'm just representing. As are you!

[bettyellen]

186. he wants to revive the "not this shit again" graphic I'm all for it

someone help me open a photobucket account and PM me the graphic. Done.

[JoePhilly]

174. Its Manny's version of "American Exceptionalism".

The far right thinks America can do no wrong. "American Exceptionalism."

Meanwhile, Manny thinks America can do no right. "America sucks."

Two silly caricatures, fighting for relevance.

[BeyondGeography]

202. Yeah, someone's in a rut

Poor guy.

[JEB]

119. Seems like both have wreaked their fair share of havoc.

Both service their oligarchs.

[Fearless]

121. Both? There's no monopoly on chaos.

[Rex]

134. Careful that was some thinking there you just did.

Thinking is getting dangerous in these here parts.

[Fearless]

137. Cogito ergo sum

[Rex]

133. Uh oh you said dim-witted...that is like

[Drunken Irishman]

136. Who's wreaked more international havoc - Obama or Putin?

[Rex]

139. Obama shouldn't even be a on the list. To me it is Bush or Putin.

Remember Bush looked into Pootie Poots eyes and found a kindred spirit. Obama has started no wars to date and I bet he won't anytime in the next two years. Any takers let me know.

[obxhead]

140. 5 Years?

Shit, over the last 35 years, arguably the last 60 years.

The US, hands down. Even when other countries are fucking with the world, we were right there fighting with them or against them. using covert methods at minimum. Many times we supplied the actual weaponry.

When everyone is pointing the finger at you, maybe it's time to take a look at yourself.

[BeyondGeography]

142. President Obama reeks of international havoc

No brainier, dude.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

145. Russia: Syria and Ukraine, for starters. N.T.

[Enthusiast]

147. Wouldn't want to say the wrong thing, Manny.

See? http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024674859

[jsr]

164. Either you are with us or you are with the half-naked guy

[politicman]

150. lets lay it out.

Let me start by saying that I cannot stand Putin as much as I couldn't stand Bush.

OK now I have that out of the way, lets get some perspective here shall we:

What has Putin done in this particular issue with Crimea:
1) He inserted troops into Crimea under the pre-text of protecting Russian speaking population there.
2) After controlling Crimea, he instituted a 'vote' for the people to decide whether they wanted to join Russia or not.
3) With his troops there, the vote was always going to be favourable to his country.

(Note: all this was done with no one shot being fired, not one person being killed, only the suspicion that anyone that opposes the vote might mysteriously disappear.)


Now lets see what the Bush did in Iraq:
1) He inserted troops into Iraq under the pre-text of weapons of mass destruction.
2) After bombing Iraq into the stone age, Bush installed first an occupying power and then later a governing council that instituted a 'vote' to decide who becomes the government of Iraq.
3) With U.s Troops there and actively engaging in ongoing fighting in the country, the vote was always going to be favourable to the U.S.

(Note: all this was done whilst U.S troops were still shooting and bombing areas of the country, people were labelled 'terrorists' if critical of the process, and the whole process was policed by U.S troops and contractors who would never allow an anti-U.S government to be elected whilst they were still in the country).



Now, lets recap, Putin sent troops to Crimea and held a vote under influence of his troops, Bush sent a whole army into Iraq, bombed the heck out of it and held a vote whilst his troops were still killing Iraqis nationwide.

Many of you may say that just because Bush did it, that Putin is not justified in doing it to, and I agree with you. The problem is that you cannot have one nation guilty of something then turn around and lecture another nation for doing the very thing that the first nation did.

[ozone_man]

171. +1

I don't draw a huge distinction between Bush and Obama, neocon or neoliberal. Bush put boots on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, while Obama seems to use more covert actions, destabilizing governments, funding 'rebels' ..

This table of world military budgets, where the U.S. outspends Russia 8:1 provides some insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

[PATRICK]

152. Containment of Russia

Certainly the West is entangled in countering or frustrating centuries old Russian needs and desires. It seems to me, rigged vote or no, that none of the players give a damn about the Crimean citizens. "Public support" outside the media and government hoopla is probably non-existent especialy when it comes to taking harsh action to redeliver the Crimean Russian back to the Ukraine.

If Russia wins this it intimidates everyone and advances the Russian empire rebuilding wherever Russians are found. This is similar I suppose to Hitlers beneficent annexing of various chunks of Europe. The rest of the West, I suppose, learned enough from Chamberlain not to SOUND like appeasement, but the results will be the same. Long term, these kind of shakedowns will increases under any dedicated or ambitious Russian regime.

The Ukraine, the government at least, will posture defiance. None of the governments with the possible exception of Putin who after all is giving the majority of Crimeans what they want- is doing anything but bluster indignantly over the failure of THEIR policy toward Russia.

Seeding and taking advantage of chaos has been everyone's game. Far better if actual democratic reform had been the chief and only goal. The rapid collapse of the Soviet Empire left the old lines intact, lines often formed to include a Russian balance. Instead of resolving these future dangers they were instead exploited on all sides and within. One part of the game plan no doubt would have been to overthrow Russia with new oligarchs or weaklings. That didn't happen. And still the posturing goes on.

For any all world leaders who advocate warlike gestures or retaliation sanity calls for global censure and having all their butts hauled to the world court, but the people these clowns profess to represent are unlikely to see that a simple apocalypse for the few will avoid calamity for the world.

[Romulox]

158. But that's *different*! nt

[CJCRANE]

160. Make it the past 12 years

then maybe you have a point.

However, one thing I'm interested in is, how do you feel about Republicans?

[MannyGoldstein]

163. *Republicans* are ignorant.

They ignore facts and history.

The *Republican Party* is a plague.

[hrmjustin]

165. Russia.

[JoePhilly]

167. Next up on wheel of outrage: "Who is more like Hitler, Obama or Putin?"

Hint: Obama.

[Bobbie Jo]

168. lol

(insert offensive, mean-spirited rolling smile guy here)

[JoePhilly]

169. We need a smile guy wearing one of these ...

[Hissyspit]

198. Yes, put words in his mouth that he didn't say.

There's nothing dishonest about that tactic.

[chrisa]

177. The US, and it makes no difference. Situations should be judged separately.

Because the US illegally invaded Iraq does not mean Putin is free to illegally invade Ukraine.

[renegade000]

188. sense!

you know, for the crowd that always chimes in about moral consistency, there's a surprising lack of in this particular case. i really don't understand it.

also, it's not like Russia's recent wars in the past decade have been models of humane action that we should have been emulating this entire time. two wrongs are just two wrongs.

[LanternWaste]

179. Oops... never-mind.

Oops... never-mind. After reading the thread, I realize the question is not asked in sincerity. My mistake... I should have known better by now.

[phleshdef]

187. Who's done more for the international community lately? US or Russia?

We might stick our nose in shit where it doesn't belong, but we also help the rest of the world more than any other country.

[Bonobo]

189. But me hear you said Putin is good n' US are bad!!!

My brain hurts!

[bettyellen]

190. no, it's just Obama that is bad, you silly monkey.

[Bonobo]

191. Didn't your daddy ever tell you you are responsible for your own behavior? nt

[bettyellen]

194. Do you need "your Daddy" for something? Mine's long dead, but thanks.

[Bonobo]

195. Mine too. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

201. MSM and $$$$$$

An on running commercial for NWO, on behalf of the 1%, and the sycophants that glow and grow in it .

[Peacetrain]

203. Russia.. hands down...