What if Putin had been drone killing people in Venezuela for the past 10 years?

[Bonobo]

How do you think that might be perceived?

Kabul, Afghanistan is 7,000 miles away from Washington DC.

Imagine if Russia had a reach that long and a decade plus of killing in South America?

THAT, folks, is what the US does. Now how do you think THAT is perceived around the world?

Do we look a wee bit less incapable of criticizing other countries for military actions against their neighbors with that in mind?

[treestar]

1. Putin has no reason to think

there are any groups in Venezuela who might want to kill Russians in terrorist attacks?

[Bonobo]

5. How long and how far does that excuse go?

There are people that would want to kill Americans in EVERY single country in the world.

When do we decide that that does not justify killing innocent people 7,000 miles away?

It is insanity and you seem to be part of the brainwashing if you don't see that.

[treestar]

66. You do not recognize there are some parts of the world

where Al Qaeda operates? Or, they are evenly distributed throughout the world? Are there no terrorists out there?

[AgingAmerican]

21. It is a hypothetical situation

nt

[treestar]

67. The hypo is meaningless unless it is the same

We are supposed to slam the US for trying to take out AQ. So for Putin to be doing the same thing, the same facts would have to occur. Of course Putin isn't going after Venezuela, there are no significant numbers there in groups working hard on plans to harm the Russians.

[AgingAmerican]

75. Replace 'Venezuela' with any other potential country

...and the obfuscation goes away.

[treestar]

79. The Russians just don't have any claim there is any country trying to harm them.

Not right now. Maybe they'd have a better case with Chechnya (though that's in Russia now, IIRR) as there are terrorist there who have made attacks on Russian soil.

The Ukrainians, not so much. It's just their opinions on economic matters.

[AgingAmerican]

86. My RW brother does that

Takes things literally when he doesn't want to face up, admit or talk about something.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Nice stab at proving the point of the "DU Analysis Code"

Not that I have a dog in the race, just watchin'...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024674859

[Bonobo]

3. I saw that idiotic thread. But listen.

The problem with that OP was that you do indeed have more responsibility for your own country, so any comparison is based on that understanding.

I cannot control nor influence what Russia, India, China do. But as a US citizen, I own the actions of my country in a way that I do not own theirs.

So...we MUST hold ourselves to a higher standard and be more critical.

[NYC_SKP]

23. I would tend to agree. And....

Their bad acts don't justify ours, never did, never will.

[TwilightGardener]

4. If Venezuela harbored terrorists that targeted Russia, I imagine you'd

see some interesting action down there.

[Bonobo]

6. No, I don't think so.

What you WOULD see would be international pressure and diplomacy.

[TwilightGardener]

7. Really? You think Russia does things the RIGHT way, historically?

[Bonobo]

9. No, I think that no one would allow Russia to intervene militarily that far from home

in South America.

THAT is something that only America does now. The WRONG way reserved for us.

[randome]

37. Yet the world allowed Russia into Afghanistan.

I don't think your central point holds up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Marr]

73. It bordered the Soviet Union at that time. /nt

[Thinkingabout]

8. Russia has not been innocent of killings, they may not have used drones but the

Killings occurred. How about getting shot and then having testicles crammed (if male) in your mouth to be returned to your family.

[Bonobo]

10. No one thinks they are innocent.

My point is that we are killing people 7,000 miles away and have been doing so for over a dozen years straight.

That is a whole different ballpark and is truly does NOT seem to have sunk into the heads of many people even here on DU how absolutely shocking that is and how out of scale it is with other countries.

[Thinkingabout]

31. Mileage does not matter and don't know there has not been some deaths which have occurred at the

hands of Russia or USSR which have been 7000 miles away. How many miles do you think bin Laden sent people to kill in the US?
Have you given any thought why some of those killed by drones are being singled out as a target?

[BainsBane]

11. It's been fascinating to find out how many people aren't concerned with war at all

but rather only when the US is waging it. Military intervention by foreign governments must be justified at all costs because the issue isn't opposition to war or foreign invasion but rather to the US. It's like a RW parody of the left. No substance. No concern for principal, only some Freudian loathing toward the national self.

[Fumesucker]

12. Nah, it's more being aware of what utter craven hypocrites we look like

Not all of us are comfortable being seen that way.

[ProSense]

15. "We"? The "utter craven hypocrites" would be the ones justifying war. n/t

[Fumesucker]

17. Wagging the finger at someone else for doing something you just finished doing is hypocritical

It's not like we had any sort of national reconciliation about Iraq or anything.

Else we wouldn't have Dick Cheney on the TV telling us how we need to bomb Russia or whatever.

[BainsBane]

26. If someone wanted to have this discussion outside the context of justifying a military intervention

by Russia, that would be another thing. That the US acted wrongly in Iraq doesn't mean it is right when Russia does it, which is exactly the argument being made here. It shows me that some in fact don't really care about war, international law, or anything at all, other than antipathy for one's own country. I hadn't realized that was an actual ideology. Live and learn.

To say you don't want the US to speak out about the invasion is to say one wants Russia to carry on unabated with its foreign invasions. It is to speak out against the role of international pressure and sanctions--diplomacy-- in order to justify military intervention.

[Fumesucker]

28. The single most powerful moral statement the USA could make against Putin moving into Crimea

Is a statement that will never be made.

I got 98 recs for this OP the other day and only a few people disagreeing with me and they didn't make much sense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024638671

Put Dick and Dubya on trial for Iraq.

Extra points for conviction of war crimes.

[Bonobo]

30. No, that is NOT the argument here. nt

"That the US acted wrongly in Iraq doesn't mean it is right when Russia does it, which is exactly the argument being made here."

Did I say that or even imply it?

[NCTraveler]

58. You won't wag your finger at someone emulating Dick? Really.

I have no problem with our government opposing Dick like actions. Sorry you feel that Dick set a new precedence that must be accepted. Good luck with that. I will continue to oppose Dick like actions.

[Fumesucker]

64. Evidently the government and the American people are fine with what Dick did

If the government and the American people actually had a problem with Dick's actions then he would have been charged and tried as the war criminal he in fact is.

[NCTraveler]

95. "If the government and the American people actually had a problem with Dick's actions "

Last I checked I was an American person and I have a problem with what Dick did. Last I checked an overwhelming majority of the posters here are American persons and have a problem with what Dick did. How in the world do you lump all Americans together like that. Black and white thinking is often easy, it is also often wrong.

[Fumesucker]

101. I said American people not person

The American people and the American government are clearly fine with what Dick did else he would not be on our TVs telling us how to run foreign policy still.

[BainsBane]

24. Exactly

[Bonobo]

16. Did your father or mother never tell you that you can control

what you do but not what others do?

Never too late to learn!

[Doctor_J]

40. MUAHAHAHA!

Military intervention by foreign governments must be justified at all costs because the issue isn't opposition to war or foreign invasion but rather to the US.

Yeah that's it! There have been all sorts of posts at DU - especially by liberals - justifying wars waged by foreign countries.

The collective BOG brain has been shut down.

[Bonobo]

42. If I said the sky was blue, well you know the rest. nt

[Marr]

74. Why not just go straight to "The Blame America First Crowd"?

Conservatives from the other party have already hashed out a whole vocabulary of hate around these leftists you dislike so much. You should look it up.

[BainsBane]

94. Tell me what precisely is leftist about justifying foriegn invasion

By an authoritarian regime that imprisons the political opposition and people who have the audacity to be openly homosexual? I see no signs of leftism, principal, or anything that's remotely rational. What I see is people that support war as long as it isn't waged by the US. My point stands. It is obvious that they have no problem with war or military invasion in violation of international law. In fact, they go out of their way to justify it. I don't have enough respect for the position or those that make it to give it an ideological label, even one of anti-Americanism. My guess is the issue is more psychological than political, which is why I referenced a Freudian loathing of the national self. I choose my words deliberately. I resent your trying to elevate my criticism to that one might give toward an opposing ideology. It is not an ideology because there are no ideas or principal. There is simply a recitation of propaganda. And it most certainly is not a position of the left. Russia hasn't been communist for decades, and there is nothing leftist about the current Russian government. To call the position leftist is truly bizarre. It's justification for Empire and military might. Nothing more.

A couple weeks ago you insisted no one on this site supported Putin. Now your charges is that I am right-wing because I don't support Russia's invasion of a foreign country. I would think it would think those intellectual gymnastics would get tiring after a while. I can't wait to hear the excuses for why Russia deserves the rest of the Ukraine or even Poland. Playing games doesn't make the position any more principled or rational because it is entirely devoid of both.

[Marr]

106. Since I haven't done that, I'll just tell you what's classicly authoritarian instead:

Black and white thinking. Assuming that anyone who is against your own position must be for acting in the opposite direction.

I want us to stay out of this completely. I don't think it's any of our business.

[joshcryer]

13. The USA never had Russia style empire in South America.

So you would have to include that in your analogy, then it just looks like two sorry states with imperialist tendencies.

[Bonobo]

14. No, not Russian style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

[joshcryer]

18. Right, no comparison.

[Bonobo]

19. I didn't compare them.

There is nothing in my OP about US in Central/South America.

You gave live birth to a man of straw and then promptly defeated it.

[joshcryer]

25. You posed a scenario about perceptions of hostility.

I was merely saying that if you're going to pose the scenario about hostile perceptions you might want to actually put the US in the same state that Russia was in for a half century that way we'd have a relative scale of what these perceptions would be.

In that case it would not be seen as anything particularly out of the ordinary. The US put its bases in that region of the world, and likewise if the roles were reversed you'd expect the same for Russia.

I am not "less incapable of criticizing other countries for military actions against their neighbors" because I haven't voted for a war criminal.

[JI7]

20. so it was ok when russia went into afghanistan because it was closer to them ?

[Fumesucker]

22. No..

Although they *did* have enough sense to get out after only nine years.

And look how wonderfully arming the Mujahideen worked for America.

[BlueStreak]

29. Everybody seems to have forgotten the most basic element of this story

Last edited Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:29 AM - Edit history (1)

Putin was not making any moves toward the Ukraine or Crimea until the current regime rose up -- only a few weeks ago -- and overthrew the leader. We are bitching about whether or not Sunday's referendum was legitimate. But I point out that Yanukovych was deposed without benefit of any election. The people in charge of Kiev are not elected. It was a coup.

The point of contention was that Yanukovych wanted to sign an agreement with the Russians for low price energy and others wanted to hook up with the EU. THIS is what precipitated the current crisis. Putin didn't do that.

A more apt hypothetical would be, suppose a bunch of rebels took over the state government in California and physically ran Governor Brown out of the state. And after setting themselves up in Sacramento (without benefit of any election), they announced they were planning to strike a deal to make California part of the People's Republic of China.

That is comparable to what happened with the Ukraine. But you won't hear any news outlet state the obvious.

[newthinking]

32. +100

B B B B..ut, we said the illegitimate government is ok 'cause they like us more than Russia..
And stop complaining about alliances with neo-nazi's and neo-nazis in cabinet positions... don't you know? Russia has neo-nazi's too, and they are the really really bad kind, because they don't like us as much, and our neo-nazi's are friendlier and more democratic (well maybe not democratic, since they were kind of nasty that way, but they really are friendlier, rea..lly)!

[jsr]

36. +1

[snappyturtle]

55. +100 I don't think we want the curtain pulled back on what instigated the

Ukraine "situation".

[treestar]

70. The last part isn't quite right, since the EU isn't a country

They could have made the change through elections, though, and that would have been better. Interesting that on DU you have people posting that we should have a revolution, never thinking that those rising up in the streets can be a minority, getting their way due to their zeal and fervor and the fact others don't fight back to keep the system. Maybe that's why they like the idea of spreading mistrust in the government.

[kwassa]

81. Poor analogy, because it is inaccurate.

Putin has been steadily trying to influence events in the Ukraine for a long time. He held out various subsidies to the near-bankrupt Ukraine as a carrot before he applied the stick, as he wants the Ukraine under Russian influence, not the EU.

Yanukocych is an epic thief, from many reports, stealing billions from his own government, bragging about his own corruption to other leaders. He was overthrown in a coup, but he ran a wildly corrupt government.

As to your California analogy, to make it accurate, it would be as if Governor Brown was trying to make a deal to become part of China, after stealing the state treasury blind, and the state legislature and citizens in the street rose up and threw him out.

[BlueStreak]

82. Uhhh, Ukraine is part of the former USSR, next door neighbors with Russia, and

has a hell of a lot of citizens who consider themselves Russian. Why do we think we have the right to sponsor a coup? And why would we expect him to do nothing in response?

[kwassa]

83. We didn't sponsor a coup, unless those were very special cookies.

There are many parts of the former USSR who are very happy to be no part of the Russian empire now. The Ukraine is one of those.

Many citizens speak Russian, but nowhere near a majority, except in the Eastern part of the country.

[BlueStreak]

84. The Ukraine is not monolithic, and yes, the west was pushing the EC connection

I call that sponsoring a coup. You can call it whatever you like.

[kwassa]

85. Let us clarify terms. The west part of Ukraine was sponsoring a coup?

or "the west" in the sense of western European and America were sponsoring a coup?

[BlueStreak]

87. The west, meaning the US and Europe. They have been working to separate

the former USSR states continuously since the breakup of the USSR. This situation presented itself as a prime opportunity. The Ukraine economy was becoming a basket case. The government wanted to accept support from Russia, Those who overthrew the government wanted to hook up with the EC.

Jeez, this was only about a month ago. Is our memory really that short? That is what precipitated this event. One can certainly argue that Russia was pushing their solution. And why shouldn't they? As I said, there are lots of natural affinities and they want to keep a Russia-friendly states on their borders as much as possible. We would do exactly the same thing.

[kwassa]

88. Where is proof that the US and/or Europe had any hand in the current government change in

the Ukraine? Direct proof? Show us the proof, please. Anything.

As a matter of policy, it would be in our interest as a nation to cultivate democracy and good relations with any of the former Soviet satellite states.

[BlueStreak]

89. The proof is prima facia. The dispute that caused the overthrow was exactly this.

It was a choice between the EC and Russia. Do you think it was about something else? Why do you think the Ukraine people took to the streets for weeks of protests before Yanukovych fled the country?

If you are asking me to provide you with back channel communications, obviously I cannot do that, but we have seen with the Wikileaks and Snowden revelations that this stuff is ongoing on a daily basis.

[kwassa]

90. Thanks, you have no direct proof. I am not surprised.

You ASSUME a direct involvement, but have no evidence.

The people of the Ukraine, in a mass popular revolt, opposed the official policy favoring Russia, but preferred to align with the EU. We didn't instigate that; this is the mass popular point of view. Looking at the two different economic systems, it is not hard to see why.

[BlueStreak]

91. It takes 2 to tango

Obviously they were in contact with the west. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any choice available.

You seem to have a very naive view of how foreign affairs are conducted. Did you pay no attention to any of the stuff that was revealed by Wikileaks?

[go west young man]

92. You obviously haven't seen the Nuland cookie handout video

or heard her leaked phone call...or checked up on anything to do with the NeoCon push. The direct proof is all over the internet if you want to look for it.

[kwassa]

98. Like I said, there is no direct proof, and you don't have it, either.

Cookies don't overthrow governments. If that is the best you got ...

This Neocon push is a bizarre conspiracy theory for a group that doesn't exist. Just because this conspiracy is published all over the Internet doesn't make it true. All kinds of crap gets republished all the time.

[go west young man]

99. Your in denial.

It's not a conspiracy theory. However, the NeoCons have never stopped conspiring to make themselves relevant and rich with your tax dollars. Major publications all over the world are putting out stories on the NeoCons interests in Ukraine and Poland. Halliburton just commenced with it's first fracking project in Poland. Stay in your bubble where it's nice and cosy obviously you don't want to do the simple research and frankly I won't waste my time providing links for someone who has no interest in seeking out the obvious.

[kwassa]

100. It is a conspiracy theory. That's all that it is. You have no proof.

because there is no proof.

[go west young man]

102. There are plenty of articles on the subject

currently in the Good Reads section of DU. Enlighten yourself. Even though your laziness is a touch annoying, I'll throw in the towel and provide you a link just the same to get you to quit being a distraction from the issue. http://www.globalresearch.ca/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/5370405

[kwassa]

103. Global Research is a crackpot far left conspiracy site. Zero credibility.

The website describes itself as an "independent research and media organization." Globalresearch.ca takes pride in being a reliable "alternative news" source serving as a major repository of a broad range of "news articles, in-depth reports and analysis on issues which are barely covered by the mainstream media" (such as the New World Order). Its politico-economic stance is strongly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, anti-militarist, "internationalist but anti-globalization." Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.

While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from "Russia Today", along with other unreliable and/or open sources.

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, Globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda. The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

[go west young man]

104. So you think the architects of the Iraq war just went away and faded into nothing?

[kwassa]

105. The chief perps of that war left office.

The idea that supposed neocons in the State Department can manipulate the Obama and Secretary of State Clinton is beyond crazy. This is one stupid thesis.

[go west young man]

107. It's a theory...that's well proven..

a thesis is a dissertation or document supporting a theory.

[kwassa]

108. no, no proof. none. zero. zip. nada.

[go west young man]

109. You must be living in a box.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2014/02/f-eu-neocons-and-neonazi-ukrainian-coup
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/03/1281920/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-What-the-neoconservative-hangers-on-want-from-Ukraine-crisis
http://www.alternet.org/world/5-ukraine-solutions-pushed-neocons-could-provoke-catastrophe
https://portside.org/2014-02-24/neocons-and-ukraine-coup
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/is-president-obama-tough-_b_4904633.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2014/03/britain-and-ukraine

Excerpt from the Economist:

The United States is centrally involved. It oversaw the removal of Yanukovich, and its neocons are desperately trying to develop an excuse for war with the Russians. Neocon former presidential candidate John McCain visited Ukraine and addressed the demonstrations in Kiev. As did Victoria Nuland, assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs in the US state department. Nuland is most famous for her recently leaked phone conversation about micromanaging regime change in Ukraine, in which she declared 'fuck the EU.' Her husband is neocon Robert Kagan, who was co-founder of the Project for the New American Century, the ideological parent of the Bush/Blair war on Iraq.

Please enjoy a nice plate of crow for dinner inside of your box.

[kwassa]

110. Um, the Economist is de-bunking your quote, not supporting it.

The entire article is a point by point refutation of Lindsey German, convenor of the far left "Stop the War" who sets out ten things to remember about the current crisis.

You quoted her, not the Economist. The blogger Blighty, for the Economist, proceeds to tear her ideas to little pieces.

Most of your other links basically quote the same Robert Parry piece from Consortium News; in other words, several links are the same links. The Parry piece makes all kinds of wild allegations without supporting any of them. Where is his evidence? He doesn't supply it.

The Huffington Post piece also doesn't support your neocon viewpoint, either, and is in fact much more moderate in its analysis.

[woo me with science]

33. K&R

[eridani]

34. So, what exactly are the Russian equivalents of--

--Northcom, Southcon, Centcom and Africom?

[BlueStreak]

35. How many military bases does Russia maintain in Europe, South America, Africa, North America?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases

Russia has bases in 6 countries -- 5 of which are former USSR states

Kyrgyzstan
Ukraine
Transnistria
Armenia
Tajikistan
Syria

The US has bases in:

Japan
Germany
United Kingdom
Italy
Turkey
Bulgaria
Israel
Kosovo
Kuwait
South Korea
Afghanistan
Australia
Bahrain
British Indian Ocean Territory
Brazil
Cuba
Djibouti
Greece
Guam (US Territory)
Spain
United Arab Emirates
Greenland
Kyrgyzstan
Netherlands
Oman
Pakistan
Portugal
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Singapore

Plus we claim these territories all over the world:

Guam
Northern Mariana Islands
Puerto Rico
United States Virgin Islands
American Samoa
Bajo Nuevo Bank
Baker Island
Howland Island
Jarvis Island
Johnston Atoll
Kingman Reef
Midway Islands
Wake Island
Navassa Island
Serranilla Bank

[KoKo]

41. Recommend..!

[840high]

77. ...

[JoePhilly]

38. Venezualian terrorists flew planes into buildings in Moscow?

I bet they do more than send drone strikes.

[Bonobo]

43. Afghanistan terrorists were behind 9/11?

[MNBrewer]

45. The Taliban government of Afghanistan was completely unconnected to the plot?

[JoePhilly]

46. Forget it, he's rolling.

[Bonobo]

48. Ha ha, nice try but you appear to have believed the hijackers were Afghanis.

That must be awfully embarrassing.

[JoePhilly]

50. Na, just based there, and supported by the Taliban

Most of us know this. And we also know Putin would be doing a lot more than drone strikes if something similar happened.

[Bonobo]

51. So why did you ask if the Venezuelans had "flown" into Moscow buildings?

Sure looks like you stuck a big old foot in your mouth there, partner.

[JoePhilly]

54. To point out your premise was silly.

A point you continue to prove.

[Bonobo]

56. Lol

Sure, I believe you, Joe!

[Skidmore]

72. Yeesh. If you couldn't read the implied "if" at the beginning

of Joe's subject line, it doesn't speak to reading comprehension skills. He was making a satirical parallel hypothetical. Point well made, Joe.

[Bonobo]

47. The poster I responded to implied the 9/11 terrorists were Afghanis. nt

[JoePhilly]

53. Your entire premise was silly.

[snooper2]

39. He lets other countries do his dirty work- even imports slaves

Well, I should say lets North Korea import slaves into Siberia to cut his trees

[MNBrewer]

44. That reminds me of what my mom always said

"Just because they do it doesn't mean you should."

I'm opposed to our wars and drone murders. I'm also opposed to Russia picking its neighbors apart.

The one doesn't justify or nullify the other.

[Sunlei]

49. We don't have to shut-up as a country because of past injustices to wards people!

The leaders in the 'Putin issue' are the EU and the Ukraine people. Putin's thinks he can keep 'his neighbors' under his economic control forever. Putin (and his big money resource investors) don't want Ukraine to deal with the EU. A lot of those same investors have America bent over to corporate interests.

[brooklynite]

52. So, better to send troops in?

Or abandon our military engagement immediately and let the country collapse?

There are no easy solutions here.

[NCTraveler]

57. Didn't Russia spend a "little" time in Afghanistan?

I really don't get what you are saying. The US can't take a stance on another countries actions because of our own past actions. That is pretty foolish and goes completely against the whole concept of a Democratic Republic. You know, the great ability of the people to petition and change their government over time. How long do we have to wait after we are out of Afghanistan before we are allowed to criticize other countries empire building? Me thinks we simply have some anti-Obama stuff going on here.

[Bonobo]

59. Not what I am saying.

I'm just suggesting there is a massive disconnect and that most Murkans just don't fully appreciate just how bad they look from an objective POV.

Holding up a mirror for those that CAN handle it. Many apparently can not.

[NCTraveler]

61. I think we can handle it very well.

I don't see the disconnect as you do. Probably because I think Putin is a pretty evil man. I think your mirror needs a little adjusting as your thought process goes completely against the concept of a Democratic Republic. I appreciate that you feel only a select few such as yourself can "handle" it, but you are wrong. We can all see it, handle it, and also look at the big picture. Sometimes we need to make ourselves feel bigger so we act like we are strong and those who disagree simply can't "handle" it. It is more of a personal thing than anything else.

[Fumesucker]

65. That's because you see everything through the lens of how it reflects on Obama

It wouldn't matter who was in the Oval Office for a lot of us, we would feel the same way.

[NCTraveler]

97. "That's because you see everything through the lens of how it reflects on Obama"

Paging Dr. Frist....Paging Dr. Frist.....Someone's psychological decoder ring is broken.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. At least the Russkis were smart enough to get out after they lost.

We're still hanging around trying to make it look like we didn't really lose.

[NCTraveler]

96. "We're still hanging around trying to make it look like we didn't really lose. "

So much truth in that. It is so sad to see what we are doing. I fully agree with you. There are people living in delusion who need to realize that their goals in Afghanistan are not based in reality. Since they are not based in reality, they will never be achieved. I would truly like to admit defeat/victory and get out of their completely. I would absolutely cheer Obama if he stood on the front of a carrier right now claiming mission accomplished and got us out of there.

[LanternWaste]

60. I don't feel ethically constrained to criticize either the US invasion of Iraq, or the Anschluss

I don't feel ethically constrained to criticize either the US invasion of Iraq, or the Anschluss Moscow is currently engaged in-- as they are two wholly separate actions, neither of which I condone.

However, I can see how many people would use that as a rationale to berate criticism against Moscow.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. And, the drone wars? Are you ethically constrained to criticise that?

[Rex]

62. Well since Venezuela is hated by the GOP, I imagine they would be loving it.

nt.

[Doctor_J]

63. But they would also get to huff and puff about how we need to attack Putin

win-win.

[Rex]

93. Yes they would be talking out of both ends, a standard for GOPukers.

I wonder if they've been forced to put McCain in restraints yet? McCain and Kristol seem to want to get their war on. More 'sacrifice'.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. The Pentagon would go to congress for more money to close the "drone gap".

[840high]

76. kick

[EX500rider]

78. I think if it was Al Qaeda we'd be supplying them w/ targeting coordinates.

[KoKo]

80. ...1

[woo me with science]

111. kick