Explain this wingnuts; VT rated as one of the worst states to do business in: Unemployment 4%

[cali]

Unemployment fell again in Vermont. And even in the depths of the great recession, it never rose very far. Virtually every business organization says that Vermont is one of the worst places to own in business in, one of the worst places to start a business in and one of worst states for high business taxes and onerous state regulations. They claim all that leads to high unemployment. VT doesn't have gas or oil or any valuable minerals. It has a harsh and unforgiving climate. What it does have and has had for quite some time, is liberals leading state government- even when we had a republican gov for years, we largely had a veto proof dem legislature. What it does have are strict environmental laws, which have kept the state not only fairly healthy, but beautiful with a working landscape. What it does have, are a big chunk of people who have started business with a different ethos and model from the typical American one that is almost solely about profit:

So how come Vermont, if it's just so damned awful a place for business, also has one of the highest rates of people starting business? It has home grown companies like Burton, Green Mountain Coffee/Keurig, Ben and Jerry's, Jasper Hill, Seventh Generation, Gardener's Supply and high tech industries like Dealer.com, MyWebGrocer and BioTek Instruments. No, these aren't megacorporations, but they provide actual good employment,

So business organizations continue to lie their asses off. Doesn't seem to be hurting Vermont much.

GARDENER'S SUPPLY has long been a socially responsible business, which we've expressed by supporting employee volunteerism, sourcing sustainable products and donating 8 percent of our profits back to the community. To solidify our commitment, we have become a certified B Corp, a relatively new corporate designation that combines bottom-line profits and social responsibility.

What's in the name? The B is for benefit, and it's Corp as in corporation. As a B Corp – benefit corporation – we believe that business can be a source for good by serving shareholders and society. How a company serves society can take many forms, including environmental stewardship, service to those in need, sustainability and more. Like other companies with B Corp certification, we are change-makers that use the power of business to solve social and environmental problems.

<snip>
http://www.gardeners.com/B-Corporation/8587,default,pg.html

<snip>

It’s hard to think of any two states more different than Texas and Vermont. For one, Texas has gushers of oil and gas, while Vermont has, well, maple syrup. As early as the 1940s, Texas surpassed Vermont in per capita income. Vermont had virtually nothing going for it—no energy resources except firewood, no industry except some struggling paper mills and failing dairies. By 1981, per capita income in Vermont had fallen to 17 percent below that of Texas. That year, the state’s largest city elected a self-described “democratic socialist,” Bernie Sanders, to be its mayor. Vermont, it might seem, was on the road to serfdom and inevitable failure.

But then a great reversal in the relative prosperity of the two states happened, as little Vermont started getting richer faster than big Texas. By 2001, Texas lost its lead over Vermont in per capita income. By 2012, despite its oil and gas boom and impressive job creation numbers, Texas was 4.3 percent poorer than Vermont in per capita income.

<snip>
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_may_2014/features/oops_the_texas_miracle_that_is049289.php?page=all


http://taxfoundation.org/article/2014-state-business-tax-climate-index

http://www.bobthegreenguy.com/politics/the-ten-worst-states-for-business/

[kracer20]

1. Good Question

I have to think that big businesses think it is a bad place due to the fact that there aren't hordes of workers standing in line willing to work for minimum wage.

[n2doc]

2. Sure it is

If you are one of those grifter companies that move to wherever the most subsidies and bribes are, and don't give a damn about workers because "they are all interchangeable". If you are a regular company making good products, one that relies on an educated, happy workforce, then not so much.

[MrScorpio]

3. The American definition for "Business..."

Is to make OBSCENELY excessive profits on both the backs of workers and the environment… That's why they say that the state is bad for "business."

Reality, on the other hand, dictates that good business doesn't have to make either suffer.

[DebJ]

4. Pennsyvania's state house will only pass 'business friendly' legislation. The result:

Pa is one of the primary graying states, where everyone who wants a job has to LEAVE the state to get one.

Maryland, on the other hand, leans toward consumer-based legislation (or it did the 48 years I lived there),
and doesn't have this scenario.

You think they'd wake up and smell the coffee...oh no, wait, someone is buying all their coffee for them for free!

[Atman]

5. Interesting. No industry except maple syrup?

I drive to Vermont virtually every weekend. This weekend we'll be cutting through the entire state, South to North, ending up in Sutton, Quebec. We're always amazed the people actually live there! It's achingly beautiful in places, and Appalachian-desolate in others. But the harsh climate makes for rugged, resolute, hard-working people. And you'll find lots of windmills and solar panels. Many of the small towns seem to have nothing at all, you can't figure out where the people go to work...there is a gas station, a propane dealer and a diner...what supports these places? What the article didn't mention is TOURISM. I don't what the percentage is, but Vermont has more ski resorts than just about any state in the union. Ski resorts aren't cheap, and most of them have converted to year-round resorts with golf, water parks, mountain biking, etc. The people that travel from Connecticut and New York and New Jersey to visit these resorts are stopping for gas, for liquor (at the few state-run liquor stores you can find), food, and of course, $90 lift tickets. They stop for factory tours for everything from breweries to Jerry's Ice Cream. We never come home to Connecticut without a carload of local cheeses, smoked meats from the local "Guns, Liquor, Deli" store. We've also spend a lot of money on white water rafting trips.

I just heard a report on NPR the other day that Vermont ranks near the top (it might actually have been #1) in FITNESS. People up there don't have much else to do except hike, ski, raft, and chop wood. When the snow finally melts in June you run outside and make the most of it until ski season starts again. Maybe what Vermont has going for it are the intangibles. The bean counters can't figure out how a state can succeed without billowing factories and heavy industry, yet Vermont has a thriving arts scene, some of the most beautiful lakes and mountains in the U.S., and a work-ethic you won't find in too many other places. Because many of them really have to work to survive. Chop wood, sell some antiques, be nice to the tourists.

To be rainbows and unicorns about it, I find Vermont to be almost a state of mind. Resilient, unique, and while there isn't much there people flock to the state from all over the northeast just to hang out at a small riverside lodge, or vacation at a huge resort. I've been to Tahoe and out west, and while it's beautiful out there, I am always impressed at the beauty of Vermont by comparison. And I guess there is good money in cheese, maple syrup, skiing and golf.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

13. Artisans too.

They're not just chopping that wood, they're making it into some of the most beautiful woodworking around, some stuff that even leaves Amish crafting in the dust, and Amish-made stuff is incredible enough as it is.

[Atman]

23. No kidding! Fantastic arts scene.

We did the Rock River Arts Tour a few years ago. You start at the tiny old town hall with one piece from each artists on display, then they give you a map...you drive around the mountains, over covered bridges, all over the surrounding towns to each artist's studio. Wood workers, metal workers, painters, whatever. You not only get to see their art, but their workspace as well. Plus the beautiful scenery.

I have to say, though, most of these artists fall into two groups: the hard-core working in a barn, raising a few goats or something while they paint or create sculpture -- and the very wealthy who moved up from NY, bought 150 acres of cheap farmland and don't actually need to make an income. They set up dream studios and paint all day. Good for them. That's my dream, too. Just find an old shack in the mountains, set up my yurt and go off the grid!

[Earth_First]

15. Vermont also has a thriving microbrewery industry.

We know first hand, our honeymoon last year to Vermont was built around it.

Vermont is largely tourism.

...and there's nothing wrong with that.

[mountain grammy]

16. Sounds a lot like Colorado except we're bigger and have a higher population

which also means we are ripe for the corporate pickings. Progressives have made headway, but we keep bumping into the right wing wall. Tourism always has been our backbone, with our great skiing and pleasant summers.
There is a real push to scale back the fracking frackers, but they sue for more.

When I lived in CT, Vermont was our favorite place to visit.

[hack89]

6. That 4% was before IBM's layoffs

IBM represents 25% of all manufacturing jobs in a state.

http://www.wcax.com/story/24839184/layoffs-underway-at-ibm-essex-junction

Vermont's growth will be hampered by an aging workforce and loss of population they have had zero growth and actually lost population last year. That does not bode well for the future. Texas at least will have immigration fuel population growth to provide labor and consumers.

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/viewart/20130213/NEWS07/302130017/Experts-Vermont-population-loss-challenge-economic-growth

Texas has a huge and diverse economy while Vermont has the smallest Gross State Product (GSP) in America. When a single company, IBM, represents 25% of all manufacturing jobs in a state, you know you have a problem. When Government spending is the top contributor to GSP followed by real estate then you have a problem.

Vermont is a great state to live but they cannot compete with New Hampshire or Massachusetts.

[cali]

9. Vermont has a tiny manufacturing base, so it's not going to make much of a difference

sorry, but you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

I'll bet anything that Vermont's unemployment raise doesn't rise do to the IBM layoffs.

[hack89]

10. You are trying to compare a tiny economy to the world's 14th largest

and somehow make a meaningful point. The fact of the matter is Vermont is barely hanging on with a declining, aging population and a one dimensional economy that is dependent on government spending and real estate.

It doesn't take much intelligence to know what state has the brighter future.

[cali]

12. no I'm not. That wasn't the obvious point of the OP, hon.

Try rereading the title line.

Here are some facts for you, my dear friend:

Texas has a low rate of high school graduates, a huge growing underclass, an imperiled and shit sucking environment and some of the worst laws impacting women's reproductive rights in the nation. It has crazy right wing religious thugs running the state, and oooh, a fucking terrible drought and water problem.

Vermont just hanging on?

Nope, sorry, by every statistic, from health to unemployment to business creation, to high school graduation rates to clean water and clean air, VT is in a lot better shape than most states.

And the TX comparison was made in the Washington Monthly comparison. Take it up with the author.

[hack89]

17. Here are the economic forecasts for both states - I will let the facts speak for themselves

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/update/reg/2014/1401.cfm

http://newenglandcouncil.com/assets/VT-NEEP-FALL-2013.pdf

[cali]

24. The facts do speak for themselves, dear:

VT: Healthiest State in the Country, highest highest high school graduation rate, least polluted, greenest state, 4% unemployment, higher median income than TX.

THOSE ARE FACTS. TODAY. AND THEY CONTINUE A NEAR 30 YEAR TREND.

People have been making your type of claims for nearly all that time

Right wingers are those that make the claim. You are in fitting company.

[hack89]

26. Can't argue with all caps logic. You win.

is this such a big deal that you had to so rude and insulting? Why couldn't it have been simply a polite discussion on a discussion board? People like you make DU really suck.

[cali]

27. you were the one that started out rude. Oh, and only one sentence was in caps

Polite? You weren't even close to that. I responded in like. You were arrogant and unpleasant and I gave it back.

Classic hypocritical, dish it out and screech when you get it dished back.

[hack89]

29. Disagreeing with you is not rude

go look at my initial response - not a single attack, not a single comment on your intelligence or political views.

You responded with "sorry, but you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about."

That was your initial response. First thing out of your mouth was an insult because I had the nerve to disagree with you.

[cali]

30. You didn't just disagree with me.

You were snotty and arrogant.

[hack89]

32. Then pull the quotes out of my post - show me anything that hints of a personal attack.

It was a simple recitation of the facts as I knew them.

[joeglow3]

71. He really wasn't

[valerief]

34. I don't understand what *fact* you're disagreeing with in the post you're responding to. nt

[hack89]

35. The notion that VT's economy is actually doing that well

and can be compared in any meaningful way to Texas. As a New Englander I would rather live in Vt but I also understand very well the local business climate. VT is a tiny, relatively weak economy with demographic problems that cloud future economic growth. It is doing well now because every state is doing well compared to the last few years as America emerges from the recession.

Yes Texas is a regulatory and environmental mess - but they have the 14th largest economy in the world and they have all the elements in place for sustained economic growth. VT does not.

[valerief]

38. So the average Texan is doing better than the average Vermonter? Or the average

Texan billionaire is doing better than the average Vermont billionaire?

[jeff47]

60. California would like to remind you that it exists.

You're trying to use "largest economy in the world" as the metric to show low-tax, low-regulation Texas is doing better.

Your theory kinda runs into a problem when high-tax, high-regulation California is the 9th largest economy.

[hack89]

65. I am not saying Texas has the model economy

I am saying that comparing VT to Texas is meaningless. That is all.

[jeff47]

76. I'm using those same metrics.

The same metrics you are using to claim Vermont is doomed also apply to California. And California wins that comparison with Texas, without the factors you claim make VT vs TX meaningless.

[hack89]

84. California has a huge diverse economy and a steady influx of new labor

Just like Texas. I wouldn't compare CA to Vermont either

[NewJeffCT]

40. Texas has been proclaimed the state of the future

for upwards of 40 years now. You can go back to the 60s and 70s when a lot of those manufacturing jobs started moving from union states in New England and the rest of the Northeast to "right to work" states in the South and Southwest.

Yet, despite this 40+ year migration, wages remain low in these states in the South and Southwest, people are less healthy and more poorly educated. And, the states in the Northeast remain better places to live with healthier and better educated residents who get paid more.

[hack89]

44. I agree to a certain degree

MA, CT and NH have done very well. VT lags them and RI (my state) is even worse.

I have never said that Texas is a better place to live - I specifically said exactly the opposite several time. I just think VT's economy is not the one to hold up as a model. It is tiny, too dependent on government spending (number one contributor to GSP) and has an aging declining population that will hinder future growth.

[cali]

48. you are just wrong.

RI doesn't rank anywhere near as high as vermont is all kinds of important metrics- from health to unemployment to high school graduation rates.

Ri's unemployment is (more caps coming) THE HIGHEST IN THE ENTIRE NATION.

It's 9.2%

And you keep bizarrely claiming that Vermont with 4% unemployment and better in every quality of life metric is lagging RI?

http://www.providencejournal.com/business/content/20140317-r.i.s-unemployment-rate-highest-in-u.s..ece

Weird and disqualifies you from speaking with any authority on this subject.

Sorry, but 4% unemployment vs 9.2%?

Oh, and RI only has about 1 million people.

[hack89]

49. "RI (my state) is even worse." Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote?

MA, CT and NH have done very well. VT lags them and RI (my state) is even worse.

calm down and pay attention.

[cali]

53. CT's unemployment rate is 7.2%, almost twice as high as Vermont's

MA and NH also have higher unemployment rates.

You are simply wrong. period.

[hack89]

55. They also have better economies and higher per capita income.

I wasn't discussing employment rates. I was discussing overall economies.

Employment rates are one of many economic indicators - and not necessarily the best one. MA, CT and RI will always have higher unemployment rates because they also have large urban centers with concentrated poor minority populations - do you deny that non-white populations have higher unemployment rates than whites? VT is 95% white and it's largest city has a population of 42,000. The demographics are completely different.

[cali]

67. you are determined to twist the gist of my op.

it was simple. you know that. it's right in the title line.

[hack89]

69. So employment rates are the only meaningful economic indicator?

because that is what is in your title line.

And if they are such a good state to do business in, why is government spending the largest contributor to GSP - shouldn't it be an actual commercial sector?

[hack89]

57. North Dakota, Nebraska, South Dakota and Utah all have lower unemployment rates than VT

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

what does that say about their economies?

[cali]

66. wow. you mean out of 50 states, there are 4 states with lower unemployment

rates?

Fracking and oil accounts for some of that.

Hardly my point, in any case.

[hack89]

68. So employment rates by themselves tell us nothing about the health of an economy?

no shit.

So tell me why that 4% rate in VT is so meaningful.

What is your case? That VT has a more robust and healthy economy than Texas? Is that really your point?

[pangaia]

85. Hack89, I have to agree with cali that you were the first to get a little 'edgy'.

[hack89]

86. Pull out the quotes then. I asked him and he refused

go look at my initial response - not a single attack, not a single comment on his intelligence or political views.

He responded with "sorry, but you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about."

That was his initial response. First thing out of his mouth was an insult because I had the nerve to disagree with him.

[tofuandbeer]

78. Now that you mention it, I do recall those claims being made several years ago. Rock on VT!

[jeff47]

59. Forecasts are not facts. They are educated guesses.

And people have been forecasting doom in Vermont and paradise in Texas for decades. Hasn't quite happened yet. In either case.

As for facts, if your theory about IBM's effect on unemployment is correct, how come you aren't posting the current unemployment numbers for both states? Vermont's numbers should be terrible if you are correct.

Probably because it's 4.5% in Vermont and 6.2% in Texas.

Kinda odd that Texas has 2% higher unemployment if your theory is correct...

[hack89]

70. I have never said that employment rate is my criteria for judging the two

common sense says it cannot be. Once again, VT has a tiny non-diverse economy where the largest contributor to GSP is state spending. It has an aging declining population and no manufacturing base to speak of (IBM represents 25% of all manufacturing jobs). It has no urban centers with concentrated poverty. It lags it's neighbors in productivity and income. Comparing Texas to VT is meaningless. My only point.

[jeff47]

75. Except all those factors should result in a high unemployment rate.

Especially since all those factors have been true for decades. So if they were the disaster you claim, it would have already hit the state and we'd see a higher unemployment.

[hack89]

87. A constrained labor force would keep unemployment low

plus an older nearly all white labor force would not have large numbers of young non-white workers that skew unemployment figures in neighboring states.

I am not claiming VT is a disaster. I am stating that they have problems that will damper future growth.

[toby jo]

21. +1

Went to college in Vermont. It's pristine. Great experience. Also known for its communes and liberal outlook. Vermont will outpace TX easy, in my book.

[cali]

14. that bright and shiny Texas future

More of this. A lot more. Yay. Not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024683740

[brentspeak]

42. You seem to like Texas' union-busting, low income, plutocratic economy

Why does that not come as a surprise?

[hack89]

46. No - there is a reason I live in a strong pro-union state

just pointing out that of all the states to compare Texas to, Vermont is not the best choice.

[Atman]

47. I don't think there is any good comparison to Texas.

A total shithole giving away the farm, so to speak, just to get anyone, anyone, to start a business so Rick Perry can tout the numbers in his campaign ads. Vermont is at least a progressive state. Texas is a regressive state.

[hack89]

50. I would pick VT over Texas as a place to live and raise a family in a heart beat.

but I also know that it would be difficult for me to find a job with similar pay there. I would pick MA or NH over VT.

[Atman]

52. Part of what makes NE a good place to work...

The states are all so small, you can live in a tax-free state like NH, but still commute to MA. Of course, the taxes are reciprocal...if you live in one, you have to file a tax return for the other. No escaping it. I used to live in MA but worked in CT. Tax time sucked because you had to file three returns. But still, this is one of the few places where you can visit six states in one day and still be home by dinner!

As far as pay in VT, you're right...there is no one to pay you. That's why I said I'd be happy to be an old man greeter at the mountains. You don't need a lot of money to live well in VT, you just need a change of attitude.

[freebrew]

11. Not just IBM...

companies like Solectron, Flextronics, maybe companies you haven't heard about. They make PC boards on contract basis. Those companies merged and moved all of their production to Asia.

I used to work for a company that made those machines. There was a lot of electronics mfg in Tx. Now it seems not so much.

[Pholus]

7. 4% unemployment means not enough desperation...

which means wages will be too high. Not good for a profit-minded CEO.

"Ideal" environments for business generally means not so much for the worker.

[marble falls]

8. Just another inconvenient truth.

[kelliekat44]

18. I think Vermont put the rumor out to the grifters out. They value their workers and environment. n

[Demo_Chris]

19. I suspect this is an apples and oranges thing...

In that Vermont might well be a terrible place to start a business, while still being an attractive place to live and work. The two are related but not connected. I can, however, talk about starting a business in Texas. To begin...

Getting your state business license takes about five minutes. Meaning that, from the time you say to yourself, 'I think I want to work for myself' to the time you are legally and officially doing so with a Texas business number, is about five minutes. It could not be easier. And when it comes to paying your taxes or managing other business issues, the state is waiting to help. The seemingly have teams, all over Texas, just waiting noaround to walk you through whatever maze you find yourself in. And unlike some other states I have experienced, when there is a mistake or question, it's no big deal. They'll bend like a pretzel to help in any way they can.

So why is Texas unemployment so high compared to Vermont? I can only speculate. Let's look at Vermont. It's a small state with a tiny (600k), 96% white population. Vermont's population is, in fact, the second 'whitest' and second OLDEST population in America, as well as being the least religious. The state itself, despite the claims in the OP, has comparatively little economic activity, ranking 34th in terms of population adjusted GDP.

The main businesses within Vermont seem to be tourism, agriculture (milk, timber, syrup), IBM (which alone provides 25% of Vermont's manufacturing jobs), and 'captive insurance --with Vermont falling right after Bermuda and the Cayman Islands as the world's home for captive insurance companies. Vermont has about 300k people working out of a population of 600k, and the median income is normal.

Hopefully by now the real reason for Vermont's stability and 'prosperity' are self evident. If not, in brief, the entire state would be like a single city anywhere else, but in this case it's a company town. There is actually nothing particularly interesting at all going on there.

[cali]

28. look, comparing VT and TX was hardly the thrust of what I posted

I happened to include a passage that did that from the Washington Monthly. My point was that the business community rates VT very poorly when it actually performs quite well.

And small or not Vermont is a state with the traditional structure of a state. Are you now going to argue that another dozen states don't really count as states, for economic purposes, because they're small? Yes, there are huge differences in scale that aren't at all insignificant. I'm not denying that for a second

[Demo_Chris]

61. You are comparing the unemployment rate and economic climate of Vermont to other states...

And claiming that it is Liberal policies which account for Vermont's relatively good economy. I was simply providing perspective. I will be blunt...

Vermont is a tiny state with the highest corporate costs in America. They have ONE major company accounting for 25% of their manufacturing jobs and if that company leaves they are screwed. Their economy is based on that, farming, tourism, government employment, and the retirement income of their huge elderly population. They don't have an illegal immigrant problem, they essentially don't have any minorities at all (and they institutionalized poverty they are still struggling to overcome). To put it into perspective, Texas has three times as many illegal immigrants as Vermont has citizens total. That kind of thing MATTERS when you talk about unemployment, assistance costs, crime, stretched government resources, infrastructure costs, and the number of jobs you need to create. Vermont is doing well despite their anti-business environment, not because of it. It's called privilege.

[jeff47]

77. If your claims were true, then why is VT doing better than NH?

NH is more-or-less the political opposite of VT, with all the rest of the factors the same. Yet VT is doing better.

[Demo_Chris]

80. Probably because a state's poitical leaning has virtually nothing to do with it. nt

[DiverDave]

82. So, the VT

model wont work any where else but...Vermont?

Gotta disagree, the sustainability and livability of the VT model would work anywhere.
Nice chamber of commerce talking points tho.

I rather like the idea of poking the VT story into the eye of the god damn
corporatist's.
Chaps their asses, I bet.

[ProSense]

36. Which

Getting your state business license takes about five minutes. Meaning that, from the time you say to yourself, 'I think I want to work for myself' to the time you are legally and officially doing so with a Texas business number, is about five minutes. It could not be easier. And when it comes to paying your taxes or managing other business issues, the state is waiting to help. The seemingly have teams, all over Texas, just waiting noaround to walk you through whatever maze you find yourself in. And unlike some other states I have experienced, when there is a mistake or question, it's no big deal. They'll bend like a pretzel to help in any way they can.

So why is Texas unemployment so high compared to Vermont? I can only speculate. Let's look at Vermont. It's a small state with a tiny (600k), 96% white population. Vermont's population is, in fact, the second 'whitest' and second OLDEST population in America, as well as being the least religious. The state itself, despite the claims in the OP, has comparatively little economic activity, ranking 34th in terms of population adjusted GDP.

...is likely why Texas is a leader among states in fraud, death on the job, and industrial explosions. It's the poster child for unregulated businesses, which is why it also leads the nation in the number of people uninsured.

[Atman]

39. ^^^ +1000

Bingo.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. So,...Texas takes in all the idiots and assholes who lost their licence elsewhere.

[Demo_Chris]

62. I'm sure there is a connection, though I suspect some of that is sheer size. nt

[First Speaker]

20. Congratulations on living in a civilized part of America...

...it isn't all that bad where I am, either...CT...but VT is special. I hope, if we ever get a Teabagger President, you guys don't go and do something silly like seceding, because we'd miss you too much...

[dionysus]

22. Vermont is Bad For Businesses (screwing the workers)...

to them good for business = low tax, high profit, fuck the proles.

[Brigid]

25. Business does not want a 4% unemployment rate . . .

For the whole country. That would mean they might actually have to start hiring people and raising wages.

[salib]

31. This is actually a good place for business

Yes, I live in Vermont. Yes, I moved from Texas to be here.

Another "intangible" but actually quite tangible difference with Vermont is basic social services. Health care is a good example, thanks in great part to Gov. Howard Dean. As has been pointed out with Obamacare, if health care is available outside of a particular job people are more likely to expand their horizons, and with it their contribution to society (whether that be through new small business, volunteerism, local government, artisans, specialty services, etc.). We have had the benefit of letting people "bloom" for a long time now. The state really reflects this.

But the concept of basic social services runs much deeper than health care in Vermont. Honestly, except for the fact that it is paid for by taxes, there is fairly strong consensus here, even with many conservatives, that these services are important and help maintain a solid society. Conservatives just wish it did not raise taxes.

Vermont was once the most Republican state in the nation, Calvin Coolidge even saying that he had his office on the floor above the only two Democrats in the state. It is not that these people disappeared or there was some sort of population boom (about the same as 100 years ago). Instead, it is agreement with all the crazy hippy liberals that it truly is important to have a strong community and to help each other.

Just recently, knowing nothing of "boiler lore" being new to temperatures below freezing (San Antonio has VERY few if any in a year) I called, rather nervously, the nearest heating and plumbing place which I found in Google "search nearby" as the furnace and thus boiler was out. We, the person who answered (likely his cell I would find out later) on a Sunday no less walked me through checking what should be checked and we got it going. This was more than professionalism. Thus was neighborly assistance.

Not surprisingly (Vermont is a small place), when looking for a pellet furnace solution to replace the propane one, I was given the same fellows' company's name as a local installer by the manufacturer. He came by and mentioned how he really wanted to move to Texas as the politics in Vermont did not suit him. Funny, nothing about Vermont really was the problem to him, just the people running the Government. Anyway, certainly did not get into it with him, but kept thinking about how liberal he really was in personal and non-personal relations. How he helped me out without any expectation of being paid back. How he was so enthusiastic about a technology (pellet furnace) that is promoted because it has a net zero carbon footprint. How the business benefited so greatly, and he pointed it out, from the state government efficiency programs.

Pointing to Vermont as a shining beacon for economic growth would be a huge mistake, I would guess. It has never really been a booming place. It has been a place of hardship. Seems people here leave for college and do not return quite a bit. At least until they are ready to retire, and then return. The school age population is dropping rather quickly (105,000 a few years ago and projected to be down to 92,000 soon).

But pointing to Vermont as a place where people value community, society and yes government (when it truly is "We the People&quot , again easier in a small state and also in New England), I think would be wise. I believe we will manage to cobble together a universal single-payer health care system, and it will indeed be an example to the rest of the U.S.

In the details of that system will be a glimpse as to why Vermont is what it is.

[erronis]

72. Thanks for a nice comment

From another Vermonter who moved up heah from DC to be back with real people.

[Liberal_Dog]

33. IIRC, Didn't Greenspan Say That It Was His Job..

to make workers feel insecure because then they would not be in position to demand higher wages/benefits?

So, I am sure that Greenspan would feel that Vermont workers are far too secure.

[Trust Buster]

37. Back to the future

In the 50's, 60's and 70's, wages rose steadily and the America people had the money to drive a robust consumer economy. Since then, we've seen our jobs outsourced to third world economies and the glut of labor created here by those greedy short term policies has been used against us to suppress wages. As a result, consumer demand can't get out of it's own way and businesses, despite carrying $2 trillion in cash on their balance sheets, won't expand without adequate consumer demand to justify said expansion. One would think, this is quite the pickle they put us in ? But not the oligarchy crowd. They think more supply is the answer. More tax cuts and even weaker regulations coupled with more corporate friendly trade deals.

Vermont stands as a shining example of what disposable income in the pockets of the worker can achieve. Like compound interest in a savings account, increased disposable income in the consumer's pocket creates a necessary multiplier effect necessary in a healthy economy despite what the oligarchy is currently shoveling.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. It's the CNBC mindset where the price of gas falling at the pump is BAD news.

[Atman]

43. Vermont also just voted in a state banking system

The state will now invest revenues into a state bank, where revenue will be returned in the form of investment into the state for infrastructure, economic development, etc. It is truly one of the most progressive states in the union, if not THE most progressive.

My retirement dream, really, is to move to Vermont, open an art studio/gallery, and become one of the old men who greet you at the ski resorts in return for free lift tickets. Yes, it's cold and it's remote. But it is one of the most beautiful places in America.

[adirondacker]

51. Take Back Verrmernt!

[naturallyselected]

54. Maine's idiot governor

LePage was in my Maine town, Brunswick, last week and gave a speech at the old Naval Air Station, which has been converted, with mixed success, to a business park.

He was trying to promote "Open for Business" zones (why do these wingnut idiots reduce everything to slogans and think it makes a difference?) in the state of Maine. He wants these zones to basically be exempt from those "onerous" labor and environmental laws that supposedly keep big business from investing here. For example, he wants these zones to be "right to work" (an incredibly obnoxious phrase, just like "pro-life", that our ... liberal ... media has been so happy to adopt) zones. What I heard was - businesses will not locate here unless they will be able to exploit workers and bypass environmental regulations in every way possible.

Like Vermont, Maine has an aging, white, population. It is also, like Vermont, a wonderful place to live and work. Like Vermont, it is very cold - to me, the primary reason big businesses show little interest.

A better comparison than Vermont to Texas would be Vermont (or Maine) to New Hampshire, a state that can be argued to be more business friendly. I can't imagine any New England state willing to make the environmental and labor concessions that Texas has, and that is one of the reasons I live here.

The takeaway message of your poet, for me, is that quality of life cannot be sacrificed to attract big business. As I listened to LePage last week, all I could think was, do we really want businesses in the state that will only come here if they can subvert labor and environmental regulations? My answer is simple and unequivocal - no.

But, the question of what can be done to make states like Vermont and Maine more attractive to "good" businesses remains. My son and my daighter-in-law, a mechanical engineer and a lawyer, are both unable to find work here, and I wish there was some way to keep young people like these in the state. I think both Vermont and Maine rely far too much on tourism as the primary industry. I think New Hampshire and Massachusetts have more answers for us than a state like Texas.

On the other hand, after any visit to Boston, as I leave the New Hampshire Turnpike, for the Maine Turnpike, I am so happy to be back in Maine. Sometimes it seems like the very things that keep Maine or Vermont from attracting even small businesses are the things that give us our great standard of living. I think that making Maine more friendly to starting a business would be a huge start. Promoting home-grown business instead of trying to lure businesses away from the Southeast (a futile venture, in my eyes) seems a more reasonable way to go.

[cali]

56. Maine's unemployment rate is now 6.2 percent. not at all bad but not

that close to Vermont's 4%. And my point wasn't to compare VT and TX but to say that Vermont's business climate isn't nearly the disaster that business groups claim. I did include that paragraph from the Washington Monthly article that compares VT and TX- perhaps I shouldn't have.

NH, btw has a higher unemployment rate than VT. It's 4.7%- and it has a supposedly better business environment.

Again, VT has lots of thriving small businesses and a growing high tech sector

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/back-on-the-bright-side-silicon-valley-in-vermont/280313/

[naturallyselected]

58. Agreed

In some ways it seems like it would be easier for Maine to attract more small business than Vermont because at least the SW part of the state is so close to Boston. And if just that part of the state is compared, the unemployment rates are comparable.

There are progressive ways to create and maintain a small business friendly environment. I don't know enough about Vermont to be able to say, here are the things Vermont does that Maine doesn't. But there may well be things we could learn from Vermont.

Maine and Vermont have one very negative thing in common. They are old, numbers 1 and 2 in the country, and this is a real problem for both states. Even with low unemployment rates, young professionals often have to leave to find work. Too much employment in both states revolves around tourism. As more young people leave, it becomes harder to attract business. Without professional jobs, more young people leave. This cycle needs to be short-circuited.

When I travel to places like California, I see young people, I see ethnic diversity, things seem more alive, more vibrant, and I think about how in Maine I just get used to seeing an old, white, population, and start thinking it is normal. Low unemployment or not, Maine and Vermont need to do something about this demographic problem, both for long-term economic viability, and our quality of life.

[geretogo]

63. reverse image

If FOX News and the Right Wing says Vermont is a terrible place to do business all you have to do is change to the
reverse of what they say and that will be the truth . One thing you can bank on with the RIGHT , ---they lie 24/7 .

[EC]

64. Well, Tom Delay once said that

the business model of the Marianna's is the one America should strive for. So I guess by that standard (which I believe is the Republican position)I guess Vermont is down right Socialist. I have a bench from Gardener's Supply that I mail ordered like 10 years ago and it is still in really good shape and my favorite garden seat.

[bvar22]

73. The most explosive growth, the Lowest Unemployment,...

...the MOST Upwardly Mobile Working Class, and the wealthiest Working Class the WORLD had ever seen
was experienced during a time of HIGH taxes on the RICH (over 90% top bracket).
That is HISTORY....not theory.
We KNOW what works.
We have BEEN there and DONE that.


I say, "Lets do THAT again!"

[DeSwiss]

74. Glad to be the 100th K&R!!!

- [font size=5]VERMONT FOR PRESIDENT![/font]

[jmowreader]

79. Those ratings are bullshit anyway

The states rated the best for business are the ones with the lowest taxes and the least regulations. Which is why Virginia, North Dakota and Utah are numbers one through three.

[ReRe]

81. K&R

Doesn't Vermont have universal healthcare now? If I wasn't so darn old and averse to cold weather, I'd move up there. Sounds like the kind of state I'd like to live in, where they value their citizens.

[nikto]

83. I wonder of Vermont could be a model for upstate NY, with its economic depression

Upstate NY has great potential for tourism and "local flavor", though, IMO.