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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHere's what I could never figure out about Fred Phelps
To me he will always be that vile man who lead that vile organization of hate - Westboro Baptist.
But what baffles me was that Phelps wasn't always that evil of a man. Back in the 60s he was a pretty big Civil Rights Lawyers going after many of the Jim Crow laws that were on the books. I've read where he did it just because that's where the money was at or perhaps maybe he really did care about the civil rights of minorities of this country.
I mean this guy even endorsed Clinton back in 1992. (He didn't in 96 because of Clinton's movement towards gay rights).
So what the hell happened to this guy who went from a pretty good dude during the 1960 Civil Rights movement to the giant asshole with his band of haters protesting military funerals and other events with this 'God hates F**s' signs.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was like whoa. What happened to the guy? He was so hateful!
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Based on the work he did during the Civil Rights era of the 1960s. Even if he was just doing the work for the money he still made changes that made the world a better place for minorities.
Instead he died as one of the most vile and hated men in this country.
derby378
(30,252 posts)Mz Pip
(27,456 posts)He took his family with him. That's what baffles me. Yeah, he could have become mentally ill, or like my aunt's husband, had a stoke that made him paranoid about weird things. I could understand that. However, he had family that were just as hateful as he.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)but enough followed him blindly
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)but it was ROFL producing. I was #3
On Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:56 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
I think a few realized he was bat-shit crazy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4698796
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
language---no place for expletives!
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:00 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What the Fuck! - this is a frivolous alert
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Is this piece of shit alert some kind of fucking joke?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You have got to be kidding with this alert!
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Explanation: Why the fuck was this alerted on? What's up with this bullshit?
God damn it. What a waste of my fucking time.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: no place for expletives?!?! fuck that.
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LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Someone alerted on my post? Was it because I used bat-shit? I thought my post was pretty obvious. I know where several members of the Phelp family had left the compound because they realized just how bonkers Dad and his cult religion were.
Here's a good article about 2 of the granddaughters
http://gawker.com/5982310/two-of-god-hates-fags-preachers-granddaughters-have-left-the-westboro-baptist-church
markpkessinger
(8,409 posts)Nate had the good sense to get out at the stroke of midnight on his 18th birthday, and some other family members have left as well. I've included below an excerpt of an interview that appeared on Salon.com a while back that you might find interesting. By the sounds of things, Phelps was always a hate-filled tyrant.
[font size=5]Son of a bigot[/font]
His dad founded the infamous Westboro Baptist Church. Nate Phelps is dedicated to reversing that legacy of hate
DICK GORDON
< . . . . >
What was your childhood like?
It was a very strict environment. We were isolated from the community, not so much physically, as ideologically. We heard from the time we were very young that we were to be separated from the world, and we were unique. We were Gods chosen ones. On one hand we had this sense that we were better than everybody else, and on the other hand we had this clear awareness that we were different from everyone else. That cut both ways. And then all of that ideology was supported and promoted with violence and psychological I dont know if you want to call it abuse, but you know those lessons we learned in that religious environment were such that we were constantly anxious and frightened for whether or not we were going to upset God.
How did your father explain that to you? That you were one of Gods chosen ones and yet he could mistreat you? He was able to justify using verses out of the Bible. That was a major criteria for him. If he could find an excuse for it, then it was OK to do it, because God gave him permission. As far as how he justified the idea that we were different from the rest of the world, he made much of the ideas that he found in the Bible about the nature of what God expected of us, that extreme Calvinist ideology that is at the cornerstone of their campaign. The fact that other groups had it wrong or got this or that doctrine wrong was proof that God didnt find favor with them. As far as the physical violence, thats a fairly common idea that exists in fundamentalist Christianity, that the husband is the head of the house and has absolute authority and has the right to bring his wife and children into submission if they arent.
And when you talk about the physical violence was it something that was spontaneous or routine? How do you remember? It was both. I mean there were some things that you just knew if he found out about it there was gonna be trouble. There was also this tendency to explode without any warning and that actually was far more destructive in the long run because you just never knew, and thats more terrifying than cause-and-effect.
Did he use his belt or a cane, what was his ? When we were younger it was a barber strap. That thing got so shredded at the ends that it would wrap around the sides of our legs and tear the skin. It was kind of like a cat o nine tails. When I was about 8 or 9 he introduced us to a Mattock handle, which is a farming instrument or tool that you use to pull up roots, and its got an axe head on one end and a hoe head on the other end. Its big. You know, take a baseball bat, add maybe 30 percent to that.
< . . . . >
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)but it looks like it's now down. This is a site with an exclusive interview with Nate:
"Stopping the Hate"
http://stoppingthehate.com/News-Article1302_Nate_Phelps_Estranged_Son_Of_Fred_Phelps_Speaks_Out_Publicly.htm
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Good for him for breaking away from that and going on to lead his own life. I'm sure he has mixed feelings about the passing of his father. It probably stirs up a lot of the stuff that happened to him as a child.
markpkessinger
(8,409 posts). . . And regardless of the state of a person's relationship with his or her parents, losing them is tough.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)When he first started out, Jim Jones was a communist who fought to have an integrated church and preached about racial harmony...
derby378
(30,252 posts)After he attracted all those converts from Father Divine's Peace Mission, he and his thugs kept a pretty tight leash on the church.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,943 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and was starting to make a recovery late in life. Remember he was excommunicated from his own church for trying to guide them into a more tolerant organization. It happens to people. I do not think we will ever know all the details to be honest.
markpkessinger
(8,409 posts). . . the greater 'tolerance' he was calling for was only between rival factions of Westboro Baptist Church, not for the congregation to become more tolerant as an organization towards those outside of itself. It's kind of amazing to think that a man could think he could preach hate for nearly 60 years and not have it come around and bite him in the ass eventually!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)he did, (even if in a very small way) very late in life.
He is one of those mysteries since that hate should have never left the local area, if at all.
Siwsan
(26,315 posts)I've been reading some interviews with his son, Nate. According to him, Fred was always evil, and simply abused and exploited what/whom ever he could, from family to complete strangers. That church was his ultimate schtick to make money, via litigation, and served as a good avenue for spewing his hatred.
One can only guess if when actually facing death, he had a 'come to Jesus' moment and did some back peddling. That's supposedly one of the reasons he was excommunicated.
That whole family needs to be isolated on some far away island. Obviously they would eventually turn on each other and, hopefully, self-eliminate.
JI7
(89,283 posts)they seemed very much like media whores.
and this could be why he wanted to change towards the end as he was getting closer to his dying day thinking he needed to make up to go to heaven.
Terra Alta
(5,158 posts)and found he could get much more attention hating gays and protesting funerals than he could fighting for civil rights. Maybe the wrong kind of attention, but attention nonetheless.
I think he has always been a horrible human being. Some of his estranged children have told how he beat them, and even his wife. The world is a much better place now without him in it, now if only his evil spawn would join him.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)I don't know who touched Phelps inappropriately, or when he became troubled by same-sex attraction, but his issues did not lie in the outside world.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)that his one prejudice was overwhelming.
He was a darkly bitter homophobe.
Thing is, I've heard some horror stories of domestic abuse, so maybe he had an actual mental illness that didn't manifest until a certain point in time.
I do hope his cult flounders, but apparently he hasn't been a part of the organization since earlier in 2013, so maybe he trained his little haters well.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)He exacted revenge on a court reporter for not having a transcript ready for him by putting her on the stand for a week and berating her about being a slut.
No lie. That memory is from when I worked with SPLC and had to know the ins and outs of a lot of hate groups.
It always stuck in my head because I often wondered if that was his snapping point compared to his earlier civil rights work.
May he rot.
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)http://openjurist.org/662/f2d/649/phelps-v-kansas-supreme-court
He agreed to cease federal practice in a disciplinary action settlement a decade later
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That's the scientific answer.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Good question, seems to be a 180...I wonder what caused it?
Archae
(46,369 posts)He would (not in public, naturally,) denigrate his clients, and charge them exorbitant lawyer fees.
He made a LOT of money off civil rights lawsuits, that never changed anything but made Fred Phelps lots of ca$h.
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)Seems a little too fringe for me, but the extremism of WBC's rhetoric does seem to be way over the top.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)He read it. He believed it. He was absolutely convinced that the Truth was on his side. Fred's theology shaped his social views, not the other way around.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Jesus wasn't about hating and judgement. He was about love and treating everyone the way we would want ourselves to be treated.
Sure there was hate in the bible but the faith is called Christianity because we should be following what Jesus does - and Jesus doesn't hate.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I haven't been able to reconcile myself to the bits that absolutely fly in the face of what is good and right. Fred Phelps was saved at the age of 16 and became a preacher not too long after. His faith was born in fundamentalism and literalism.
He established his church before he got his law degree. He studied the Bible diligently. I know that it is possible for some to explain away and reconcile themselves with those bits that give me such trouble. I think that Fred did not and could not do that. That is the certainly the case for many who call themselves Christian. Because God said so is good enough.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)The only reason did the god hates fags thing is to incite folks to attack him so he could sue them.
It was all a work.
If you are going to be a mark, be a smart mark.
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)as a civil rights attorney. He says his father didn't believe blacks were equal to whites, and often insulted blacks out of earshot. "They would come into his office and after they left, he would talk about how stupid they were and call them dumb niggers," Phelps says ...
'Most-hated,' anti-gay preacher once fought for civil rights
By John Blake, CNN
May 14, 2010 9:46 a.m. EDT
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)... Forget the American Bald Eagle. Since June 23, 1994, the only fitting emblem for the Great Seal of the United States Judiciary is this beast
Just call me: Yo Honuh!!!
Here Come De Judge!!!
--Text surrounding a racist caricature of an African-American female judge, The Federal Judiciary: A Menagerie of Demonic, Libidinous, unclean Beasts: A Curse from God Upon an Apostate Nation, WBC flier, November 28, 1996
Me ______________. Me lots smarter now. Me be Deputy Mayor
This crowd could dumb down the Western Hemisphere.
--Text surrounding a drawing of a gorilla, "Wagnon's 'Friendlier Topeka,'" WBC flier, June 13, 1997. The named individual is an African-American city council member in Topeka, Kansas
http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/wbc/wbc-on-blacks.html?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=3&item=WBC
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)had a homosexual affair that he could not come to grips with. Self loathing led to it.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)He was a democrat for the longest time and then he probably just went independent.
He endorsed Clinton at fundraiser in Kansas back in 1992.
Don't get me wrong, I think many republicans are just as you say - they put down homosexuality because they probably are homosexuals themselves.
But as much as I do not like Republicans I do not hate them so much that I would identify Fred Phelps as one of them.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)no matter what letter he would put after his name. It is still in name only and the same problem, I think.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)He attacked hundreds of funerals in all 50 states for years without being criticized by anyone outside the LGBT community. The reaction of the 'faith community' was 'don't you dare lump us all in with him'. They had zero concern for his victims, no one in the country did until he started going after Veterans.....
To this day if a man wears the right outfit when speaking anti gay hate, he is considered a progressive hero of the people.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Here's a great read: http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/fred-phelps-has-died
He made a fortune on all those cases, said Joe Douglas Jr, the black former Topeka fire chief and long-time civil rights activist. All the businesses hated him because he was so successful. I think if they discriminated against Martians, he would have done those cases. He could make money.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)Texasgal
(17,049 posts)even while backing some of those issues. He was a nasty homophobe, his background and stance on other issues means nothing compared to the hate he has against LGBT.
Ilsa
(61,710 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Until fairly recently in historic terms, JFK or so. He's a holdover from that era.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)the times they are a changing for sure
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Exactly.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)The following is a very long read, but well worth it: http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/atohate.htm
EXCERPT:
The hallmark of a devoted civil rights reformer who is also a lawyer ought to be a record of court decisions that, taken together, create legal precedents influencing future cases and, therefore, future society. Sadly, close inspection of Phelps' civil rights record shows he followed the same greedy star he did in the rest of his cases. Lawsuits were filed, but rarely went to trial-and even more rarely reached a decision. Instead, Phelps practiced what he always had: 'take-the-money-and run'.
A settlement out-of-court has zero impact on legal precedent. Both sides continue to maintain they were right, only one party pays the other a little money to shut up and go away. In what are probably Fred Phelps' three most famous civil rights cases, he did exactly that each time. In the multi-million dollar Kansas Power and Light case, Phelps filed a class-action on behalf of 2,000 blacks who had accused the utility of discrimination in their hiring and promotion practices.
Fred settled out of court for the following: *Two black employees received $12,000 each. *$100,000 was paid out to the other plaintiffs. If one counts the original 2,000, that made for 50 bucks each.
*Phelps scooped $85,000 in attorney's fees and expenses. *KP&L admitted no wrongdoing and suffered no coercion to alter its allegedly racist policies. KP&L officials claimed they'd settled to avoid an expensive legal battle. "It's unprecedented what we just did," the pastor crowed.
Certainly it left no precedent. In the American Legion suit, which stemmed from a police raid on a Topeka post with a largely black membership, again Phelps settled for small cash outside of court.
Perhaps his most publicized case was the Evelyn Johnson suit, touted as son of Brown vs. Board of Education, the landmark school desegregation case filed against another Topeka USD 501 school in 1955. Brown vs. Board of Education, along with the Selma bus case, became the basis for the civil rights movement in the sixties. In 1973, Evelyn Johnson's aunt and legal guardian, Marlene Miller, sue the Unified School District, number 501, a state entity which contained the Topeka area public schools.
Miller, represented by Fred Phelps, claimed the district had failed to comply with the ruling in Brown vs. Board of Education. It had not provided the same educational opportunities and environments to the black neighborhoods as it had to the white areas of the city. Phelps boosted Miller's complaint into a 200 million dollar class action suit. When that was tossed out, he pressed on with the individual action on behalf of Mrs. Johnson. In 1979, the pastor agreed to settle out of court with the district's insurance company. Phelps accepted the company's condition the settlement be sealed from public scrutiny to discourage others who might have been inclined to sue for the same reasons. Hardly the act of a hard-knuckled civil rights reformer.
yuiyoshida
(41,869 posts)HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)So fuck that guy.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Where he's going, the ax handles him.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)I shouldn't laugh, I suppose, but that is too, too funny!
Response to LynneSin (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Heidi
(58,237 posts)I do not disagree with the essence of your post. Good morning, 1Independent!
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)It's a valid insight to a red state and an opinion I enjoyed reading
ProfessorGAC
(65,328 posts)There is nothing in your post that even justifies an alert.
iemitsu
(3,888 posts)If Southerners use this as justification for attitudes or behaviors then they ought to re-evaluate their motives.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)If you want your business to get more business, it helps if the church leaders think you are one of them. They act as advisers to many of the businesses. Deals and "discounts" get made.
So from what I see, there is a merger of church, state, and business.
And if you aren't part of the right religious groups, your business isn't going to do as well as it would otherwise.