It's very hard to admit you've overlooked something SO SIMPLE for so long, but I must do this

[derby378]

And I have to give major respect to redqueen for helping me see the light.

Most folks on DU, including some that I've just been having a heated debate with, called rape a crime of violence. I called it a crime of power, while still acknowledging violence was often a component in rape.

And this is the point where I get to tell my fellow DUers that, in fact, I am a dumbass. And that you were right all along.

It all revolves around the situation of a woman who is passed out drunk and the stupid frat boy who takes advantage of her while she's unconscious. This is rape, I asserted, but is it violent? And in my private conversation with redqueen, she made some very simple observations that have humbled me.

I approached the concept of violence in rape from the perspective of the acts that accompanied the rape, but failed to see the forest because I was too busy looking at the trees. If I were to stumble upon you while you were passed out unconscious and, for the hell of it, delivered a swift kick to your ass, you might wake up later and not feel a thing, much less remember the ass-kicking. But it doesn't change the fact that I committed a violent act.

If ass-kicking is a violent act, then why is inserting an unwanted body part into you not? The answer: it is.

And that's why I feel like a chump. But apparently I needed to, and that's why I offer a heartfelt mea culpa.

When women get raped, they are hurt, even if there are no bruises or marks left, even if they feel no actual physical discomfort afterwards. I have always realized this. But severity of the attack does not make it any less of an attack, which is why rape is violence even if you're passed out and can't feel a thing.

There, I said it. Rape is violence. And now suddenly I have a twinge of PC in me. Damn you, DUers!

And thank you.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. No my friend

Thank you!

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. A chump is someone who sticks is someone who ignores the private conversation.

A chump is someone who continues to beat the same drum even as they see the point of the "other side..."

YOU are NOT a chump.

[CFLDem]

3. We humbly accept your graciousness.

[In_The_Wind]

4. Rape is violence!

You are not a chump.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Let me add a little complexity

It is both. It is a violent act, but it is also also about power and power relationships.

So both of you were half right.

Now let me put this in the trash, because I tend to ignore these discussions here. There are multiple reasons for that.

[Heidi]

6. Kick!

[UtahLib]

7. I'm pretty sure you are not a chump,

..but thank you for humbly expressing a wonderful example of your own personal growth.

[Lunacee_2013]

8. K&R.

[Mariana]

9. That's what rape culture does to people. nt.

[seabeyond]

10. "stupid frat boy" that would be a rapist. not a "stupid frat boy". you have to get beyond that,

also

i know rapist is such a harsh word and "stupid frat boy" makes it gentler. but.... you are separating a "stupid frat boy" from a rape defining it in this manner.

this is all a mix of rape culture.

he is a .... rapist. not merely "stupid frat boy"

[Lucky Luciano]

14. That is a fair point.

It sounds like you are saying that calling a rapist a "stupid frat boy" is like calling a rape a "youthful indiscretion."

Maybe that sounds like an extreme analogy, but I don't think it is too far off.

[seabeyond]

20. I think a good example is how people and media say.... He had sex with. Instead of he raped. Nt

[cui bono]

25. Good point. n/t

[Iris]

37. And....not all stupid frat boys are rapists n/t

[Luminous Animal]

11. Thank you for posting this!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. "violate" and "violent" both have the same root from Latin "vis" = "strength". nt

[pablo_marmol]

13. Kudos derby378

My sister has been sexually assaulted more than once, though never penetrated.

Without going into details, one of the dirtbags did something quite disgusting. She kept it a secret for years, because she knew it would enrage and hurt her family members. She was right - when she eventually told me, it was very painful and infuriating.

This happened over 30 years ago now, and I still feel the urge to return his violence with some violence of my own.

[derby378]

21. Pablo, I am so sorry about this

I think that's one of the worst aspects of rape or any form of sexual assault - the act itself exerts pressure on the victim to cocoon and keep quiet about it. It's a psychological hand grenade.

[Skittles]

32. I would have taken a baseball bat to that bastard

if I know who it is that is a walking dead man

[Ghost in the Machine]

33. And I would be right behind you, giving him an UNSCHEDULED ASS KICKING!!!

My niece was molested when she was 10 years old. The guy who did it was found in the woods dead... from 19 self-inflicted stab wounds. Imagine that!

Ghost

[GliderGuider]

15. Nothing beats growing a little in public!

[Iris]

38. Yes. This is classic DU. Or at least the DU I remember.

You know. The place where your idea and beliefs might be challenged to the point of being changed rather than defended at all costs.

[LumosMaxima]

16. Good for you.

I love it when I have breakthroughs like this & suddenly understand something that I was missing before, but I hate to admit to them. It takes guts.

[pnwmom]

17. derby378, thank you for this. I think you probably opened a lot of eyes today. n/t

[wryter2000]

18. You were already coming from a good place

Rape isn't any one thing, imho. Power is one of those things. Another is violence. It's people who think it's only about sex who are the problem. They're likely to say stupid things, like the guy couldn't control himself or "what was she wearing?"

[redqueen]

19. Well like I said, rape culture (and the ubiquitous patriarchal values it promotes) clouds our view..

so that what should be simple, clear concepts are muddled and made to seem confusing... so you have no reason to feel like a chump and you are most certainly no dumbass.

Thanks for this.

[derby378]

22. And thank you.

[freshwest]

23. Thanks, derby, for being brave enough to change. n/t

[Whisp]

24. It's awesome to learn new things, isn't it?

[cui bono]

26. So great of you to post this! Very honorable.

Also glad you came around on this subject. An open mind is a great thing to have, and ensures that you are actually not a dumbass.

[Bobbie Jo]

27. Wow, nicely done.

[Warpy]

28. Thank you. A lot of us get discouraged because the hardest thing to change

is someone else's stinkin' thinkin' that has been programmed by the larger culture and reinforced for years.

You just showed us there are people out there who can catch on.

Thank you.

[steve2470]

29. You're a big person to admit this "in public"

We all should be so open-minded to learn and grow. That, IMHO, is what DU is all about. We learn constantly here if we have open minds. The BEST opinion is an informed educated one.

Congrats again

[hfojvt]

30. so only men can rape?

"If ass-kicking is a violent act, then why is inserting an unwanted body part into you not? The answer: it is."

Yet if a male is raped by a female, then there is not necessarily an insertion of any body part. In fact the opposite.

So now the male is passed out and a female inserts his body part into hers. Is that a violent act?

I am not seeing the violence there.

So now I ask the question. If it is NOT violent when the female does it to the male, then why does the same act get categorized as violent when the male does it to the female?

I think it is a tough case to argue that the female to unconscious male is a violent act, but I also think you MUST argue that it is violent both ways or neither way. That if you only argue the violence in ONE direction then you are claiming or assuming that there is something inherently vile about the male sex organ.

[Ecumenist]

34. Well, the fact that HE ISN'T ABLE TO MAKE A CHOICE TO HAVE HIS BODY PART INSERTED

then, YES it is an act of violence or Assault. PERIOD.

[hfojvt]

35. so something is violent because you say so?

It doesn't fit the definition of violence

But TYPING IN ALL CAPS, DOES!

Violent -

1. Involving or using great physical force
2a. intense
vehement
passionate
furious
b. vivid

[yodermon]

39. violence & violate have the same root.

If a man, or anyone else, is violated, then an act of violence has been committed against them.

The concept does not begin and end with the dictionary definition alone.

[Ecumenist]

45. LOL! I wonder how you would feel if someone RAPED you, Male or Female.....

and if you think that the fact that I am both VEHEMENT & PASSIONATE in my disgust with someone who seems intent on minimising the damage that sexual assault on someone who DOES NOT WANT NOR IS INCAPABLE of agreeing to engage is SAID SEXUAL activities bothers you then, HEY, you are CORRECT.... AND? Does this cause you stress? Interesting concept considering that when people who try to tell you what RAPE is and what it does, ( including those of US, who are SURVIVORS), you try to convince us that we are in the wrong and you're not. I KNOW men who have been sexually assaulted by men and women , while sober & intoxicated and the devastation is no less real than a woman who is beaten and raped by a stranger.... Funny, but they agree with what you've been told but which you insist on trying to insult the LIFE EXPERIENCE of those of us who have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.....PROBLEM?

[cui bono]

36. Why are you coming in here and sullying up this thread?

This isn't about you or men's rights. This is derby's public acknowledgment of having seen the light about something.

[hfojvt]

41. I didn't say anything about me

or about men's rights.

I saw a flaw in the logic, and asked about it.

And the "seeing the light" seems to involve a half-perspective.

[cui bono]

43. Yeah, like I said, this is not about men's rights.

So I ask again, why are you in here sullying up the thread?

There's no flaw in the logic. The poster is speaking about himself and his revelation that if a woman is raped while passed out it is indeed a violent act. The end.

You just have to be contrary and work your agenda to bring up men's rights in even though it has no logical place in here.

[seabeyond]

40. 98.7% of rape is by males. you wanted to argue the other 1.3% as being significant in this

discussion? have at it.

[hfojvt]

42. 98.7%? Really?

My 2001 SAUS shows 383,000 for the number of rapes/sexual assaults in 1999. With 141,000 rapes, 60,000 attempted rapes and 182,000 sexual assaults.

And shows a victimization rate of .4 per 1,000 for males and 3.0 per 1,000 for females. If females are 55% of the population, that would make males 10% of all sexual assault victims.

A rate of .4 per thousand, with about 98 million males in this country, would still make for almost 39,000 male victims each year. Or 390,000 over a decade.

So they don't matter because they are male, or because 390,000 is such a teeny, tiny little number? Or perhaps because most of them were "only" sexaully assaulted?

But I am not talking about males as much as I am talking about the logic.

[gollygee]

44. She said that 98.7% of rapists are men, not that 98.7% of rape victims are women

But you seem to be confusing those two things.

[Ecumenist]

46. Seems to bother him that someone has seen the light on something too many of us

know about all too well. It seems to be intentional, his conflating and confusing. I wonder how he would feel if it was something HE ACTUALLY experienced?

[Gravitycollapse]

47. "so only men can rape?" - How in the fuck did you find that message in the OP?

[cyberswede]

48. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Feminists on DU have long maintained that their goal is to educate people about the nuances of topics that may be overlooked by some folks.

I'm glad such was the case for you.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. good on you. really does look good on you, derby378